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The right to wear a burqa
On April 11, in protest of the French ban, I changed my profile picture on Facebook to Mona Lisa in a niqab.
The writer works for Climate Action Network Europe in Brussels
For the past few weeks, I have been preoccupied with the debate around the French ban on the burqa, opposing it quite vehemently and vocally. The ban on veils in Belgium last year sparked my interest in the debate. On April 11, in protest of the French ban, I changed my profile picture on Facebook (as you do these days to register your protest) to Mona Lisa in a niqab, making her mysterious smile ever more mysterious. What was most revealing, and in a way shocking, was the reactions from many of my Muslim friends on my stance and the articles I posted.
I must start by stating that I’m not pro-burqa, but my argument is simple: No one has the right to tell a person how to dress — neither their family nor the state. I oppose the law banning the burqa for the same reasons I would oppose being told to wearing one.
By making a state law against something, you impose just one interpretation and deny freedom to all others. In France, it started with the 2004 law banning all religious apparel in schools but which mainly targeted the hijab that Muslim girls wear. And last year, the parliament voted on banning burqa-style Islamic veils. The French have been disingenuous about what their intent is and have banned what they call “covering of the face”. The women who defy the ban will be charged a €150 fine. It’s safe to say that the French have taken their hypocrisy and concept of ‘laïcité’ a bit too far.
I fail to see why a law needs to be passed in a country of many millions, which will apply to only about 2,000 people in France and in Belgium’s case a total of 30. How does a few women wearing burqas hurt anyone or impinge on anyone’s culture? The ban on the burqa has, in fact, exposed France’s growing intolerance towards Islam and is not rooted in French concerns over protection of its culture or oppression of women (we know how the French treat minorities). Sadly, it is deeply rooted in politics and Nicholas Sarkozy’s desire to appease the right.
Given Europe’s horrific past of oppressing religious and ethnic minority, the current political trends give Muslims and other minorities a cause to worry. It makes you wonder whether the burqa is the first in line for other similar laws in the future. If a society truly values diversity and freedom, then one must accept that there will be people who are different and may wish to express this through clothing. A society that tries to prevent such differentiation is essentially intolerant and conformist.
Many of my friends argued that it was ridiculous of me to support the ban since the burqa has become a symbol of oppression in Muslim society and has no place in the 21st century. To them, I would say that first, I try and keep my personal feelings and prejudices out of the matter and second, that the issue is not about what a burqa represents, but rather about what you are saying to a minority in your country about their freedom of expression.
That said, there is some validity to the argument that the burqa does reduce women to be seen as ‘things’ to be owned and kept hidden away. Wearing it restricts not only movement, but interaction, and this is used throughout the Muslim world to subjugate and repress women. But again, the point is that we tend to often view things from a personal lens and forget that it may not mean or represent the same to those who choose to wear such attire.
One friend argued: “Western countries have countless laws which impose such similar restrictions, but are conveniently forgotten. I can’t understand what the big fuss is about when most people agree that burqa is not a part of Islam but a cultural tradition. Would the same people who oppose this ban on burqa, oppose the ban on nudity and obscenity?”
Again, to counter that, one I would say that any ban or enforcement on clothing items (or lack thereof) from a state, is oppressive, even if the idea behind that is to rid society of oppressive elements within it. Such bans are counter-intuitive and counterproductive and will end up further alienating those who are already on the margins.
Then there is the argument that wearing a burqa is a security risk because it could be used by criminals as a cover to commit crimes, or that the identities of those who wear them are not known. And again, there is a rational response to that: That even if a few people misuse it, that doesn’t give the state carte blanche to criminalise it. Also, perhaps one should give all the instances where it has been misused in Europe in the past several years.
The case of Turkey is cited, since it also implemented a similar prohibition in 1997 — though 11 years later it was amended to make it more flexible. However, in Turkey’s case, the implications are different — it is a Muslim-majority country and, while a ban cannot be supported in any case, at least having such a prohibition in Turkey doesn’t impinge on a minority community’s freedom. There are more effective ways of dealing with such issues rather than bans, one example would be an intelligent, targeted public awareness campaign.
As Muslims, we get too caught up with emotions and what we associate the burqa with. The result is that we tend to not look at things objectively. Yes, the growing rate of burqas and niqabs in Muslim countries is a cause for alarm, but we are fighting the battle on the wrong continent and are doing a disservice to the Muslim minorities residing in Europe. Let’s get rid of the burqa where it poses problems — where it’s used as a tool to oppress women. Let’s take the battle to where it ought to be fought: South Asia and the Middle East — not by passing laws, but by creating a space for public discourse.
Published in The Express Tribune, April 15th, 2011.
Reader Comments (127)
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Can’t the French decide for themselves how to define what it means to be French? Who are we to tell them how to define their culture and assert their laws? Yes the French are tired of unwanted refugees from Third World countries but why should they be forced to accept them? We have all seen the periodic riots of unemployed Arab youth in Paris, Marseilles, Lyons or other French cities. I agree that the racism that Arabs suffer in France is unwarranted but the Arabs bring it on themselves when they are disproportionately involved in crimes and live on state social support which is state khayrat. If they were to work and integrate in society, the French would be less wary of foreigners in general and Arabs in particular. By the way, if the Arabs find things so oppressive in France, why are so many Arabs still so desperate to get there and live there- even illegaly. The truth is that their home countries in the Arab world ar far more oppressive. The French majority supports the veil ban in polls. Many want to ban the hijab too. Why should anyone not let them determine for themselves how they want their society to be?Recommend
Point is not of ”to be told by state” to what to wear. Point is “what should be the human-scape of public life in the cities”. Is it okay to have individuals amongst our midst, say at a marketplace, whom we are rendered unable to recognize? Is a woman, by wearing a veil, not violating the right of others in her roaming vicinity, by concealing her face? Should’nt direct interaction among the citizens in a public space be based on equity, in which each individual knows about others, at least as much, as he/she reveals about him/herself?
The kind of misplaced liberalism advocated as in this article by Ms Meera Ghani, is what I call naive liberalism. Blatant conservatism is less harmless than this kind of liberalism.Recommend
Last sentence in my last post should read: “Blatant conservatism is less harmful than this kind of liberalism”.Recommend
There seems to be a contradiction in the last paragraph of the claim which you’re asserting throughout your writing. Although your article has comprehensively dealt with various arguments against burqa but, inexplicably, your hatred against burqa is gleaming in the end while you’ve been continuously supporting those who wear burqa be it be any reason. That being said, I would just like to remind you that women who’re wearing this stuff in South Asia and Middle East aren’t necessarily being forced to do so. They might well have their personal discretion in doing so.Recommend
Nothing surprising here…scratch the surface and you will find the fundamentalist. The scarf I can understand, the shayla…alright but the all-encompassing burkha? You should be strengthening the hands of the governments in Europe and supporting the ban. There is nothing healthy about the burkha and the government has to intervene. You believe the government is being Islamophobic, I believe you are being a closet fundamentalist. Recommend
@ Meera
Before you started to pontificate about the treatment of 2000 burqa wearing Islamists in France, did you think about the atrocious treatment of Ahmadis, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs in the land of the pure. When did you last protest about the treatment of women in the land of the Wahabi Terrorism, SAUDI ARABIA, where men are allowed to marry four wives, women cannot drive nor can they step out of their homes barefaced. Probably that never occurs to you, because when Islamists practice discrimination, that is fine with you because you are a muslim. SUCH BAREFACED HYPOCRISY. Maybe you should have shown your Facebook profile photo (Mona Lisa in a niqab) to demonstrate your true credentials.Recommend
Wooh Wooh what a hot hot article this is ? what on earth will some one do such a looser act huh ? give me a single reason that can justify this “BAN”… Will its truly saying by the writer that its not about ban on burqa but its actually their fear from Islam which they have exercise in the past & they afraid from the history comeback…But if some one ask my opinion that’s not what they are banning but its actually something happening anonymously & it will goes on & on…No one can stop this all & all i can say …
“LAST IN THE PUDDING”….Recommend
Quick question – if your Islamic traditions are so precious – why go to Dar-ul-harb ? Recommend
” Let’s get rid of the burqa where it poses problems — where it’s used as a tool to oppress women. Let’s take the battle to where it ought to be fought”
This is exactly the people of France feel. Until there is an uniform consensus as to the burqa( full body and face veil, Taliban style) among Muslims, one is not sure it is a religious expression or not.
“A criminal lady caught in the act, wearing burqa. Police needs identification. She refuses to remove burqa under the guise of religious freedom. Solution?” One can go on in hypotheticals.
Freedom of religious expression and right to wear burqa in public places where humans interact with each other is not the same.
Banning head scarf? Too much, which I agree on that.
Every society lives by certain customs / cultural adaptations. Women wearing shorts in public places is frowned upon in PAK or punished in Saudi. Now can one claim cultural freedom?
Freedom of expression does not mean freedom of oppression which many Muslims agree that burqa does and some do not.
Where to draw the line depends on what the burqa represents today, especially after Taliban.
Even in Hadith in Ayisia’s case there was no uniformity. So let us be honest, what Burqa represents in mens point of view, and what it represents in women’s point of view.
Until one sees all Muslim women wear burqa, one can not accept the practice as religious freedom in covering ones face when they interact with others in public.
If the Muslim society wants to clad their women in Taliban style burqa, let them do it in their home or when they interact among themselves in private ceremony.
When I invite them to my home for a party I need to know who is behind the burqa.
Society is my home. Recommend
The religion practiced by the Maori people of the Polynesian Islands include an annual ritual of Human Sacrifice followed by the consumption of the corpse’s brain.
