The Lord be praised

Published: November 29, 2012
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The writer is a columnist, a former major of the Pakistan Army and served as press secretary to Benazir Bhutto 
kamran.shafi@tribune.com.pk

The writer is a columnist, a former major of the Pakistan Army and served as press secretary to Benazir Bhutto [email protected]

Let me start by condemning the ugly and threatening posters against Gen Kayani by the Hizbut Tahrir whose anti-democracy, violent creed I just cannot abide; and about which I have written much in the 19 years, since 1993 when I first discovered this hate-spewing group while on a posting in London.

In the same breath, let me condemn the alleged ‘kidnapping’ and ‘disappearance’ of one Saad Jagranvi, a member of this organisation, on December 27, from Lahore. I am as against ‘disappearances’ as I am against hate speech, violence, religious bigotry, and hypocrisy. If Jagranvi has a case to answer let him answer it in an open court of law.

Before we go any further, let me make another appeal to the various ‘agencies’ that disappear people to give up this practice forthwith and to proceed legally against those in their custody in the ‘detention centres’ in Fata and in ‘safe houses’ as their prisons (located in various urban areas all over the country including Islamabad the Beautiful) are called. If there is unavoidable delay in processing their cases, their next of kin must be informed of their well-being, and meetings arranged so their loved ones can meet them.

But back to the Hizbut Tahrir and its sister organisation Al-Muhajiroun now banned in the UK (and their various cousins), both headed at one time by the angry and twisted Omar Bakri Mohammad, a Syrian immigrant to the United Kingdom (now exiled to Lebanon), who very quickly learnt to use the freedoms granted to citizens in free and democratic countries to spread vitriol and hate against his hosts, the kufaar, among who he and his ilk freely chose to live. And, mark, got citizenship rights through various guiles and strategems!

And by one Anjem Choudary, born of Pakistani parents who were economic migrants to the UK, another beauty who, after a stint at the Hizbut Tahrir, co-founded Al-Muhajiroun with Bakri. At its demise when it was banned by the British government for actually running terrorist camps, he formed Al Gharabaa which, too, was banned. Choudary then founded Islam4UK and became its ‘spokesman’.

This organisation too was banned after it foolishly threatened to protest the paying of respects to the war dead by the townspeople of Wooton Bassett located as it was near RAF Lyneham, the RAF’s main transport base in Wiltshire. Since the hearses carrying the coffins of the servicemen and women killed in Iraq and Afghanistan passed through the High Street, it had become a custom for the people to line the street in silent homage.

I was in England at the time, very near Lyneham at that, and well remember the justified anger and disgust of the locals at this brazen attempt to play with other people’s feelings. Particularly from those who — and their extended families — live on the dole in the UK; in council housing; their children going to state schools; their parents and grandparents looked after by the free NHS. Talk of biting the hand that feeds you.

Anyway, the feelings of the entire country were so roused, even Muslim groups and organisation roundly condemning this stupidity on television and in the newspapers, that there was a great danger of the public peace being disturbed. Even the prime minister went public with his criticism. Amid the uproar he created, Mr Choudary quite cravenly backed down.

“We come here to civilise people, get them to come out of the darkness and injustice into the beauty of Islam”, says Anjem Choudary. Yet the network of the violent organisations, banned and present that he and Bakri have headed at one time or another also say: “Live among the kufaar but do not make friends with them; live among the kufaar but do not warm yourselves at their (camp) fires; live among the kufaar but kill them when you can”. The free heating in NHS hospitals that warms granny’s aching old bones is not a campfire, what? Can you believe any of this hypocrisy, reader?

We were thus spared the presence of these two hate-mongers at a so-called ‘Sharia for Pakistan conference’ that was announced to be held at Lal Masjid today after the Khateeb of the mosque announced he had nothing to do with the project that had the following agenda: 1) The Kufr Constitution of Pakistan; 2) Declaration of Fatwa on Malala; 3) MA Jinnah, The Traitor of Islam; 4) The Apostasy of Asif Ali Zardari; and 5) The Transformation of Pakistan under the Sharia.

The poster that appeared in Islamabad and on the Internet was something to behold. In the background, the Quaid’s mausoleum had a sniper’s cross-hairs on it; in the foreground the Quaid; President Zardari; and Malala were seen engulfed in flames. And Anjem Choudary says he is in the UK to ‘civilise’ people! Disgusting creature.

However, all’s well that ends well, and thank the Lord we don’t have to see the ugly spectacle of this cursed conference. Let us then end on a light note, but which holds a warning for those who leap before thinking of the consequences.

As the story goes, when Progressive Papers Limited (PPL) was run by Mian Iftikharuddin and Syed Ameer Hussain Shah was its Managing Director; Faiz Ahmed Faiz was Chief Editor and Mazhar Ali Khan, Editor of its flagship English paper the Pakistan Times, someone mischievously wrote on the bathroom wall: “Anwar Ali khood aik cartoon hein”. Anwar Ali Sahib was the legendary cartoonist at the paper whose ‘Nanna’ used to appear on the front page every day.

An angry Anwar Sahib went to the MD and demanded that every person working on his floor should be summoned and asked to write the offending words on a piece of paper and he would then identify the culprit. Shah Sahib replied that whilst very few people might have read the graffiti which he would order removed immediately, why ask 60 more people to write the offending words so that even those who might not have read them would know what was written in the bathroom? But Anwar Sahib insisted.

