Women not equal to men: Turkey's Erdogan
Speaking at a summit in Istanbul on justice for women, the devoutly Muslim president said that biological differences between women and men meant they cannot serve the same functions in life.
"Our religion (Islam) has defined a position for women (in society): motherhood," Erdogan told an audience of Turkish women including his own daughter Sumeyye.
"Some people can understand this, while others can't. You cannot explain this to feminists because they don't not accept the concept of motherhood."
He recalled: "I would kiss my mother's feet because they smelled of paradise. She would glance coyly and cry sometimes.
"Motherhood is something else."
He went on to say that women and men cannot be treated equally "because it is against human nature."
"Their characters, habits and physiques are different.... You cannot place a mother breastfeeding her baby on an equal footing with men.
"You cannot get women to do every kind of work men can do, as in Communist regimes.
"You cannot tell them to go out and dig the soil. This is against their delicate nature."
Erdogan was apparently referring to the practise during and after World War II for women in Communist states like the USSR to do heavy manual work in factories or in roles such as tram drivers.
The Islamic-rooted government of Erdogan has long been accused by critics of seeking to erode the country's secular principles and limiting the civil liberties of women.
Erdogan has also drawn the ire of feminist groups for declaring that every woman in Turkey should have three children and with proposals to limit abortion rights and the morning-after pill.
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@Heuristic: "And, the embryo starts breathing much earlier than 8 weeks, that is, before it turns into a fetus?" Wrong. Only the newborn starts breathing. Are talking about when the heart starts beating? If so, that takes place around four weeks. But you are right when you say, "Actually, human life begins at fertilization. So is it not murder, if abortion takes place after fertilization..." Yes, it is. But let the experts opine.
@Rex Minor: "He had no intention to denegrade (denigrate) women audience which included his wife and daughter." (Parentheses added.) You are absolutely right. But his detractors would like to interpret him like they want. By saying you cannot treat men and women equally, he actually meant that women have more honor. He exemplifies it by saying that he kisses the feat of his mother; as not to revere the mother is against human nature. No sane person will disagree that as a mother, the woman reaches the highest level of honor. This is not to say that otherwise women are not honorable. I could understand misinterpretation of his message, if he had said that women should be barred from certain types of work and that they should not receive equal remuneration for equal work. All he said in this regard is that women should not have to do digging of the soil and other such hard work but he did NOT decry it. Still those who oppose him are bent on misrepresenting him, which is sad; since to misconstrue is not the hallmark of intellectual honesty.
@Revere: "One thing is clear, for whatever reason, if women would like to have abortion, they should have it before the fetus starts breathing, after that it is murder, plain and simple." Actually, human life begins at fertilization. So is it not murder, if abortion takes place after fertilization? And, the embryo starts breathing much earlier than 8 weeks, that is, before it turns into a fetus?
While women and men differ physically and biologically, it does not mean that they do not deserve equal rights. Motherhood, in Islam, is a very respected institution. But I do not agree with what he says. Women and men deserve equal rights.
I am absolutely sick of the idea feminists have against Islam. I feel like they do not have a complete understanding of it. Islam allows women to work outside their homes, to drive cars, to carry out their own business transactions. It does not confine them to household chores alone. It says everyone should do their own work. Meaning men should contribute to the household chores as well. Moreover, if feminists think a women who chooses to bear her body is empowered then why isn't a woman who chooses to cover up?
@iffi: cc Sexton Blake Well said, now explain your intellect to others on this poster as well. The controversial but by and large the most popular muslim leader of the Nation which in its time dominated the iddle east and the European continent. He had no intention to denegrade women audience which included his wife and daughter. The man has the right to his opinion as we all have the right to agree or disagree.
Rex Minor..
@Rex Minor: "The President Thinking Out Loud" Dear Rex, The President should think more quietly. Admittedly he was addressing a Turkish audience, but his statement has gone viral in the West, and has not gone down well with at least 50% of the Western populace. President Erdogan may be conservative, but that is no excuse for extremely bad public relations in the 73% of world population, which is non-Islamic, place their women on a higher intellectual plane, and although motherhood is considered important do not consider their females to be merely breeding stock. Also, I prefer to kiss my mother's cheek rather than her feet.
@Raj - USA: You have not the faintest idea about Recep Tayyap Erdogan, the revolutionary underground leader, and the current President of Turkish republic, how he tackles feminists( his terminology) such as angela Merkel or Hillary clinton. He sent his daughters for higher education abroad because the Turkish universities would not allow admission to women with head dress. He is a conservative mussalman and this is how he was raised and brought up.