So I presume, if a Maori immigrates to France, he/she should be allowed to “freely practice his/her religion.” After all, Maoris will only be asking for “the freedom of religion” and “the right to express their culture and faith.”Recommend
This doesn’t make sense that champions of freedom and democracy are showing such curiosity and narrow minds while pushing the person against their will and banning the style of clothing what they want wear and then relate it to a particular religion or minority gives more oxygen to the flames already burning intensely within and moreover intensifies the emotions. I do consider the French president is ” Racist ”. Moving towards a stable and anti extremist environment in EU and for other nations as an example a better and objective approach should be adopted and everyone should be given the right to live life as they want rather than imposing things on anybody. And i totally agree with the idea of public campaign and awareness while addressing and reasoning with them the concern and implementation of security risks faced by today’s common man and society. Recommend
Why is it that atrocities go on in Muslim counties and no one changes their FB profile picture but as soon as a small thing occurs in a western country Kaboom…its as if the protesters themselves do not expect much from Muslim countries but they do from the west; its either that or the protestors are hypocrites.Recommend
@Ammar Ali Khan: Champions of Shariah already do that. What is your point? Islamic superior ideology can do that but inferior western ideology can’t? I would have thought your expectations from infidel inferior ideologies would be lesser.Recommend
So what is the point of this west bashing in a Pakistani newspaper? You are living in the West and discussing a Western issue, an issue related to France, what have we, the people of Pakistan to do with this? We have our burden of poverty, misery, terrorism, lawlesness and corruption to carry. Kindly write this in some French newspaper! And most of all throw away your confusion. You seem to be caught between the East and the West. Love Western style for yourself but ‘muslimness’ for your sisters in France. That is called hypocricy!Recommend
There are religious groups (sects) who use drugs (marijuana) for religious reasons. A minority of course probably less than the 2000 burqas in question. Does that mean marijuana should be made legal just to protect the rights of those few. Its not about the numbers its about what it stands for. btw muslims in europe are also demanding shariah law in europe. Ofcourse in a tiny minority why not allow that and turn France into bloody talibanistan. Recommend
@ all, Thank you for taking the time to read and comment on the article much appreciated. I feel a lot of the arguments I made got lost in the edits you can read the original piece on the Pak Tea House blog (I don’t know whether I’m allowed to share the link here).
Just wanted to make it very clear I vehemently protest injustices and ill treatment of minorities in Pakistan and other muslim countries equally if not more strongly. I don’t understand how people can make that assumption just by reading the article. My facebook profile changes constantly according the issues that I am concerned about.
Like I said I try to keep my personal feeling regarding the burqa out of the matter and am only looking at how this would play out for the muslim minorities in Europe (me being a part of that minority). When analyzing any situation you have understand the background for why it was done.
My opposition to the ban is based on the principle of liberty- being able to choose how I want to dress. I wouldn’t want to be it to be dictated by society or the State. I am not defending extremist Islamic ideology at all. In fact I have continuously stated that I vehemently oppose burqas because they objectify women and are tools for oppression. When it comes to extremist Islamic ideology there are many worse things than the burqa (e.g stoning someone for adultery, cutting off hands of a thief, blood money etc etc) that we need to be shouting about.
I think we as muslims really need to rethink some of these medieval practices that exist in our societies and openly condemn them. We need to change the current ideologies that enshrine these practices in our culture and we need to come up with better ways of ensuring that women rights become an integral part of our society. I also think that the ideology cant be tackled by laws, it requires a mindset change. And the burqa is just one of the manifestation of this mindset. Recommend
while you are at it ban the Turbans of the sikhs, skull caps of jews, cross of catholics and then we will see the true colour of bigoted liberals over here. France is a free country can do whatever they like I will go as far as to say if they want to send all muslims to gas chambers they have the liberty to do so HOWEVER! they should not then turn around and give lectures to the rest of the world about freedom no matter how many folds you try to hide this in it is plain islamophobia and who ever disagrees is a blind fool, their plan is doomed, it will only draw people closer to their islamic identity if not out of spirituality than in order to make cultural statement Recommend
The point author is making that since France is secular, modern, and there is freedom to wear anything and practise any religion.. hence there should not be any ban.. especially if someone chooses to wear it and the dress is not forced up on. (Ironic the expectation of muslim world from west).
Anyways, women who chooses to wear Burqa be it in France or for that matter any western country i think is being selfish. Wont you try to mix.. integrate.. know about western lifestyle and culture or just bad mouth their tradition and culture while reaping all benefits..
Its a two way street.
From India we are used to seeing muslim girls and women in Burqa but having lived in west we know the emphasis they put on confident body language.. eye contact during interviews.. expression. i find its too backward.
I also feel with numerous columns written about ban in France and other disturbances in europe.. but muslim intellectuals wont write even half the number of columns crticising the behaviour and oppresive laws of islamic world be it middle east/pakistan or even east asia .
@john – well saidRecommend
Notwithstanding the “atrocities” committed by Islamic states on all types people, including animals; Nobody should have the right to dress up like a bank robber and prowl the streets. The French are correct, as long as it is limited to enforcing dress codes in public. It is repulsive and invites a communal response toward Muslims. Increase the fine.Recommend
If a bunch of brazilians settle in Pakistan an decide to celebrate their Carnival festival on the streets in exactly the same way it’s done in brazil, you or anyone in Pakistan will not have any objection…correct?
If some foreigners decide to wear a 2 piece bikini, that will go down fine with everyone in Karachi, right ????
Saudi and many other countries have much stricter dress codes, but I have never seen anyone object to it….can you right an article for that as well??Recommend
France should pass a law banning the wearing of helmets for motorcyclists as it hides the person’s face.Recommend
Who is asking you to go to Paris! Go to halal locations like jeddah, Peshawar , Timbuktu, Bannu, North Waziristan …..Muslims are the eternal complainers. Recommend
If someone wants to wear burqa, they should go live in Saudi Arabia. In Saudi Arabia, women have to wear a burqa, else they cant get out of the house. Let the French decide on what they want in their country. Why are we getting upset? And who are we to decide what the majority in France want? So go live in Saudi where wearing the burqa is a lawRecommend
@author – even offices have dress codes….then why such fuss.
They are not asking you to strip naked, all they are asking is not to cover your face, which anyways most of the muslim women comply with.
Only a very small fraction of the Muslims actually cover faces. Can’t those 2000 Muslim women cooperate???
Are you not giving an impression that those small section of women are extremely rigid and non-cooperative??
In USA you can do much without a car. In such scenario, don’t women learn to drive??
It’s all about mindset…when someone chooses to settle in a country, he should be willing to adjust to the new environment.
Everyone who comes to middle east also has to follow dress codes, and that’s the it should be. You have decided to make a big deal out of it.Recommend
The author says – “Then there is the argument that wearing a burqa is a security risk because it could be used by criminals as a cover to commit crimes, or that the identities of those who wear them are not known. And again, there is a rational response to that: That even if a few people misuse it, that doesn’t give the state carte blanche to criminalise it.”
What’s so rational about the response given by the author.Recommend
Some, in fact many, actually all women have a right not to wear a Burqa.
Do Saudi Arabia,Iran, most of other Islamic lands (I recall a woman journalist in Sudan being convicted of wearing trousers, hold your breath, underneath her burqa) and parts of Pakistan care?
You bet not.
So what do women do? They comply with the local laws or avoid going to these areas altogether.
Those who want to exercise their right to don the Burqa are most welcome to the territories named above. After all France is not a ‘Jiyarat’ “Umrah’ or ‘Hajj’ destination, so there is no religious compulsion to go there and suffer a ‘violation of sartorial rights’.
And Hajj reminds me, if Hajj must be performed without a Burqa, should we not be protesting against this compulsion too.
I fail to see why a law needs to be passed in a country of many millions, which will apply to only about 2,000 people in France
You mean the rest of them are immune to the law and may wear the burqa whenever they want? Strange indeed. If that is the case I am with you.
The fact is all lawws apply only to a small deviant minority, After all what percentage of people are penalised for full nudity in public, but the law banning the same is still there.Recommend
I completely agree with your point of view. At one place you are abusing a small number of people, this wrong. At the other place you don’t do anything about it where it is used by a large number of people to oppress females like in Saudia Arabia. Everyone should have the right to wear what they wish as long as it’s not affecting anybody else.Recommend
Nice piece except the personal “opinion” that burka is a “oppressive tool” when infact it is the show of “skin” for “satisfaction” of men which is oppressive and humiliating to women.
Anyway it is a long topic and for now Goebels of the “west” are out on force on this issue propagating lies and those who are not well aware of the realities and real implications without their biases affecting their judgement are caught off guard.Recommend
France has a right to ban burqa if they want to. Will you allow nudist beaches in Pakistan if France revokes the ban on burqa?Recommend
I think Meera Ghani should start wearing burqa as protest. changing Face Book profile picture to monalisa and putting a status message is not enough. Also she should change her profile picture in ET with one wearing Veil.
If she agrees that wearing burqa is opressive for woman, then she should welcome this move. This is ridiculous to support someone’s right to be opressed. Going by this logic many old traditions like slavery/bonded labour cannot be banned. As they are violating the human right of a person to be slave.Recommend
This is really pathetic that some persons are making wearing or not wearing burqa as a choice of fashion, which it is not. Burqa has very strong political message. It denotes male dominance and supression of woman which should not have any place in today’s society.Recommend
I differ. Burqa is a prison where the women are in and men out. Let women be freed. Criticism of France is not right. I visit South Africa, where I escape from freezing cold of Europe. It is summer there and I see women walking on the beaches or shopping centers wearing revealing clothes, which is unthinkable in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. But I also see Muslim men with long beards and women in their burqas and chaddars enjoying the blue skies and fresh air. It is all a part of this ‘rainbow’ nation, which respects all customs and costumes. Wait until these people land in an Islamic country and suddenly rainbow becomes a dull all look alike costumes. Women are forced to attire like the Muslims and show ‘modest behavior that must adhere to Muslim culture and laws. It appears strange to me that this freedom of choice for women disappears the minute you enter such ‘pure’ lands, while taking that freedom for granted elsewhere. Is it fair that one side respects and allows Muslims the freedom of choice, but it is curtailed in Islamic lands? Before you condemn burka ban, look closer to your narrow minded society and laws.
