Ahmadis fear another attack after intimidation
The residents of F block, Satellite Town fear for their safety after a number of banners cropped up, demanding that Ahmadis leave the area and terming the community’s activities “unconstitutional”.
The banners are anonymous, though their demands are clear: for Ahmadis to cease all acts of worship in F block.
The Ahmadi community now fears a recurrence of recent attacks on their community, such as in May 2010 in Lahore when 93 people were killed.
Sherjeel Mir, who leads the campaign against the minority, calls Ahmadis ‘Qadianis’ – a term with pejorative connotations. “The Qadianis, a few years ago, purchased a building in Satellite Town from their own people and set up a worship place, in addition to carrying out preaching in the residential areas, creating problems for neighbours”, he says.
Mir says that he has no objections to any community living in the area; his problem is with the congregation of religious groups. He adds that Ahmadis have put up barriers and posted private guards on the main road adjacent to the hospital. Mir, a businessman, even claims the Ahmadi community has snipers on the rooftop of the building, which he terms a “fortress”.
Alarmingly, he adds that if there are delays in dealing with the problem, there could be serious repercussions.
A number of Ahmadis, when interviewed, say they have done no wrong.
“The building was built after Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya purchased the land. Being a registered organisation, and under the relevant rules, they can carry out worship in the building”, said a senior member of Ahmadi community, who asked not to be identified.
The man added that moveable barriers and a few young security guards were arranged every Friday after last year’s attack in Lahore. The district administration granted permission for this.
“We have removed the barriers and young guards from the main road in front of our building after some people objected to our security measures”, he said.
The community member also justified shifting premises, as the community had previously gathered at a building near Committee Chowk on Benazir Bhutto Road.
He emphasised that his community had committed no unconstitutional or unlawful activities and pleaded for the hate campaign to stop so Ahmadis could feel safe living in the area.
Superintendent of Police for Rawal Town area Malik Matloob Ahmed ruled out any chance the law and order situation might turn sour.
Ahmed said he had referred both sides to contact either the town municipal administrator or the DCO to establish whether the building purchased by the Ahmadis was a residential building or a place of worship. The police will be in a better position to tackle the issue after the determination of the actual status of the building, he added. The SP also said the banners and hoardings against Ahmadis would be removed.
Published in The Express Tribune, November 11th, 2011.
COMMENTS (165)
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@Truth: this is not their official website. the official one is www.alislam.org get your facts right.
@Shamim Shaikh: We dont need any sertificate to call themself a muslim and you even anybody dont have a right to say anyone that u r not muslim.we are alhamdolilah Muslim and we will inshallah till dead
I can not believe that in this day and age this ignorance is so prevalent. O Muslims! Don't you fell ashamed of what damage are you causing to the name of Islam and our Holy Prophet of Islam. All over the world you are seen as terrorists! Aren't you? If not then behave like one. Holy Prophet (PBUH) was called Rahmatullil Alameen by Allah and not Rahmatullil Muslimeen! He did not mistreat even the Munafiqeen that were identified by ALlah to Him. Yet you the Juhalaa of Islam believe that you the right kill people in the name of Islam. In Urdu "Laanut Ho Tum Sirf Naam Key Muslamoon Par"
Before religion, comes humanity. Doesn't matter about race or religion, the fact that Pakistan is unable to fulfil the basic rights of a human being shows that it is run and FULL of disgusting people. The fact that they cannot let people pray in peace but would rather have them killed is one of the reasons why this country will never develop. In fact it will deteriorate day by day.
No one in Pakistan or any other country has the right to judge any people/groups beliefs.
@Hairaan: its very strange. If some hindus claim that they are muslim then its very nice because they are accepting Islam. Do you want to stop them? Jews donot allow other persons to accept their beleives. Are you following the teachings of Jews?
@ All Read Quaid-e-Azam's speech delivered to the first costitutional assembly on 11th August 1947. He never meant Pakistan to be an Islamic Republic. He clearly states that he expects the citizens of Pakistan to be Pakistanis, with loyalty towards the State. Which religion people follow is their personal matter. As he said" You are free to go to your ....( places of worship".
We should really open up our minds. Think objectively people!Life is too short for these trivial things. Live and let live.
@Shayan: "However Muslims around the world should make sure that others around the world know the distinction between Qaddianis and Muslims."
The distinction that matters is that what are Ahmadies in the eyes of Allah.
Well now this has become a discussion about whether Qaddianis are Muslims are not. The constitution is clear on this- they are not. However this does not mean they should be persecuted or targeted in any way.
However Muslims around the world should make sure that others around the world know the distinction between Qaddianis and Muslims.
@Hairaan Jazakallah for your prayers for me I repeat the same prayer for you One day you will be guided to right path. INSHAALLAHThere's nothing unlawful.Actual problems lies beneath the uneducated and irrational minds..people should be educated so that they could know the real face of Islam instead of a MULLAHISM.
@Jameel: "Deobandi beliefs" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfde2WGvf3w
In the video Allama Maulana Kokab Noorani Okarvi explains and shows extracts from a book written by the Maulana Muhammad Qasim Nanutwi, the founder of Deoband seminary, who has explained the word "khatam". According to Maulana Nanutwi as explained and read by Maulana Kokab Noorani, Maulana Nanutwi say that chronologically being the last is of no significance. It is the highest spiritual station of the Holy Prophet (saw) which is important.
@Jameel See now you know why people are so suspicious of Qadianis? You jump to defend the Indians and blame the Muslims for the riots that take place in India. Do you even fact check and read the newspapers? Have you read Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch reports on the way both Muslims and Christian minorities are targeted in India? Have you read about the number of churches that get burnt in India? My point to the Indian commenter was that his country's situation was just as bad as hours, but you had to jump in between and be irrelevant and start blaming Muslims. Look its unfortunate minorities get targeted in Pakistan. They shouldnt and the problem lies with our messed law and order situation, which means perpetrators are never brought to justice. Here children get sold at a young age for marriage, women are raped and acid burnt, target killings take place, minorities are targeted. Every segment of society is suffering from the breakdown of law and order including minorities. So like I said before I do not advocate violence I am arguing on the merits of the beliefs of Qadianis. They are not Muslims, its pretty obvious when one reads their followers essays so please dont drag irrelevant facts. Argue on your religions merits, like I have in other comments.
