India is the revisionist power

Published: July 28, 2011
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The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Foreign Policy Studies Programme.

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution’s Foreign Policy Studies Programme.

In his famous essay, What is a Nation, the French philosopher, Ernest Renan, argued that selective amnesia — “forgetting”, as he puts it — is an important part of modern nation-building. This is achieved in many ways, but most importantly by controlling the narrative. The narrative determines the core aspects of the identity of a state. It is successful when that identity is internalised by the peoples to a point where those core aspects are not disputed, and where any external challenges to them are simply not entertained.

Using this central benchmark — I make no attempt here to problematise this process — we have to concede that Pakistan lags far behind India in defining the core aspects of its nationhood. Not because India is not internally troubled, which it is, but because India has developed a centre that holds it together. The centre drives India and perpetuates the narrative, deflecting the world’s attention away from India’s musty underbelly: Abject poverty, very high levels of corruption, the near-absence of the state’s writ in the Red Corridor, terrible human rights violations in Occupied Kashmir, crimes against women and, yes, Taliban-style panchayats.

And while the media highlights internal troubles, it is largely pliant to the state when it comes to presenting the state to the outside world and is the most effective vehicle for the state narrative.

It is a common practice for states to sell the narrative internally. But it is a greater exercise in soft compellence to sell it to other collections also. An even greater success would be to make one’s narrative acceptable to sections of another collection with whom one is locked in conflict.

India has done this with Pakistan and, as a realist, I salute them for this success. Of course, India’s success in this regard is directly proportional to Pakistan’s failure to sell itself to its people. This, as I have noted on a number of occasions, is the biggest threat to Pakistan.

One consequence of this is a large number of us swallowing, hook, line and sinker, India’s narrative on its conflict with Pakistan. Here are some examples:

India is a status quo power while Pakistan is a revisionist state; India just wants to live in peace; there’s nothing about Pakistan that interests India; India, the Little Red Riding Hood, has to keep the world’s fourth largest military because Pakistan attacked it four times — ’47, ’65, ’71 and ’99. Let’s just take these up.

(NB: It’s quite another fact that every time Pakistan has tried to engage India on force rationalisation — nuclear and conventional — including as part of the 2004 dialogue framework, India shifts the goalpost by referring to China).

The term ‘status quo power’ is used cleverly in modern interstate relations. It ignores the direct and indirect influence — soft and hard power, and diplomacy — exerted by stronger states on the weaker ones in the former’s areas of concern by focusing instead on whether a state wants to capture another’s territory. Let there be no doubt, however, that rising powers are always revisionist states. They challenge an existing power configuration by spreading their influence and power. China is one; India is lagging far, far behind but following the same paradigm.

Pakistan is accused of being a revisionist state, primarily vis-a-vis Occupied Kashmir. And a part of our self-loathing intelligentsia has accepted this bunkum. Pakistan has no designs on India but Kashmir is not a part of India. It is a disputed area and that fact is also accepted by India. Because this will be deliberately twisted by the ‘what-abouters’, let me clarify that I am not advocating a war with India, merely stating a fact.

As for revisionism, Pakistan, within the region, is a status quo power because it checks India’s desire to project power in South, the West, and southern Asia. A neoliberal paradigm is possible if India is prepared to address the issue of Kashmir meaningfully. The last three years have clearly shown that the problem lies inside Occupied Kashmir. They have also shown that India remains singularly and callously unconcerned about the Kashmiris.

And what about the wars Pakistan is supposed to have thrust on India?

The 1947 war began as an indigenous uprising in different parts of the then State of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K). It is a matter of historical record that Pakistan had no clear state policy on how to use force against India’s illegal invasion of J&K. The ragtag Poonchis and other Kashmiri groups, with help from tribesmen and some elements of the Pakistani military, managed to capture the territory which now forms Azad Kashmir. If they hadn’t, Pakistan would have today needed just the present size of its army to defend the northern salient.

The 1965 war was a mistake. Much has been written about it inside Pakistan. But there is absolutely no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to get back territory in occupation of an adversary. Pakistan never violated the Indian territory: It crossed what was then the CFL (ceasefire line). The fact is that it was India that aggressed against Pakistan directly when it attacked across, and violated, the international border.

As for India’s generosity, as mentioned by many Indian analysts, in returning to Pakistan the Haji Pir Pass, I have to give them full marks for dissembling! The Tashkent Agreement required the two sides to go back to status quo ante. India decided to keep Kargil because that secured its road to Leh, and return Haji Pir Pass to get back Chhamb and Jorrian because in that area we were dangerously close to the chicken neck. You cut off the chicken neck and you cut off India from Occupied Kashmir. But the problem is not Indian dissembling; it is our acceptance of this deceptive narrative.

And Pakistan attacked India in 1971!? This actually takes the cake. Ignore India’s full-fledged assault on then East Pakistan and trot out Pakistan’s attack in the west, an attack that came too late. That episode also opens the chapter in this region of covert war. Yes, it was introduced by India when it trained the Mukti Bahini; India repeated this exercise with Sri Lanka when it trained the LTTE. I don’t grudge India any of its actions. States do these things in their interests, perceived or real. But to present India as the babe in the wood? Nah; not happening.