Women are NOT men’s property to be hidden. Stop this one sided criticism. There are millions of Muslims in France and more want to come. Obviously there is something good that Muslims admire there.Recommend
@Meera,
“No one has the right to tell a person how to dress — neither their family nor the state. I oppose the law banning the burqa for the same reasons I would oppose being told to wearing one.”—–If noone has rights to tell a person how to dress,then…
1)School students won’t come to school in uniform.Do u want this??
2)Corporate employees won’t come to office in formal wear.Is it good??
3)If anyone goes nude in public,then noone can say anything.Acceptable to ur Islam??
A lot of injustice prevails in Islamic society and I don’t need it necessary to mention here.Try to eradicate it first.A citizen’s first duty is obey the rule and regulation of the country.Again France has not restricted speech or Media.These Burqa-clad Islamic terrorists create havoc in society,steal babies from hospitals and many more.Recommend
I do not support the ban but then my opinion does not matter – let’s leave it to the French to decide what works for them. We should start with our own home.Recommend
@ Author
Stupid argument madam, it is always countries security aspect comes as first preference rather than petty sentiments. Mind you one has to alive to decide what to wear, got my point.Recommend
@White Russian:
what would you say to a monk covering their mouth and nose (that is a religious custom so that no living being may enter their mouth/nose and die) or to people roaming in japan with their mouth/nose covered to avoid catching diseases in the tsunami hit area.????
It is all about singling out a minority for political gains i.e. Muslims to get their share in the conservative vote bank.
Period. Recommend
@All Indian
^^^ my above comment is for all of youRecommend
Should women moving around in revealing clothes also be banned???? As it may arouse a passer and entice him to rape her I.e. lead to a crime.Recommend
“On April 11, in protest of the French ban, I changed my profile picture on Facebook (as you do these days to register your protest) to Mona Lisa in a niqab, making ..”
Obvioulsy, the place you were revolting from was not too hot for revolution! LOL
Another armchair revolutionary in an air-conditioned room.
” internet nahi chalegi to revolution kaise hoga! “Recommend
@ANINDIAN: How silly of you to compare killing of a human by Maori people to a piece of cloth!! Shame on you. Recommend
All dress codes are worthless. Women should do exactly as they please.Recommend
@shockhorror: Meera or for that matter people like me who are against the ban are not supporting taliban or Saudis for their extremist views. There is no difference left between france and taliban because both are trying to impose their belief on others!!! People like meera and myself who don’t wear burqas are speaking up not because we believe in burqas but we believe in freedom of religion. So now France wants to come down to the level of those extremist muslims who are not letting Ahmadis worship freely!?! Recommend
@John:
No John, France is not getting rid of burqa where its being used for oppression! You have banned it for everyone..for my friends who wear it even when no one in their family or friends support it. See this banning of Burqa is definitely an attack on a religion which people like you are disguising under the label of ‘freeing oppressive woman’
If you were so concerned with helping oppressive woman…you would have looked at the reasons for them not able to come out of oppressive situations – lack of education, jobs , psychological help and general health facilities. If you were really looking to help the oppressive woman, you would have started some outreach program where oppressive females in niqab could call a number and seek help. Lets say 1990 would have called out of the 2000 who wear niqab…don’t you think this would have been effective?? Less expensive than trying to implement the ban law.
The fact you targeted a piece of cloth and trying to claim that you are liberating oppressive woman is pure RUBBISH! How can you think an uneducated and poor woman will become liberated just by revealing her face!?! OHHHH let me see..you will look into her eyes and hand her over all your money?!? You will bring her home to provide her the support she needs..Ahhh pious men!
BTW about the stealing bit..did Lindsay Lohan steal under the disguise of a burqa?? Stealing is mainly done in the world by people who don’t cover their face so stop trying to male stealing and niqab one issue.
John don’t quote countries who are struggling with human rights. Every country needs to look forward and towards countries with better human right records. Do you look at Saudi and PAK for your other laws too?? Has France just made Saudi and PAK an ideal state?? Why then keep quoting these countries for niqab. People living in these two states are not happy about the lack of freedom and would not want other countries to follow.
John how can you claim that many muslims believe that burqa is sign of oppression. Same extremist and intolerant thinking like Taliban. You both refuse to accept the other person belief and trying to impose what you feel right. God save us from Taliban and hidden Taliban like JOHN.
So one should not accept bikni till all woman in the world start wearing it or believe in wearing it??
Who is asking you to invite anyone? Trust me no one wants to meet an intolerant man like you. I am sue you already must be living alone..no friends and a lousy job. Please live alone with your insecurities and intolerance…and let other people live with freedom. Lock youself in your house if you can’t stand other humans. Recommend
@White Russian: First your name is very interesting..WHITE RUSSIAN. I hope people notice this and understand what your real face is. See one doesn’t need to see a real face to understand others..few words and choice of name tells it all!!
And my dear WHITE RUSSIAN, you will be glad to know that the talibans have the same opinion like you. They also think that its their right to tell others whats normal and what abnormal. They also think its their right to tell a woman that clothes(less or more) violates taliban men rights. See you feel violated when someone covers and the taliban feel violated when someone is not covered. You both are victimizing innocent females for your own belief. Stop this non sense of liberating females. A piece of cloth can not liberate a woman..only education and jobs can. Recommend
@Abhinav: No you stop the oppression by trying to tell us that Meera or I should start wearing a niqab if we are against the law. No we don’t wear the niqab and want the same freedom for the ones who wear it. In your head niqab is equal to oppression.in some female head it might be freedom from men like you? Imagine if some woman has to live near extremist like you? Someone who think its their business to tell others whats right or whats wrong. Do you stand on the road everyday and try to tell people what right or wrong they are doing? And before you write about someone else religion. go fix yours where young widows are treated like dogs. Fix your house first!Recommend
It’s an obvious tact to ostracize Muslims in the French community. Wake up and smell the discrimination. It’s a global virus. Things are going to get worse still so all the Muslims out there should get their game faces on. Endure, persevere, prevail. Recommend
its said that there will be a time soon when a Muslim would face difficulty in following his/her religion. whatever the person will do, he/she will be opposed by people from his/her own faith as well as by the believes from the other faith.
sadly, this time has come. Those of you who are supporting this ban on veils in france would very soon be campaigning against the veil in Pakistan too! Recommend
Pakistan has no problem to solve so please let them solve problems in france.Recommend
And for all those who have been writing crap about how its important to see someone else face to be able to interact..well this forum and other online forums have proved it that face is not important to interact! We all are holding a conversation/discussion without knowing anything about other person. If we can speak our point of views without seeing eachother face than I am sure we all can speak to a lady in niqab. Get rid of your prejudice. Its in the head of an intolerant man to demand to be able to see the face of other woman. Why should a woman be oppressed in showing you her face John & Abhinav? You & Talibans are the oppressors. Its amazing how both you and taliban use the words LIBERATING A WOMAN when they tell them what they should wear!!!!Recommend
@MS
banning burqa is attack on religion right?
then what is ” not waring burqa ” it is freedom given by religion is it?
so how does the above match???
sorry, you are not supposed to ask questions in islam i think????
he he he….
@MS, first learn to be a brave man
every body in the world knows – a piece of cloth does not liberate a woman.
Only few like you don’t know how to start the process of liberating woman.
Woman are always black mailed in society – for good or for bad.
Burqa is similar, she is black mailed at a young age ( black mail by fear of god?) again just for a piece of cloth.Recommend
@MS:
Excuse me, I don’t know whether you live in France or not, if so learn to accept countries security principals, whatever you may argue but when it comes to threat to ones life means everything falls behind. If it is not been in security angle I would have sided with you and the author. Always security first rest next, you know human life is invaluable, hope you appreciate.Recommend
When I went to visit my friend, he was chatting with his daughter. Immediately, on seeing me, he ordered her to go and put on a full veil before talking to me. For the next half an hour, she was chatting with me, with a burqa that covered from head to toe, letting eyes see through a veil.
Apparently my friend thought that my thoughts will be polluted seeing his daughter.
Next time, when my friend visited by house, in his presence, I asked my wife to remove the silver plates and spoons lying on the dining table. Or at least, cover the expensive plates with a cloth, I told her.
See, I did not want my weak-minded friend to covet and steal my property….Recommend
@amoghavarsha: What are you saying?? I don’t get your first half? clearly you don’t lnow what you are saying!!!! .
Islam does not impose niqab on females…actually females are asked not to cover face when they are at kaaba. Niqab has nothing to do with Islam but thats not the issue here. If someone wants to wear niqab or bikni..they both should have the freedom to do it.
Again showing your lack of knowledge and understanding. Quote me Quran line which says that don’t ask question? You Silly man!! Ou Prophet PBUH asked us hundred of years back to go as far as china for education!! Thats how progressive he was and its unfortunate that the muslims have forgotten his true teaching.
Its men like you who want to start the process of liberating a woman by telling her to shed clothes. Well start this liberation with your mother and sisters and let the decent females start liberation through education.
By assuming that I am a male you again show your fibble mind. I am an educated muslim woman! Check Mariya Suhail on linkedin and don’t you dare reply till you match my educational and professional achievements. Recommend
@MS
People like meera and myself who don’t wear burqas are speaking up not because we believe in burqas but we believe in freedom of religion.
Is that so? And which religion would that be?
A. In the case of Islam some bloggers have already po[nted out that the Holy Prophet(PBUH) said that women on reaching puberty must cover themselves excepting and he pointed at the hands and face.