@Shamim Shaikh. Who are you to judge who is an Ahmedi and who is not. One of my closest friends is an Ahamdi and I see no problem in his religion. A lot of the information about them is deliberate propaganda of misinformation. Do you even know what the difference between Ahmadies and Sunnier are?
@R.A: A very valid point.
As the saying of Buddah,"death is not the end of men"which will be followed by a better and fuller life where human soul will make ever lasting progress. The effects of deed will begin to manifest itself. It will not remain only like a seed but will grow and develop into a big tree and later bear fruit. It takes its birth within men himself. In this life we are the architect of our on destiny and in the next life we will be our own rewarder or punisher. Performing of certain acts is either done for or against ones own self. A murder, infact, murder his own self, a thief steals his own property. Similarly when he does good to other people, in reality he does good to himself.
@Truth: Pardon me sir, but I would like to point out here that the website U are referring to is not the official website of Jamaat Ahmadiyya. This website is operated ( as I can see) by the Lahore distanced itself from the Ahmadiyya Jamat some 90 years ago.
http://www.alislam.org/
This is the official website of our Jamaat. Feel free to have a look and Ahmadies do not refer to Muslims of the world as Kafir. Our beliefs differ but that does not give us the right to declare anyone Muslim or a Non Muslim.
Islam is the religion of Allah. It is the same religion that He put forth one the first day of this universe and is the same shall it remain till the last. it is the humans who keep diverging from the message of Allah and it is for Him and Him alone to decide when the day comes as to who deserves what...neither me nor U.
How would Muslims feel if other religions targeted them because they did not belong to "their" religion? Ahmedis can be anything they want to be. It is none of anybody's business - Muslims or others. Besides, being a Muslim is not something to be proud of these days. Get over the "superiority" complex. It should actually be quite the opposite.
The Ahmadis are welcome to come to India and settle. We have lots of other peace-loving enterprising Muslim communities here such as the Bohras, Ismailis etc who do well by both their faith and our country. Also, India has countless number of other faiths and religions who live amicably for the most part. From what I know of Ahmadis, they would do very well here.
@Rational Mind look at the language you are using. if you think by this language and attitude you can win the heart of people against Ahmadiyya then this is not a true thinking and looser approach
Ahmadis have never for 1 second in their 120 odd years history preferred to be called non-muslims, where is your proof? @Hairaan:
Clearly my fellow Indians don't really understand the opposition to Ahmadis. Think of it like this: If tomorrow someone came along and made some concepts up and said this is Buddhism and everyone who didn't believe in them was not really Buddhist, and all his followers started following it as Buddhism, would the original Buddhists be okay with it. That, according to the opposers of the Ahmadis, is what the Ahmadis have done with Islam. I don't know whether this is indeed the case or not in reality, but this is the claim. Now do you understand the issue better?
OK. for a moment suppose they are not Muslims .. does that give anyone right to harass or kill them? ..
@Rational Mind:
Fair enough, but why does this need to declare Ahmadi Pakistani citizens kafirs through government law arise?! Should it not then be the same for Sunni and Shia Pakistanis?!
This Takfiri ideology, with qatl-e-wajib philosophy, has now become especially worrisome in consequences for Shia Muslims considering growing extremism amongst some majority Sunni Muslims. And then Barelvi sub-sect have to look out. Where does it all stop?
Folks are entitled to their opinions (not facts). Freedom of speech or beliefs does not mean freedom to incite hate and violence through smears and slurs and ad hominem attacks that Ahmadis, or those accused of being Ahmadis, go through when called 'kafir' in derogatory terms (there's a nice article by ET elsewhere where a Hakim was literally put under religious inquisition to prove he wasn't Ahmadi). The prejudiced discriminatory weight of their calling us 'kafirs' compared to us calling them that, is not equal at all.
Here's a better idea...just stop pushing intolerant dogmatic theocratic ideological interpretations and agendas through government against other groups. Stop curtailing minority rights and state protection. Also stop killing other groups outside government and all that.
Just because I don't believe Ahmadis are technically Muslim, even if they claim to be, as a secular Muslim, I don't stupidly feel offended nor feel the need to restrict or oppress them through government or disingenuously rewrite history on Abdus Salam, Allama Iqbal, etc. But unfortunately it seems majority of Pakistanis want to be a bigoted theocratic anti-minority apartheid fascist state.
Ok, I have read most of the replies, and fund them very interesting. I am a Ahmadi-Muslim. We are taught how to be a good muslim. We read the same Qur'an as other muslims, we have the same method of worshiping Allah all mighty with Salat. We believe in the Holy Prophet (PBUH) to be Allah's servant and Messenger. Also let me point out one thing. We live on earth, because Allah has given us a chance to worship him and prove that we are worthy of going into heaven. Allah will choose those that have pure in heart and have done good deeds. It doesn't matter what religion you are. If you are pure in heart or trying to find the right path with full intentions of Harmony, Allah will welcome you (inshallah).
The attacker that killed 93 Ahmadi Muslims, during Friday prayers, a holy day of worship, what will they expect in the afterlife? Suicide bombers, every Muslim knows that committing suicide is shirk. Yet they still do it in the name of allah, and call themselves muslim. No legitimate Muslim book or in the Holy Qur'an does it say that Killling other Human beings is ok. Even worst, they do it in the name of allah. So what impression does this give to real non-muslims? I am curious about the replies I get. And just to point out, I am only 15 years old, and have no means of creating hatred or making someone look bad. The motto of Worldwide Ahmadiyya Community : Love for All, Hatred for None. More info please go here : http://www.alislam.org/ or http://www.ahmadiyya.org.uk/ Please be aware of other websites that are created by non-ahmadies to spread the wrong information about us. The two that I have stated are 100% legitimate. Thank you
Regarding the coming of Messiah, the Jews treated Jesus (AS) as a liar and conspired to have him put to the cross. The early Christians were charged with heresy and blasphemy. They were forced to go in hiding into the caves, where they survived for over 300 hundred years and emerged triumphant after much adversity.
