Retrospective look: No hope of real change in Pakistan, says US academic
Professor Emeritus at Columbia University Ainslie Embree, editor in chief of the Encyclopedia of Asian History (1989), remarked that Pakistan has become the state that Jinnah never spoke of.
During the first constituent assembly in August 1947, Jinnah reiterated that the state had nothing to do with any citizen’s religion. However, contrary to his vision, minorities are not safe in Pakistan, Embree said, with Ahmadis and Christians mainly targeted among the minority groups.
In the last 30 years, it has often been said that Pakistan is ‘on the brink of disaster’ and is a failed state, Embree said. However, comparisons between Pakistan and states like India are unfair as Pakistan “has a mission to become a fully Islamic state”, he said. He argued that while Muslim rulers tried to protect Islamic culture, they did not focus on Muslim unity.
Embree argued that Pakistani people want a ruler who uses his power to spread Islam. “This is the tension that exists in Pakistan,” he said. At this point, there was laughter in the hall, which was filled to capacity. Embree said there is no hope of real change in Pakistan and only a revolution on the basis of Islam can come to Pakistan.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 17th, 2014.
COMMENTS (45)
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@pankaj: No I'm saying where there are flaws, there are unprecedented good things as well. It is a good idea to know your weak areas, but to say that those drawbacks are there because the people want this state to be a 'religious' state or something is just contradictory to the facts. People want this state to be run by qualified people who have expertise in the relevant fields.
The initial point was that there are great things in this country too, charity being one of them. So where the state fails to provide service, people play their part and help the community, if you don't believe me ask anyone else and they'll tell you how the culture of giving exists in Pakistan.
Tax is one thing, government still manages to tax the people (through indirect taxation), so that isn't even the point really. Yes there is corruption, there is corruption in many countries but in the past ten years we have seen a dramatic increase in the flow of information (in Pakistan), which is why it is becoming harder and harder for the officials to do corruption, here is where i think this problem will gradually fade away.
So I think it is time that Indians and Pakistanis also grow up and not dwell in these existential arguments and accept each other's existence and not portray each other as the biggest problem. As a Pakistani I don't think India is our biggest problem, can Indians say the same?
@kazmi: so you actually proving this analysis. by saying that your system is so bad that corrupts run it and no one can do anything! Dictatorship has failed in pak and so has the democracy! I am looking at facts leaving conclusion on you.
@Pankaj: Yes so finally here comes the confession, we have a corrupt political system. Basically there is corruption in the state departments. People do not trust the government with their tax money, and one can argue rightly so. Therefore they do not mind helping the poor through charitable institutions like Edhi foundation, SKCMH, ATS and so many others because they know that these foundations are trustworthy (run by honest people). But when it comes to trusting the government, they don't and hence they evade tax. So it is not about generosity when it comes to taxes, but you may not understand the situation here. Plus the tax collection authorities themselves are corrupt so that exacerbates the low tax to gdp ratio.
Only universal education (high school and above) can bring change. Nothing else can.
Try to understand this also: In a largely uneducated society, even the educated act as uneducated. Universal education (high school and above -- no use of primary education) changes the society at large. It brings tolerance, enlightenment, respect for law and discipline. Without universal education, there can be no Unity, Faith or Discipline.
If we all Pakistanis, regardless of their political and religious affiliation, stand up to demand education for all, at any cost, by all means necessary, as soon as possible, then and only then the change will start to come.
@Gp65: Literacy and education are not necessarily synonymous. Literacy implies development of critical thinking skills, education does not and can be acquired through rote learning without "scarring" the brain's ability to employ logic or inferential reasoning! Qadri and people of his ilk that you refer to are trained through latter learning strategies and thus pose an existential threat to mankind.
Who says there is no change? We are constantly changing but for worse.
@kazmi: Can you also provide statistics of Income Tax payments by pakistanis ? If they are so charitable they should be very generous in paying Income taxes as well.