B. And during Hajj all women must uncover their face.
C. And the Al-Azhar University ( Islamic University for the ignorant) in Cairo bans the veil on its campus.
In short, practice of Islam is not threatened by exposing your face,so which religion are you championing.Recommend
Calling the French intolerant doesnt ease the pain. I for one THEM intolerant when we on this side of the planet are doing the exact same. How many “liberal” western can you see in miniKskirts or bikinis on Karachi’s beaches? If we are not allowing them to dress up as they desire in our “Holy” state, why would they do so? Rationale does need to be taken into consideration. No wonder the French and Belgian ban is highly disrespectful and illogical, but so is our attitude. Tit for tat!Recommend
@Sheheryar Khan:
I might be incorrect, but I think it is mandated by law in Saudi Arabia and Iran. So I guess there women are being forced to wear the burqa and this means your argument is incorrect.Recommend
I am sick and tired of the enemies of islam infesting the comments section of tribune. I wonder why so many indians and other foreigners visit (and spew their poison) in a pakistani newspaper website.
Secondly I am tired of the Saudi bashing done by the enemies of Islam and the muslim apologetics saying that Saudi are extremists and we Liberal pakistanis are not.
The FACT is Islam is 70% correctly practiced in Saudi Arabia. The creed of the Saudis is absolutely correct. Moreover Saudi Arabia is the centre of Islam, just like Vatican is the centre for catholicism and Israel the centre for Judaism. How many non christians do you see in Vatican? Israel 100% applies Jewish laws and how many muslims are there in Israel and how well are muslims treated as minoriites in Israel? no one says a word about Israel.
In Saudi Arabia you have millions of non muslim foreigners enjoying a great quality of life and tax free earnings. There are hundreds of foreign non muslims companies in Saudi Arabia. So where does Saudi Arabia discriminate? They only apply Islamic laws. Mind you Saudi Arabia treats non muslims much better than Israel treats muslims.
Finally as France is not the centre of any religion, its comparision is with UAE, Egypt, Tunisia and other muslim countries who have never banned the western bikini. So why does france ban the Burkha? Why must every non muslim country compare itself to Saudi Arabia? As I said before Saudi Arabia is an Islamic Country and is the place which has the holiest Islamic Sites.
But non muslims will always make wrong comparisons and will NEVER be the friends of Islam and the practicing muslims as ALLAH has mentioned in the Glorious Quran. We see proof of the truth of the Quran every day from the comments of the non muslims bashing practicing muslims and pure Islam.Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
dear muslimah,
Since you are so professionally and academically qualified, will you please enlighten on all the good things that will happen to the world if all the women of the world choose to wear a niqab.
thanksRecommend
@Shock horror:
This is her point. Didn’t she say that Burqa should be banned in Southeast Asian countries such as Pakistan because its a sign of oppression by men in this region. She should have given the example Saudi Arabia considering the fact that “the land of Pure” don’t ask women legally to wear Burqa, either their men do or they themselves by choice do, however, in Saudi Arabia women are legally bound to do so. The point is that France isn’t Pakistan neither Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia or Pakistan don’t call themselves secular countries neither do they declare to be the protectors of women rights. The writer’s point being that if France declares to be different or better than these “oppressing” states, then perhaps it should also demonstrate as such. On the other hand it’s as oppressing as Saudi Arabia where wearing Burqa is a law regardless of women want to or not, in France not wearing a Burqa becomes a law regardless of whether women want to or not. I’ve read and seen women saying that if French govt won’t allow them to wear the veil, they won’t come out of their houses at all, so now how’s that for oppression???????? Recommend
First of all we should stand on our own feet and make Pakistan a successful Nation then we will be able to speak on int’l level, Right now we have our own problems to deal with. Although this is related to Islamic Ideology, but we can’t do anything right now first we have to concentrate on making this nation to make progress in all field of life on the basis of Islamic teachings.
With love from a Muslim :0Recommend
agreed no one has the right to tell anyone how to dress provided if its under modesty or in accordance with the norms of any society, a part from that covering face is not obligatory in Islam….if its then it should be must on the largest gathering of Muslim Ummah “Hajj”. The problem is our so called mullahs never preach our ppl on the enlightenment, diversity n modernisim of Islam, they always portrays Islam as the most rigid n difficult religion to practice n follow where as in reality the situation is other way round….we fail to understand the real essence of Islam.And that is why we are called extremists n fundamentalists by non-Muslims.Recommend
@hassan: mind your language and don’t use the word dear when talking to me. Plain simple mariya is enough.
Its because of sleazy men like you that woman choose to wear niqab because you leave no chance of being besharam and batameez. Its besharam men like you that woman choose not interact and stay in their communties. Stupid silly inssan..
Dear ka bacha…It’s not about what a woman can achieve or not achieve by dressing in a certain manner. Its about woman right to dress the way she wants!!! Be it a bikni or burqa! Let the power be with the females and not with men like you or sarkozy.
The oppression is that you men want to decide whats right and whats wrong! Recommend
@observer: I am championing the religion of Islam where i am responsible for my acts and which does not give anyone the right to JUDGE other person. The book clearly states that we should not harm/target anyone unless they stop us from practising our belief/religion. Go read the holy book again and this time try reading it with your mind and eyes open. I can quote you 100 lines from quran regarding men which you choose to ignore and seem to have just saved the content related to females! Amazing how you have saved lines regarding females puberty!Recommend
@MS ;; “A piece of cloth can not liberate a woman..only education and jobs can.” As if France is not providing education and job for its citizen ? .Did you analyse why these muslim immigrants went to france from Saudi or Pakistan in the first place ? Yes for better education or job or comfort or all three …
Before preaching to non muslim countries , go to Saudi arabia and change your own Muslim Ummah care taker Saudi to allow equal rights to muslim woman to drive cars or jobs or education.
There is a saying like this ” Clean your body before complaining of bad breadth of your neighbour” ….Recommend
Maybe this will make my stance clearer. Some part of my original piece were edited out: http://pakteahouse.net/2011/04/14/burqah-ban-a-womans-prespective/comment-page-1/#comment-57581Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
I can not make head or tail of your diatribe. Take a deep breath and listen to this,
If,
A, The Holy Prophet (pbuh) permitted uncoverd hands and faces, and
B. Hajj has to be performed without the Burqa, and
C. The Islamic Al-Azhar University bans the Burqa on its campus.
And Islam is not threatened by the above, how does it get endangered if France also bans the Burqa.
You may exhale/inhale now. And focus on responding to these issues alone.
And do read this too, not my invention.
“Ayesha (rad.i-Allahu anha) reported that Asma’ the daughter of Abu Bakr (rad.i-Allahuanhu) came to the Messenger of Allah while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: ‘O Asma’! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands.” [Abu Dawud]
source:http://www.livingislam.org/n/viie.html
:http://qa.sunnipath.com/issueview.asp?HD=7&ID=514&CATE=2Recommend
The reply of MS-Mariya to hassan is hilarious!!
Some comment threads can be so interesting…instead of discussing the issue, people end up in personal fights….LOLRecommend
@Henna Khan
The writer’s point being that if France declares to be different or better than these “oppressing” states, then perhaps it should also demonstrate as such.
Being liberal and secular does not absolve the state of the responsibility of proscribing extreme behaviour, Accordingly, France proscribes complete exposure i.e nudity, and complete cover up in public. Being liberal it allows the same within the four walls of your home.
I’ve read and seen women saying that if French govt won’t allow them to wear the veil, they won’t come out of their houses at all, so now how’s that for oppression????????
May be you are endowed with superior occular and auditory abilities. Be as it may, staying indoors is a matter of personal freedom and choice, I assure you the state will not interfere with their choice.
Incidentally, does Islam also prescribe a ban on women driving cars. May I have some references please.Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
For your benefit, I am reproducing what I have posted elsewhere. Give your comments please !!
Imagine a world where every lady irrespective of religion, all over the world, wears a burqa.
Imagine a world where every woman covers herself fully and views the world through the gauze of her veil.
It will usher in a world of peace, and bliss of the highest order.
Imagine how stress-free life will be once you have chosen to wear only one color of dress. A woman will need no more than a couple of black veiled dresses. And men will not require more than a couple of white dresses. No time wasted on shopping. No shopping trips and no shopping expenses.
There will be no competition in the textile industries.Cosmetic industries, Fashion houses will be closed. Adult industry will come crashing down, leading to promotion of virtuous life.
Movies based on dating or love at first sight? Forget it, no one call fall in love in with a fully covered figure. Hollywood and Bollywood and other woods…will come to a stand still. Since every woman is behind a veil, there will be no romance, no love, and marriage as an institution will be under stress.
Advertisements using women as an object of desire? No more ! A model with a fully covered face can’t be an object of desire. No more advertisements, no more marketing, and no more conspicuous consumption. People will buy only most essential things in life.
Since all ladies will be invisible, behind a black veil, males will lose incentive to dress up and impress the ladies. No more sports, arts or achievements.
Men and women like to push their limits of excellence for recognition, and for boosting one’s self-esteem. People have this basic need of being wanted and loved for what they can achieve. What is the point in achieving something, when no one can even see your face? Women will lose incentive in achieving anything and would prefer to sit at home, raising children, and serving the men at home.
This will bring in an effective segregation of women and men in society.
There will be no need other than basic need of food and shelter. Families will not incur any expense other than food and health. There will be no disparity of rich and poor.
Men will lose incentive to travel and they will realize that their needs to live a contented life are actually smaller. People can live off the produce of their lands, and they will soon replace the currency system with barter system.
People will spend lives preparing for their glorious after life.
No competition and no commerce. No shopping, no dressing up. No love, no break-up. No crime, no law. No stress, and full bliss!
There will be peace everywhere!Recommend
Why do other religious people have to abide Islamic Customs when they visit muslim countries?