Of course there is Kargil in 1999. More of us have blasted Kargil here, including this writer, than perhaps writers in India. It was a terrible operation at all levels. Worse, it came at a time when Pakistan and India were moving towards normalisation. That process should have been allowed to move forward and bear fruit. But let us not forget India’s occupation of the Saltoro Range, its violation of Pakistani posts along the LoC. In a conflictual model these things happen. Yet I will be the first to deduct marks from the Pakistani military on the Kargil operation. Still, the man who did it also became India’s best partner in peace.

Finally, implying that India can’t have peace until Pakistan accepts India’s diagnosis will not beget India a viable policy. Pakistan wants peace. But it doesn’t want to become a west Bangladesh, to use Stephen Cohen’s phrase. So, let’s get rid of the I-am-the-good-guy-here baloney and level with each other.

Published in The Express Tribune, July 29th, 2011.

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Reader Comments (192)

  • Paras Vikmani
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:25PM

    Focus on Pakistan’s problems instead of India’s Mr.Haider.
    It will serve you better :)

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  • Junaid
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:33PM

    A very nice article Mr. Ejaz, as always.. now there will line up some long comments by some self-righteous Indians who perhaps live in the illusion of being the good, even the only good guys here.

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  • Sarath
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:35PM

    India did indeed arm, train and fund the LTTE, leading to the death of thousands upon thousands of Sri Lankans and random terror attacks in the island. For Sri Lankans it is quite amusing to see India point fingers at Pakistan over “cross border terrorism”

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  • Explorer
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:37PM

    Ejaz is entitled to wish that Pakistan should not end up as west Bangladesh. But Bangladesh has few problems with its neighbours. Consequently it can afford to spend relatively less on military and more on human development.

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  • S
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:40PM

    “The 1947 war began as an indigenous uprising in different parts of the then State of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K). It is a matter of historical record that Pakistan had no clear state policy on how to use force against India’s illegal invasion of J&K. The ragtag Poonchis and other Kashmiri groups, with help from tribesmen and some elements of the Pakistani military, managed to capture the territory which now forms Azad Kashmir.”

    This is the biggest lie (or simply inexpertise?). You should read Sheikh Abdullah’s UN speech and what he says about Pakistani “indigenous uprising” and the consequent Indian “invasion” (made on request from the then state of J&K after the signing of the instrument of accession). Why are you fudging facts? Mukti Bahini was India’s covert war and India did it for its self interest vis a vis Pakistan? Ask a sane Bangladeshi today and be prepared to run at once.Recommend

  • Abhi
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:44PM

    “Pakistan wants peace. But it doesn’t want to become a west Bangladesh”
    I remember an old hindi phrase. Rassi Jal gayi magar bal nahin gaye.

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  • Thinker
    Jul 28, 2011 - 10:55PM

    Author is much more concerned about India’s problem.
    He & other sons of china should start working on pakistan’s survival instead of wasting their time on pointing out our problems.

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  • American
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:00PM

    Mr Haider writes very well, with precision and clarity; but even in a most carefully crafted narrative, the real Ejaz peeks through, by way of a slip here and a choice of an incorrect word there.
    “…no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to get back territory…”
    How would Mr. Haider like it, if I make an armed attempt to take his Car from his home ?
    His Car no more belongs to me as the Kashmir Valley belongs to Pakistan.
    “get back” ? When did it ever belong to Pakistan, to get it back ?
    Pakistan, instead of expending energy and budgetary resources to education, industry, economy and jobs, has focused on using military strength to suppress Pakistanis in Bengal and Baluchistan, and picking up needless quarrels with India, Iran, and Afghanistan.
    And trained apologists like Haider to make precise and expansive, but biased arguments to justify themselves.
    I used to like reading his articles in Friday Times….

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  • faraz
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:04PM

    1948 war began by a tribal invasion into Kashmir backed by elements of the army. This wasn’t a minor incursion, it aimed at capturing Srinagar. Pakistan started the 1965 war by attacking Kashmir while India expanded the theatre by attacking Lahore and Sialkot. It doesn’t matter whether the attack was launched across ceasefire line or international borders. These issues have no impact on the conduct of war; they only effect the post war settlements.

    There is no dispute over who started the war of 1948, 65 and 99. From the point of view of military strategy, the timing of 1948 and 65 wars were correct.

    The great Clausewitz writes in ‘On War’:

    ‘Let us suppose a small state is involved in a contest with a very superior power, and foresees that with each year its position will become worse: should it not; if war is inevitable, make use of the time when its situation is furthest from worst? Then it must attack, not because the attack in itself ensures any advantages — it will rather increase the disparity of forces —but because this state is under the necessity of either bringing the matter completely to an issue before the worst time arrives or of gaining at least in the meantime some advantages which it may hereafter turn to account.’

    The conduct of war was laughable, and the generalship was pathetic but the timing of war was correct. Clausewitz was right; the fate of Kashmir was sealed in 1965.

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  • Cautious
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:05PM

    The World doesn’t focus on India’s problems because unlike Pakistan India isn’t exporting their problems to the rest of the World.