The regression of faith in modern day thekedaars of Islam is very similar to that of the Jews, who left no stone unturned to resist and oppose their prophets and godly people. Muslims today are not much different from the Jews. Their mullahs, like the rabbis have sold their souls to peddle religion for worldly wealth and fame. The practitioners of the warped faith engage in all evil on the face of this earth and yet have the audacity to pass godly judgments. They have become shameless evil mongers deprived of fear of Allah in their hearts!
History repeats itself, without fail. Those with eyes and fear of God can see that what the so-called Muslims practice can not be called Islam. The thekedaars of Islam are its worst enemy.
Only a godly person through divine help, can revive the true spirit of Islam; its message of love and tolerance. The children of Abrahim(AS), the Jews, the Christians, and the Muslims await the Messiah while they argue, fight, and kill each other.
Carry on with your evil mission. God comes to the aid of the oppressed when the people become depraved of humanity. Indeed, God is sufficient for his servants!
May God guide the thekedaars of Islam to submit to Allah to cleansed their hate filled souls. Ameen!
Unfortunately as ever, this discussion has become a "are ahmadis muslim or not", come on people, even if they have any such beliefs which as it is said falsely, that they provoke "awam un naas". still it never gives some one to kill them. Pick up the history, every time minorities were killed in masses by majorities, same lame excuse was given. Whatever these people believe, u believe me, they are still Humans, have a right to live. As for the PROTESTS right of local people, "leave or die" has nothing to do with protesting, one can argue same protest were practiced by the meccans against the Holy Prophet (SAW).
All community should have freedom to protect them selfs. Ahmadi's are also a part of Pakistan so they should also have equal rights
@Shayan: There you go again. Qaddianis calling themselves Muslims- By that statement we are not Muslims.
Ahmadi Muslims can call themselves whatever they choose. They don't need your permission of any kind. By the same token you are free to call yourself whatever you think you are.
Reading the non-sense arguments and false accusation posted by the haters of Ahmadi Muslims, it is evident that the thekedaars of Islam are hell bent on practicing what Islam came to strike down. Their accomplishment in 60+ years is to pit brother against brother, men against women, caste against caste, language against language, sect against sect. And to top it off, these losers claim to be mohafiz-e-namoos-e-rasool. Sad and pathetic!
@Truth:
The riots were started by Muslims themselves by burning Hindus first so blames lies in a large part with Muslims. However the trials go on and several culprits have been punished.
In contrast cases of persecution in Pakistan are wholly one sided; Gojra being only one case where Christians were burnt alive. Before you ask Nerinder Modi you must ask Shehbaz Sahrif why his government allowed it to happen and then let all culprits go free.
As for how Hindus are treated in Pakistan watch today’s Policy Matters with Naseem Zehra. Hindus are leaving the country in their hundreds and going to India for the way they are being treated including Hindu girls being forcefully being abducted and married to (in effect raped). In contrast how many Muslims are leaving for Pakistan from India? There is no comparison.
@Hairaan
You said "Man there is a huge difference between an UMMATI and an UMMATI PROPHET. Can’t you figure this out? I never said that Jesus (AS) will come back as an UMMATI PROPHET. "
You believe the coming Jesus would be an Ummati, that is correct. The Holy Prophet(saw) has called the coming Messiah as a Prophet four times in Sahih Muslim. How can you go against the words of the Holy Prophet(saw).
In addition in the Holy Qur'an Allah says that He never takes away a gift until the people become undeserving of it, meaning they the gifts are taken when they turn away from God. Prophethood is the greatest gift that Allah bestows upon His servants. Jesus(as) has been given prophethood as a gift. By your reckoning Allah would 'God forbid' take it away - does that mean Jesus(as) because so estranged from Allah that he became undeserving of it. That is a great blasphemy that you are commiting against a Prophet of Allah. Think before you say something like this.
@Hairaan
So you are saying that Jesus is not a prophet, when did that happen?
@Sao Lao:
From your nick you don’t sound the epitome of Islam either. However he is a human and as such can see where inhuman ideas are coming from which unfortunately you don’t seem to.
There you go again. Qaddianis calling themselves Muslims- By that statement we are not Muslims?
Please stop spreading lies about Islam. I wonder how many minds you have corrupted abroad. You are doing more harm to Islam then the crusaders ever did.
Statements presented by the Qadianis or their sympathizers are so way different from each other which puts this faith in extreme doubt: 1. Some say he was Mujaddid 2. Some say he was Zilli Nabi 3. Some say he was an Ummati Nabi 4. Some say he was Mahdi 5. Some say he was Promised Massih (FYI Massih had no father) 6. Some say he never claimed to be a Prophet at all So please make up your mind first as to what he was and what he wasn’t before you write your next comment.
@Hairaan:
You do not have command over the subject matter and yet you are trying to convince others of it. Read up on the subject before you talk about it and worst give fatwas on it. Little knowledge is dangerous.
You are clearly justifying the killing of Ahmadis here. Ahmadis are peaceful, no doubt about it. They are also merely taking the benefit of human rights to call and act as Muslims. Yet you call it worst then killing. One has to doubt your sanity here. This is the same mentality as Mumtaz Qadri which results in the murders of innocents. This is clearly justifying terrorism. If this is your religion then it clearly does not deserve any respect from anyone.
@Hairaan: better to be out of arguments than intimidating aND KILLING FELLOW CITIZENS
@Talha: Man there is a huge difference between an UMMATI and an UMMATI PROPHET. Can't you figure this out? I never said that Jesus (AS) will come back as an UMMATI PROPHET. And by the way this term is an innovation by Qadianis (and other such terms as Zilli Nabi etc.) which did not exist before the prophethood claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
@Hairaan:
Why are there several dozen different sects all differing on the meanings of Allah’s book and ahdees? Why are the different sects killing each other despite following Allah’s book and ahdees if there is so much unanimity? You don’t seem to understand any of the arguments being presented here as others have pointed out as well. Perhaps consult someone who understands these things before coming here and wasting everyone’s time.
@R.A: It appears that your faith has been distorted beyond repair. May Allah guide to you the right path before the doomsday and save you from the hardship of the life hereafter.
my god, lookin at all the comments above, no doubt Pakistan will never have unity again, where all Pakistani citizen gets equality!
enough is enough! there is already so much hatred in this world, our country is already in a worst state, why cant we for humanity sake forget all the difference and accept each other as human beings, if u love your country, follow Quaid-e-Azam's vision! Those who dont want to live with the minorities get out of Pakistan, we are fed up with all the hatred/discriminations against a particular religious groups!