The front page of The News (November 29) carries in bold letters the bad names used for “respected and revered personalities in the judiciary” in the press/electronic media. Akin to what happened at the Pakistan Times so many years ago, no?

Published in The Express Tribune, November 30th, 2012.

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Reader Comments (59)

  • Lose Dhoti
    Nov 29, 2012 - 10:59PM

    Lala ji jo likh do gay chaap jai ga. Give us a break and write something worthwhile,meaningful and substantial. A substandard piece going by the standards you have set for yourself.

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  • sabi
    Nov 29, 2012 - 11:14PM

    It is said that face is the picture of heart.Seeing at the faces of these religious bigots there is no doubt left that these people have very ugly hearts.They are not religious but money makers and hypocrits.It is pity people still fall in their trap.

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  • Lala Gee
    Nov 29, 2012 - 11:34PM

    “let me make another appeal to the various ‘agencies’ that disappear people to give up this practice forthwith and to proceed legally against those in their custody in the ‘detention centres’ in Fata and in ‘safe houses’ as their prisons”

    Since the current democratic government came into power, the problem of terrorism has increased many folds, but this government is so busy in plundering and graft that she didn’t find time to enact any legislation in 4-1/2 years to deal with the issue. This kind of extraordinary circumstances required enactment of specific laws to deal with the menace of terrorism, as many other countries did, but look at the ‘couldn’t care less’ attitude of the present civilian government. Now what resort agencies have? Nobody dare to witness against the caught terrorists in open courts, and the courts are bound by the present laws to release them in the absence of solid proofs. Had this been so easy to deal with terrorism cases, there was no need for Guantanamo Bay prison. So, only blaming agencies is not a wise thing to do, rather it is the government who must be criticized for their ineptness and inaction.

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  • Parvez
    Nov 29, 2012 - 11:35PM

    On the Hizbut Tahrir and radical Islam in the UK, I read a brilliant book ‘ The Islamist ‘ by Ed Husain (Mohammad Mahbub Husain) in which he tells his own story of joining and then leaving this organisation, makes for excellent reading on the subject.
    One interesting part is where the author indicates that their radical movement was unknown in Pakistan untill they introduced it here from the UK. Makes one think, does it not ?

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  • Lala Gee
    Nov 29, 2012 - 11:47PM

    “Anyway, the feelings of the entire country were so roused, even Muslim groups and organisation roundly condemning this stupidity on television and in the newspapers, that there was a great danger of the public peace being disturbed. Even the prime minister went public with his criticism.”

    In no way I am condoning Mr. Chaudhry’s actions, but where are his rights of “Freedom of Thought” and “Freedom of Expression” as tirelessly advocated by western leaders in case of Sulaman Rushdi, Sweedish Cartoonist, and recenly American Filmmaker?

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  • faraz
    Nov 29, 2012 - 11:48PM

    HT symbolizes the intellectual bankruptcy of Muslims intelligentsia. The educatied youth that forms HT doesn’t even know the difference between dynastic monarchy and the ‘caliphate’ which ended with death of 3rd caliph. Delusions at such mass scale are shocking

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  • Happens
    Nov 30, 2012 - 12:12AM

    @Lala Gee

    Yes, that Free speech and expression has saved him .You have freedom of speech , but you don’t have freedom to physically attack someone or to apply so called Jihad against someone.The way I praise Mr.Salamn Rushdie or Sweedish cartoonist , similarly you have rights to praise even Taliban or Osama.But to go on a rampage is not the option.Recommend

  • gp65
    Nov 30, 2012 - 12:45AM

    @Lala Gee: “n no way I am condoning Mr. Chaudhry’s actions, but where are his rights of “Freedom of Thought” and “Freedom of Expression””

    He has rights to freedom of expression but inciting people to murder crosses the threshold and becomes hate speech which is not permissible. Anjem asks for the kaafirs to be killed which is hate speech. In the schedule they were discussing fatwas on Malala and Zardari. Again that does not come within ambit of free speech.

    Your rights end where another person’s rights beign. No one ha s a right to not be offended, hence if someone offends you, they are not violating your right which is what was the case with the cartoons and video.

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  • numbersnumbers
    Nov 30, 2012 - 12:47AM

    I am puzzled by the strange world of Pakistan! On one hand an individual can be “disappeared” by the Deep State (for political reasons I assume) with no recourse of an open public trial, sometimes never to be seen alive again. On the other hand, terrorists or militants when arrested are granted trials, usually followed by release due to “lack of evidence” by a frightened judge, or if somehow (rarely) convicted, sent eventually to a minimum security jail where they are sprung without the “guards” firing a shot!

    Would it be too much to ask for the two above “scenarios” to be switched for the good of the country, or at least for the near 40,000 Pakistanis slaughtered by these TTP/Terrorists over the last decade! Just asking of course.

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  • Tribal Manto
    Nov 30, 2012 - 1:24AM

    All these quasi-religious organisations have no qualms let alone feeling ashamed for misguiding and distorting the religion in the name of hatred. but It is beyond me why these democratic and well-advanced countries let them to spread their virulent indoctrination of their young generations, in the first place.