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  • Mohan Ram
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:12PM

    Mr. Hider,
    Why don’t you state that because of Pakistan moving its irregulars and regular army into Kashmir, the ruler of Kashmir ceded Kashmir to india and it was only then that the indian army moved inti Kashmir. So please state facts and not assumed facts. May be you were not even born when the 47 war happened, and is using data from Pakistani version of the event.

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  • NITS
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:32PM

    SOUR GRAPES….. my dear pak friends !!! :)

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  • Rock
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:35PM

    The 1947 war began as an indigenous uprising in different parts of the then State of Jammu and Kashmir (J&K). Objection- You better ask the armed tribes. today also they are very proud that they capture POK without knowledge of India. delhi sent indian army to protect the remaining kashmir.

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  • Rock
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:50PM

    Srilankan issue. – Srilankan tamils didn’t had any voting rights forget about other things. They opted violence method which nullfied sympathy. Though initialy Indian tamil supported them. Rajiv gandhi sent forces in srilanka to contain tamil tigers arm revolution but srilankan army expected everything from indian army. Dejected India retracted army. tigers bombed rajiv gandhi and lost sympathy from Indian tamils. Srilankan army started operation Indian army remained neutral but indirectly supported srilankan army. Srilankan army finished tigers and president “Rajapakshe Thanked India.” Now war crime issue is raised by UN.

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  • Naveed Akhtar
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:50PM

    I notice there are more replies to this article from across the border then from Pakistanis. I suggest they read there own bias newspapers because truth hurts. If they are still in doubt please read the post from Sarath in Sri Lanka for a neutral view.

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  • Vicram Singh
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:54PM

    @author: “The ragtag Poonchis and other Kashmiri groups, with help from tribesmen and some elements of the Pakistani military, managed to capture the territory which now forms Azad Kashmir. If they hadn’t, Pakistan would have today needed just the present size of its army to defend the northern salient.”
    From my point of view, if Kashmir had not acceded to India, to use your terminology India would have today needed just the present size of its army to defend the northern salient.Recommend

  • Nathu Lal
    Jul 28, 2011 - 11:55PM

    For those of you who wonder why we, Indians, always write against Ejaz Haider, let me explain how we normally grade articles that appear in Pakistani publications.

    A-grade (90% and above): Only those political commentators can get this grade who believe that partition was a mistake; Pakistan is going down the precipice; and Islamabad can only break its downward spiral if it hires Indian consultants who, of course, have Pakistan’s best interest at their heart.

    B-grade (Between 80% and 90%): This grade goes to those analysts who always indulge in self-flagellation but are somewhat reluctant to accept the fact that only a Shining India can help out their country.

    C-grade (Between 70% and 80%): Journalists who get this grade mostly focus on Pakistan’s shortcomings but wrongly assume that they can address their country’s problems on their own.

    F-grade (70% and below): This grade is for those journalists who must stop writing. They clearly articulate Pakistan’s problems, present viable solutions and describe these challenges as their country’s internal issues! HOW DARE THEY?! WE JUST DON’T LIKE TO SEE THEIR NAME IN PRINT.

    (Oh! Did I mention that A+ is for those Pakistani newspaper readers who are too intimidated to fight us back by leaving a comment to support those journalists who are at the bottom of our grading system and are trying their best to put their country back on track?)Recommend

  • Raj
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:00AM

    @Ejaz Haider : There is no doubt that India helped and groomed Mukti Bahini. But that is 10% of the story. I hope as a columnist you know that partial truth is even worser than lies. So do you now have the guts to come out and tell the rest of the story to your citizens? I am interested to see the reaction of those Pakistanis who are currently going gaga over you.

    P.S. I remember you wrote an article on Salim Shehzad followed by his murder few weeks back. I hope your feelings about your friend and his cause is not revisionist by nature.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:05AM

    Even after kargil operation Mushraf visited india as president or as ex-president of Pak. Pak army men captured the vacaant kargil posts in winter season which is an insult to mutual trust. Indian army unnecessary lost men in this war. Though musharraf denied pak army men’s dead bodies indians gave complete respect even proper final rites. also courier their letters to loveones in pakistan. Indian army chief congratulated few pak officers for good strategies and requested pak army to give them rewards. Why don’t you tell every thing about kargil.

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  • AAK
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:07AM

    Pakistanis on the whole are more realistic about their own problems whilst Indians I have found (certainly on internet forums) think their problems are halwa. This may be because Indian trolls and fundamentalists dominate cyber discussions.

    Any way don’t take Mr Haider’s word for it, listen to what Indian intellectual Pankaj Mishra has to say:

    ”Certainly, an unblinkered vision of South Asia would feature a country whose fanatically ideological government in 1998 conducted nuclear tests, threatened its neighbour with all-out war and, four years later, presided over the massacre of 2,000 members of a religious minority. Long embattled against secessionist insurgencies on its western and eastern borders, the “flailing” state of this country now struggles to contain a militant movement in its heartland. It is also where thousands of women are killed every year for failing to bring sufficient dowry and nearly 200,000 farmers have committed suicide in the previous decade”

    Also I was impressed that the Indian parliament matched the antics of our own jalli-degree parliament:

    ”128 of the 543 members of the last Indian parliament faced criminal charges, ranging from murder to human trafficking, and why armies of sycophants still trail the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty”

    So 1 in 5 Indian politicians faces criminal charges – shining India indeed?

