Law must take its course in US diplomat case: FO spokesman

Published: January 29, 2011
US consulate employee Davis is escorted by police and officials after appearing before a judge in Lahore. PHOTO: AFP

US consulate employee Davis is escorted by police and officials after appearing before a judge in Lahore. PHOTO: AFP


The government on Saturday said the legal process should be respected after the US embassy called for the immediate release of an American diplomat who was arrested after he killed two Pakistanis this week.

The American, identified by police as Raymond Davis, told a court on Friday he had acted in self-defence after fleeing what he said was a robbery attempt in Lahore on Thursday.

Davis has been remanded in police custody for six days for questioning.

“This matter is sub judice in a court of law and the legal process should be respected,” a Pakistani foreign office spokesman said in a statement.

The US embassy said in a statement on Friday only that a staff member of the US Consulate General in Lahore was involved in an incident involving “loss of life”.

In a statement on Saturday, the embassy identified him as a US diplomat who it said had been unlawfully detained by authorities in Lahore, where the shooting took place.

It said the diplomat acted in self-defence when confronted by two armed men and had every reason to believe they meant to harm him, and said arresting the diplomat was a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention.

In his initial statement, Davis told police that he was chased by the two men soon after he withdrew money from a cash machine. The men approached him when he pulled over at a traffic signal and they pointed a gun at him.

Davis then fired at the men, a police official said.

On Friday, the US Ambassador Cameron Munter reportedly met Foreign Secretary Salman Basheer, requesting the federal government’s intervention in the case of the US official.

Speaking to the media yesterday (Friday), Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanaullah had said that Davis will not be given VIP protocol and will be sent to jail after interrogation. He said that no one was above the law and that the Punjab government was taking action under its legislation.

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Reader Comments (73)

  • Pakistan One
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:37PM

    Lets see when the Punjab government releases him. I know they will come up with an excuse that the federal government pressurized them.

    It is interesting to see that an American civilian has become a diplomat all of a sudden. I wonder if he is a XE (Blackwater) employee.Recommend

  • omer
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:46PM

    here we go again. they keep on demending “dimplomatic immunity” for every tom, dick and harry and we keep on providing the immunity. its high time that this “diplomatic immuinity” should be used for the purpose it was meant for, that is for the diplomats.
    Mr. Davis would be released and Pakistan would move on as it has been doing since last ten years. no wonder we are the ultimate Banana republic of this world.Recommend

  • Faizan
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:46PM

    Please let me clear something!! He is not a diplomat and has not proven that yet. Therefore Express Tribune should,in it’s coverage, not refer to him as a diplomat.Recommend

  • anis kazi
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:46PM

    are we expecting operation saving private ryan from the US consulate?Recommend

  • AD
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:49PM

    US would soon release ten percent and Pak would soon release Mr.Davis.Recommend

  • Azfaar Siddiqi
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:50PM

    He must be kept here, investigated here and there should be a proper trial against him and the other two as well who came to help this guy … they shall be treated like Dr. Afia Siddiqi who was kidnapped from our land where as these people have been caught here red handed … and NO IMMUNITY shall be granted DIPLOMATS have there enclosure they are diplomats in that enclosure when they leave that enclosure they are simple humans who shall be answerable to the law, Recommend

  • saher
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:52PM

    are they allowed to kill under diplomatic immunity ??:SRecommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:55PM

    @ Pakistan One:
    Mate, we dont need XEs and Blackwater operatives to create mayhem in Pakistan. Our mullas and ghairat brigade is already busy decimating the country or whatever is left of it.

    This guy appears to have acted in self defense and must be released. You can jump up and down and cry and moan but the fact remains that if it was you or me who were about to be robbed, kidnapped or worse, we would have done what Cameron has done.

    Calm down.

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 3:55PM

    Mr. Davismisused his right of self-defence …

    Now it is reveal after findings that the victims If they were armed, with a licensed pistol, &

    he (Mr. David) was carrying unlicensed weapon. (baretta is deadliest from close range, and


    and the next issue …

    By the way this AMERICAN was sent back as PERSONA NON GRATA, when he was in Peshawar.

    Now this is point, who sent him back in Pakistan, and what HAQQANI sahab doing in AMERICA,

    issuing visa’s to every american, without any investigation.

    His picture been removed from all major webistes … who is doing that … but not to worry i am

    posting his pictures at thousands more places,…

    below is the lick which is showing his picture till late night but now … link not working ….


  • Jan 29, 2011 - 3:59PM

    If he is given back to America Pakistanis’ will become more demoralized and consequences could be desperate. But Pakistan doesn’t have to guts to behave independently since its economy is collapsed as also our leaders’ values have collapsed. May Allah help us.Recommend

  • Mohammad Ali Siddiqui
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:02PM

    Only American’s are human beings, not Pakistanis?

    Release of American will create choas in the country. Why we should bow to US when Pakistan is a soverign nation?

    American should be charged according to the local laws.