And no i dont belong to any religious group, i am PAKISTANI! thats my only identitiy! and Jinnah is my leader!
@csmann:
I am sorry if my comments gave you this impression. None of the comments of any of the MULLAH has favored killing of Qadianis. Please go through the comments once again with open eyes and mind. Or is it that you are out of arguments and now want to attract the attention of the human rights champions?
Most of the comments are saying that Ahamdis are doing something against Islam or Pakistan. If that is the case then it can be dealt legally, but I don’t think it is the issue. The real problem is that Ahmadis are being intimidated and are being forced to leave their homes. I want to express grief and disappointment on knowing that minorities are being harassed in a city adjacent to the capital. What else we can expect from our law enforcement agencies.
@Hairaan
Your logic has left me hairaan in disbelief that someone could be so out of fold with logic and reasoning.
You just stated that:
Then your reply to the following comment was:
So according to your own logic, you yourself are out of the fold of Islam. You clearly stated that the second coming of Jesus would be as a follower of the Prophet, and then you state whoever believes in an Ummati Prophet is out of the fold of Islam.
The oddest thing here is that who gave you the authority to decide who is out of the fold of Islam and who isn't.
all this tells is mullahs thirst for blood;they would any excuse as long as they can make a kill
@Talha @Tauseef Khan
This translation of Quran by itself is a gross alteration and renders one non-Muslim. Period.
I am afraid if this is what Qadianis believe in then surely they are out of the folds of Islam.
@ Hairaan ( or Hari Ram ) Prophethood given to some one by Allah can not be taken away Jesus (A S ) will be a Prophet untill tha day of judgement. Moreover can you tell me why Allah used the word KHATAM for Holy Prophet and not the word KHATIM.@Ahmad
For all the claims I have made my reference are the books written by Qadiani Authors.....one is biography of Mirza Qadiani written by his son Mirza Bashir and then the letters of Mirza and book of Mirza Qadiani himself....
if you want to develop neutral understanding of Qadianiat, then read the book of Moalana Abulhassan ali Nadvi on the topic (who was also Chairman Islamic Center of Oxford University)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AbulHasanAliHasaniNadwi
@Rational Mind @Hairaan:
You certainly have MTKN anti-Ahmadiyya books in front of you. These allegations have been answered countless times.
Is this new addition to the definition of Muslim revealed by God after Hadhrat Muhammad (saw)? It appears to be Pakistan's constitutional definition to me.
@M Mustafa:
Dear brother the second coming of Jesus would not be as a prophet but as a follower of our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). So undoubtedly Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet.
@Hairaan:
Tell us the definition of Muslim given by God?
What I have read and practiced so far is: To be a Muslim one has to believe in six tenets i.e. Oneness of God, Prophets, Revealed books, Angels, Predestination, Day of Resurrection and five pillars (Kalama, Salat, Sawm, Zakat, Hajj). Anyone believing in above and practicing five pillars is a Muslim. Period. No one has a right to call him/her non-Muslim for any other matter. If he does he himself is deviating.
@NB:
The hadees is self explanatory. In the case of Qadianis they do not call themselves just Muslims. They call themselves Qadiani Muslims or Ahmadi Muslims. And this explains it all.
Religious leaders like Baba Nanak, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and Krishna should be covered and protected by the constitution and the blasphemy laws.
@Sao Lao
The finality of Hazrat Muhammed (SAW) is a non issue as it is neither one of the five pillars, nor is it an inclusion in the Kalima.
However Hazrat Muhammed (SAW) is Khataman Nabiyyeen - Seal of the Prophets, and this also believed by Ahmadi's as it is a scripturally written fact.
The word Khatam, in this instance, denotes the consummation and completion of a thing. Not the finality of Prophethood because the word Khatam in Farsi/Urdu has a different meaning altogether.
Let me give you examples of the use of the word Khatam in a similar context:
So do you understand its usage here, another example follows:
So Hazrat Muhammed (SAW) is Khataman Nabiyyeen - Seal of the Prophets, the most perfect of all Prophets.
Ahmadi Muslims believe fully in Khatme-Nabbuwat and also that according to the prophecies in the Holy Qur'an and the Holy Prophet(saw) a reformer came with the same status as described by the Holy Prophet(saw). They saw that he fulfilled the signs and accepted him. In Sahih Muslim his status was of a Prophet so we believed him to be a prophet, this does not go against Khatme-Nabbuwat as the Holy Prophet(saw) understood Khatme-Nabbuwat more than anyone and he described the coming Messiah as a prophet.
Ahmadis believe in every word of the Holy Quran and also in the prophecies of the Holy Prophet(saw). Any prophet that comes who brings a new religion is an imposter. Read the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, he categorically rejects that he has brought a new religion. He says that all he presents is from the Holy Qur'an and follows the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet(saw). He has lost himself so much in the love of the Holy Prophet(saw) that he has been given the status of an Ummati (follower) Prophet of the Holy Prophet(saw). According to many great Islamic scholars an Ummati prophet does not break the seal of Khatme-Nabbuwat because he gets his status from this seal.
@Hairaan:
Once the Sahaba karam Rizwanullah i Ajmaeen asked Hazrat Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) to whom we list as a muslim in Medina. The Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) said, those who declare themself as a muslim."
It was happended when the first census of muslims in Medina was ordered by Holy Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (Peace be upon Him) to Sahaba karam (R.A)
Now what you comment on this Hadis?
@T R Khan: "When is the Messiah promised by the Holy Prophet (saw) coming? He will definitely and once for all clear the Ahmadi problem. But, will he be then; the last prophet?"
In chronological order of death in this world, Jesus (as) will be the last prophet to die in this world, however from the status point, in the eyes of Allah, the Holy Prophet (saw) has the highest spiritual status amongst all the prophets.
@Shamim Shaikh: Do you or any government have the authority to declare someone as Muslim or non-muslim? Or in other words if we give this authority to any government or court of a goverment then only those will be true beleivers who are in power or in majority.