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:09AM

    Thanks for writing this article because of you we are able to understand why you hate india. The reason for this is misunderstanding, wrong information, ignorance of fact. The main thing is ignoring humanisty on other side of the border.

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  • AAK
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:10AM

    Doesn’t India support the Burmese Junta which commits terrible atrocities against its own people? Whoops – I better stay quiet – if Pakistanis talk too much about India, the cyber trolls get worked up – whilst they bash Pakistan at every opportunity.

    All I am saying, people in glasshouses shouldn’t throw stones and all that jazz……

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  • abhi2
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:12AM

    Typical case of sour grapes! The attempt to tackle the issue of Pakistan starting all 4 wars is brave and commendable but too feeble in the ultimate analysis. To quote “…we have to concede that Pakistan lags far behind India in defining the core aspects of its nationhood”, not only that, Pakistan lags far behind India in a lot of other aspects – too many to enumerate here as I’m a slave of the clock – and the author and his country will do better to focus their meagre resources internally. On the whole, Mr Ejaz seems to be clutching at straws to stay afloat and his attempt to defend his country falls flat on its face.

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  • Appalled
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:17AM

    Ejaz Haider’s carefully cultivated veneer of equanimity, cracks, ever so often when the bitter, partisan and, dare I say this, bigoted man who sits under the veneer, comes to the fore.
    In the previous piece it was the pen-picture of Indian pundits crawling on their bellies, in this piece its the justification of ’65 action under the excuse of getting something back.
    This bigotry and the inability to countenance reality have cost Pakistan dearly. Being West Bangladesh – sneeringly as Ejaz Haider brings it up – may already be too far a reach.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:20AM

    India is not military state. India is the largest democracy in the world. Our army is under our babus. Our babus are under parliment. Parliment does not give permission to attack any country as it is against our constitutuion. have you seen our president ? her name is Pratibha patil. She is army supremo – 3 Chiefs of arm services are under her. Army has only one right that is to defend the borders of India.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:27AM

    Mr. ejaz haider , your hate for India will earn popularity in establishment but if you think from another angle your mind will say now is the time to move on. This is the world of internet. People share their things from one part of the globe to another. The world is changingt. You should also try to change. There are bigger problems in our society than this sort of things.

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  • raakbas
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:32AM

    I am glad Ejaz has decided to minus some marks from the Pakistani army. I am sure they are trembling right now for having failed his exam! And what is the point of this article? A lengthy justification or more likely a childish rant about how Pakistan is not always at fault and India is equally if not more, to blame. Just like children complain about their siblings or friends during/after a fight to an elder. Let’s get something straight. Nations states are not equal. And Pakistan will never be equal to a larger and technologically superior India. Over the next 20 years the disparities are just going to increase, as Indian economic growth accelerates.

    You can write all you want, belittle India and cry wolf, but you are not going to get in talks what you could not take by force. Nobody in India is fooled for a minute about ‘the peace process’. And yes whether you like it or not, by 2050, we will be an economic and military super power.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:37AM

    When I think about India in 2001 and compare it with India in 2011. I see the bright light. Right to the information act showed us the dirt in our system. The next 10 years will be concentrated on improving the democratical institution starting from 50% reservation for women in loksabha, Lokpal bill, district level fast judiciay, the long pending police reforms, improvement in village panchayat system and so on. All depends on the performance of the new Big Civil society.

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  • Deb
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:55AM

    More things change, they remain the same. Mr.Haider remains an apologist, not so much for the Pakistan army, but for their misadventures.
    It’s another matter that he articulates it quite well.

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  • Sheheryar
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:58AM

    Mr Tharoor you did the wrong thing! Now you cannot stop the gushing flow of Ejazi river. :)

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  • Realist.
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:11AM

    @Paras Vikmani:
    You Guys Focus On your Problems.
    you’re a Indian Why do you read pakistani papers & above that you continuously Comment ?
    lol
    INDIANS are obsessed with Pakistan , Not the other way round.

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  • Jul 29, 2011 - 1:14AM

    It is my assessment that what probably got Mr Haider’s goat was, among other insinuations by Shashi Tharoor the statement that ‘there is absolutely nothing Pakistan possesses that India wants”.
    This must have hurt, but to any reasonable observer is pretty much what describes the view of middle class India.
    You see, we do not even desire PoK.We are quite happy with our current geographic boundaries, and seek no ‘revisionism’ on that count.
    Pakistan’s situation is different. It does desire Indian Kashmir, which no matter how you couch it, is Indian (UN dispute or not). Its really as simple as that. As long as you hanker for something that will never happen, i.e. wresting Kashmir from India, Pakistan will remain in the revisionist mode.
    As regards the 4 ‘wars’ with India, Mr Haider is shamelessly dissembling, again.
    1947: Indian troops were flown into Kashmir AFTER an invasion by the barbarian hordes from NFWP.
    1965: Operation Gibraltar according to:Dennis Kux: “…..New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan’s attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated”.
    1971: India declared war AFTER first being attacked by Pakistan on the western front.
    1999 Kargill…need I elaborate?
    So who here was the real trouble maker? Who is the revisionist?
    As for China, they are our main competitors in the economic, scientific,cultural and political spheres. The great battle of ideas in these fields will be between India and China, not with a puny, uninspiring and yes, revisionist, Pakistan.