    Hope the sitting government after learning lessons from the political unrest in Tunis and Egypt will not repeat the same mistake in Pakistan.

    One never know that after the release of American Murderer, people of Pakistan will come out on the streets against the government of President Zardari and force him to step down.Recommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:03PM

    It is so amazing to read the comments from the posters. This is the true “lynch mob”mentality. There is law which should take its course. He is a DIPLOMAT and has DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY regardless of the way you want events to turn out. Where were all of you when women were getting paraded naked in bazars, burnt with acid, killed in the name of honour, buried alive, married to quran, killed to preserve the honour of the families, children getting raped, innocent men and women blown by suicide bombers and minorities being torn to pieces –

    All of a sudden you see an American Gora acting in self defense killing two would-be-robbers and you want him to be lynched even before he has an opportunity to clarify his case.

    Sad affairs in this land and worse is this mentality to “hang”, “kill” and incarcerate another being without understanding the events with clarity,

    These are the same americans that keep you employed , keep Pakistan from going under by bailing us out and giving us money, keep importing our goods so that our industries and factories churn goods, keep giving us funds to build our infrastructure, roads and hospitals and providing tens of thousands of Pakistanis to live in America and send remittances back home that our governments so rely on.

    True reflection of the mentality of the mob that is determined to bite the hand that feeds us…


  • Rana Asif
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:06PM

    I am more concerned about the other car’s driver, what Punjab Govt. can do to arrest him?Recommend

  • Azfaar Siddiqi
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:12PM

    @ Haris he is not a Pakistani and he has no right to kill the way he did, there were 4-5 bullets recovered from one man and three or so from the another one, self defense does not means to clear the magazine over the threat. If you even punch some one is self defense you are answerable and there can be a trail against you as well if he/she loses any sense due to that punch and this guy started to unload the whole magazine at the two bikers at once without realizing that they may die after receiving so many bullets. :@ I am angry at the Embassy who is asking for immunity and the government who have not declined there request yet…Recommend

  • Ali Gul
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:21PM

    @Haris Chaudhry: what about the guy he or his associates ran over?Recommend

  • CB Guy
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:21PM

    try him and follow what ever is the verdict. If he gets “diplomatic immunity”, every foreign citizen would think it to be his right to kill whom ever he/she pleases in this country. Recommend

  • omar yusaf / Sydney
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:33PM

    Nida – I am afraid your link has also been “taken down”.
    These people make a living out taking down the ‘baddies’ and are equally adept at killing a link that annoys them.
    It seems the spooks are one step ahead of you.
    Be that as it may, the writing is on the wall, and nothing will come of this, because the authorities care less for justice and the dignity of the average Pakistani, than our stellar allies, the United States of America.
    Don’t hold your breath on this one.
    Or for other ‘incidents’ that are bound to follow while cowboys are allowed to run amok in our country.Recommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:37PM

    @ Mohammad Ali Siddiqui
    “Release of American will create choas in the country. Why we should bow to US when Pakistan is a soverign nation?..”

    We are not a sovereign nation Siddiqui Saab,

    We run from pillar to post begging money from US and European nations and IMF and World Bank so that our economy keeps going and so that we dont default as a country.

    We rely on Americans to give us F16s and missiles and technology so that we pretend to be a Muslim super power.

    We rely on handouts so that we can finance projects from building dams and roads to reconstruction of flood affected areas.

    We are not sovereign nation because we rely on others to feed us, build our country, bail us out, lend money to us and protect us.

    China, America, India, UK, France et al are sovereign. We are an almost failed nation on the brink of bankruptcy.


  • sam
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:44PM

    lets see how long can davis be detained by punjab police……Recommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:47PM

    Ok- Here is my question to you all. Calm down , take a deep breath or 2 and try to respond in a balanced and objective manner.

    Say, you are in a car with your family and just returning from a bank having cash on you. A motorbike with 2 suspicious looking characters pulls up near you. One of the people on the bike pulls put a pistol – Traffic is chaotic and you have no escape route to speed away. You realise you have a loaded pistol with you for your self defence in this land of murderers and thieves. Tell me what you would do:

    A- Stop the car and present yourself to the would-be robbers and present your hard earned cash to them.

    B- Volunteer yourself to be shot at and pray that none of the bullets hit you.

    C- Present yourself to the would-be-robbers-cum-kidnappers and ask them to take you wherever they want you to

    D- Panic and shoot them fearing for your life and thinking that you in a car in thick traffic could never out run them on a motor bike.

    I bet 100% of you would do what Cameron did. You are all so full of hatred against all things american that you would rather not accept that you would have done what he seems to have done.

    Not only would you have killed those that pulled a gun to you, you would gloat about killing the robbers to your friends and perhaps say Nafil and give Sadqa to thank the lord that you are safe.

    No wonder the whole world calls us a nation of hypocrites – The sentimental, emotiona, lynch mob, devoid of any balance, sanity and perspective,

    remember, these are the same americans that are keeping our country , military and economy afloat.

