British minister says Islamic veil should be banned in courts. PHOTO: REUTERS/ FILE
In comments likely to stir up an already emotive debate, Ken Clarke, a minister without portfolio who used to work as a criminal barrister, likened traditional female Islamic dress to being "in a kind of bag", and said he found it "a most peculiar costume for people to adopt in the 21st century."
"I think we do need a clear rule. I don't think a witness should be allowed to give evidence from behind a veil," Clarke, a former interior minister, told BBC radio.
"I can't see how on earth a judge and a jury can really appraise evidence when you're facing someone who is cloaked and is completely invisible to you. It's almost impossible to have a proper trial if one of the persons is in a kind of bag."
A judge's ruling in September that a Muslim woman could not give evidence at her trial wearing a full-face veil sparked debate about whether Britain should follow other European countries and ban veils in schools and public places.
Judge Peter Murphy said at the time he hoped parliament or a higher court would provide a definitive verdict "sooner rather than later".
Britain has so far steered clear of following the examples of France and Belgium, where it is illegal for women to wear full-face veils in public.
Clarke, who said he had no objection to anyone wearing what they liked outside the courtroom provided it was "decent", said it was vital for jurors to be able to observe a person's body language and facial expression to make a decision on whether they were telling the truth.
Face-coverings were therefore an obstacle to justice, he said.
"I actually think it undermines a trial and that's not based on any trace of islamophobia."
Cameron's government is considering how to better integrate Britain's 2.7 million Muslims without restricting their right to freedom of religious expression.
COMMENTS (19)
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" Ken Clarke said he found it “a most peculiar costume for people to adopt in the 21st century.”"
Its no problem for the people who are still living in the 8th century... and that's 8th century B.C
And the terrorists are helping the cause of the veil- http://tribune.com.pk/story/627371/terror-hunt-in-britain-suspect-escapes-wearing-a-burqa/
@I am a Khan: hehehehe...so if veil is to save women from lustful men, then I think the men from Islamic countries are most lustful in the entire world since most of the women in Islamic countries put on a veil. And could you please let us know if veil in Islamic countries is forced upon on women by women or 7th century mindset men?
@Saleem: In the same way liberal nude fanatics should leave Pakistan & go to America or where ever they want to promote vulgarity & nudity.
People who have a problem with this sensible suggestion by the British minister should leave the U.K. and go back to saudi, or land of pure or where ever else they came for. The U.K. is a tolerant, multicultural , progressive country. No place for fanatics here.
Women veiled in an Arab black robe, provoke the British public to use the most darling word of their English language.
In Germany there is an absolute ban on wearing face coverings, regardless of any religion issues.
We had the same problem long ago in Pakistan, when photo was not required for burqa-clad women on their passports, rather only a thumbprint. This was shamelessly misused from our country people, for instance they smuggled their sisters to England disguised as their wives in a burqa.
A similar problem is with Sikh men whose face is almost 90% hidden under the thick beard, mustache, the head with a heavy turban and sometimes even glasses. It is never easy for the immigration officers in Delhi to differentiate between Boota Singh and Makhan Singh, or when a Sardar returns to India clean shaved and the photo in passport is with full beard. I have heard very laughing stories from them.
A USA born grandson asks his grandfather very cutely, Dadda where is your mouth?.....and Dadda replies angrily =Oyyeeee.................! The Gora judge could ask the same question!
Western Men have already subjected their women to sub concious slavery by ensuring that their women take off their clothes for the pleasure of Men. Now they want to attack the dignity of Muslim women by telling them to remove their clothes. Who on earth is a Man to tell a Woman what to wear and what not to wear? Interestingly all the MPs who want to ban the Burkha are men, I have not seen even One western Woman MP who says she wants to ban the Burkha. In fact Theresa May (The UK home secretary) says she is not in favour of telling women what to wear and what not to wear but alas who will listen to her in a man dominated west.
Also interesting to note is that in the west, the majority of converts to Islam are western women, as they realise that Islam protects their dignity from their lustful men (and no its not for marriage purposes, the majority of western women converts to Islam are single, with no muslim man behind their conversion).
I m ALL for it . We need to look at the lady's face / expressions/ eyes / mouth etc., while speaking to 'her' .
I think the demand is just in a court of law where the facial expressions are very vital for the judge to see while noting evidence. If any person finds this unacceptable then they should leave the UK which is 'Christian' country and migrate to an Islamic country.
PS
And please Minister, there is nothing Islamic about the veil!! The hindu women equaly use the veil and us the Europeans have also lived the period with veils, ofcourse of our nobility class, not the prolotarians of your kind. The new generation from the developing countries could start with the see through veils if feel shy of fully exposing their face. .
Rex Minor
A veil is a mask and should be allowed in an open court as other defendents who try to hide their faces with hands if not with a cloth. However in closed courts she the veil should be banned so that the accused or the victim is identifiable. Furthermore the community leaders should be encouraged by the culture minister to discourage this practice among the people. And lastly the immigration minister introduce legslations if not present to prevent veiled individuals the grant of residence in the country.No one wants a judge and the jury to enter the court in veils either.
Rex Minor
@A-No.1:
I don't think this has anything to do with Christan values - just an attempt to give jury best possible basis for determining credibility of witness.
There is also another report of a Somali terrorist escaping in burqa.For the safety of the society it should be banned in public places.
@hammad: "one would guess that a govt. minister would have better things to do, then tell women, ‘how to wear there cloths’…" Read the news item carefully. He said that " he had no objection to anyone wearing what they liked outside the courtroom provided it was “decent”," His comment was only that veiled Muslims (men and women) should not be allowed to give evidence in a court of law. And, he is absolutely correct.
one would guess that a govt. minister would have better things to do, then tell women, 'how to wear there cloths'...
UK is a Christian kingdom with liberal values. The veil does not fit in anywhere and those who want to wear it in UK should take the criticism also as they are not integrating in the society that they have chosen to live in. If they feel strongly about their veiled values they can move back to countries where the veil is welcome. Stop abusing western values.
Now all liberals will be ecstatic as they had won a noble prize, while in actual its just an statement of a minister without portfolio.
Makes sense. More than 90% of communication is non-verbal. If the jury or judge cannot see her (or his - you never know who is under there) face, how can they judge if her testimony is reliable? Should be banned in public as well in Britain.
A sensible move.