To crucify the Jesus ( Hazrat Eisa A. S.) was a decision given by Roman court. Do you think it was correct and justified. If we study the histroy of mankind, all Prophets were condemned by the majority of people at their times. Do you think that was correct? Religion is a matter between a person and his Creator (God Almighty). Who so ever is a true beleiver is the judgement of God and not the human beings.
@narayana murthy: How does it concern you. I assumed by your nick that you are a hindu
anyway Ahmadis dont believe in the finality of the holy prophet Muhammed (PBUH) so this alone makes the out of the fold of Islam. and this is just one thing.
@Jameel: Loved your reply...Masha'Allah very good.!!!
@Lone Star:
Allah's book and his prophet Mohammad's (PBUH) ahadees.
If the so-called Muslims think that their version alone is the correct one and Ahmedis are not muslims and so should be persecuted, shouldn't Ahmedis wonder if they really want to be Muslims?
@csmann:
CORRECTION: An Ahmadi can not convert someone to Muslim faith. An Ahmadi can only convert someone to AHMADIAT. No service to humanity.
This is what they had to in order to twist the translation into their prophet's favor. Again no service to humanity.
@Jameel: What's in the video? Please write it down for me.
I have a simple question to SUNNI MUSLIMS.
What is wrong with you Sunni Muslims? Why do you regress everyday, while all other communities at least try to progress? This includes Shia Iran!!! But you Sunni Muslims have squandered opportunities, plundered your resources and blundered with each step you took.
@Hairaan:
View the video posted by me above entitled ‘Deobandi beliefs’ and ask doebandis this question first. You have deliberately avoided this as you have no answer to it.
@Talha - well said; and
@Rational Mind - I would advise you to go and read the history and you will find that this so called Islamic leadership of Pakistan from JI etc. were actually against the formation of Pakistan, especially Maudoodi sahib. Get your facts. I once read a good quote, "If your facts are week argue the law, if your law is weak argue the facts, but if your law and facts both are weak then yell like hell"....
@Jameel Have you seen the original amendment that Bhutto passed? It had the agreement of the leaders of ALL the Islamic sects Shia, Sunni, Deoband and Barelvi etc leaders. Yes there are differences between all these sects but doesn't it say something that despite differences they all seem to unify and agree on ONE thing which is Qadianis are not Muslims? Also please dont twist my words, I did not advocate violence against anyone. I am debating the issue on the merits of the beliefs, something you seem to be dodging by bringing in unrelated facts. It is our human right too that we our beliefs are not insulted by a man-made religion impersonating our belief structure despite being so radically different. So yes you have human rights to practice what you want, but you are not Muslims and the Constituition says so. We cant cater to the demands of the minority at the offence of the majority. Also once again before you twist my words,let me remind you, I am not advocating violence simply saying you can practice what you want without demanding to be called muslims which you are not.
@Shamim Shaikh: Why do u care if they call themselves Muslims? .. At least they are not killing Muslims and suicide bomb attacks, like other people claiming to be Muslims and target-killing like other MUSLIMS .. so I do not think we should worry about them giving Islam a bad name. Plus if they are Muslims or not that between them and Allah we are no one to decide and terrorize them. I feel so sad for my ILLITERATE ILLITERATE COUNTRY. we have much bigger issues to worry about and they are fighting among themselves. I pity us.
@Jameel Are you reading to what I said? Did I advocate their killing? No! They can practise what they want but they are not Muslims. I am only addressing the issue to the extent as to whether they are within the domain of Islam or not (which they are not according to all the Islamic sects Shia Sunni etc) Also for those who condemn Qadianis being declared non-muslims, well I just pointed out the same beliefs also exist in the Qadiani beliefs so lets cut out the hypocrisy. How can a religion created out of nowhere hundred years ago with radically different beliefs suddenly demand being called muslims. You have the human right to practice within the frame of the constitution. You cannot demand rights at the cost of the majority.
@Jameel:
And probably you are also not listening to ehat others are saying. There is also some sort of confusion around. Let me make one thing clear. No one is asking you to kill Qadianis. Nor we encourage any violence if they live peacefully. What we expect from them is to keep their believes to themselves and not to damage the faith of other muslims. And by the way destroying someones faith is more dangerous than killing.
@Hairaan: "Islam is not based on what someone thinks, It is what God thinks who is Muslim and who is not."
By that same reasoning, neither you nor anybody else has the right to call somebody a non-Muslim. If the Ahmadis say they are Muslims, then that is their right. Why should they denounce their religious beliefs in a kangaroo court which at the time was falling over backwards to please Zia ul Haq? Only God can judge the validity of their claim. The Pakistani constitution needs to be amended to strike out the Ahmadi clause.
@Ahmadi:
Excellent. But brother there are a few things missing: 1) Do you belief that Muhammad (PBUH) is the last and final prophet of God? 2) Do you denounce the false claims made by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad that he was the promised Messiah, Mahdi, or a Zilli nabi, or Prophet? 3) Do you denounce the claim of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of being the Mujaddid? 4) Do you read the Quranic translation which does not contain alterations made by Qadianis?
If reply to all above answers is yes then congratulations you have reverted to Islam. Find the nearest Islamic center and ask the Imam and accept Islam on his hand.
@Truth:
If they are so united then how come thousands of them have been killed by each other in Pakistan and are still being killed? Funny way to show their unity. Obviously all these sects not only consider each other kafir but also worthy of killing (wajib-ul-qatl).
LOL...so you accept your religion has nothing to do with human rights. Why then, may I ask, do you want to stick to this religion and how is it relevant to man kind? One would think humanity would be an integral part of a religion, but not yours apparently. This is contradiction in terms, but at least you are truthful that your religion does not have human rights so you have given fair warning to all. Now anyone can join it at their own peril.
@Truth:
Are you even listening to what I said? Ahmadis are not killing anyone while they are being killed by others; there is no comparison there. Anyone can have any belief they like; there is no reason to object to that and certainly no right to persecute or oppress anyone for their beliefs as it is their fundamental human right. I don’t know how much easier I can make it for you and others who have no understanding of the fundamental human right of religious freedom; the right that applies equally to ALL and not selectively as you would like it to be.
Again to all: This is 21 century. All men are equal and all have certain inalienable rights. Right to conscience and belief are the most fundamental of human rights. So please grow up. Live and let live. You are no longer in the dark ages. Let god do his job.