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  • Abdullah
    Nov 30, 2012 - 1:43AM

    From what I read. Omar Bakri was expelled from HT and Anjum Chaudry too is not part of HT.

    Once people leave organizations then you cant condemn their original party for their acts. From the same token many BNP were initially conservative party members…

    From my experience with interacting with HT – they are peaceful political intellectual party and only argue for their case via speech and politics.

    Instead of banning them as dictator Musharraf did they should be debated openly and these extra judicial kidnapping must stop as they only prove their point that they cant be debated hence banned.

    It is not just HT – many in Pakistan see Kiyani collusion with US with disgust. Their members are Pakistani citizens hence the right must be afforded to them to account the government.

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  • saleh
    Nov 30, 2012 - 2:01AM

    by looking at the comments one wonders who these people even represent…

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  • saleh
    Nov 30, 2012 - 2:04AM

    @Abdullah:
    finally someone talking sense here

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  • Mirza
    Nov 30, 2012 - 5:30AM

    Another great Op Ed in the ET, written by KS Sahib. It is great news that the bad apples of foreign countries are not finding the refuge in Pakistan at least openly. Both the Pakistani and UK govt should not allow these hate mongers to return to their countries. Only because these hate mongers call themselves Muslims does not give them a license or visa to spread their hateful message. On the contrary we have to eliminate the safe havens to stop the presence of terrorists on Pak soil.

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  • Author
    Nov 30, 2012 - 6:24AM

    @Abdullah: What is so ‘peaceful’ and ‘intellectual’ and ‘political’ about asking an army to rebel? Can armies rebel ‘peacefully’?Recommend

  • khadeja
    Nov 30, 2012 - 11:02AM

    There seems to be a contradiction here at the start of the article. Mr. Kamran has been long criticizing the institution of army for what he perceives as ” involvement” in domestic Pak politics but if HT , a peaceful political party, accounts Kiyani’s policies, which are destroying Pakistan and its army , then it is condemned . Why ?

    HT’s critique is on Kiyani’s policies and not institution and abducting its members is only a proof that Kiyani has no word of truth for his own defense. But Shafi sahab did well to condemn this thing. I appreciate.

    Second, the conference in LAL MASJID has nothing to do with HT and same goes for personalities involved.

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  • Nov 30, 2012 - 11:34AM

    @Lala Gee:

    “In no way I am condoning Mr. Chaudhry’s actions, but where are his rights of “Freedom of Thought” and “Freedom of Expression” as tirelessly advocated by western leaders in case of Sulaman Rushdi, Sweedish Cartoonist, and recenly American Filmmaker?”

    Two points:
    1) There is infinitely more chance of Pakistan coming under Sharia, that people in UK and Kamran Shafi oppose, than UK.

    Just like the Terrorists who were asked to kill infidels and later turned on Muslims for not being Muslim enough, these guys will eventually turn on Muslims for exactly the same reason. Its already happening, I don’t need to explain, I hope.

    2) He does have Freedom of Speech. Thats why he can roam around UK unharmed and untouched by the state.

    I am taking that you will not oppose the movie “innocence of Muslims”. Quid pro quo, right?

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  • lodhi
    Nov 30, 2012 - 1:05PM

    Very good article. The narrow minded people however do not like such statements of truth.They want hide their faces in the sand.

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  • Abdullah
    Nov 30, 2012 - 1:39PM

    They are peaceful. They calling an institution of the state to take action – why their call is resonating? Debate them Do Not Shut them

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  • Zeux
    Nov 30, 2012 - 2:30PM

    @gp65:
    Who defines what is free speech? You? give us a break

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  • Mi Kon
    Nov 30, 2012 - 4:50PM

    @gp65:

    He has rights to freedom of expression but inciting people to murder crosses the threshold and becomes hate speech which is not permissible.

    And you defended Bal Thackeray? The man who labelled muslims a cancer that needed to be operated on.The man who called for hindu terrorism to contain islamic terrorism. That is hate speech as well. Counter terrorism is not the solution to curb the menace perpetrated by Islamic extremists. Your bigoted views never cease to amaze me. Oh, I should mention that I am an Indian. Please do not reply to my comment stating that Thackeray never incited shiv sainiks as you’ve done in the past because his role in the riots as been elaborated on by the sri krishna commission. You are so blinded by your jingoism that actions of right wingers in india escape your notice.

    Don’t thackeray’s words qualify as hate speech? Answer that. If not, why not ? It’s beyond me how educated Indians can defend that man.

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  • gp65
    Nov 30, 2012 - 8:10PM

    ET: This is deliberate distortion about what I said – please allow response.
    @Mi Kon: “And you defended Bal Thackeray? The man who labelled muslims a cancer that needed to be operated on”

    You are deliberately distorting what I said. I never did agree with his politics which was based on bigotry and said so. There was a specific chain of thought comparing him to Kasab which I disagreed with since there are other other obvious comparisons I can think of in Pakistan (someone who founded a political party for a linguistic group which became the largest elected party in the commercial capital of the country. A Party which was widely believed to be involved in tit for tat target killing in the city but where nothing has ben proved in court). I also provided additional information on the 1992-93 riots which were not started by the Hindus but where Hindus did retaliate and Sena was widely believed to have been involved in the tit for tat killings. I specifically said ” Sadly it was easy to sell bigotry and both sides did that” to indicate how I felt about events of that time.
    @Zeuz :”@gp65:
    Who defines what is free speech? You? give us a break”
    No. The state. and its courts when a dispute comes up in front of them. In this case UK has deemed Anjem’s words as free speech and Pakistan based on the agenda of the meeting did not deem it as free speech. I was just providing the criteria for defining free speech used in US since that is where the video was uploaded. Also I was responding to Lala Gee’s specific comment.