    Haris ChaudhryRecommend

  • omar yusaf / Sydney
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:52PM

    @Haris Chaudhry:
    I agree with you about the hypocrisy with regard to other meritable causes in our society being met with apathy and disregard.
    However, I vehemently disagree with your understanding of “the hand that feeds us”.
    True, we are unashamedly beggars where the yanks are concerned. That is an old story that has its inception in Ayub Khans time.
    However, you go too far when you claim that we should be grateful to them for all that they have done for us.
    I am afraid you sound like a spokesman for the US Embassy when you wrongfully claim that we owe our prosperity to them.
    History has a different story to tell about our relationship with the Americans, and I hate to tell you this Haris, but it is totally at odds with the product of your imagination.
    We are where we are, as a direct result of our alliance with the US.
    That is to say – we are in a bloody mess, and we are unable or unwilling to extricate ourselves from what can rightly be described as an unholy alliance.Recommend

  • Shameel
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:53PM

    If he was a diplomat, it was his LEGAL obligation to carry his DIPLOMATIC ID (which is issued by the Foreign Office) with him at all times. The Police is not obligated to release him until his diplomatic status is verified by the Foreign Office. PERIOD. Recommend

  • Shameel
    Jan 29, 2011 - 4:59PM
  • Azfaar Siddiqi
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:01PM

    A- Stop the car and present yourself to the would-be robbers and present your hard earned cash to them.

    to save the family i would defiantly not try to resist and give them what ever they need…Recommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:11PM

    @ Azfar:

    “- Stop the car and present yourself to the would-be robbers and present your hard earned cash to them.
    to save the family i would defiantly not try to resist and give them what ever they need…”

    Right –

    Now, what if you were a “gora” who does not know if those that pulled up a gun are their to take your money or your life wanting to turn you into another “Daniel Pearl”. What would you do, if you did not know if they want your money or life.

    Would you then take a gamble with your life or if you had the means to kill them, you would just do that ?

    Making comments through the comfort of your home is easy – Living an experience where your life is in peril is different. The choices we think we would make whilst day dreaming are not the real choices we end up making in panic mode.


  • Babruk
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:15PM

    i won’t be surprised if the robbers overnight turn into martyrs. so much anger against the US but what about the oppression of poor, women and minorities at the hands of the powerful. no body says anything but when an American is involved everybody is so charged up. Recommend

  • Jehangir
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:17PM

    Pakistan will be next Tiunas & Egypt, if this American is released. Recommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:21PM

    @ Omar Yusuf / Sydney:

    “I am afraid you sound like a spokesman for the US Embassy when you wrongfully claim that we owe our prosperity to them….”

    Which prosperity you are talking about mate…? We can barely feed our naked and poor and you think we are prosperous ..?

    We dont owe our prosperity to them because we are a bankrupt nation. What we definitely owe them is almost everything we have… We owe them our economic survical.
    Hope you dont have too short memory. Only 2 years ago we were on the brink of bankruptcy and it was not the Chinese or Saudis that came to our aid. It was US that bailed us out. Not only it did give us direct aid, it lobbied IMF and World Bank to rescchedule most of our loans..

    US also is the single largest DONOR to this nation. US also is the largest arms supplier to us that keep our chests puffed and we pretend to be some hot shot super power.

    US also absorbs billions of worth of our goods that we export. It can easily NOT import any the same way it does not import from Iran.

    It is a giver and we are takers/ beggars. We can dream and pretend to be the centre of the world but we are nothing more than a global headache/ migraine for the world.

    The day US dumps us is the day we will fail. Our economy will fail within days. Our factories will close and we would effectively be history. Please read objectively on what US has done for this nation and keeps doing to keep it afloat.

    Haris ChaudhryRecommend

  • kamran
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:23PM

    beggars cannot be choosers,
    yaar why we innocent pakistanis are always befooled by media or our politicians etc.
    all our beloved politicians, establishment are bikao at the hands of americans, they are merely puppets, master will only show lil stick and put aside central govt even punjab govt hand davis with showering of flower petals key mr davis is a brave man and he shot bandits who deserved death…just wait few more days….meanwhile mullahs are having their poltical chances to play politics at the deathRecommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:24PM

    @ Jehangir: “Pakistan will be next Tiunas & Egypt, if this American is released.”

    Right-o. We wish we are the next Tunisia or Egypt !!! I am sure Tunisians and Egyptians would never wish to be remotely like us even in this anarchy.

    They are far more literate, tolerant, self sufficient and balanced people and countries than the hypocritical lot that calls this country home.