@weirdity:
And you seem to be an ignorant. :)
@Sohaib: For your information Moon does not shine. It only shines with borrowed light.
@Gp65: MrGP I have written an academic research paper on Charity and indigenous development in Pakistan, so do not assume things. I will gladly provide you evidence; for your own consultation see: 1.Survey done by the Aga Khan Development Network in 1999 2."according to data reported by Bain & Company, and Pakistan Center for Philanthropy.Pakistanis contributed Rs.140 billion (US$1.7 billion), nearly 1% of the nation's gross domestic product of $170 billion in 2009 (India's was 0.6%)
If you go by statistics Pakistan is ONE of the most charitable nations, but here there is lack of documentation and research done on the amount of charity that is given. Therefore surveys show that the actual charity is far greater than the charity that is recorded.
I wonder why people conveniently forget what IK’s course of action was the sheer culmination of lawlessness which holding the country at sway! do quick to criticize IK for rescuing his workers on the face of police but would give a rat’s fart what the Bhutto & Sharif’s dynasties has been doing with this country! if Somebody stands up after decades of torpor better support him rather to heap calumny upon him who is trying to be the right side of the history! Period!
we have stood up for the change.....we are doing the hardwork...you are a spectator..just watch and see how Pakistan changes to naya pakistan
While he is right its not Jinnah's Pakistan, but he absolutely talk rubbish about taliban style revolution, no chance! I cant blame him when most of his experience in south asia was in India not Pakistan. He is also wrong people want a ruler who wish to impose Islamic laws, Pakistani laws already Islamic in nature, Pakistani people have never voted for religious parties baring few conservative pockets!
Its sure sham democracy has to go and people will change that, a military coup may be possible but no taliban take over!
@kazmi: Please provide verifiable evidence that Pakistan is a country that gives the most charity in the world. Do not blindly believe what Imran Khan says.
ET mods - when you allow someone to publish out right lies, pkease allow a factual rebuttal.
@Bakhtiyar Ghazi Khan: Russia invaded Pakistan - rewriting world history eh?
As far as wars with India, please listen to your own war hero Air marshal Asghar Khan (retired) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K57q_914QAU he says in no uncertain terms that all wars with India were started by Pakistan
"At this point, there was laughter in the hall..." The humour is lost on me, can someone guide me as to what the funny part was?
I would like to remind everyone that homotopy theory was developed by Zia Ul Haq in the gullies of Peshawar before it was stolen and deformed continuously by corporate American criminals and sold as top-shelf Ivy League produce. This is a travesty that Obama must right before it's too late.
@Rao Amjad Ali: "As for religious intolerance, it is directly proportional to the level of literacy in a country and Pakistan is no exception. As state educational programs improve so will the democracy deficit. "
Were the lawyers who threw rose petals on Mumtaz Qadri illiterate?Was the Lahore bar full of illiterates when it banned Shezaan juice? Was the parliament illiterate when it passed 2nd amendment?
every country looks out for its interest, only difference is those interest are for sale to highest bidder in Pakistan. why not start the blame with those who accept the bribes and those who bring those corrupt people into power.
This so called Academic doesn't know what he's talking about; if Pakistanis wanted Pakistan to become a "fully Islamic state" then Pakistanis would have voted for Islamist parties -but the fact remains that Islamist parties have never won an election in Pakistan and in the last two elections they didn't get more than 3% of the popular vote.
PMLN and PTI aren't Islamist parties either, they're moderate parties with an emphasis on Islam whereas PPP is a leftist party.
These 'analysts' always love to lecture and insult Muslim countries without knowing the on-the-ground reality. Pakistan was a prosperous, industrialized country before it was invaded 4 times (3 times by India, and once by Russia) and split in half (with full US support). Current Pakistan is still under US/NATO influence and domination.
Many people do not want to see a strong Muslim nation rise. Analysts in US, Israel, and India talk of the disintegration and collapse of Pakistan every year, yet we are still here.