Rex Minor .
The biological differences between women and men meant they cannot serve the same functions in life.
“Our religion (Islam) has defined a position for women (in society):
Women and men cannot be treated equally “because it is against human nature.”
“Their characters, habits and physiques are different…. You cannot place a mother breastfeeding her baby on an equal footing with men.
i didn't see any disagreement with these points.
The President was simply thinking loudly. The man who has fought underground, is responsible for for declassifying the kemalist military and responsible for todays modern democratic Turkey, is simply aging. It matters not what he says but what he means and this is why the majority of his people revere him and love him. It was him that made the entire progressive muslim population in the middle east vying for democracy, the Turkish style, and brought the wrath of their dictatorial Governments. His Government is on track with reforms as stipulated by the European Union, and provides the largest contingent in NATO for the defense of Europe.
Rex Minor
@Mohammad S.:
You dont see where is Erdogan is wrong because you are viewing from the green glass spectacles
@vinsin: I am sure you didn't understand my words used in my comment and didn't read my comment completely and your words answer is simple,id est, "but due to the lack of exact teachings of,far from and lack of implementation of Islam in true and real manners and sense we muslims are being defamed in the world just due to the few handful extremists and international media is taking full advantage of it to defame the muslim".In the Western and European countries are women not living with Islamic limits? Follow and understand my these mentioned above words then decide that extremist muslims are just handful you portrayed before the world and must see percentage of extremist muslims in any societies of the world.
Turkish President should be an open minded person. Erdogan is a sick minded. World does not want this mentality any more.
@RZ: When did I say anything that he is taking away women rights? Every one knows Turkey is a secular country.
Alas, if only President Erdogan was correct. On the intellectual front I find my women-folk beat me on every count, and they have terrific babies as well. I will make an even bet that President Erdogen cannot beat that combination.
@goggi (Lahore): Goggi, you are right.
@cautious: "Turkey is slowly being drawn back into the Stone Age." Are you sure that women were not treated more fairly in the Stone Age? Modern treatment of women is more of a more recent cultural phenomena. In the Stone Age more than culture, biology was the determinant of women's status. Cheers!
Why not let women decide what they want to do instead of telling them what their "delicate natures" should or shouldn't do. Common sense.
@Manana: You are unnecessarily making an issue out of nothing I have said. Read my comment carefully: "He is only discouraging unwanted pregnancies and uninhibited abortions." This is not the place for campaigning for abortion rights.
@Manana: You are unnecessarily making an issue out of nothing I have said. Read my comment carefully: "He is only discouraging unwanted pregnancies and uninhibited abortions."
“You cannot tell them to go out and dig the soil"...............this is exactly what men are busy doing from time immemorial......... digging mass graves for those they kill every minute!
After failing to get entry in the European Union, he is now playing the Islamic card of which the Europeans always feared.
@Manana: Erdogan is not for banning abortion and knows there can be extenuating circumstances, some of which you mentioned. He is only discouraging women so that they avoid unwanted pregnancies in the first place. Many non-Turks do not know that birth control is widely practiced in Turkey and he is not against it. But he, at the same time, wants feminists to accept motherhood as natural to women. He encourages women, but never forces or would want to force them, to have up to three children. At least two children per family is required to maintain the going level of population. The third child would cover up for losses through early deaths and other mishaps. One thing is clear, for whatever reason, if women would like to have abortion, they should have it before the fetus starts breathing, after that it is murder, plain and simple.
@Revere: Thank you for your comments. I stand by what I have written. If Erdogan wanted to talk about his respect for women, he would have used different words to precisely express the same rather than mention the differences between the two sexes, feminists and so on. For one who heads a nation, his words ought to be chosen with care.
@Revere: What's wrong with wanting abortion rights? Is it better for a woman to abort or to force her to give birth to a baby who she does not want, a baby who would then face neglect and more. What if a woman is raped and gets pregnant.... You expect her to suffer even more by having that baby? What if the woman has already had 5 kids before and her body is on verge of collapse? What if the woman is actually a 13 year old who was forced to marry an old man and is now pregnant? What if a 15 year old has unprotected sex and is pregnant but she neither has financial resources or mental maturity to bring up a child?
Abortion is not a straight black or white issue.... Childbirth affects the entire life of a woman much more than a man, and there are several dimensions to the abortion issue.
before bashing this guy,take only a few seconds of giving a look to what he actually said.