@Jameel Stop being touchy, despite all the differences all the sects of Islam (shia, sunni etc) have something in common - belief in prophethood finality, second coming of Christ etc. Some dude hundred years ago out of nowhere calls himself a prophet and demands his followers be called Muslims. Oh please, i think all sects are united on this fact they are not muslims, if they want human rights they can immigrate abroad.
@Jameel:
Jameel Mian, your reasoning is impeccable and very sound. I wonder if anyone opposing you, would actually think about what you have said.
I am a Hindu and would not like to call myself a Muslim. I also respect everybody's right to believe in their own faith. Having an opinion about others' religion is one thing but persecuting them for their belief is completely different. In United States, there is a sect called Mormons and their beliefs are in stark contrast to other Christians. Mormons believe in prophets born after Jesus and also in polygamy. But nobody persecutes them they way minorities are persecuted in the land of pure.
These protectors of faith in Pakistan will stop at nothing - killing Shias, Hindus, Ahmadis and others. I find it strange that even Sunni sect has multiple schools of thoughts - Wahabis... Barelvis etc etc. Does it mean that they will start killing each other after no minorities are left in Pakistan?
Assalamoalaikum (You can get me in jail for saying salam in Pakistan because it means I am "un-lawfully" posing as a Muslim.)
I was born in Lahore, Pakistan. My parents were born in the villages of Punjab, so were their parents. I am a son of this soil. My maternal uncle and a paternal uncle served proudly in the army. My mother is doctor and has handled at least 2000 delivery cases over a practicing period of 25 years, meaning that she contributed towards bringing new lives in this country. All of my extended family is well educated and law abiding. I am a student in the USA and I have always tried to convey a soft image of Pakistan. I will remain loyal to my country but it often breaks my heart when I come to realize that I am treated as a secondary citizen in my own country. I can not even call my self Muslim even though I have the same Kalimas, the same Quran, the same pillars of faith and the same Namaz. I am a son of the soil, and no one can snatch that from me. I have a relationship with this soil, with this country. It also breaks my heart when I hear false allegations against Ahmadis as if we are working against this country. Let me assure you my fellow brothers and sisters, we will continue to contribute towards the well being of our country. There is no truth in the conspiracy theories you hear my brothers and sisters. They are forged to spread hatred against us. We will continue our slogan of 'Love for all, hatred for none'. Thank you for going through this.
@Shamim Shaikh: However, there is a big difference here. Ahamadis or Qadianis are not Muslims. It is not a sect of Islam like the Sunnis. The problem crops up when they claim themselves to be Muslims.
Who are you decide that whose Muslim and whose not? Have you ever studied their material? What they claim to be? any difference in Quran or Kalimah or Namaz? They consider Prophet Muhammad (saw) as last prophet of Allah.
Please fix your views and get some knowledge. www.muslim.org
Thanks
and May Allah give our people strength and brain to straighten their own lives not others.
@Rational Mind:
Did their prophet exist in British era? How are the two compareable? Fact is Mullahs of those sects praised British and actually took benefits from them and in the absence of prophet they are the torch bearers of their respective religions; no point arguing over it. Even “hakeem-ul-ummat” praised the British and actually took Knighthood from them. Somehow this does not seem to have any effect on his religious and spiritual influence. There are obviously two different standards running here.
But this is not the case. Ahmadis are actually being killed oppressed and persecuted and are not being allowed to consider themselves and act as Muslims which is their fundamental human right. Ahmadis don’t do any such thing in return to others. So there is no comparison. So not so rational mind after all.
@Hairaan: are you saying you know what God thinks - have some shame and get to know the basics of islam
There is no scientific evidence for existence of God. Only Good and Evil exist. Why Pakistani people are giving too much importance to a fictitious thing. It is sad to see that Muslims are killing fellow muslims in Pakistan (Sunnis killing Shias, Ahmedis, Hazaras etc). In my opinion, religion has not done any good for religious Pakistan. Let your children study religion of compassion, tolerance, love, and humanity.
@shamim shaikh: what are your views about the Ismailis, and such other sects who consider Hadhrat Ali supreme, about being Muslim or not? or are you too scared so you would rather be politically cvorrect. Go get your facts striaght before you get into these discussion, they say little knowledge is dangerous - especially the superficial pseudo-intellectual type.
it is a treat to see here how murderous minds think and try to justify their beastly instinct and behavior by hook or crook
@Aziz: Most appropriate comment!
to all those who have some misgivings:
Barelivis, deobandis and Ulema might have sought British empire's support but atleast their Prophet didn't ..... Well you may say that west doesn't support Qadianis but do remember Mirza Qadiani did support British Empire
and yes do remember that Mirza beleived that all those who donot believe him are Kafir.......let them call us kafir and let us call them kafir
@Truth: so why dont christians have a problem with it,and go about killing innocent ahmadis just to take them off the allha's list of followers.
@Truth:
You have just made up an allegation. Until Ahmadis actually impose their views you can not blame them. Presently Ahmadis are the ones who are being persecuted by others so Ahmadis deserve our sympathy and support and their persecutors deserve all the contempt they receive.
They consider themselves Muslims so as humans they are perfectly within their human rights to believe and act as Muslims. You can not take their human rights away. This is 21st century, believe it or not.
In that case call yourself Christians and let Ahmadis be Muslims. Problem solved.
@everyone Yea well i am assuming if they were the majority they would hav imposed the same viewpoint that they are protesting against. I dont care about what they practice as long but they are not muslims. Infact muslims have more in common with the christians who like us believe in the second coming of the Christ then they we do with the Qadianis who believe that Christ has died and is buried in Kashmir.
@Hairaan:
Why would a Hindu say that, just like a Muslim will not go to Vatican for "Hajj"? Don’t any of them have any self respect?
Just because you have no real point left, you bring up a made up scenario which has no relation with reality. You can’t take away anyone’s rights based on hypothetical scenarios.
You are implying that God thinks ONLY what YOU understand it to be, and then want to force it upon others. Do you have a certificate from God that only you are entitled to define what God thinks and to force this understanding upon others? If not then everyone has the same right to interpret what God’s message is and to act accordingly. If we allowed clergy to force their views of the scriptures on others as the only view than world would still be flat today. Think about it.