Answer that and I will answer the burqua ban!Recommend
French is not against foreigners by any means. Foreigners needs to integrate with the mainstream. This crap of people migrating to other countries and creating a mini nation within is the problem. If it is so damn good where youe, why did you escape.
Muslims wants their lifestyle, culture, religion and crude practices from the middle ages to respected by all all the while not giving the same respect to others. They want to legalize honor killings in ther host countries, which will not be understood or tolerated by any progressive nation. Muslims are just another spec of cosmic dust like all others. Get off of this false sense of “honor”, there is no honor in killing others or for forcing youe will on others. There aren’t any virgins waiting for you in heaven.Recommend
@AnIndian:
Here is Canada I have joined a rally for solidarity along with my sikh roommate, because France had banned Turbans for Sikhs as well along with other religious symbols. I am glad I call Canada my home. Here a Sikh can wear a turban and a Muslim woman can wear a burqah. A Sikh can serve in police or military and can keep his turban (same color as the uniform cap). State (France or Taliban alike) should never dictate a citizen what to wear. You are comparing killing a human with wearing a burqah or a turban, get a life and be realistic. Maoris do not practice that anymore. French and British interfered all over the world by colonizing it. This is the cultural fallout of that. There are already more than 10% Muslims in France (majority are French born). With the population growth of Muslims in France, one day Muslims will reverse the ban for both Muslims and other religions.Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
@MS:
From among the all the nonsense of yours and rantings of MS-Mariya I found a sensible sentence from your comments.
Lock youself in your house if you can’t stand other humans – this is what your comment said about me.
Can one ask the women in Burqa to do the same, because that is what the burqa signifies:
that woman can not stand other man -when she claims it is her right to wear a burqa or
When man asks a woman to wear the burqa.
Go back and read the Hadith again. You will understand when, and why the burqa came into the practice.
I have no problem in Muslim women wearing all the burqa, in their home or among their men.
Society is my home, and I want to know who is coming into my home. Otherwise, they have to stand outside, and that is where the oppression, lack of jobs, failings of social interactions begin for muslim women.
If you want to break bread with me, come as equal as people all around my home. When my bread becomes stale, I will come to your home.
Please do not argue by saying bikini wearing and walking nude rights etc. No one in this forum is idiotic. Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
Uncalled for outburst at Hassan. Any educated person knows that that is the standard format of writing a letter. Welcome to the real world, and leaving Disneyland behind, if you are incapable of taking to people then dont present your opinion here to start off with since you are unable to listen to replies.
Having said that, the question was:
“Since you are so professionally and academically qualified, will you please enlighten on all the good things that will happen to the world if all the women of the world choose to wear a niqab.”
If you dont have an answer say so, there is no need to shirk the question.Recommend
You are talking as if Europe is suddenly unsafe for any set of people. NO, IT IS NOT!
You are just writing this article to get attention. Most of the leading minds in all fields have come from Europe in the past 2 or 3 centuries and that is NOT a coincidence.
That is because of the Freedom Europe gives to every single Human Being regardless of Religion, nationality or gender.
Your time would’ve been better employed if you would have written against the horrible laws and practices in Pakistan or around the world, rather than talk about the place which has taught the World a thing or two about Human Rights.
Congratulations, you have contributed to the hate-West campaign ,in the process of getting people to read your “insightful” article. This article, in a Pakistani newspaper, will do more harm than good. It’ll spread more hatred and intolerance, while not lowering the Islamophobia in Europe.
Your words have done more harm than good.Recommend
If one wears without any pressure and on her own, we should respect her right to wear burqa. Ban in france is ridiculous. This is the same foolishness shown by our extremist muslim who pressurise their womenfolk to wear the burqa.Recommend
@Umar:
It’s all fine that you stood in solidarity for something that happened in France but did you ever stand in solidarity for what happens in Muslim countries? When was the last time you stood with Christians for continued atrocities against them in this Pak land? Christians get burned alive and killed you know. This is much worst than banning some religious symbols. Yet you prefer to ignore it. Something tells me it’s not your solidarity with the Sikhs but you contempt for the west (or shall we say crusaders?). Enemy of my enemy is my friend, something like that.Recommend
@MS Mariya
Your most of the writing has no logical reasoning. If Islam doesn’t ask women to wear burqa (As challenged by you) then how banning burqa is against Islam? This ban is only against sick mentatlity where men want to enslave women.
You are personally attacking others without giving any reasonable argument. Your other logic about how well we are chatting in this comment section gives a very good Idea that how we will talk when everybody is veiled. We even don’t know who is male/female and what the real names are. I can make some posting under name Mariya and every one else will assume it is from you :) That is the world you want to live in (virtual world)
I appreciate Asad, he is at least saying what he thinks is right and is true based on his understanding. He is more logical than MS Mariya and Meera types, who know hypocrisy of their stand, but still persisting with it.Recommend
@altamash khan: Yes any educated person would know the standard format of writing which you don’t!! The standard format to address someone you don’t know is Mariya , Ms Mariya or Miss Mariya AND NOT dear muslimah. I provided my first name and expect to be referred by this name like in Real World! You are right, we are not living in a Disney world and no woman should be spoken to as a dear barbie doll and if its tough for your to accept than this is not the forum for you!!!Recommend
@Hassan: first tell me if this was written by you? I will reply after reading your response. Recommend
@Henna khan: Well said!!! You have provided answers to the questions being asked from me. Recommend
Modesty in dress is the requirement for Muslim women. The head scarf and the full neck to ankle dress fulfils this requirement and is not objected to. Having achieved this, the next barrier is to push for the full burqa and see if the French (European) nation will absorb this and if they do, then the next religious symbolic push will take place. In general terms it is accepted that the Muslim has adopted wearing his / her religion on their sleeve as a sign of defiance. Something others do not understand.
I completely endorse the French position after all its their country.Recommend
@ashok sai: Ohhh so it started with liberating poor females and now burqa is a security hazard. Can you please decide which excuse you want to stick with to oppress woman? I would understand a burqa ban in Israel, Pakistan or Russia which suffer from suicide bombing by females but FRANCE?! Where only less than 2000 females wear it! and not the majority population. Targeting a weak and poor population is pure intolerance. Recommend
@MS: You call it killing – they call it custom. Do you see some sense now, MS?
Because, religions says to do something, does not mean it should not be questioned.
@Umar: So, your idea of fighting back is by having more children. Ha Ha Ha… At least, you are admitting it. I congratulate you.
THINK BEYOND THE BAN…
I appreciate Meera Ghani ji in her outspoken resolute to fight the injustices of Islam from within. It takes great bravery to stand up for the truth. And the truth is: No religion is perfect. If you really respect your religion then you have to fight to weed out the inhumane and malicious practices in it.Recommend
wt happen if french banned burqa afterall when u r leaving in a european country then u must live like them…in pakistan every day women are raped,murdered , tortured and discriminated,,have u done anything about it,,,,,so please first look at urslf (i m also in it ) then tell others..what good have u done to the cristians and hindus living here in pakistan….people French are alot ahead of us in terms of standard of life, development and many more….so don’t hit ur head with the walls …..when a gal and a boy talk or just walk together we start back biting,they have affair , they always do this and that , what not we talk..this is us…..we just can tolerate….Recommend
I still cannot see how a certain ban in France has become the problem of pakistan all of a sudden. Just because they are penalizing women for covering themselves up head-to-toe doesnt mean Islam is at stake. If Islam is at stake it is because of our gross misinterpretations. And intellegentsia, intellectuals and above all “tolerant” people when talking about religion or religious ideology DO take a realistic and pragmatic approach. I will duly request you all to bring our religion down from the seventh sky and scrutinize it with human eyes.Recommend
@observer:
Well rather than indulging in ridiculing my ocular or auditory abilities, specially after considering the fact that you don’t know anything about their superiority or inferiority, if you had actually made an effort in making me understand your point, it would have helped me saving lot of trouble and you a lot of time in reading my ranting.
Now let’s regard what you said.
Accordingly, France proscribes complete exposure i.e nudity, and complete cover up in public. Being liberal it allows the same within the four walls of your home.
Last time I checked neither Pakistani nor Saudi govt have installed cameras inside their people’s homes to insure their dressing code. In Makkah, where no non-Muslim is allowed to enter, you see shops displaying gowns, night gowns, skirts, mini skirts and lingerie items. So who wear and buy them? Yes, the same Saudi women wear this stuff inside their homes who wear Burqas outside their homes. So Saudi govt actually gives the rights to their women as French govt to be naked or clad in Burqa once they’re inside their homes. Then doesn’t that make the Saudis “liberals”? No, that make them oppressors because they don’t allow women to wear whatever they wish to wear outside their homes as the French govt does.
Be as it may, staying indoors is a matter of personal freedom and choice, I assure you the state will not interfere with their choice.
But the state has already interfered with their choice of getting out when they interfered with their choice of attire.
Incidentally, does Islam also prescribe a ban on women driving cars. May I have some references please.
At which point in my above comments did you judge that I belong to that particular school of thought? I would really like to know that.
Most importantly you said, and I quote,
Being liberal and secular does not absolve the state of the responsibility of proscribing extreme behaviour.