    Your statement is comical :)


  • Zeeshan
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:29PM

    @Haris Chaudry you and media keep talking about those 2 people who had been shot by Davis in self defence, how do we know for sure that they were Robbers, to save Davis because of American pressure the Police might say that they were robbers, the thing is Americans diplomats are always right whatever they do and they can do whatever they want and what about the Third person who was killed by a person who came to save Davis, that person entered in a wrong way and hit a bike in full speed, who was he where is he now and by the way as it says he killed those 2 people in self defence, what if something happens in AMERICA, a Pakistani diplomat person killed somebody with full loaded pistol in US in his self defence, things would have been different, Media is hypocrite they show same stories in different ways and for your information in west there are rapes everyday, children are stabbed everyday in gang war and many things, its just they dont show everything on media.Recommend

  • Azfaar Siddiqi
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:34PM

    @ Haris … just tell me can you kill some one on suspicious looks only? lets suppose if you are in Africa and there some big black ppl come to you and harass you will you empty the magazine if lets say you have a gun? its not easy to kill a dog when it gets old… at least i can not open fire on someone who did not hurt me and even if someone hurts me there is police your ‘gora sahab’ would have been heard there properly and his belongings recovered, and as far as the experience is concerned i have been living in Peshawar from 1991-2009 when i at last shifted to Rawalpindi due to security concerns to me and my family and in my last months there i had seen enough bombing and kidnapings there to move out of the city…

    Even if i say that i will kill someone if he tries to rob me but taking out the gun and pulling the trigger is the most hard thing to do and then pulling it 8-9 times in so called self defense is a base less..

    basically immunity is being asked because he is -Gora Sahab-

    didn’t he heard that a Chinese diplomat was injured in Karachi he must have taken security personal instead of taking a gun with him…

    the problem is -Gora Sahab- in fact as people used to say in respect to the white skinned people found amongst us…Recommend

  • Azfaar Siddiqi
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:38PM

    I hope so jahangir but only expect this to happen in Punjab/sindh/frontier/Kashmir/gilgit baltistan or Baluchistan as we have ethinc divisions so i rule out any inqilab sort of thing in Pakistan as a whole…Recommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 5:44PM

    @Haris Chaudhry:
    Haris, truth be told everyone reacts differently; i don’t know this guy, i don’t know what exactly happened, and no one really will except the people who were there. I don’t know if the two men he shot were thieves or not, but if he was really that afraid, he shouldn’t have been traveling alone. And if you’re a diplomat, you have to carry an ID…
    wow, if i ever hurt anyone, i hope my embassy makes me a diplomat over night too:P Recommend

  • Adnan
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:47PM

    Fortunately Mr.Davis is not a Pakistani like Dr.Afia who was also accused to kill Americans in self-defence. She was charged as terrorist hence got prisoner. At that time there was no reference of any convention. Now USA is asking to release his former soldier and a secret agent by coming up with excuses. Even if he is a diplomat or even an Ambassador , he has NO RIGHT to kill others.Recommend

  • bilal
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:48PM

    NAHI DAINGAY!!! :P .. release dr. afia first! :P haha Recommend

  • Syed
    Jan 29, 2011 - 5:56PM

    @Haris Chaudhry:
    You must be living in north America.Recommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 6:11PM

    Till now, it has not been proved that the two bikers killed were robbers. The guns that have been caught with them have legal licenses plus they’ve received bullets in their backs which makes the question of Raymond killing in ‘self-defence’ highly unlikely.
    Many thoughts have been expressed by various circles in the government and the media too regarding his true identity. Sources in the government have called him an ‘American Marine’ operating with a fake car number plate, while others have regarded him as an XE (Blackwater) agent who was busy in clandestine operations who even took pictures of his ‘hunted men’ soon after they were killed. It would also be pertinent to mention here that the man was also caught in the Lahore Cantt area one month back with fake number plate and with illegal arms.
    No doubt, with all the evidence against him available, and with court proceedings yet to take place, releasing him would be a folly by the government !!
    The people, although, totally neglectful of the daily breaches of sovereignty in the form of drone attacks, would never miss this chance to come out in the open .Recommend

  • Sabir Shah Hoti
    Jan 29, 2011 - 6:25PM

    This is not the matter of a Pakistani or of an American citizen this is the matter of Law, therefore let the courts to followed procedures of the case. The of the crime circumstances should be noted in that in which circumstances he opened the fire on innocent and killed them so insanely. During opening firing for the sake of his self defense he was at this time traveling on the road where there were huge gatherings of the people that can support him by shouting or start shooting in the air. This was the proper to target any body with out thinking. Let us see what is happening with this gora…Recommend

  • anonymous
    Jan 29, 2011 - 7:11PM

    @ Haris:

    Two things: First, there is no issue of involving cases of mullahs, mistreated or burnt women, raped children or so-called martyred heroes of democracy and justice with this guy. Second, the guy is not listed by the embassy to carry guns. Yes, I would have done the same thing if attacked by thugs or looters on a traffic signal, but the fact is, I am never allowed to kill a citizen of Pakistan who intends to snatch my mobile, or even tries to kill me. Moreover, if I am not allowed to carry guns under an agreement, why am I?? Your advocacy of law and legal system needs to be more explicit rather than tacit – learn the rules, listen to law, and then decide what is to be done with this guy, instead of submitting to your liberal emotions.