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  • gp65
    Nov 30, 2012 - 9:11PM

    ET: When people distort what I said on other boards, you must allow me a right to rebut).
    @Mi Kon: “And you defended Bal Thackeray? The man who labelled muslims a cancer that needed to be operated on.The man who called for hindu terrorism to contain islamic terrorism. That is hate speech as well”

    You are mischaracterising my position deliberately. Several points:
    1. I never agreed with his politicswhich I felt was based on bigotry and have said so hroughout my life and also on ET boards.
    2. The 1992-93 Mumbai riots were incorrectly characterized as anti-Muslim state sponsored pogrom and I set the record straight i.e. they were riots Hindus and Muslims both died. The riots were started by Muslims and Sena is widely believed to have been part of the tit for tat retaliatory killings by Hindus. There have been no communal riots in Mumbai for the pats 20 years. Also I expressed how I felt about the events of those times by stating “Sadly bigotry was easy to sell and both sides did it”. It is a fact that Thackeray WAS tried for hate speech in the Indian courts and acquitted.
    3. I also disagreed with the attempt to equate him with Kasab. There is a very clear parallel with Thackeray in Pakistan and no Pakistani will have any difficulty in figuring out who that is : Thackeray established a political party in the commercial capital of the country to advocate for the rights of a particular linguistic minority. His party is widely believed to have been involved in tit for tat kilings though no cases have been proved in the courts.
    @Zeux:@gp65:
    Who defines what is free speech? You? give us a break”

    No. The state defines free speech through its government and its court in case the government’s decision is challenged. This is how it was done in UK and also Pakistan with regards to the gentlemen in question. I simply responded to @Lala Gee who raised the issue of free speech and explained the criteria used in US where the 3rd rate and offensive video was uploaded.

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  • Mi Kon
    Nov 30, 2012 - 11:00PM

    @gp65:

    Killing hindus was despicable but shiv sena’s retaliation cannot be justified. An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind. The country has a police force and an army that should be called in to control such situations. No party should have the right or should take the liberty to send its members on the street to retaliate as this only exacerbates the situation.
    I made no mention of Mr Ajmal Kasab in my comment. But I do remember you trying to communicate to readers that Thackeray had no role to play in any violence. That was preposterous to say the least ! I do not remember the article but one comment of yours read, ” Btw, who has Thackeray killed? ”
    Yes, Thackeray was tried for hate speech and was later acquitted – Pls read your interaction with Dee Cee in which you hinted at his innocence and tried you imply he was not guilty of hate speech and you even went on to question the credibility of the Sri Krishna Commission Report. What little respect I had for you, went out the window, when I read these words –

    *If the Shri Krishna report was so credible, why did they not initiate prosecution against Bal Thackeray? Also he has been prosecuted and acquitted for hate speech by the courts. DO you believe in the courts or only when they provide the judgment you are looking for?*

    This was your reply to Dee Cee.Recommend

  • gp65
    Nov 30, 2012 - 11:40PM

    @Mi Kon: “Killing hindus was despicable but shiv sena’s retaliation cannot be justified. An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind”

    I agree with that. I did not once say that the retaliation was a good thing. I have simply said that what happened wasn’t one sided as was sought to be portrayed. The very fact that I said ” Sadly bigotry was easy to sell and both sides did it” tells you how I felt about the killings.
    As you also correctly point out, I did say the following to Dee Cee and I stand by that. “If the Shri Krishna report was so credible, why did they not initiate prosecution against Bal Thackeray? Also he has been prosecuted and acquitted for hate speech by the courts. DO you believe in the courts or only when they provide the judgment you are looking for? If we do not rely on the courts then what should we rely on? Street justice? Isn’t that the exact opposite of what you were recommending in your post that government and courts should be the ones to decide not political parties?

    You said “The country has a police force and an army that should be called in to control such situations” and I agree with you that the state instituions and not street justice is the way to go. India has learnt its lessons. There have been no communal riots in Mumbai in 20 years and no comunal riots in India in close to 11 years. Individual bigots may exist but the space for their bigotry has narrowed considerably and media, civil society, judiciary all have had a role to play in the process. As for you not respecting me – that is an opinion you are certainly entitled to have. All I ask is that yu do not quote me out of context to distort what I said.

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  • Another North Indian
    Dec 1, 2012 - 12:05AM

    Mi Kon, whoever you may be you are not very intelligent or terribly honest.

    Very few people on those anti-Thackeray boards were praising or defending Thackeray as ‘innocent’ or blameless. Even so, are you so personally vested in Bal Thackeray that you must view all of the world through your particular lens of Thackeray-the-Devil worldview?

    People like you need to grow up a little.