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  • Salman Arshad
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:24AM

    This, as I have noted on a number of
    occasions, is the biggest threat to
    Pakistan.
    p>Mr. Ijaz, this is not only insulting but equivalent to the typical disgusting act of calling every peaceful liberal Pakistani a “traitor”.
    You have conveniently, but in bad taste, forgotten that the Pakistani “narrative” ITSELF has been the reason for our failures.
    The selling and the marketing of the narrative has been fabulous, and it is India that cannot match our marketing skills.
    We have a whole generation post-Zia who truly believes in Pakistan’s self-righteousness and its divine significance and will be ready to suicidally destroy itself if that brings back “the glory of Islam” that we as a “nation” were destined to bring.
    We will even use the “nuclear” option to bring back our “past glory” if its necessary!!!
    Also, we have successfully spread that narrative in the whole world at a level far greater than India could promote its narrative.

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  • Salman Zahidi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:24AM

    Hahaha now we will see so many Indians here coming out from their shells defending their “shining India” :d another bulls eye Ejaz!Recommend

  • harkol
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:29AM

    India occupied Kashmir Illegally?

    India got its legal cover in accession document signed by King of Kashmir, per India Independence act of 1947. King stood by this accession letter and Constituent assembly of Jammu and Kashmir ratified the accession!!

    What was Pakistan’s locus standi in Kashmir? What’s the legal justification for its military regulars to invade Kashmir repeatedly? It’s legal fig leaf cover is that Kashmir has Muslim Majority?! But, then so does Bangladesh!
    UN resolutions happened when India agreed to hold a referendum provided Pakistan vacated occupied territories first. Something Pakistan refused to do. Now UN resolutions are useless for Pakistan of 1947 doesn’t exist anymore. Neither does Kashmir of 1947.

    India is indeed a revisionist nation!!! It doesn’t want to wallow in poverty forever. It wants to be a economically strong nation with considerable influence. But, India isn’t revisionist when it comes to territory – It doesn’t want to win territory through war. Pakistan is revisionist in its territorial quest and doesn’t mind war – as Mr Haider says in this article. It won’t mind being status-quo in other matters – economy, terrorism etc. as long as it can ‘get back territory’!!!

    So, Good luck to Mr. Haider and co, who think it is OK to begin a war to ‘get back territory’!! They have tried before, and perhaps will try again. Hope they realize we are talking about war between nations here, not a school fight over a candy.
    You can keep dreaming of ‘taking Kashmir back’ (What ever that means), while world looses patience with both Pakistan and Kashmiri islamic separatists.

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  • Parvez+Mahmud
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:43AM

    Haider, Very well written. Thanks

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  • LOL
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:15AM

    Its so easy isn’t it, to forget that India had forcibly annexed the Princely States of Hyderabad and Junagadh during partition.Who cares really? India is a status-quo power. It can do no wrong.

    Of course Pakistan is to be blamed, though. It wantonly strolled into and attacked “Indian territory” that India claimed was disputed before the UN. Such vain belligerence!

    It matters not a wit that a serving Indian Army Lt. Colonel was found complicit in the savage murder of 68 Pakistanis in India. Heck no was this terrorism. Nay, state or extra-state, terrorism is Pakistan’s business.

    And why speak of India funding, nurturing and guiding the LTTE or the Mukti Bahini? Any Pakistani who highlights this fact is only delusional and quite obviously on the pay-roll of the terrorist ISI (of course, RAW is an agency that only runs poultry farms). India would never rouse proxy groups against neighbouring countries. For, its neighbouring countries possess nothing that India could possibly want. But say, even if it really does pander to these proxy groups, it never can, god-forbid, be called cross-border terrorism. No, thats something that only Pakistan does.

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  • Jul 29, 2011 - 2:23AM

    Great article. I too must respect India for it’s superior propaganda machine to Pakistan’s. It’s interesting to see Indians masquerading as other nationalities in their comments and trying to discredit him.

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  • amaar
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:24AM

    Well-written and well-argued. The fallacy of the Indian narrative has to be exposed (although the uber-religious nationalism in Pakistan also needs to be defanged).

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  • Ammar Khan
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:26AM

    @Paras Vikmani:

    “Yes Focus on Pakistan, while my Indian writers keep mud slinging Pakistan in their articles”
    Typical Indian hypocrite mentality. Not surprised.

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  • Sajida
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:27AM

    Indian government tends to have blinkered vision. Majority of Indian comments on this site should be plenty proof of that.
    But, consider also these individuals live in a bubble who cannot see beyond their gated communities!
    Indian budget’s two biggest segments are interest payments on debt and defense funding. Meanwhile state tax collection are down despite boom.
    Sounds like Indian leaders if they were logical would try and reduce reasons for the high defense spending.
    http://oakblue.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/union-budget-2011-2012/
    Union budget 2011-2012
    “Over the years, Central transfers to States as ratio to GDP stagnated and consequently, in view of the growing expenditure needs the dependency on own revenues increased. However, the growth of own tax revenues of almost all the States has been on the decline which has aggravated the pressure on the fiscal balances, and in course of time, became responsible for the decline in the quality of expenditure.”
    http://www.adb.org/documents/ reports/consultant/tar-ind- 4066/govtbudget/sarma.pdfRecommend

  • neel123
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:57AM

    The Author talks of China in glowing terms, stating that although India has its soft power spread over a large area as diverse as Russia to middle east to Africa, China in his opinion is ” far far ahead of India”.