@To all Muslims who are writing in favor of Qadianis
Ironically this post reflects views of many Muslims who believe that Qadianis are Muslims like them but unfortunately this sentiment is not reciprocated by the Qadianis. Their so-called prophet says "God has revealed it to me that the person who did not believe in me after having heard about me is not a Muslim." (Al-Fazl, Qadian, Jan 15, 1935 - Al-Hukum, 4:24, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)
So please keep your concept and faith clear.
@saeed:
Why don’t you first demand of Deobandis to find the importance of this belief? See below short video, it will open your eyes.
Deobandi beliefs
@Truth: Do you even understand the meaning of Kafir? Do you understand in what terms the term Kafir is used by Ahmedis? Do you know Kafir only means 'One who hides or conceals'? Do you understand when I say Kafir is NOT equal to non-muslim? Stop spreading hate!
@Nero and everyone Have you guys even read their founders writings? The ones where he proclaims all Muslims who do not believe in his Prophethood to be Kafirs? Just because there are similarities doesnt mean they are another version of Islam. Christians and Muslims have similar beliefs too accept Chrisitians dont accept our last Prophet. Similarly we dont accept their so called last Prophet. They can practice what they want, but they are not Muslims.
Mosque should be separate from the state.
@Jameel:
Not so. They think they are Muslim and that is enough
What if tomorrow Hindus claim that they THINK they are Muslims? Should their claim be acceptable. Sir Islam is not based on what someone thinks. It's what God thinks who is Muslim and who's is not.
What if tomorrow I start thinking that the house you live in is actually mine? Should I be allowed to kick you out of your house and install myself in you house. So every thought must be backed by logic and documentary proof. The Qadianis lost their case in the court of law. They were given chance to denounce their false claim of prophet-hood but they preferred to be called non-Muslims at that time. It's now that they are posing themselves to be Muslims
@Syed:
Right. I take it you or your beliefs have no respect or care for human rights. Tell me; in that case are your beliefs fit for human consumption? Aren't you the one who should therefore stop preaching or practicing such beliefs among humans?
@Nero because you are a Hindu and by looking at your recent comment I understood that you also dont have any knowledge about Islam as a religion..I will advice you to kindly search a little about the importance of believing that Muhammad P.B.U.H is a last messenger of ALLAH in Islam..only then you will understand the point..Actually the only difference between Ahamadis and other Muslims is this very point..because you dont know much about Islam so that is why you are not getting the point I am making..Again I am telling you that to be called a MUSLIM...I emphasize again to be known as a Practicing MUSLIM and part of ISLAM the single most important thing is to believe that Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H is a last messenger of ALLAH..because Ahamdis dont believe in that and they consider Mirza Ghulam who is the founder of ahamdis as the last messenger so they are not considered to be known as Muslims..other then this they do all the things which are related to Islam but in Islam if you dont consider or believe that Muhammad P.B.U.H is a last messenger of ALLAH you are not a Muslim...In Pakistan till 1973 Ahamdis were regarded as Muslims but then they were called in the assembly and asked to clear there believe (Akeeda) about the Finality of prophet hood..after a 5 days long session the leaders of Ahamadsi them self excepted that they dont believe in the finality of Prophet hood and the consider Mirza Ghulam as the messenger of ALLAH aslo only then they were considered as a non muslin....In the end I am not trying to justify any violence against any community..I am strongly agaisnt any discrimination in the name of religion but one should have clear facts before giving any comments..
@Truth:
Are Ahmadis also persecuting others too like others are persecuting them? There is big difference. Don’t mix beliefs with persecution. All sects consider others kafir (see below video) so by this standard killing and persecuting other sects is fine too? Let us know.
Who is a kafir?
@Syed:
Pakistan is a signatory to universal declaration of human rights and is in violation of its signature. This is dishonesty not to mention oppressive of the Pakistan government. Try to learn of the issue at hand before commenting on it.
the mullahs are threatening them too,and on the other hand dont want them-ahmadis- to protect themselves;it is asking them to be ready for slaughter
@Rational Mind: So did Brelvis, Deobandis and many other Muslim scholars. Read history carefully.
@Truth: but they dont go about hounding and killing muslims
@ RationalMind So did Ulema Iqbal and majority of Muslim leaders including Deobandi Ulemas.@Shayan: So you are saying that our man-made and prejudiced constitution of Pakistan has jurisdiction over matter that Islam attributes solely to Allah almighty ( i.e. deciding whether someone is Muslim or not)?
It really is shocking to see the narrow minds that some people have in Pakistan. No individual owns Islam - Let Allah decide who is a muslim and who is not
@Shamim Shaikh: Sir you say "However, there is a big difference here. Ahamadis or Qadianis are not Muslims. It is not a sect of Islam like the Sunnis. The problem crops up when they claim themselves to be Muslims." Will you please tell then what was the religion of Quaide Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah?
@Shayan: "Well its part of the constitution. Qaddiyanis are not muslims. You “may claim otherwise” but you are not allowed to preach whatever your believe in as Islam. Call it whatever else you feel like! " Then change the constitution. It has no business to be in these matters in the first place.
@ Jameel, Not so. They think they are Muslim and that is enough to give them right under universal declaration of human rights to act and profess as Muslims. The prescribed Anti-Ahmadi laws in Pakistan are apartheid in nature making Pakistan a constitutional apartheid state; a rarity in this day and age.
What is universal declaration? My dear non-muslims.. Pakistan (Islamic Republic of Pakistan) is a muslim state.. Therefore being a minority Hindu or non muslim you have no right neither you can comment on any provision of law(islamic law).. So all non-muslims please stop discussing this Qadiani issue as you dont know what Qadianis are.. There is IJMAA of all sects that Qadiani's are non muslims.. So Stop teaching us human rights.. we have our Holy Quran and Sunnah to follow..
The founder of Qadiani movement Mirza Qadiani pledged full allegiance to Bristish empire and requested them many times that Qadianis be granted special support from Englishgmen. (Mentioned in most of his books) and also mentioned his father's support to British empire during 1857 revolt.
Little did he know that Empire will be out of India in less than half century of his demise.