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  • Lala Gee
    Dec 1, 2012 - 1:01AM

    @gp65:

    “I also provided additional information on the 1992-93 riots which were not started by the Hindus but where Hindus did retaliate and Sena was widely believed to have been involved in the tit for tat killings”

    Here is a brief excerpt from a lengthy report “India: Communal Violence and the Denial of Justice”, describing in detail the events of Bombay riots of 1992-93. This report was compiled and published by the “Human Rights Watch” organization, the most respected international human rights watchdog, and hosted on the United Nations Commission for Human Rights (UNCHR) website.

    “INTRODUCTION
    The riots followed weeks of attacks on Muslims in north India in the aftermath of the destruction of a sixteenth-century mosque in Ayodhya in the north Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. Labeled as “communal” because the violence involved communities identified by religious differences,1 the riots were in fact orchestrated events which depended on the connivance or outright participation of police and other officials and political leaders…..By terminating the commission, the government has signaled that those responsible for the bloodshed, including members of the Bombay police, will not be held accountable for their crimes. In an apparently related move, on January 23, 1996, the Maharashtra government also announced that it planned to drop twenty-four cases of incitement and other charges in connection with the Bombay riots against Bal Thackeray, the head of the Shiv Sena party, an extremist Hindu nationalist party responsible for organizing many of the January 1993 attacks.”

    “Summary of Findings
    The violence in Bombay emerged out of an organized and systematic ideological campaign directed primarily against India’s Muslim minority which culminated in the attacks of December 1992 and January 1993. On December 6, 1992, a sixteenth-century mosque in Ayodhya, in the north Indian state of Uttar Pradesh was demolished. During the preceding months, a movement of political parties, religious groups, and cultural organizations, including the BJP, Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Shiv Sena,[5] had called for the construction of a temple on the site of the mosque as an integral move in their struggle for Hindutva, or Hindu rule.”

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  • Mi Kon
    Dec 1, 2012 - 1:08AM

    @gp65:

    To quote Dee Cee’s excellent reply:

    I am not sure if you are young or innocent enough to sincerely believe that whosoever is acquitted by a court is innocent. Courts are bound by the evidence produced by the executive, which (be it Congress the original creator of Shiv Sena to decimate CITU in Mumbai mills or be it BJP vacillating between hard, soft, gelatinous, and other brands of Hindutva with different densities) has an interest in pandering to the conservative Hindu elements in the society. Tytler and sundry Congress people have been acquitted of the Sikh massacres, the Gandhi family is increasingly going beyond the reach of any Bofors taint, and yet you’d choose to focus on the sacrosanctness of court decisions only when it comes to Thackeray.

    Yes, India hasn’t seen riots in a long time and that’s exactly why the educated elite must speak out against the likes of Thackeray, not allude to his innocence because the idea is to maintain the peace.So please Mr/Ms gp65 stop hinting at his innocence or doubting the sri krishna commission report because the truth about his brand of politics is not hidden from anyone.

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  • Mi Kon
    Dec 1, 2012 - 1:21AM

    @Another North Indian:

    I am like you ! Just another North Indian

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  • Lala Gee
    Dec 1, 2012 - 1:28AM

    @BruteForce:

    I guess you didn’t read this part of the author’s writing. Pay some attention to the highlighted text.

    This organisation too was banned after it foolishly threatened to protest the paying of respects to the war dead by the townspeople of Wooton Bassett located as it was near RAF Lyneham, the RAF’s main transport base in Wiltshire. Since the hearses carrying the coffins of the servicemen and women killed in Iraq and Afghanistan passed through the High Street, it had become a custom for the people to line the street in silent homage.

    I was in England at the time, very near Lyneham at that, and well remember the justified anger and disgust of the locals at this brazen attempt to play with other people’s feelings. Particularly from those who — and their extended families — live on the dole in the UK; in council housing; their children going to state schools; their parents and grandparents looked after by the free NHS. Talk of biting the hand that feeds you.

    Anyway, the feelings of the entire country were so roused, even Muslim groups and organisation roundly condemning this stupidity on television and in the newspapers, that there was a great danger of the public peace being disturbed. Even the prime minister went public with his criticism. Amid the uproar he created, Mr Choudary quite cravenly backed down.”

    Where is the quid-pro-quo? I don’t see any.

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  • Lala Gee
    Dec 1, 2012 - 1:48AM

    @gp65:

    “2. The 1992-93 Mumbai riots were incorrectly characterized as anti-Muslim state sponsored pogrom and I set the record straight i.e. they were riots Hindus and Muslims both died. The riots were started by Muslims and Sena is widely believed to have been part of the tit for tat retaliatory killings by Hindus.”