    Now, if you have already compared us with Egypt or Tunisia, you should also know that both countries have received huge amounts of financial aids and bailouts from uncle sam and are fond of this activity like us- even history suggests me that egypt once was forgiven USD 400m for just participating in the Gulf War!! Moreover, for the change of taste, let me give you the accounts of non-muslim countries for your satisfaction: Japan holds bases of more than 7000 American soldiers deployed; NZ, Australia, Canada, Spain, UK, Egypt, Switzerland, Taiwan, RSK, and many others, all have histories of getting financial and military aids from United States, and many countries still enjoy annual military support from our dear uncle. So, should I assume you suggesting that more than half of the global nations should be worrying about their respective definitions of sovereignty? I don’t see your perspective to be different from common irrational breed of this country, which is flooding this post.

    @ Everybody else:

    Stay calm and act moderately. If legal system goes in his favor, we should be respecting the decision.Recommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 7:22PM

    We may be beggars until economic aid is cut to us. Once we are left to live on our own, we may start growing. I think there could be ways to bring a change without rioting and panicking. That can be done if we educate our people, we take positive measures in our society(as individuals) and contribute on our part.

    Tribune, Admin… Please don’t omit my weblinks while posting my comments. They are for a good cause. You can check them out and show your concerns.
    Those who don’t want to join are at liberty not to join.Recommend

  • Nadeem Ahmed
    Jan 29, 2011 - 7:27PM

    A tip to Americans, if diplomatic immunity or anything else doesn’t work, then declare him a terrorist. This way police and courts will let him go free and there will also be no public outcry.Recommend

  • nina
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:00PM

    @Haris Chaudary
    Maybe America is the hand that feeds you and you feel the need to defend them. If you have ever studied the true history of American foreign policy since World War I, you will see that they have so much blood on their hands that it puts the worst mass murderer/terrorist to shame.
    America is surely not the hand that feeds Pakistanis, it only feeds the corrupt Pakistani leadersip and bureaucrats that continue to lick their shoes, nothing is given to the common man.
    You seem not to know much about the prosperity that thrives in this country which has not yet been tapped into, due to the greediness and bickering of our politicians who care only to line their pockets. Inshallah, one day this nation will prosper as no other on earth, and it will be the enlightened and educated youth that will bring about this change !
    Just a thought, do you think that if Mr. Haqqani or any of his staff in the US shot and killed a couple of fellows in broad daylight, that the govt of US would release them based on diplomatic immunity, even if they professed self defence. Think about it! Apparently the whole world considers Muslim blood to be cheap.Recommend

  • riaz
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:10PM

    What Haris says has a lot of merits even though it seems unfair and unjust.
    Everyone knows that Zardari and Gilani, like all others before them are good at taking the begging bowl to every nook and corner of the World. They always say ‘International community is not helping us’ which means to fatten our swiss accounts. Pakistan has enough money in swiss accounts to feed the whole nation (even when we are doubling our population two years) almost for next hundred years. When you have leaders who are not qualified to be chaparis in a Bank then that is all the respect you will get.
    No doubt Mr. Davis is an average joe consultant with a regular american passport with regular visa stamped in his passports yet he is considered diplomat now.
    He will be on a flight from Kabul to Washington in next two weeks. Our defense. dept would provide him proper escort to Kabul in an armed carrier or a c130.
    It is about time we bring another meaningless change just we like did after Mush left, brought in same old khotay sekay….that seems to be our destination and dispensation for sixty years bar moeen and junejo. More robbers also known as Pakistanis will be killed by average dogs from other nations without any respect and without impunity because we treat our own no different.
    Imagine the service provided to us at any embassy when a guy from consulate can put 20 bullets on a busy street without any consequences. He expected to be flown out immediately but Much Nasurullah needed some more displays of his five foot long mustache on tv so he asked police to arrest him but Davis will dutifully disappear in the night like Kansi left Multan in the dark of the night. So what is the next topic…this one is already closed and shut case.Recommend

  • Tahir
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:16PM

    I don’t understand why everyone gets so worked up without knowing the full details of the case. I find it hard to believe that Mr. Davis was driving around randomly just wanting to shoot dead a couple of Pakistani’s. I mean that’s just ridiculous !! Logic and common sense suggests that something about the two guys who were following him did something to provoke him.

    Now we need to figure out whether he was threatened with guns (or shot at) or did he just get a bad vibe from them and shot them. If its the first case i.e. he was threatened with actual guns then he was well within his rights to shoot those two boys. Remember once guns come out, you cannot assume the other person will not use them and you need to use whatever means you have to protect yourself.

    If this is the case, we should actually apologize to the guy and ask him to train our vaunted Punjab Police in how to aim.

    Regarding the second guy who ran the bike over, thats just tragic and the person should be taken to court and punished according to the crime. However lets not forget how many people are killed by errant truck and bus drivers everyday, how many are caught, prosecuted and punished.