For another representation of what Erdogan said, see: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkish-president-erdogan-says-gender-equality-against-nature.aspx?PageID=238&NID=74726&NewsCatID=338 Some quotes are given here: “In our beliefs, one kisses the feet of mothers. Paradise is next to the mother’s feet. That’s how we approach them,” he said at the time. He also reiterated an argument he voiced in the past, announcing: “You cannot bring women and men into equal positions; that is against nature because their nature is different.”
“For example, in work life, you cannot impose the same conditions on a pregnant woman as a man,” Erdoğan said.
@WB and @Vinsin: please read the article first and prove your your intellect after that. Only if you are able to comprehend, then alone you can comment here. No one is taking away the rights of women here. he is just showing people like you that there is a difference between two genders and each has their own place in society.
@lkhan: "Erdogan says men and women can not be treated equally “because it is against human nature” " This means they have different stations with regard to respect and role in society. It means women have to be respected more than men. Per illustration, as he respects his mother. "As for abortions, in secular states it seems the norm. Our world is over populated and growing, one should not encourage women to have large families, rather promote voluntary birth control.." He is only discouraging unwanted pregnancies and uninhibited abortions. He is not against birth control but equally is against feminists who would want to discourage motherhood. In this example, he only wants to limit abortion rights. This write up does not faithfully reproduce what he said. It is somewhat slanted to misrepresent his views.
@Sneha: Thank you Sneha. You put it clearly. We have no doubt about. Indian and Bangladeshi women proved themselves. I hope Pakistani women will follow suit.
@Revere: Please read the above article once again - Erdogan says men and women can not be treated equally "because it is against human nature" unquote. Such comparisons of the gender issue coming from a person of his position is absolutely unacceptable and uncalled for. His personal opinion he should apply in his home if his women will accept it, but not announce to the world. That he kissed his mother's feet is a very personal thing - in my opinion, not to be announce publicly. I for one would not kiss anyone's feet simply stated, and see no reason for it to bear any relevance either. I repeat, power and position makes most lose touch with the real world. As for abortions, in secular states it seems the norm. Our world is over populated and growing, one should not encourage women to have large families, rather promote voluntary birth control..
Erdogan is saying I revere the role of women as mothers. "“Their characters, habits and physiques are different…. You cannot place a mother breastfeeding her baby on an equal footing with men." He means such women are much higher in respect and in their "function" to use this word loosely, than men. "Function," may be replaced here for "responsibility." He did not explain but I believe here he is hinting at the indispensability of motherhood for the continuation of the human kind. His message is essentially against the feminists, who want abortion rights and those who do not want children. And, he is doing an anti-feminist campaign here to make sure Turkey does not get brainwashed by the feminists and consequently women refuse motherhood. Besides, he says, women should not be subject to toil as men. He is stating that as a recommendation and not as an absolute order or law. But nowhere does he ever say that they should not receive equal pay for equal work. Nor does he ever say that women should be barred from any type of work. Oh, objective and/or liberal people, please do not misinterpret and do not misrepresent.
Erdogan is living in past centuries. Power and politicians are a strange combination - men under the circumstances tend to lose all touch with ground reality. Whether in Turkey, Pakistan, Morocco or other developing parts of the world, women's lot is very harsh. Apart from reproducing siblings, looking after their homes, fetching water, firewood from afar in rural parts, they look after livestock and too work in the fields. In many parts you see women slogging while their male counterparts drink coffee or tea, chatting as if the world depended on them. It is time those who have an inch of forehead and grey cells in working order, show women the respect they are due and not talk utter rubbish.
@vinsin: Come on guys. First of all don't bring religion into every debate. Most of the comments are made here are not the directly response to his statement. Its typical of western mentality to have a go at Muslims in general. Who said women should not have right to live work, marry and justice etc. And not all the Muslims are extremist. How much you read or listen to non-western media?
There are extremist in all cultures and in all religions. What Muslims did in Spain many years ago was right? Of course not. What British (or should I say Christians) did in what we call a crusade, was that right? Of course not. What happen to Jewish in world war was right or what Jewish are doing in Palestine is justified? When British killed hundred of unarmed Sikhs in Punjab, India can be justified? Not at all.
So please understand what some is trying to say before jumping to a conclusion and stop brushing everyone with a same brush. Have a constructive conversation. God bless all of us.
@Aschraful Makhlooq: What about right to live, work, marry and justice? Most of the other religion has more rights that Islam and you can check the status of women in muslims countries by any international organisation. Most of the muslims I met were extremist, against secularism, human rights, women rights, child rights, animal rights, freedom of religion, religious building and clothing laws.