The sunnat of the Qadiani prophet is to seek British Empire's support in all difficulties and that is what all Qadianis should do, follow the life pattern of their prophet.
@Everyone Well Qadianis themselves consider other Muslims who do not accept the Qadiani prophet as Kafirs. I am not pulling facts out of their air - this is on their website and referenced to their founders essays: http://ahmadiyya.org/qadis/takfir1.htm .
it is pity on this forum for first it is quick in regulating comments which doesn't fall in THEIR thinking and second, always tilting towards Islamization...are you really a news agency of modern world or a medievel world!!!!
@Nero...A Muslim is the one who believes that the Prophet Muhammad P.B.U.H is the last messenger and prophet of ALLAH...this condition is not restricted to any sect or class this is a basis of being a Muslim..It is in Quran and for one to become Muslim the only thing needed is to recite the first kalima..so people who dont believe in this are not considered to be Muslim and are not allowed to preach that they are Muslims...you need to dig on this to understand more what I saying..First read the history of Ahamadis there beliefs and then make up your mind..
@Nero That is what Ahmadis want The reason to put a ban on Ahmadis to preach was that every one will find out , their ISLAM is no different than the ISLAM of Holy Prophet S A W S Let them explain this on TV and RADIO for only few days and see the difference.Allah and Allah alone is the judge of who is a Muslim and who is not. If Ahmadies think they are Muslims, what critical difference does it make. A suicide bomber who kills hundreds of innocent Muslims also believes that he is a Muslim.
@Acorn Guts- Well its part of the constitution. Qaddiyanis are not muslims. You "may claim otherwise" but you are not allowed to preach whatever your believe in as Islam. Call it whatever else you feel like!
Very Sad, I hope the government can stem this wave of persecution against Ahmadis
@Shamim Shaikh: Where is the problem in that? It is a difference of opinion. You consider Ahmadis not to be Muslims and we claim other wise. Neither of us have been given the divine right to judge the matter of faith let alone impose our opinion that can lead to persecution and violent hatred towards a each other. Love for all. Hatred for none!
Shame on those harrising a minority community!! Amounts to cowardice.
The problem starts when Qaddiyanis begin to preach their religion as Islam. It was an attempt by the British to divide the Muslims post 1857 War of Independence.
Qaddiyanis loved being played the oppressed but they have always held positions of great influence.
@Shamim Shaikh: And who decides they are muslims or not? you???
FOR GOD'S SAKE! LET EVERYONE FOLLOW THEIR RELIGION OF CHOICE PEACEFULLY. Ahmadis consider themselves Muslims, what right do others have to call them Non-Muslims. Please, live and let others live peacefully.
@Shamim Shaikh: Sir, who gave you the authority to call someone a non-muslim?? Keep these things for Allah to decide only...I believe Ahmadis should have the rights to build their mosques as well..As far as the posting of snipers are concerned it is a need of the day as we dont want to see another 100 men being butchered ruthlessly by Tehrik-i-Khatmi-Nabuwwat militants... .Its a great achievement that they have people among their community who volunteer to stand guard leaving aside and sacrificing their education and job time... It is my request for the government of Pakistan to please protect their citizens!!
@Shamim Shaikh: so somebody claims oneself to be a muslim,that is a crime;you people will play the rule of allah and judge yourself
@Shamim Shaikh:
Not so. They think they are Muslim and that is enough to give them right under universal declaration of human rights to act and profess as Muslims. The prescribed Anti-Ahmadi laws in Pakistan are apartheid in nature making Pakistan a constitutional apartheid state; a rarity in this day and age.
@Organization of Pure Profit:
Not at all! French haven’t butchered any as Muslim yet.
@Organization of Pure Profit: in fraNce muslims dont have to fear for their lives and their property;and these muslims are mostly immigrants and non-citizens;Here ahmadis are the citizens of pakistan,and they are never sure when a crowd of fellow pakistanis may gather to do them harm,when somebody will shoot at them,or put a knife in their hearts;This is hardly a comparison
@ Nero and Others, I fully support the views that every community should have freedom to practice their faith and preach about their religion. However, there is a big difference here. Ahamadis or Qadianis are not Muslims. It is not a sect of Islam like the Sunnis. The problem crops up when they claim themselves to be Muslims. If they want to practice and preach their religion they should do so without claiming to be Muslims. Constitution of Pakistan guarantees full rights to all the faiths but they should not infringe on others faith.
We from the minorities can never have equla rights in Pakistan, this country was made for the Muslims and thus we are second grade citizens. We are killed, but has anyone been prosecuted. Pakistan is a failure for minorities. If we have resources to migrate we should leave. everyday this country will become worse to live in.
@ Mr. Abdullah What about the residential places/plots on which mosques/seminaries were constructed by the majority community known as Muslims, in some cases without the permission of the owner of the land or paying to owner for the land? In this case at least Jamaat-e-Ahmadiyya has purchased the building from its community member.
Govt. of Pakistan should protect the human rights of ahmadis as well as others minorities too in Pakistan but unfortunately they are lacking to protect.
@Abdullah:
Because they are prohibited from building proper mosques since many years, hence have to make do. Yet you are still not happy even with this repressed situation. What do you want?
Ah, these guys are being treated like the French Institutions are treating French Muslim population.
Minorities should have equals rights to live and worship their choice of religion in Pakistan, we have lot bigger problems in our country to worry about. We should leave them alone and focus on important things. We should remember what our flag stands for "Green is a traditional Islamic color and the crescent and star are also Islamic symbols. The white stripe represents the non-Muslim, minority, religious groups in Pakistan".
It is so sad to see the minorities being targeted and harassed and a quiet Govt. It looks as if after some time only Wahhabi Sunni Muslims will be living in Pakistan. Even those who migrated from india will be eliminated in the name of mohajirs.
Why can't Ahmadis propagate their version of Islam if Sunnis propagate their version? How can someone claim their version to be the ONLY Version..... Give each version a chance so that people can have access to both and make FREE CHOICE and take up what they want. Here in India in Punjab I have seen many Ahamadis preach their version of Islam to many people (sunnis, shias and even hindus) . What is wrong with that?
Minorities have a right to appeal to the Constitution as a shield against such oppression.
So now Qadianis are granted residential places to be used as worship places, astonishing !!!