    Lets keep the same rules for the Americans as we keep for ourselves, I don’t understand why we hold them accountable to a higher bar then we set for ourselves. Is it merely because we’ve become so conditioned to hate them ??Recommend

  • Abrar Ahmed
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:23PM

    Davis is the same person who was expelled from Pakistan after being declared as an undesirable person due to his suspicious activities in Peshawar, a few months ago. How he managed to enter Pakistan again? These people are now using locals for target killing, explosions and to incite sectarian violence in Pakistan, says Gen(R) Hameed Gul. Davis knew both these bikers, he killed them after using them. Davis is not an ordinary person, he seems to be a trained killer and expert in handling weapons, on a busy road of Lahore traveling in a private car he killed two bikers instantaneously with his weapon.Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:29PM

    @Haris Chaudhry

    After reading all your comment I have concluded that
    Its neither the Pakistan a failed state nor the Pakistanis are failed nation, essentially its the people like you who are failed and hopeless.

    But problem is that these kind of people are available in each and every nation and country.Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:48PM

    To all my Pakistani brothers and sisters in this forum.

    This Davis Raymond Issue is serious and sensitive, don’t make it an issue of Ghairat or Jazbaat. Let the local and international laws deal with this issue; till today government both Federal and Punjab is dealing with this issue properly as per the law and SOPs.

    Lets not make it political issue, there is no use of protesting on streets and start burning flags and tires, we look immature by doing this. Recommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 9:09PM

    Pakistan is a HUNTING FIELD for the International Forces. Arabs got Permit / License for HUNTING PURPOSE.

    No need to say that America is our Patron & BiggBoss; so he doesn’t need to get any such BONDAGE or Formal Permission. He has got full AUTHORITY to prey the Beautiful Birds & Powerful WarLords; after all he is paying for it. The entire American Nation is fond of Adventure, Fun, Hunting & Shooting of Man but saving the ANIMAL KINGDOM. That is why America has a Silent Authority to use his Nuclear Weapons, MDW & Drone Missiles where ever & when ever he likes.

    He has preyed millions & millions of HUMAN BEINGS in Japan, Cuba, VietNam, Iraq and Afghanistan so far. More over, he assisted so many others with FUNDINGS & WEAPONISING them in such activities.

    The Gentleman who has killed these persons should not be accused of any charge as all the Black-Water-Personnels have Full Liberty of it. They came here to fulfill their Animal Instincts and Shooting the Living Human Beings; they love the Fresh Hot Blood of Muslims as they are fighting “THE CRUSADE WAR”, under the TECHNICAL name of “War Against Terrorism”. When our Elected Rulers have, SILENTLY, allowed them & compromised with the prevailing circumstances, then nobody should have any objection.

    The BEGGERS are never given any RIGHT to cry over the ACT of DONORS.


  • QeA + QeD
    Jan 29, 2011 - 9:33PM

    Its amazing that the lahor court is ready to charge a gora-american for the act that might be justified and hence not a criminal but an act of self-defence! However, the same lahor court is dragging its feet when it comes to charging qadri with brutal murder of Governor Taseer!
    After the CIA station-chief debacle and this event, uncle sam is going to get upset. Biting hand that feeds us is not a good idea.Recommend

  • Peace On Earth
    Jan 29, 2011 - 9:38PM

    Thank GOD that none of the posters on here (hopefully) are judges in the judiciary, otherwise an American, Indian, Hindu, or Christian would NEVER get a fair trial!

    We don’t know the proper details and Pakistani news medias are heavily biased towards there own agenda. I was watching a Sindhi news channel where an anchor even said that the American was a spy.

    Really? How would HE of all people know this?

    Anyways, the fact of the matter remains that this man should be given a fair trial and that a neutral third-party should investigate this matter. Our Pakistani policemen have no investigation experience and would probably not even know how to collect evidence. All they know how to do is stop civilians and get there hands on some bribes.Recommend

  • kumar
    Jan 29, 2011 - 10:05PM

    So Simple.
    Davis has Diplomatic Passport with visa valid till June 2012, it is claimed.
    He should be allowed to show it or have the status verified from the records, and then he HAS to be let go.
    If you are a diplomat, you can get away with anything. This is the law.
    eg., in India, i remember that some diplomats recklessly speeding knocked down children and nothing happened to them.
    The only remedy is expulsion of the diplomat. Another alternative is to ask the americans to waive the immunity, but i doubt that’s going to happen.Recommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 10:40PM

    @Naeem Siddiqi: U r right broRecommend

  • kumar
    Jan 29, 2011 - 10:48PM

    better he not reply otherwise some crazed mulla will send qadri after him…Recommend

  • Sunny
    Jan 29, 2011 - 11:08PM

    I agree 100% with Haris regarding our socio-political situation. It is solely American aid that has kept us afloat and even after pouring in billions of dollars our economy is still on the brink of collapse. We need to wake up and face reality.