Only by the blessing of God almighty is this great country able to stand against its multitude of enemies. All Pakistanis regardless of religion, heritage, language, and race are united.
You know what, i don't even feel like responding to this US analyst. All their skills of analysis, and they come up with this, why can't they get this through their heads that Religion is NOT a problem for us, religion guides us and tells us to use our brains where necessary. Religion tells us to be selfless and selflessness leads to sovereignty.
They say that it is one thing to lie but another to start believing in your own lies and propaganda by US media.
I feel sad for you that you are blind to so many things and only look at small examples that fill your minds. Pakistan is a nation that gives the MOST charity to it's people, USA should be worried about the capitalistic structure it has in place that is bound to collapse at one point or another, focus on your own wealth redistribution mechanisms that need to be in place to prevent a total economic collapse.
@Zia Muhammad: Lots of anti American blather but nothing which says why the Professor was incorrect. From my perceptive the Professor hasn't said anything that was factually incorrect 1) Pakistan isn't the country that Jinnah envisioned 2) Minorities are persecuted in Pakistan and 3) Pakistan has been on the verge of being a failed state for 30 years. Whether or not Pakistan has any chance of making meaningful change maybe debatable but so long as Pakistan is stuck in the Muslim State mentality I suspect the Professors conclusion maybe correct.
Jinnah also did not foresee a nuclear capable Pakistan or Pakistani doctors saving millions of American lives each year, sustaining the health care system of the US, its under-served communities in particular, or Pakistani soldiers being engaged in peacekeeping and/or quelling civil strife in a number of flash points, especially in Africa.
As for religious intolerance, it is directly proportional to the level of literacy in a country and Pakistan is no exception. As state educational programs improve so will the democracy deficit.
The good professor will do well to educate Americans on issues relating to race relations which require a much more tolerant mindset among white Americans, many of whom are some of the most decent human beings that I have ever met.
@ Haider Even if 90% of the people of Pakistan want peace it is the 10% who are extremist will drive us to militant islamic revolution. The problem is the 90% are apathetic to get involved to make a real positive change.
@Blunt: " bringing, supporting and training militants from all over the world to use them in their war against USSR and just abandon them on the face of Pakistan once their interests are done." Don't try to peddle that lie. Once Pakistani army saw that USSR was defeated by the west using the mujaheddin, they were itching to turn those terrorists into Jammu and Kashmir. They were the ones that wanted the US to leave quickly so that their Jammu and Kashmir project could be quickly initiated. Let's see if the ET mods publish this as ET has increasingly been cowed down by the military establishment after the Hamid Mir episode.
Americans are always told that Pakistani schools teach extremism and brainwash children into being anti-Western, however this article proves that anti-Pakistanism is the the staple of higher learning institutions in the US, who have a symbiotic relationship on this topic with Washington think tanks and the media.
It is a well thought out strategy to brainwash Americans into beliveing that Pakistan and its people are a threat to them, so that they will support any potential attack on Pakistan by the US and/or India.
Ainslie Embree ( ??? ) talking on Pakistan........when the people in the hall started laughing....do you blame them.
+++The point of the matter is that this was a topic discussed in a top university in the west. +++
And it was discussed in a hall 'which was filled to capacity'. They certainly seem interested.
As they say in marketing "there is no such thing as bad publicity". At least they are talking about you! LOL
+++The question you have to ask is whether this topic has been or will ever be discussed in a university in Pakistan?+++
Yes, it has.
+++A healthy debate never hurt any one.+++
True.
In the spririt of healthy debate, lets first have a look here Proff Embree is coming from.
Ainslie Thomas Embree (born January 1, 1921) is an American Indologist and historian.
Embree was born in Nova Scotia, Canada, and studied at Columbia University in New York City where he received his bachelor degree in 1941, and bachelor of divinity at adjacent Union Theological Seminary. He received his Ph.D. in history from Columbia in 1960. From 1948 until 1958 he taught at the Christian College in Indore, India.