    Continued from the same report “India: Communal Violence and the Denial of Justice”:

    “Muslims publicly demonstrated against the events in Ayodhya. Initially, these demonstrations were stopped by the police, who opened fire on the crowds. Later, protesting Muslims were attacked by Hindutva supporters. Large-scale riots ensued in which at least 1,700 women, men, and children were killed, 5,500 injured and an unknown number of women and girls raped.[8] Moreover, tens of thousands were forcibly displaced as their homes and shops were destroyed. In cities across north India, the police not only failed to protect victims of communal violence but also, in some areas such as Bombay, directly participated in the violence. Muslims, who constitute twelve percent of India’s population, were the principal target and suffered the worst abuses. Many fled out of fear of further violence. The majority of those who organized or participated in communal violence, though readily identifiable, were not detained or prosecuted by either the police or judicial authorities. Furthermore, in clear violation of the right not to be subjected to arbitrary arrest,[9] a number of Muslims were arrested under the provisions of the Terrorist and Disruptive Activities (Prevention) Act (TADA).[10]”

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  • Razi
    Dec 1, 2012 - 2:18AM

    @Mi Kon

    You have spoken the truth. This is very typical of gp65 and many other Indians. They go all out to defend Hindu extremists and have soft corner for them but when it comes to the Pakistani religious right, the verdict is uncomplicated and decisive. And obviously, the Indian court system is to be extolled and Pakistani court system is to be trashed. This is how they play their cunning games. Wait for Modi to leave this world and then you’ll see how these hypocrites come flocking to his defence. The double standards are so blatant that it makes one puke out of disgust.

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  • Lala Gee
    Dec 1, 2012 - 2:29AM

    @Mi Kon:

    The country has a police force and an army that should be called in to control such situations.”

    @gp65:

    “As you also correctly point out, I did say the following to Dee Cee and I stand by that. “If the Shri Krishna report was so credible, why did they not initiate prosecution against Bal Thackeray? Also he has been prosecuted and acquitted for hate speech by the courts.

    These four reports published by the “Human Rights Watch” comprehensively answer your argument. The complicity of police, army, judiciary, executive, and political parties with the killers, rapists, and hooligans (belonging to majority community), while persecuting and oppressing the minority communities is described at length in these reports with concrete proofs.

    1- “India: Communal Violence and the Denial of Justice”
    2- “Protecting the Killers: A Policy of Impunity in Punjab, India”
    3- “India: A Decade on, Gujarat Justice Incomplete”
    4- “Everyone Lives in Fear. Patterns of Impunity in Jammu and Kashmir”

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  • Jat
    Dec 1, 2012 - 3:34AM

    @gp65: Problem with Pakistanis is they have neither tasted freedom, nor do they understand how courts work. They think Indian judiciary is the same as Pakistan judiciary, and this is their biggest error. Indian judiciary has a wonderful record except for the period 1975-1077 when emergency was imposed.

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  • Jat
    Dec 1, 2012 - 3:37AM

    @Razi: Learn to differentiate between religious right and terrorism for God’s sake !

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  • Another North Indian
    Dec 1, 2012 - 6:14AM

    Mi Kon has won Pakistani stamp of approval. Both know more about India than Indians do. Kasab was Thakre. Pakistani court system is Indian court system.

    Lord be praised – to borrow from the author.

    Jat, to distinguish between religious right and terrorism would require much more than merely asking – mi kon? That is not a feat everyone can accomplish.

    Recommend

  • Dec 1, 2012 - 7:40AM

    @Lala Gee:

    US allowed the movie “Innocence of Muslims” on their soil, Pakistan allowing this Islamist to spread his message on its soil. It is quid pro quo.

    Don’t twist fact to suit your need.

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  • gp65
    Dec 1, 2012 - 7:49AM

    @Jat: In fact even in 1975, it was Justice Sinha’s bold judgment that precipitated the emergency

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  • gp65
    Dec 1, 2012 - 10:03AM

    @Lala Gee: I clicked the links you hvae provided and here are the results.
    Link 1 and 4 – are broken
    Link 2 and 3 have the following disclaimer “This is not a UNHCR publication. UNHCR is not responsible for, nor does it necessarily endorse, its content. Any views expressed are solely those of the author or publisher and do not necessarily reflect those of UNHCR, the United Nations or its Member States.”

    Please provide credible links

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  • Lala Gee
    Dec 1, 2012 - 12:05PM

    @gp65:

    “@Lala Gee: I clicked the links you hvae provided and here are the results.
    Link 1 and 4 – are broken”

    “Please provide credible links”

    These links were working at the time I posted my comment, because I check the links before clicking post; even I did cut and paste the text from one of these reports, now broken, in my comments. If you search them on google, you will find these links listed in search results. Anyway, the same reports are also available on the Human Rights Watch website, the creator and the publisher of these reports. Here are the working links for these reports on HRW website.

    1- INDIA: Communal Violence and the Denial of Justice
    2- Protecting the Killers: A Policy of Impunity in Punjab, India
    3- India: A Decade on, Gujarat Justice Incomplete
    4- Everyone Lives in Fear. Patterns of Impunity in Jammu and Kashmir

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  • Jat
    Dec 1, 2012 - 12:35PM

    @gp65: @Jat: In fact even in 1975, it was Justice Sinha’s bold judgment that precipitated the emergency

    Correct, and that too from Allahabad High Court. Even a high court justice had the courage and integrity to take on such a powerful leader and sitting PM as Indira Gandhi.

    An amusing comparison came to my mind. Can a Director General of BSF or CRPF even think of refusing to present himself before any of the state High Courts ?

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  • Lala Gee
    Dec 1, 2012 - 12:38PM

    @gp65:

    “Link 2 and 3 have the following disclaimer “This is not a UNHCR publication. UNHCR is not responsible for, nor does it necessarily endorse, its content. Any views expressed are solely those of the author or publisher and do not necessarily reflect those of UNHCR, the United Nations or its Member States.”