    Coming to the issue of Davis, well he is protected by diplomatic immunity; sooner or later we would have to let him go. I read a lot of people in here saying he is a blackwater employee or involved with clandestine operations, without solid proof of that Pakistan has to respect the diplomatic status afforded to him by various international conventions. The only thing we can do is to ask him to leave the county and then our FO will have to contact the US State Dept incase if Pakistan wants to levy Murder charges against him. This is how civilized nations do it, but I guess we are not civilized or nation for that matter.

    Oh and the fact that he is an able shooter proves nothing. The right to keep and bear arms (guns) is a constitutionally protected right in the US; a lot of civilian people keep all sorts of weapons and are excellent marksman. Recommend

  • Blithe
    Jan 29, 2011 - 11:30PM

    Why are we even talking about releasing this maniac????

    He shot both men when they were not facing him. He used excessive force. He is NOT a diplomat by any definition.
    Why didn’t his car have a dipliomatic number-plate?
    He runs a private company (

    I would like to see the Government and PML-N show some spine on this isssue. Recommend

  • Asaf
    Jan 30, 2011 - 12:05AM

    Haris Chaudhry, a very well articulated analysis of American-Pakistani relationship. An analysis which is so hard for so many people on this forum to understand or appreciate. This is the conclusion I have reached about discussions in our forums however: you can NEVER argue with some one who is so pathologically consumed by hatred of the West that he or she is not rational anymore. And that trait is so prevalent in our culture that I wonder if it will ever allow us to be part of this new global village that requires cooperation, understanding and maturity of thought and above all empathy. And one is entitled to expect that from people who form the educated cadre of this country but, alas, it is so rare. I don’t want to go into details of that irrational mind set but Haris, I thank you for taking time and putting your views forward without any nuance to obfuscate the message.


  • Zohaib
    Jan 30, 2011 - 12:25AM

    Although Aafia gets 86 years jail therefore Davis should be getting 90 years jail. This will be a fair trial :)Recommend

  • Aysha
    Jan 30, 2011 - 1:52AM

    He should be punished……If the US govt. wants him alive then free Dr. Aafia Siddique….and we all should protest to free AFIA SIDDIQUE…as if they want……raymond………Recommend

  • kahn
    Jan 30, 2011 - 2:28AM

    Rememebr Dr.aisia fair trial in USARecommend

  • Sara
    Jan 30, 2011 - 2:59AM

    Some Points:

    1: Raymond fired bullets from front, wind screen of his car was broken, that means the deceased were at front. ( How a person can rob from front of the car?)

    2: Both Deceased were fired at their back. It again cleares that both deceased were at front, and Raymond was on their back. ( If a person rob any body on gun point, he must be at the right/driving side of the car, not forward / Overtaking the car)

    3: The people who are filing application against deceased for robbery of their mobile and money, were they sleeping after robbery? They didnt inform Police /15 about the robbery and after more than 24 hours they remembered that their mobiles were snatched.

    ===============FORGE DOCUMENTS/ POLICE IS TRYING TO SAVE RAYMOND============Recommend

  • Omar Khayyam
    Jan 30, 2011 - 4:33AM

    The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
    Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
    Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
    Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

    Mr. Davis will be released, and not all the whining of Pious Pakistanis will make a difference …Recommend

  • Babruk
    Jan 30, 2011 - 5:29AM

    let it be determined if he was a diplomat. if he is not a diplomat then lets wait what the law says in that situation. whether a person who is working for an embassy enjoys diplomatic immunity. why is everyone so charged up. wait and see. if there is any injustice then we have the right to complain about it.
    I hope media does not create frenzy around the issue in its quest for RATINGS.Recommend

  • Jan 30, 2011 - 7:14AM

    The law must be respected. This is what the US keeps telling us. Let us show that we are an honorable people and want our people to be respected too.

    Remember Lee Kuan Yew’s Singapore when even when President Clinton publically intervend in support of a vandalizing American, they did not relent.

    Nations that stand up for their honor never die. Do it Pakistan….Recommend

  • Adnan
    Jan 30, 2011 - 7:32AM

    I totally agree. If govt released him, it will ignite a revolution. We only need a small incident such like this to start what we are seeing in Tunisia and Egypt.Recommend

  • Amanatullah
    Jan 30, 2011 - 10:06AM

    I agree with what Haris has commented. I don’t care where he lives (in US or Pak or India) but the sad truth is we are a ‘begairat’ nation. We have to stop begging and start a revolution in our country like in Egypt/Tunisia to get rid of these corrupt politicians and save our country, else I also see Pakstan as a failed state. May Allah give us sanity & courage!Recommend

  • Ehsan Haq
    Jan 30, 2011 - 11:17AM

    One can only laugh at the demand of Mr. Munter. Diplomats have properly recognized procedure by international norms. They are notified to the foreign office of the host country, got it approved and most of all travel on Diplomatic Passports. Everything has gone the opposite. Furthermore diplomatic community is required to inform the local police about their movements, which was not followed as well. His cow-boy-style shooting should not go unheard for, and must be brought to task in accordance with the law of land. We have to wait and see the outcome of US ambassador, Munter’s call to Nawaz Shareef.Recommend