So wearing Burqa is an extreme behaviour? Now let me tell all you who’re actually celebrating the ban on Burqa, this is not just about the Burqa, the Burqa is the first step to stop people of different religions from practising their religions. Few years ago, French govt or police or whatever you call them, asked a Hindu shopkeeper to remove the image of Swastika from his shop because it resembled the Nazi symbol. The shopkeeper refused to do so because he didn’t care about some 50-60 years old symbol, but he cared about his thousands of years old symbol that have brought him and people of his religion luck. Now you tell me who was extremist in that case? Burqa is in Islam since 1400 plus years, when has it ever been a symbol of extremism or oppression or all the lot of words that you try uselessly to allocate with???????????Recommend
Feel sorry for women kind. How easy it is for us to define our religious pride in name of veiling or unveling them. Nobody asks them what their choice is. As much as I am against the intolerance of France against full veil I am also against the muslim nations which forces veil. Unfortunately moral standards in different countries are different. Its a relative topic so there is no global solution. Moderation is the key and has to be honored by every nation. And for everybody here who does something in name of religion, please give give yourself a break. There is no religious foundation in world which puts such frivolous restrictions on human to appease GOD or ALLAH whomever you please. Many religious code of conducts are “man made” not “god made”. So blindly following them just makes us donkey and not a civilized human. As for the author great article. Recommend
@TO ALL SUPPORTERS OF BURQA:
For a moment: Forget about France, Forget about Ban…
Answer this Question, Sincerely: You see NO wrong in putting a woman in a bag, lifelong??? Do you think this practice is perfectly OK and should be encouraged?
Simply say Yes or No. Recommend
@John: Ofcourse talk about tolerance, outreach program or discussions about targeting the real issues of oppressive woman is nonsense for you!
‘’Can one ask the women in Burqa to do the same, because that is what the burqa signifies’’ UNBELIEVABLE!!! You got to be best buddies with Taliban! Both forcing woman to lock themselves if they can not dress the way you guys deem appropriate!! Just because in YOUR HEAD..burqa is equal to oppression or not being friendly enough does not mean it is! This is the same mentality Taliban have; they think that they know what’s appropriate and what’s not for a female!
John I don’t need to go back anywhere and read anything because I don’t impose my belief or insecurities on others. I don’t care what the other person do or wear as long I don’t get told to follow.
Men like you are the oppressors & abusers who want to control woman by defining what’s normal.
Thanks god for below statement ..it was such a relief to read that you don’t YET have issues with what people wear inside home. But I think my relief might not be long lived…oppressors never look inside for mental issues like Hitler.
‘’I have no problem in Muslim women wearing all the burqa, in their home or among their men’’
Have you ever thought once that may be this intolerant and interfering attitude of yours might be leading woman to cover themselves around you?!?
‘Society is my home, and I want to know who is coming into my home. Otherwise, they have to stand outside, and that is where the oppression, lack of jobs, failings of social interactions begin for muslim women’
Amazing how you have just claimed right to the whole SOCIETY along with the ultimate right to tell females what to wear. These above lines just show what an intolerant man you are..no regards for any belief. It was this thinking which lead to the persecution of Jews.
Your reply was all about YOU. What you deem right..what you feel right. So this liberating woman is just a disguise for your intolerance and insecurities. I have not said anything about being nude so don’t try to alter my statements. I am no weak woman in your society whom you can twist.
Yes bikni and burqa rights go together. Woman should have the right to wear both or what ever THEY DEEM APPROPRIATE! Not what Taliban or random john dick harry thinks is normal. Power is with the females and I support freedom – bikni or burqa. Recommend
@anindian: What nonsense!! What are you talking about? Most incoherent post i have come across. I have said nothing about killing! And go read my posts again with your eyes and mind open(if possible). I have only said that even though I don’t wear burqa I want this same freedom of dressing for females who believe in it! Why should you or anyone decide dress code for a woman? DO YOU SEE SOME SENSE NOW?!?!?!?
I have said in my post that this is not a religious requirement and therefor I dont wear it! This is about freedom to dress the way a woman deems RIGHT! Recommend
!anindian: Are you in your senses?? Did you read the article or the post? This is about woman freedom to wear burqa or bikni. If someone wants to wear bikni or revealing clothes, I am all in support as its their body and their personal choice. Same for someone who wants to wear burqa. Why are you talking like an extremist who just can not accept someone else different view of life. Burqa might be a garbage bag for you so fine..do you not have the freedom to not wear this garbage bag? So how can you not allow this same freedom to someone who likes to cover up. You dont like it..fine..close your eyes..change your direction, look down..look up…take a breath..and move on. No need to oppress someone.Recommend
@abhinav: No, its you without any logic or reason and you have not failed to impress me by repeating it again!
‘This ban is only against sick mentatlity where men want to enslave women’
So you are trying to claim now that you are liberating woman from sick mentality by taking away their right to dress? You try to save a woman from sick mentality by banning a piece of cloth! Are you joking!!! HYPOCRATE!!
As I mentioned earlier, if France was serious about helping oppressive woman from sick mentality, they should have targeted the reasons for them getting oppressed – LACK OF EDUCATION, LACK OF JOBS, LACK OF EXPOSURE. No but France choose to target a piece of cloth which a lot of females wear by CHOICE. I live in a muslim country and from experience of working with NGOs I know that 10-12 years of education has helped woman get out of oppressive situations. In most cases, just a job/home business will give her strength to get out of oppressive conditions. I can quote you million examples of liberation stories and trust me non of it involve removal of cloth.
Abhinav the issue of faceless females was raised by John who said he can not hold a conversation with burqa woman. We can hold a conversation without a face and the risk you just mentioned are applicable even when you are not wearing burqa. I can meet you face to face with a fake ID card and identity. So now what should we do about this?
You post was all but hypocrisy…trying to say that you are liberating woman by taking away their right to dress. Trying to say you are protecting woman from sick mentality when you show sick mentality yourself by claiming that you know what’s right for a woman.
‘It denotes male dominance and supression of woman which should not have any place in today’s society’
Above statement of yours is what MALE DOMINANCE is. The fact that as a male..you want to decide what’s IN and what’s OUT. You statement shows just how intolerant you are towards females who don’t fit into your criteria of normal. HYPOCRATE!!! And you try to act as a woman liberator!! Go fool yourselfRecommend
@MS, I dont know about others but it was me who did raise a point about interacting with a Burqa clad women.. may be in Indian subcontinent there isnt a problem.. i guess you see so many around.. and its not an issue..
But in west even for me coming from subcontinent.. it will be disconcerting to talk to or comunicate a lady in Burqa… how the hell i will have an interview.. without seeing her face..
her eyes.. what it means.. body language does coney a lot.
And yes the beigger question is integration in western society.. if you are there you have to integrate.. well its not compulsory.. but yours ethnic group is looked up on positively.. Learn it from Indians.. we enjoy ausee rules and we enjoy NBL of USA .. Recommend
For example .. a person is shy.. confident.. hesitant.. looks dodgy.. how to judge all of these if someone is in Burqa ???Recommend
I think you make a reasonable argument “No one has the right to tell a person how to dress”. Fine!
But, then consider this; Burqa in the Islamic World has been declard mandatory for all women. There are some who remain divided on this issue. However, the majority touting Sharia are in a way forcing women by making it mandatory.
Can we then not conclude that the Islam is forcing women to observe the Burqa/veil. Where is the choice? If the forebearers of Islam come out openly and declare that wearing of the hijab is entirely optional for both men and women then your arguments hold water.
Burqa and hijab is demeaning to women. As if to imply that Islamic males are all lechers and can’t control themeselves if they glance upon a woman. Then, it equally implies women have no feeling and can’t get excited by seeing a man. Either cover the man also or get rid of this chakenary.Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
Afterall, I dont want to reply you after reading your comments attacking individuals but since you replied me I bound to reply,
I just want to remind you that France is a NATO member, I believe it is more than enough to implement security restrictions.Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
yes, that was written by me!! Recommend
@Ron(Indian):
No mate we have a huge irritant to the east of our border.. which will soon be sorted InshaAllah.Recommend
@Henna Khan
this is not just about the Burqa, the Burqa is the first step to stop people of different religions from practising their religions.
If banning the Burqa is equal to stopping people from practicing Islam, then would you say,
A. That the ban on Burqa during the Hajj too interferes with practice of Islam.
B. The ban on Burqa on the campus of the Al Azhar University is a restriction on practice of Islam.
C. Women chosing not to wear the Burqa are not practicing Islam.
So wearing Burqa is an extreme behaviour?
If being completely uncovered in public is extreme behaviour, so is being completely covered, and that is why both are banned.Recommend
@MS
” Its men like you who want to start the process of liberating a woman by telling her to shed clothes. Well start this liberation with your mother and sisters and let the decent females start liberation through education ”
Ha ha ….when did i say women to remove clothes to be liberated.
read what I said once again….
Once u said that I should start liberation of women by sheding there clothes, there is no need to read your profile / bio data….he he he.
As for whether you are woman / man, i don’t care.
you gave refrence that – law banning burqa was against freedom of religious practice, so I said about practice of Islam. If Quran is so clear about burqa then why so much of confusion to ware not to ware. If Quran is so clear – why half ( may be more than half ) is agains burqa and rest is in favour of burqa.
First – ALL MUSLIMS – SHOULD DECIDE AND FOLLOW WHAT THEY WANT.
There is not so much of confusion in other religions.
Just read one of the guys writing – ” friend asking his daughter to cover herself before speaking to his friend ( who might be of his age ).
– This is INSULTING TO FRIENDSHIP itself. INSULTING TO BE CALLED A FRIEND.
– IT IS TOTAL UNFAIR ON THE PERSON.
Don’t u Think so, atleast you don’t require a good qualification to understand that.
what is use of education and qualification without understanding the knowledge in it.Recommend
@asok sai: The feelings about not replying is mutual.
Ahhhh I was soo touched by your sensitivity!! regarding me attacking other people. So how can a sensitive man like you not understand the feelings of woman who’s right to dress has been attacked? Why should I not attack back when intolerant men are trying to take away my rights.
Why this ban in France is no different to the bans imposed by Taliban? They both in their heads have justifications for the ban and no regard for females.
Sorry I lost you …what was the point of you writing about France and NATO? Your line regarding France being part of NATO is utter non sense. What has that got to do with France taking away 2000 woman right to dress?