    Now you have exposed your typical Indian mentality, as if UNHCR would host fake reports on their website, and Human Rights Watch, the most respected human rights watchdog for the rest of the world, is a fraudulent malicious organization having no credibility. Read my comments again, and I did mention these reports were produced by Human Rights Watch, not by the UNHCR. A couple of reports hosted on UNHCR website describe India’s progress in certain areas also bear the same disclaimer. I am sure, you wouldn’t mind this disclaimer saying “Any views expressed are solely those of the author or publisher and do not necessarily reflect those of UNHCR, the United Nations or its Member States.” on these reports, and accept their content without any reservation.

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  • Mi Kon
    Dec 1, 2012 - 1:50PM

    @Another North Indian:
    huh? But I’m an Indian. A north Indian from Haryana.

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  • Razi
    Dec 1, 2012 - 4:22PM

    @Jat

    So terrorism perpetrated by the Hindu religious right is to be shoved under the carpet as you people so hopelessly try to do? Learn to be as objective and unbiased about India and Hindus as you try to be about others. But you people are Hindus first, Indians second and anything else later. And stop your useless praise of the Indian judiciary; Modi and Thackeray would have been hanged had there been even a modicum of justice present in your system.

    Now rush again to an all out defence of your terrorists.

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  • Jat
    Dec 1, 2012 - 6:40PM

    @Razi: You dimwit where have I mentioned any country, religion or person ? Read it again,

    @Razi: Learn to differentiate between religious right and terrorism for God’s sake !

    Tell you what, we admit defeat, you are victorious. May you and your country continue on your chosen path, you have regularly scaled new heights in last 60 years, and we hope more of the same. That’s all we ask for…

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  • Hero No 1
    Dec 1, 2012 - 6:51PM

    @gp65 :

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/30/hitler-s-strange-afterlife-in-india.html

    Examples of Hate Speech ( excerpts from Thackeray’s editorials in Saamna) :
    On Dec. 9, 1992, for example, his editorial contained these lines: “Pakistan need not cross the borders and attack India. 250 million Muslims in India will stage an armed insurrection. They form one of Pakistan’s seven atomic bombs.”
    A month later, on Jan. 8, 1993, there was this: “Muslims of Bhendi Bazar, Null Bazar, Dongri and Pydhonie, the areas [of Mumbai] we call Mini Pakistan … must be shot on the spot.”

    Do you still think that Thackeray was innocent of hate speechs? I read comments where you asked readers for examples of thackeray having asked the shiv sainiks to attack muslims. Here are the examples Sir. Here they are! Eagerly awaiting your reply. Will you reply or scurry into a hole?

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  • Mi Kon
    Dec 1, 2012 - 6:52PM

    @gp65 :

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/30/hitler-s-strange-afterlife-in-india.html

    Examples of Hate Speech ( excerpts from Thackeray’s editorials in Saamna) :
    On Dec. 9, 1992, for example, his editorial contained these lines: “Pakistan need not cross the borders and attack India. 250 million Muslims in India will stage an armed insurrection. They form one of Pakistan’s seven atomic bombs.”
    A month later, on Jan. 8, 1993, there was this: “Muslims of Bhendi Bazar, Null Bazar, Dongri and Pydhonie, the areas [of Mumbai] we call Mini Pakistan … must be shot on the spot.”

    Do you still think that Thackeray was innocent of hate speechs? I read comments where you asked readers for examples of thackeray having asked the shiv sainiks to attack muslims. Here are the examples Sir. Here they are! Eagerly awaiting your reply. Will you reply or scurry into a hole?

    Recommend

  • Hero No 1
    Dec 1, 2012 - 7:30PM

    @gp65 :

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/30/hitler-s-strange-afterlife-in-india.html

    Examples of Hate Speech ( excerpts from Thackeray’s editorials in Saamna) :
    On Dec. 9, 1992, for example, his editorial contained these lines: “Pakistan need not cross the borders and attack India. 250 million Muslims in India will stage an armed insurrection. They form one of Pakistan’s seven atomic bombs.”
    A month later, on Jan. 8, 1993, there was this: “Muslims of Bhendi Bazar, Null Bazar, Dongri and Pydhonie, the areas [of Mumbai] we call Mini Pakistan … must be shot on the spot.”

    You asked readers for examples of thackeray having asked the shiv sainiks to attack muslims. Here are the examples Sir. Here they are! Eagerly awaiting your reply. Will you reply or scurry into a hole? The Indian courts acquitted thackeray of hate crimes – yes but they made an error in this case

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  • gp65
    Dec 1, 2012 - 8:32PM

    ET: When people write things to me and you do not publish my rebuttals which are pretty factual, it is unfair.
    @Hero No 1: Please read my earlier posts. Neither did I approve of Shiv Sena nor did I condone the tit for tat killing that occurred in 1992-93.
    Also I did not ask for examples about Thackeray. I lused to live in Mumbai and am quite familiar with his politics. .I asked Lala Gee a credible source and that is what I asked him to resupply. Also the very fact that you have to go back to 1992 to pull up things is because there have been no communal riots in Mumbai in almost 20 years. Now you tell me when was the last time that target killing took place in Karachi. A total of 900 people had died in the 1992-93 riots which included Hindus and Muslims. More people die in target killing each year i Karachi do they not? Finally, using language like ‘scurrying in the hole’ is a reflection on you not me.