  • Muslim
    Jan 30, 2011 - 12:41PM

    Hope everyone remembers AFIA SIDDIQUI.
    Despite diplomatic pressure, pleas and protests Americans insisted that “US law would take its course”. She did not kill anyone but was charged with “threating the life” and has been jailed for eternity. He and his buddy are actual killers. Let us swap him for Afia at least. For a change, hope Paki rulers would show some spine and courage? Recommend

  • Rizwan
    Jan 30, 2011 - 12:52PM

    We should not mess with Americans since they are belong to only super power,
    The guys who killed from the hands of Mr. Davis or not human beings they are worthless Pakistanis,
    Govt of Pakistan must release Mr. Davis and they should apologies and arrange his save exit from Pakistan,
    Can I ask one questions to all those who always talk about democracy and rule of law where they are now or rules only for Pakistanis and you guys or above all the laws around the globe,
    It is true your Govt gives millions of dollars aid but can I ask why you gave us there is one American phrase ( there is no free lunch ) so it mean if you give us aid there must be some work which we have to do some time with our blood also please for god sake leave us alone don’t give us any aid your aid is simply radicalizing our society,
    40 years of American aid did nothing in our country except to create lot of groups who ultimately works for you guys,
    Always remember one thing we also want to live like others so please help us in productive way don’t make us breeding ground for your global agenda,
    I know this time also you guys will manage to take Mr. Davis form clutches of our weak law and puppet Govt,Recommend

  • Jan 30, 2011 - 4:54PM

    Experts in Pakistan were surprised by the American demand for diplomatic immunity for a technical assistant of a consulate who killed two Pakistani youth by a firearm when even in cases of road accidents the same immunity was not given by the US even to an ambassador.

    The disclosure that the Lahore boys were hit by Raymond Davis’s bullets on their back has already raised serious doubts about the claim of self-defence being made by US Embassy and Davis himself.

    In the 1997 case, Gueorgui Makharadze, the Georgian ambassador in Washington, had killed an American teenager in a road accident. The then US president Bill Clinton had flatly refused to grant diplomatic immunity to the Georgian diplomat and consequently Makharadze was sentenced to 21 years by a US court.

    According to the New York Times, United States had exerted extreme pressure on the Georgian government to lift the diplomatic immunity for the ambassador even though it was not a deliberate shoot to death killing, but a car accident.

    Washington’s reaction was similar when Pakistan’s New York-based permanent representative to the UN, Munir Akram, got involved in a case involving his live-in girlfriend. In a minor case of very little significance in 1982, a North Korean diplomat grabbed a woman’s breasts in a park in Eastchester, outside New York City and then took shelter in his country’s UN mission for 10 months before he finally pleaded guilty of a minor charge and then left the country. Recommend

  • Pradip Gadwali
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:51AM

    Hang the criminal! If your ‘government’ backs off and prostrates before the Americans, topple those miserable lot!Recommend

  • Chris
    Feb 1, 2011 - 1:49AM

    It has been established that he did not enter Pakistan on a Diplomatic Visa. Secondly the “self defence” seems quite weak as the two alleged “robbers” were shot in their backs. Also the death of a third passer by who got ran over by the Raymond’s back up car has not led not to any arrests of that driver who took immunity in the US consulate. RAYMOND shot the victims , got out of the car and photographed their bodies. He was found with unlicensed ammunition galore. Raymond’s name is not confirmed by US embassy ( although they did say he is their employee!!!) Hello!!!!!!!!!!!!!….his identity is being deliberately hidden. People like Haris who commented above should note that raymond perhaps wasnt exactly out there to buy masala fish in Mozang chowngi…!!Recommend

  • Feb 6, 2011 - 11:09PM

    Countries like Pakistan and India are still not in a position to resist the pressure of an INTERNATIONAL WADERA. Almost a decade ago, when a Russian plane dropped weapons in indian state of Assam, the plane with crew was confiscated. But in just a few days when Russians build pressure the crew including aeroplane was permitted to leave India. The notable aspect of this incident is that India was facing a strong movement of insurgency in Assam in those days so supply of weapons to Assami’s was violation of international. The charge was extremely serious that the Russians were supplying weapons to the Assami insurgents. But no action was taken against then although they were neither diplomats nor they made any such claim like Davis but they were liberated.
    No doubt Davis and his friends who reached on the crime site after phone call committed a henoius crime but even than Davis will be released. In spite of high claims of U S Administration regarding human rights, practical reality is totally different. American after second world war replaced UK and France and are pursuing their old rotten policies based on exploitation. Althought the era of colonialsm has gone but through UNO and its allied agencies they are contolling the world order through intimidation and where feel necessary, tame the under-developed nations through internationa financial institutions. To be very soon in spite of high claims of pakistan’s ferderal and provincial governments Davis will rejoin his family in US. Recommend

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