    Truth could not be further. China’s list of friends and area of influence is limited to the pariah regimes like N Korea, Pakistan, Myanmar, Sudan and perhaps a few other smaller nations that gang up with China against India.

    In spite of all its shortcomings as listed in his article, the author must accept that India commands respect due to its democratic process of power center that holds the nation together, and not the Pakistani way which shows all the signs of falling apart after 63 years of convulsion.

    And finally, yes India is not the good boy that offers concessions to a bully on platter, India does what it takes to protect its own nation interests, and will do so for ever ….. !

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  • allasia
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:09AM

    Ejaz should not fudge history. It is a fact that it is Pakistan which attacked J&K in 1948 because Raja vacillated about his choices as he has every right to. Pakistan could have waited till he made a decision. But they could not and so they sent they army regulars disguised as tribal warriors to liberate Kashmir (which at that point did not need any liberation). They almost succeeded in occupying J&K. But as is their habit in countless wars they muslim army wanted to party. They indulged in looting, raping, pillaging and plundering the very people they came to ‘liberate’.

    Raja at that point panicked and asked for India’s help. India refused and told him unless he signs the Instrument of Accession they won’t help at which point he did and only then did India intervene. After driving the Pakistani invaders half the way across the state, India did a stupid thing. Instead of finishing off what it started and expelling all the invaders it called for a cease fire and went to the UNO. UN passed a resolution asking Pakistan to vacate it illegally occupied parts of the state of J&K and then to hold a referendum. Pakistan refused to follow this resolution and still refuses to follow. And so it is Pakistan that is in illegal occupation of the state of J&K and not India. Recommend

  • Arun
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:16AM

    But there is absolutely no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to get back territory in occupation of an adversary.

    “Get back?” – Hilarious!

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  • Ali Wazir
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:25AM

    Bravo! A tour de force. Mr Haider I was always a keen follower of your column, but this one is immensely useful. The fact that South Asian Bureau of Major Western News Networks are run by Indians or by journalist of Indian Descent, Historical Revisionism vis a vis the Kashmir Conflict has become the norm.

    Also the fact that Indians have invested heavily in think tanks and their Congressional Caucasus in the United States, means the Pakistani narrative (aka the truth in contest of Kashmir) risk “de legitimization”, to use that terrible phrase.Also the sheer number of Indian Posters in message boards, blogs and Wikipedia articles point towards an organised movement of revisionism not dissimilar to the Israeli Hasbarah.

    Unfortunately Indian mainstream media is very pliant and Indian Intelligentsia have drunk the cool Aid a long time ago. There is very little internal criticism.
    Sometimes I feel Arundhati Roy is the only Honest India (After Gandhi of course).Well at least we Pakistanis can take measured pride in our self questioning and self reflection and constant criticism(often shrill) in our national discourse…

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  • Arun
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:32AM

    The narrative India has of itself holds not because of a strong center or any such; it is because the narrative is close enough to the truth on all counts.

    Pakistan wants peace. But it doesn’t want to become a west Bangladesh, to use Stephen Cohen’s phrase.

    I suppose that since Bangladesh has banned religious parties and cooperates with India on the arrest of jihadis, now Pakistan must further Islamicize, and grow its jihadi cohorts in order not to be a west Bangladesh.

    But there is absolutely no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to get back territory in occupation of an adversary. Pakistan never violated the Indian territory…

    Under that theory, there is nothing to even think twice about 1947, 1965, 1999, or the arming, training, financing and dispatching of terrorists in India (or into J&K, which by the above theory, is always the “getting back of territory in occupation of an adversary”.

    All it would have taken to avoid 1971 was to convene Parliament and let Sheikh Mujibur Rehman become the Prime Minister of undivided Pakistan. Of course, there is nothing to apologize, how can short dark rice eating people who speak a non-Islamic language lord it over the TFTA West Pakistanis? If Pakistan wanted to be ruled by SDREs, why was Partition necessary? There is absolutely no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to prevent that.

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  • Arindom
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:41AM

    Pakistan can only hope to become West Bangladesh!! even comparision of failed-state Pakistan with the rapidly progressing secular Bangladesh is hilarious!!!

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  • plal
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:44AM

    This kind of article looks counterproductive to me, when an attempt is being made by both govt to remove the burden of history in Indo-Pak relation. He is trying to justify the indefensible Pakistani position by fudging facts. The whole world is standing with India as stated by Hillary Clinton of US and James Cameroon of UK ,while castigating Pakistan for its export of terror.In 1947, India marched to Kashmir after it was acceded to Indian union and Pakistani army with tribal militia have already attacked Kashmir.It was not a Kashmiri uprising as these tribal militia were not Kashmiri but from North West and the story is very well explained by Pakistani author Tariq Ali as to how they indulged in rape and looting in Kashmir and particularly in Baramula and how Pakistani Military organised the attack.What is the locus standi of Pakistan in Kashmir, which gives it the right to attack on Kashmir in 1965 ,if it was justified then the Indian allegation that Pakistan is still formenting trouble in Kashmir is not fiction but true. I do not understand as why India should have remained silent in 1965, even after Pakistan has clearly attacked the area in India’s possession.