    @Lala Gee : Most examples you gave related to communal violence. Well Indian courts are backlogged and justice is often delayed but it is not denied. 33 people have been convicted in the Gujarat riots case after the report you have attached the link to was published. This included a senior minister. More importantly due to the fact that civil society, media, judiciary have acted in concert, India has not had any incident of communal violence in the last 11 years. This is because we believe that learning from our mistakes and fixing it is more important. Now you tell me when was the last time Hazara Shias wee plucked from a bus and target killed. Do you think it is likely that the blasphemy law which is blatantly used for land grab cases and used mostly against minorities will be changed after the fate of Taseer, Bhatti, Qadri and the judge who sentenced Qadri? What about the institutionalized bigotry against Ahmadis in your constitution? Oh and also please tell me what action has been taken on the Hamoudur Rehman report and the atrocities that were committed on your own citizens in Operation searchlight.

    Communal harmony is far better in India today than it was 30 years back. Can you say the same about Pakistan?

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  • Another North Indian
    Dec 1, 2012 - 9:09PM

    Mr Beast

    I for one would agree that the courts made a mistake, but only if I am convinced that what you posted here is true and factual. My brother, I still believe Indian courts over someone like ‘Dilip D’Souza’.

    I have seen enough lies posted online as facts to believe everything I am shown on this or that websites. If it will help you, I can show you plenty of instances of such outright fabrications and distortions. You, however, are free the believe the beast, or anything you consider more credible.

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  • Another North Indian
    Dec 1, 2012 - 9:14PM

    I would again say, it is hilarious that people like Mi kon and Hero Sahib are so obsessed with painting a regionalist and a rightwinger they don’t like as the Devil that that is the only lens they can use to view the world. Even the kasabs of the world do not escape their single-minded obsession.

    As Indians, we must completely reject this extreme stupidity.

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  • Jat
    Dec 1, 2012 - 9:21PM

    @gp65: Bravo !

    Let them be… with at least ten people shot in Karachi everyday and God knows how many tortured and brutalized. I have given them three years, either they will turn around, or flop down to the ground.

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  • Hero No 1
    Dec 2, 2012 - 2:13PM

    @gp65:

    You had specifically requested for instances where Bal Thackeray had incited violence against muslims in previous op eds and blogs.
    The instances are here for you to see. Now tell me, did he or did he not incite violence.Yes or No?

    @Mr Illiterate : Saamna is a newspaper which thackeray ran. Dilip D’souza has quoted from it. He’s hasn’t cooked up stories of what thackeray said.

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  • Another North Indian
    Dec 2, 2012 - 4:50PM

    Beast, you obviously don’t believe that people can and regularly do cook up stuff to suit their agenda. Wait till some Thakre supporter ‘quotes’ the words of many other beloved ‘leaders’ in India.

    You can play that brainless game of one-upmanship alone. The rest of us would continue to rely on Indian courts – perfect or imperfect, whatever they be.

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  • Razi
    Dec 2, 2012 - 5:24PM

    @Hero No 1

    You will not get a direct response, only evasive tactics. The best they can do is to point to problems in Karachi which is totally unrelated to the issue at hand. But then, what else can one expect.Recommend

  • Another North Indian
    Dec 2, 2012 - 7:56PM

    Razi Mian

    Here is a direct answer to you. Go to this website and get all the ‘facts you need’ and then join with various like-minded beasts and birds to spread it around as Gospel Truth.

    http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/

    It may not convince any of us here since we know precisely who creates such websites and stories, but it will surely save Pakistan.

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  • gp65
    Dec 2, 2012 - 10:56PM

    ET: It is frustrating that while Hero No.1 who also posts as Mi kon has no trouble posting deliberate distortions against me, I have to post multiple times to get my rebuttal through. Not fair.
    @Hero No 1: “@gp65:
    You had specifically requested for instances where Bal Thackeray had incited violence against muslims in previous op eds and blogs.
    The instances are here for you to see. Now tell me, did he or did he not incite violence.Yes or No?”
    Mi Kon/Hero No. 1
    You continue to use different monikers to make it appear like different people are challenging me. quote me out of context from previous OpEds and blogs – so once and for all I will say that any further discussion will be limited to what I said in this OpEd and blog. I cannot and will not respond to your cherry picked distortions.

    Secondly like @Another North Indian, I have greater faith in Indian courts than Mr. D’Souza. People can and do write lies. SO just because Sunil D’Souza says that is what Thackeray said, I will not believe him. I would prefer to believe India’s legal system where he WAS tried and acquitted. for hate speech. Do I say he was blameless in the 1993 riots or that I jusified the Hindu retaliation to Muslim killing? I have never said that though you continue to deliberately distort what I said.

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  • Hero No 1
    Dec 3, 2012 - 12:39AM

    @gp65:

    What about Ayesha Khan whose letters to the editor get published in the Express tribune. She lives in Dallas Texas US. Don’t you also comment as her. Well, that is a fact everyone is aware of.

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  • Dec 3, 2012 - 1:50PM

    Great site, thanks!!!Recommend

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