He returned to Columbia University and after receiving his PhD there stayed on at Columbia for most of the rest of his career. He chaired the history department and served in a number of other administrative posts at Columbia, including acting dean of the School of International and Public Affairs.
He returned to India for several study trips, and for two years served as Cultural Counselor in the US Embassy at Delhi during the administration of US President Jimmy Carter.
He retired in 1991, but continued to teach at Columbia, Brown University and Johns Hopkins, SAIS.
'tribune' I am proud of you.
The point of the matter is that this was a topic discussed in a top university in the west. The question you have to ask is whether this topic has been or will ever be discussed in a university in Pakistan? A healthy debate never hurt any one.
@James: Yours is the best comment on this news item.
@James Cmon man voice of few people is never a voice of a country....People of Pakistan want peace with India.Like In India every bad thing happens Pakistan is to be blamed...We have learnt this from our neighbours
Pakistani people want a ruler who uses his power to spread Islam Who's this Ms. Embree to speak on behalf of 200 million Paksitani people? But I can see where it is coming from as it is the picture which seems to the one sitting thousands of miles away and pretending to be the authority on the matters of Pakistan.
In the last 30 years, it has often been said that Pakistan is ‘on the brink of disaster’ Can they please elaborate their 'contribution' in this disaster by supporting the dictatorships of Zia and Musharraf, bringing, supporting and training militants from all over the world to use them in their war against USSR and just abandon them on the face of Pakistan once their interests are done.
A flawed and run of the mill analysis. The analyst failed to mention thee number of religious persons elected in the country's Parliament. it's negligible. This reflects the true mindset of the people. Americans are filled with Islamophobia and this has effected their sense of reasoning. in US a large number of senetors subscribe to hard line Christianity. If it's OK with US then why not with Pakistan?
India is behind this.....
Why can't the US just keep it's nose out of everyone else's business?
@Zia Muhammad This is not Arab country or Afghan to marginalize this nation anymore..
Really? if that is so then why pakistan is called a failed state. Afghanistan is progressing towards prosperity whether you like it or not and indeed it is very far from being called a failed-state!
You also picked on Arab countires.. million of pakistanis work in those Arab countries that you think are marginalized!
I am afraid that the analysis might be true in pakistans case. Even though i am a proponent of separating religion from the state, i fear any substantial revolution to come will sadly be a militant hardline islamic revolution.
I partially disagree with the analysis of Prof. Embree. Although it is crystal clear that Pakistan has not come up to the dream of her founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah, and this also true that it has been o the verge of being proclaimed as a failed (Banana-State) at times and again. But it is quite baseless to blame the people of Pakistan to have demanded that Islamic System of Governance or even that they demand a ruler who could impose that. I, being a responsible citizen, say that Pakistani People want a progressive, democratic and liberal Pakistan where there is no any difference of caste, color and faith. If we have not been given a quiet time to practice what we dream of, does not mean that we don't have any vision of actual Pakistan. No any nation has fought so bravely against the most powerful enemies in the name of extremism, autocracy, corruption and much more as Pakistani nation has.
@Zia Muhammad: Not sure what you are talking about but you seem to be on a roll.:-)
Look what all you did to Natives of the land you occupied. History records that the biggest genocide did not take place in Hitlers Germany but in the United Stated of America.So stop lecturing the world.I dare you print my comments.Not printing will violate code of Journalistic ethics.
Always a wrong analysis done by US analyst. This is not Arab country or Afghan to marginalize this nation anymore... . We are at first hand sick of your so-called "democracy" to kill people around the world, to plunder the nations for "oil". Pakistan is better than US, in many aspects , its not conglomerate of "Corporates", like an apple eaten up from from Inside. Please fix your home first before doing analysis and guess the wishes of "Pakistani People" .. ... and knowing the future of Nation.
We never lose hope.............still chance for change and inshaAllah change will come in Pakistan.....Pakitsan will grow and shine like moon..