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  • Sunil
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:45AM

    Ejaz sahib has lost the few marbles he had.

    “I am not advocating war”

    “But there is absolutely no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to get back territory in occupation of an adversary”.

    huh?

    And He considers himself a liberal. Ouch. By the way, we are status quo ist power, because we are willing to settle for the status quo. We stop claiming the territory held by pakistan, you stop claiming our side.

    How tough is it for this liberal to understand? Tharoor sahib was right after all :(

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  • rgg
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:45AM

    This is great fun. Haider keeps showing himself up as one of those Pakistanis who is completely obsessed with his anti-India views. It is really satisfying to see his anger with India tormenting him. I think there are lots of Pakistanis who feel the same way. They can’t accept the fact, that India is doing a much better job of nation building and Pakistan is in a mess. You guys in Pakistan are going thru a period of denial and anger. Denial that you are up the creek without a paddle. Angry and jealous against your bitter rival India for doing better. Instead of owning up to making a complete hash of things, you are bent upon blaming India, who you all mostly hate. (For example, Haider’s columns display his visceral dislike of India). And you also blame America and Israel for you troubles. In reality, you people have no one to blame but yourselves. Accept responsibility for your own failures and then go about doing what needs to be done to fix your country. Its going to take several decades. Until you get over your denial and anger and your tendency to blame others for your problems, you will continue to play the role of losers. When people like Haider stop obsessing about India, then I will believe that you people are ready to take on nation building. Until then, you will continue to amuse people like me and I will continue to read Haider’s angry columns.

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  • Anup
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:54AM

    Reply to Sarath’s comment and India’s role with LTTE. based on what I got to know from different sources on internet let me state the following: “The first country to ban the LTTE was its former ally, India. The Indian change of policy came gradually, starting with the IPKF-LTTE conflict, and culminating with the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi.
    Well that means India did help LTTE initially, but thay understood their mistake pretty soon and corrected their act.
    It would be great if Pakistan too learns from the mistake done by their previous rulers of supporting extremist groups and terrorists and teaching their kids how to hate a nation of which they were a part few decades back. Pakistan and India share the same culture, traditions, language, love for Cricket and bollywood and why is this gap? I wish just the way we saw an end to the Tamil conflict in south we may some day see an end to this conflict in the North.
    It’s easy to learn how to hate but difficult to Love. Lets stop this talk on hatred and spread the message of Love.Recommend

  • Babloo
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:55AM

    Mr Saleem Shehzad’s blood is yet to dry and Mr Ejaz is already out there with establsihment propoganda. Can Pakistan survive policies born out of anathor 60 years of anti-Indianism ?

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  • Taimur Malik (Timorov)
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:22AM

    Ahh such a brilliant piece. Without a doubt the best opinion piece ever published in the Tribune. Kudos Ejaz sahib for speaking the truth. It is quote abundant from the comments on the Tribune opinions and articles how the Indians are all drinking the same coolaid of this narrative that they have so amazingly crafted! Brilliantly done indeed!

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  • Zabar-e-dast Kapoorey
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:28AM

    That’s it Haider, it’s all in marketing. What Pakistan needs is better marketing. I do hope that a sharp guy like you is advising your government and army.

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  • Truth Seeker
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:52AM

    Ejaz haider has every right to be a proud Pakistani, but when he distorts history of Indo-Pak conflicts to prove a point, he enters the domain of a paradox by paying the price in kind of ridiculous arguments.

    Don’t read Pakistani or Indian versions of these conflicts, but read the versions through the eyes of those who were not wearing goggles tinted with Indian or Pakistani colours.
    These two ‘Distant Neighbours’ should realise that battlefields valour, patriotic proclamations played lesser role in the making of history, than secret handshakes and meetings.

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:57AM

    This guy is spreading a lot of lies here. Especially about 1971.

    My god, your army conducted a genocide in East Pakistan and resulted in about 10 million, that is about 10,000,000 (I’m detailing, because, I get a feeling that you have a hard time understanding facts) refugees burdening my country.

    Don’t even bother to tell me that, it was an internal conflict, when you send 10,000,000 of your countrymen seeking asylum in my country, because you want to kill them!

    And Pakistan did start four wars, as per your own admission, because you completely fail to counter these points in this article and instead use some alternative narratives. In fact, some of the reasons are as silly as “the dog ate my homework” kind of excuses.

    It is senseless to say that “India remains singularly and callously unconcerned about the Kashmiris”. India is sensitive to the needs of Indians. If they’re Kashmirirs, then so be it. As long as they remain a part of this country. But just because you are a Muslim occupier or Hindu land and you expect to carve a nation out of it, because your religion teaches you intolerance and insulation, we cannot cater to such people. You come out of your bigoted notions about your religion and be a secular in a secular country and you will get treated equally.

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  • akash
    Jul 29, 2011 - 5:21AM

    @AAK.. yes we are very well aware of the issues plaguing India.. and we unlike Pakistan do not blame anyone else for that.