@RZ: You are so confused and illiterate that you cannot understand different between equal rights and equality.
In Islam no doubt the women have rights and the valuable place in the form of mother,sister and daughter much more than the other religions but as far as rights are concerned then Islam declares a man's share equal is to two women's share in the property and two women's witness is equal to one man but due to the lack of exact teachings of,far from and lack of implementation of Islam in true and real manners and sense we muslims are being defamed in the world just due to the few handful extremists and international media is taking full advantage of it to defame the muslims....................
@RZ:
"According to our highly educated feminists here, I am sure next time they will be rooting for mixed American Football teams as well as mixed Kabaddi teams. Or yet again next Olympics should be mixed also where men and women compete for the same title."
Like a typical Muslim you don't understand the difference between being different and being unequal.
Men an woman are different anatomically. But they're not different before the law. They are not different when it comes to their intellect.
As per the law they must be equal. There should be no discrimination.
Is that too difficult for you to understand?
According to our highly educated feminists here, I am sure next time they will be rooting for mixed American Football teams as well as mixed Kabaddi teams. Or yet again next Olympics should be mixed also where men and women compete for the same title. Oh no that’s not possible, because let me spell it out—men and women are not equal. There are certain things both can do equally good, but then there are some where one is better than the other.
@cautious: "Erdogan would have never had the guts to say that in front of Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel, or Margaret Thatcher."
Had he said this to Laila Ali, (Muhammad Ali's 27 year old daughter) he would have been knocked out unconscious.
Its very true that there are biological and physiological differences in the make of men and women. I don't think this difference hinders women to play their role in the society. No doubt some jobs required more physical strength but there is no any point that women can not do that job. We must believe in the equity and an equal opptyunity for women in the society.
He will change Turkey into another Pakistan.
I don't see where he is wrong, he is not undermining women. In fact he is emphasizing on how they are not equal because they are much more special. I understand that he has a history of suppressing women rights but in this particular article I am really failing to understand why he is coming under such fire.
men and women should operate under their roles defined by their cultural and religious boundaries none should dictate the other.
Of Course women and men are different as a matter of fact everyone is different whether men to men or women to men and that is genious of God who created that way. Some areas of life women or more practical than men and vice versa but they have equal rights and privileges as they are morally, physically, intellectually and in any field of life average equal. Men or Erdogan are good in exploiting to boost their superiority, Sir you are much inferior to Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel and numerous females intellectually or on workability. Get real Sir, on average male or female are equal and go kiss your wife's feet too.
Why are men all over most eager to define the role of women and how they should be treated? Let women decide for themselves what role they want to choose instead of pushing it down their throat.
The context in which he is putting it is actually true.. So lets not place it out of context..
What a regressing mindset. Offensive and insulting. "you cannot let them do all kinds of work men do" "this is against their delicate nature" . The same woman bears a baby 9 months in womb and goes through unbearable pain of childbirth for 24-48 hrs for such men more than three times. China resetly invented a child birth pain inducing machine for men. To make them understand what their woman go through. They couldn't even stand the pain for 15mins, forget 24-48hrs. So much for men are (superman) stronger,tougher than woman. Women are more dedicated,focused,hardworking towards their ambitions & goals then men. They excel in education,sports,art,science.etc While most men get distracted in girls,college life. Women aim to come first in their field. Woman are more than equal because in today's world she does what all men do. But along with that they also do do house work, gives birth to newlife, nurtures babies, imparts values and builds a family. That's an All rounder. Learn to respect woman.
He is turning out to be a modern version of Mohammad Tughlaq. Few days back he was rewriting the history and telling us that Muslims discovered America and not the Columbus. Now comes another jolt that man and woman can not be treated equal. Time is not too far when world leaders will start avoiding him.
He represents outdated and exploitve mindset.He is tinted by lot of corruption thus buddy with Nawz Sharif. The sooner Turkey gets rid of him the better.
Mr Erdogan needs to travel to Asian countries including India and learn that women have more energy than that given to men; ithe communists and non muslim Nations have managed to stretch the role of women from motherhood to farming and manufacturing on assembly lines. And if this is not enough undertaking forced sterilisation to prevent overgrowth of population.
Rex Minor
Turkey is slowly being drawn back into the Stone Age. Yeah - women aren't the same as men but that hasn't prevented them from performing in almost every possible job. It's nonsense that women should be confined to the job of child bearing and housecleaning - Erdogan would have never had the guts to say that in front of Hillary Clinton, Angela Merkel, or Margaret Thatcher.