Another silly post by a man who has noting else to write except for his insecurities, intolerance and prejudices. You think woman around the world are stupid to believe in this non sense of yours? Recommend
@akash: Ok so another man talking about his intolerance and prejudices. Clearly its not about liberating oppressive woman..its about you men getting a good view of females to be able to judge if she is shy, doggy, confident, khubsurat, hottie, etc.
What percentage of females take hijab in west? Lets say even if 10% start taking niqab/hijab..you still have plenty to interview for shyness!!!
For heaven sake akash, don’t try to quote one silly example to justify taking away rights of thousands. Of course the interviewer has the right to see the face especially if it’s a marketing job but the problem is that the oppressive woman you are pretending to liberate will never come to your office! She is too oppressed, uneducated and poor to seek help from police let alone apply job at your esteem office.
Akash I agree about the integration problem but niqab and integration are too different issues. It’s amazing how you are blaming a piece of cloth for every damn issue in this world. You are pretending to sort the issue of integration by banning niqab. Its not the niqab which prevents immigrants to integrate…first problem is the language which I think should be made compulsory for every immigrant to learn even if basic words. Second it’s natural to stick to your community (even among animals) when you go to a new place. The point is that how welcoming is the other country..i mean America has sign boards in Mexican language now! Ok I am not selfish to ask countries like France to spend more in integrating the immigrants but they should not alienate them by banning niqab. Trust me a helpline with 2 employees would have helped hundred oppressive females in taking off what ever part of cloth they don’t approve of.
I think the biggest problem this world is facing is men like you & and Taliban who are controlling woman clothes!Recommend
France is the country for French with its own history, values, tradition, and they have the right to pass the law in their own land don’t they?
If France criticizes on some law in Pakistan, then we will cry wolf as foreign meddling in our affairs but aren’t we not crossing the same line. If some one wants to wear a burqa, then perhaps Saudi Arabia is better choice for emigration, why to migrate to France in first place?
We expect others to respect our traditions, values and the rest…but when the question arises about respecting other’s norms/cultures/values; our “sense of human right” awakens. This is contradictory. Recommend
You have the right to wear burkha in your own country. Do Christian nuns have the right to wear their dress in Saudi Arabia? Answer that and you’ll have your answer. Muslims should stop being so hypocritical. Did the Christians or the Hindus raise a stink when Saudi Arabia stop them from practicing their religion? I’d advise you guys to clam up about your untenable demands and obey the laws of the land.Recommend
@MS Mariya: This is what happens when you are a self-centered narcissist. I responded to the person MS who said, “How silly of you to compare killing of a human by Maori people”. I world is not just you, my dear. Come out of your nut shell.
First of all, I said “bag”. You are using the word “garbage bag”.
Second of all: yes! I think there is a fundamental deficiency of sensibility, reason and intellect in a person who sees nothing wrong with this idea of cladding one sex in a mask.
For 1400 years there is this lop-sided system in place. How about role reversal? How about this for a change? Let men “choose” to be clad in a black cloth and be allowed to marry only one woman. Let woman practice polyandry. Let men not be allowed to drive cars. Men should not be allowed to go outside without female escort.Recommend
It will be a very interesting sight if all men and all women on the planet start wearing a burqa. Imagine a burqa-wearing hero in a film singing a song with a burqa-wearing heroine! We will have very funny situations if all 100% of the people are to wear burqas.Recommend
@akash:
@observer:
@amoghavarsha.ii:
@Pragmatist:
@AnIndian:
There was a time my mother used to tell me when their neighbour a hindu woman used to do purdah so much so that you can’t see any part of her body! Here we see so many hindus/Indian I am pleased to see your comments but kindly and respectfully please This sure is the right of a woman and man to choose what to wear if men wear three peice suit and fit a neck tie on top no problem, similarly a women can wear if she chooses to wear Burqa/chadar/shalwar kamees/ This world is neither French nor Pashto but this Universe is God’s place God will allow only those men and women who followed the life!!!Recommend
@V S S SARMA:
Imagine all the women in the planet wearing burqa. Then where is the question of films being made?
Imagine you cannot see the face of 50 percent of the population of the earth….I wonder why the champions of the burqa are not able to understand and elaborate on the merits of such a scenario…Recommend
@MS Mariya… Now clearly since you are highly educated (as you said in post above) you have to be personal and stoop at the level of name calling to other fellow commentators.
Finally i just want to say, I raised two points namely Burqa ban hindering communication and also it does hamper integration. I stand by it.
If people from my religion practise something old fashioned/regressive (which i know they do) and there is a ban on it.. i will welcome it… even if it involves my religion and even if it is their choice to practise it and regardless whether it is France or India.Recommend
@DIG:
Your views are noble indeed. But shouldn’t a Christian nun have the same rights in Saudi Arabia?Recommend
@DIG
This world is neither French nor Pashto but this Universe is God’s place God will allow only those men and women who followed the life!!!
What I have been trying to understand is , which life should men and women follow to be ‘allowed’ (presumably in heaven). Will it be,
A. Men and women who go bare faced on Hajj and on the campus of Al Azhar or elsewhere in the world.
B. Or only those who go around in shuttlecock burqas in France and elsewhere.
As you seem to know God’s will, kindly enlighten.Recommend
France has done it coz they r afraid of highly uprising trend to become muslim from other religions. France will be first muslim majority country in Europe in few decades. but they conservative dont know,
phonko’n se ye charagh bujaya ne jaye ga!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Truth has to come out and has to dominate finally. that’s wat happening practically.Recommend
@akash: GOD am I not surprised to read below words by you:
‘ I stand by it’
Of course you stand by what you think is right regardless of what a woman wants. Of course you stand by your arrogance and refuse to let a woman be free to choose. I mean isn’t this what the Taliban’s are doing. They stand by whatever they say and believe thus making million of females suffer. You men just cannot stop the oppression.
Akash don’t give me the education crap. I fight at the level the other person chooses to take it. It’s amazing how you don’t want people to get personal and yet you are banning PERSONAL right of thousands of woman to CHOOSE!!
We in India and Pakistan have made customs which need to be banned but we need to target the real issues causing the ridiculous customs and not ban a piece of cloth. Like the dowry system is the biggest problem in India & Pakistan. The reason was because men were bread earners and properties could only be passed to son. So how should we fight this problem??? Ban of some sort??? NO..this has been fought through education. Pakistan 75% population is still illiterate but the educated girls are topping in every damn exam, medical, engineering, business , css etc. My father made me educated and strong ka guys need to provide me a list of dowry to be considered. That’s how you fight custom. Fight darkness with light and not silly bans. Plus the woman of this era be it educated or uneducated need no man to show the way.Recommend
I have revised my below reply to ‘anindian’ because the tribune is not posting original one.
@anindian: bewakoof insaan MS is me and so is MS-Mariya. I added my first name later when people though that I am a man.
And go call you mother and sister dear…this is exactly what I have been trying to show that the problem is you MEN. You leave no chance of being sleavy and besharam. Why should a woman not cover herself in front of you? I mean you don’t know me and you call me dear..pata nahi what the hell you do with females who live nearby.
You come out of your nut shell brain which tells you that you have the right to call woman dear or tell her what to wear. Only eunuch goes around clapping and calling everyone dear?!?!?
Go read my post again with your nut shell brain. I have not said that a woman should be locked or not locked in anything. It’s a woman right to decide what she wants to wear…burqa or bikni. This is no different from Taliban brutal policies who have also taken woman right to dress.
I don’t understand what was the point of the last paragraph? This article is about giving female the freedom to dress the way she likes and should not be dictated by any man. There are females in this world who feel insecure around men like you who call them dear! Why should their right be taken away..so you can harass them?
The fact that you didn’t understand the article and my post shows your mental deficiency.
See the fact you say 1400 just shows that you are targeting a religion and this liberating woman is all non sense. I will not bother talking to you about my religion but will ask you to look at the religious customs you guys have been following for thousands of years! Our prophet married a widow to tell us that there is nothing wrong when your ancestors were burning widows. I can go on with the examples here because I have read your religious books but this article is not about religion. It’s about female’s right to choose and decide!
All you guys who have spoken against niqab are intolerant , prejudice and insecure like Taliban. Trying to fool us that you are fighting for the liberation of woman! Trying to fool us that its not about your prejudice but woman right to be free. You all are weak because rather than fighting the men who oppress woman..you pick poor uneducated woman as targets. Recommend
@ MS/MS- Mariya:
First of all: you are using your privilege of being a woman to cast out unparliamentary aspersions against us and able to go free only because we are gentlemen. Which shows in you a clear absence of Social Decorum.
Second of all: You say something. Then you then deny that you said it. Then claim you said both. Which shows in you a clear absence of the fundamental ability of Coherent Communication.
Third of all: For your apparently high “educational and professional achievements”, you don’t even understand English. When a University professor addresses a student as “Dear student” or when a student addresses faculty as “Dear professor” – it does not mean Sleazy/Besharam or whatever. Any person educated in a school/university in English medium knows that.
Your statement “Only eunuch goes around clapping and calling everyone dear?!?!?” only proves you have been exposed only to Eunuchs and not Schools/Universities. My heartfelt sympathies. I pity you. Its OK if you did not attend a school/university. But, there is something called a Dictionary. (There is a severe space and time constraint for me to attempt to explain what a dictionary is. Search in Google to get an idea about what it is) I recommend one for you. So that in future you can understand what an educated person is talking and also will be able to write sentences on your own without having to copy my phrases.
Fourthly, it is people like you who support evil practices in religion who are responsible for atrocities against women. NO religion is free from “evil practices”. I repeat NONE. Instead of fighting them, people like you want to perpetuate them in the name of “protecting religion”. Which shows in you a clear absence of Sincerity.
Fifthly, even if social customs says Sati (burning of widows) is acceptable; it is an evil practice and that is exactly why we have a BAN on it. Even if social customs says Burqa is acceptable; it is an evil practice and that is exactly why France has a BAN on it
Because religion (any religion) say’s something is OK does not make it OK. And, the French are among the few who understand this profound truth. I salute them for that.
A confident person who knows the topic under discussion and can synthesize chain-linked arguments does not try to degenerate a discussion into a personalized argument.If you want to debate/discuss based on facts, logic and reasoning: Do it. Else, Bye Bye.Recommend
@MS – Mariya:
The language you use is so crude and patently un-ladylike! The word “dear” in the subcontinent is not an amorous expression – as you presumptuously assumed. Many men use it – not that I approve of it – to address each other too. But there is no reason to stoop to such levels to drive home the point that you disapprove of it. Let us have some class in such discussions.
You guys obviously don’t understand the reasoning behind the ban. Men, yes men, masquerade as women under the burka. How does the security apparatus address it? Lift every burka and peer inside? Why doesn’t Saudi allow Christians to wear the nun’s outfit? Hypocrisy amongst Muslims is par for the course, I guess.Recommend
Mariya
I can give you two examples in India where the ban was implemented for social reform.
One is the tradition of Sati where women forced to be “volunteer” to die along with husband. There was opposition to this ban and many opposed on same ground that it is woman’s choice nobody is forcing her (we know how she was “not” forced)
The second point is dowry which is raised by you as well, it may not be illegal in Pakistan but India has a law to against it. Though the law is not strictly implemented and dowry is still cause of concern, but the ban has helped empowering the women and bride’s family and many have used it to sue their in-laws for ill treatment.
I think you agree that burqa is not a very good tradition and it is a tool for oppression. These women in France have been living there for some times (some were born in France) and got all the opportunity for education and empowerment to come out of it but there is still a mental block. So sometimes when you see despite all positive actions things are not improving, in this case hard steps are required. Taking theoretical and extreme view at personal freedom is nothing but a camouflage to continue this oppression.
The point you are repeating that men want woman to reveal their face because they have some perverted pleasure is seeing their face. This actually tells something about your psychology, you may be enjoying a lot by seeing men without face veil isn’t it?Recommend
@MS/MS – mariya:
For your apparently high “educational and professional achievements”, you don’t even understand English. When a University professor addresses a student as “Dear student” or when a student addresses faculty as “Dear professor” – it does not mean Sleazy/Besharam or whatever. Any person educated in a school/university in English medium knows that. Your statement “Only eunuch goes around clapping and calling everyone dear?!?!?” only proves you have been exposed only to them and not Schools/Universities. My heartfelt sympathies. Its OK if you did not attend a school/university. But, there is something called a Dictionary. (There is a severe space and time constraint for me to attempt to explain what a dictionary is. Search in Google to get an idea about what it is) I recommend one for you. So that in future you can understand what an educated person is talking and also will be able to write sentences on your own without having to copy my phrases.Recommend
Abhinav:
‘you may be enjoying a lot by seeing men without face veil isn’t it?’
Hahahahaha ..Rolling on the floor laughing after reading your above comment!
KNOCK KNOCK!! Come back to the real world. Since when did you start thinking that a woman enjoys seeing a man?? Or that man has been created by God to be admired ever?!? The fact you said this shows a lot about your psychology ,that you would WISH that woman without a veil admire you(men) I mean it must be soo tough for you to know if the woman in veil looked at you twice or not?!? If the woman in veil really did check you out!! Unbelievable!! Just to remind you…words like pervert, pedophile etc are used for men and not females!
Yes I have seen one example of Indian woman calling police to get the guy arrested for demanding dowry. The way it was telecasted on all channels showed that it’s a rare rare event. Banning dowry is a weak act and law. It must have been ordered by a man who really didn’t want this practice to end The only way dowry will end is through education and empowering of woman through jobs. I admire the number of Indian females working in IT and call centers..and I am sure they will end this custom in few years. Not because of a ban but because of education.
Btw it was you who wanted to judge someone by looks during interviews. Just shows how shallow you are to judge people by looks. I can judge your capabilities in an interview by your hand shake, confidence in your voice, choice of your words to describe your past and future, the nod of head, reasons you give for applying etc. I don’t know which office you work in but professional work place will apply above rules for interviews and looks don’t matter RATHER they should never matter.
Abhinav don’t try to act smart with me by telling me WHAT I THINK. That’s the problem with you men..you think you know what’s right and you think you know what we are thinking. I have clearly stated my thinking and I repeat that I believe in freedom of choice. My best friend came from a family where her aunts use to play tennis (in skirts) in Pakistan. A family where girls were told to get married early but rule the house with an iron fist. My friend and her sister have started taking niqab. I don’t want to go into the details of them going against their families and in laws to wear niqab but girls do choose to wear niqab. It was a hot topic in our family how my friend father tried to force her into taking off the niqab soo please don’t put all niqab wearers under the label of oppressed. Yes there are niqab weares who are forced to wear it but I am more concerned about the other things they get oppressed into doing . Lets concentrate on the real issues and not piece of cloth. Its insulting to any one intelligence when you men try to say that you are liberating woman by asking them to remove clothes. Recommend
Mariya,
Your big comment was again with no logical argument. Anti dowery act is hailed by all women activists as effective tool. So far I haven’t hear this argument that it is counter prodcutive or it is against the right of giving dowry. You didn’t respond about ban on Sati practice.
You are really funny, while you get upset if I guess what do you think but you write big comments doing the same about others!
Can you tell me honestly how many NON muslim women have you met who started wearing niqab? The pressure doesn’t come from home always, it comes from society as well (it is also known as peer pressure). In your friends case, girls may have started wearing niqab thinking they are doing some act of great service to their religion (which ofcourse is not the case). This is not the only case, there are several other cases as well where it is found that some times younger generation is more orthodox than their parents.
Removing veil is not same as removing cloths, all your comments and sloganeering notwithstanding.Recommend
@Pragmatist: Thanks for your acknowledgement. The purpose of my post was to be rude crude and mean. Why should the traffic be one way! You want to liberate a woman from oppressive men by taking off burqa yet expect them to be lady-like when face with personal attacks? When someone attacks my country and religion like ‘anindian’ did, I have every right to attack back with ferocity and low level the other person displayed. I admit all my rudeness in this forum plus the fact that I didn’t attack anyone’s country or religion.
I don’t know where you live or which part of the world you work but it’s not alright to call an unknown woman just DEAR. You know calling someone just DEAR is sleazy and cheap. In any professional environment around the world, you say Dear Ms Mariya or Dear Ms Suhail. But you don’t write DEAR alone unless you are frank with the other person. I don’t know if I should get upset or laugh about the fact that men call each other dear in the area you live? Are you serious? They must be very comfortable with each other to be saying it but in this forum we should restrain from using it as we don’t know each other. Recommend
Well let me put it that way, a Burqa gives a woman a choice to contact or interact with anyone whom she wants to contact or interact with, the Burqa clad woman just does not welcome everyone, and that’s I think every person’s right to put people on hold. The men just can’t take it………..Recommend
@anindian: GENTLEMAN?!? Excuse me?! What was gentleman about your previous post where you targeted MY RELIGION!, you targeted MY COUNTRY!, and above all you targeted MY RIGHTS to dress the way I deem appropriate!?!
You are the one who started personal attack and for me country and religion is personal matter. Not once have I targeted YOUR COUNTRY! Or YOUR RELGION(except sati reference for which I am not proud of). Had you stayed in your limits my keeping my country and religion off the article, I would have controlled my language too. For me, someone attacking my country is like attacking my mother. Even after such personal attacks from you, I controlled myself from reacting and saying nasty stuff about India or Hinduism.
Its amazing how you just can not stop your self from showing your incompetence. When a university teacher address his/her student he says DEAR STUDENT and not DEAR ONLY!!!! DO YOU GET IT !!!
The students reply by saying DEAR PROFESSOR and not just DEAR!!!! You used the word DEAR ONLY for me!! which is sleazy and low class. And on top of that you try to blame the other person.
In the professional world you address an unknown woman as DEAR Ms XYX and not DEAR!!! Like I am doing business with two companies in Agra and this is how we communicate:
Dear Mr Rajeev or Dear Mr Ankur
And they reply
Dear Madam or Dear Ms Suhail.
DO YOU GET IT OR NOT!!!!!
I feel sorry for the insult you are bringing to your teachers and community because you do not represent them at all.
Yes I come across all kind of people and the only ones who use the dear word are the ones I mentioned above!!!!!.
Yes exactly, an educated person would stick to the topic and have a healthy discussion but you clearly can’t do that. You started attacking my country and religion and expect others to mind their language. Recommend
@MS – Mariya,
You are only making a fool of yourself with your rancorous rantings.
Time and again you are proving your imbecility and incompetence in having a decorous, non-divergent and coherent argument. And worse, you are being untruthful.
In your above comments, you have claimed three times that I insulted your country. This is a lie. I repeat. A LIE. A LIE.
Show me one instance where I did that? And I will agree that you are not an illiterate.
This only proves you are dishonest and/or incompetent to read/write.Recommend
@MS – Mariya
Bravo! for putting up a good fight. but these low lives are not even worth it.
All these “Indians” you see here i’m sure are paid for this and there must be a cell in RAW HQ somewhere where these dits must be sitting and doing their jobs.Recommend
@MS – Mariya
English is clearly not your language, yet you choose to pontificate about it. In England, where the English language originated, the use is very clear. If you wish to address someone by the first name of an individual, say Mariya, you address them as Dear Mariya. You do not say Dear Miss Mariya. Similarly if you wish to address an individual by their surname, say Khan, you address them as Dear Miss Khan.
I doubt you have learnt anything as a result of your comments or counter comments from your adversaries, but, hopefully, you have learnt a little about the correct use of English. Recommend