    Pankaj Mishra or Arundhati roy or others are loved in pakistan because they will never talk about militancy in jammu kashmir started by Pakistan but will harp on negatives of India and thats fine… they are Indian.. they have the right to do that.. they have their opinion.. but what we hate is that please also see where the terrorist came from in Mumbai.

    I am not a huge believer of India shining mantra because we have a long way to go… but in the same vein you cannot deny we have made long strides..

    Anyways the issue we are discussing here is Indo-pak wars in past and not India’s internal problems.. my freinds (as you say indian trolls) do have some genuine points and i think they can make these points anywhere.. especially on web.

    Coming to Mr. Haider’s article.. if senior journalist/writers and members of civil society have a similar view of that of Mr. Haider… then its no surprise pakistan is in mess.

    But to present India as the babe in the wood? Nah; not happening.” Pakistan with its Kashmir agenda and all the brinkmanship over the years have actually helped India become the babe of the world. Thank you very much

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  • Spa_arrow
    Jul 29, 2011 - 6:15AM

    Well another POV that’s all, doesn’t solve anything

    More responses are coming from India because India is MANY TIMES MORE
    1. Literate,
    2. Internet Savvy
    3. Politically conscious

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  • sadhana
    Jul 29, 2011 - 6:48AM

    When Pakistan armed the Afghans gratuitously and refused to let any govt take office peacefully it was ‘statecraft’, when India armed the Mukti Bahini and handed over power to elected leader after the Bengali majority was denied its seats in parliament, India was evil.

    India attempts to be a democracy empowering its people peacefully. Taliban engages in massacres and theocratic manipulations to subjugate its people. But India is an enemy and Taliban is an ally. Pakistan sending armed and trained killers into neighbouring countries for a 1000 cuts is statecraft, India wishing to trade peacefully with those sending armed and trained killers is evil. Random groups of mass murderers calling themselves mujahidin are heroes, Indians who write articles are villians. What more needs to be said about Pakistan and Mr. Ejaz Haider?

    Mr Tharoor, it is the Indian liberals who are deluded.

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  • Mohammed Imran
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:03AM

    So in 1965, Pakistan “crossed” the CFL but India “aggressed” when it crossed the IB in response?

    But in 1971 when India armed the Mukti Bahini, it was a “full-fledged attack” and when Pakistan launched a preemptive air strike on Indian bases on December 3, 1971, it was a ….what?

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  • Anjum
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:05AM

    @Naveed Akhtar:
    Yes, excellent article. We cant even have an internal debate without all the cross border noisy comments. I have heard that most of them are paid to give these comments on a mass level as part of Hindustans projection of it self both for their domestic audience and international. II have several Indian friends and they really know little of history. Its about wealth and bollywood

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  • Jim
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:26AM

    Ejaz Haider’s attempt to sound learned and intellectual is painful, given the toxic and distorted narrative he’s grown up with. It’s reflected well in this article. Good try, but historians NOT of Indian origin have recorded things well. Actually, so have some Pakistani historians, if you care to read them. If you take your blinkers off, you’ll do better. There is not a single worthy figure of authority outside the sub-continent who will attest that India is a revisionist power and attacked Pakistan. Yeah, maybe some hirelings you guys occasionally produce on your television who no one has heard of.

    And the Bangladesh liberation war still rankles, does it? India helped Bengalis in response to the West Pakistani rape and genocide of a million people. Oh, not a million? Just 100,000 did you say? Thank your stars there were no TV cameras those days,. Well, actually there is some footage and coverage so maybe we can still pull it out and have the UN try you guys for war crimes?

    Here’s a fundamental fact — India has existed for over 5000 years; Pakistan wasn’t even a gleam in its founders’ eye till less than a century ago. Get used to it. We will always be there. You won’t. Which is a pity, because we’d like you to be there. Your sad existence is actually a vindication of the idea of India. Your terrible struggles remind us every day how lucky we are, warts and poverty and all, to be India.

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  • Vinod
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:47AM

    It seems Mr. Ejaj Haider has been stung too much lately and is reacting in the only way one would expect.He thinks he is turning the tables on India, he is in reality only exposing his own hollowness.

    Frankly he is exposing himself as a rank amateur, mostly dissembling and not making sense and generally being petty.

    India is in a different league and pulling away further each day. He has still not been able to grasp this basic fact.

    India wants to have nothing to do with Pakistan. That also means not giving an inch of Kashmir, whatever Pakistan may do or not do.

    Come to terms with it. Or nor, we couldn’t care less.

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  • Tony Singh
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:15AM

    Mr. Ejaz your article is precisely – A “Pavlovian” response. (remember?)

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  • American Desi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:19AM

    Mr. Haider is king of half truths. An eloquent and convincing one in that. Among the army of pro establishmet apologists, he is one of the few who is polished. Keep up the denials Mr. Haider!

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  • Frank
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:22AM

    Another magnificent article by Ejaz Haider. Full of unquestionable facts fortified with unassailable logic it has induced severe cognitive dissonance in the Indians here. Unable to put forward any counter arguments they respond with personal attacks and jibes. Ejaz Haider has both the caliber and the courage for independent thought. These are vital qualities that the liberal left in Pakistan lack. Most Pakistani liberals are little more than mindless robots who receive their instructions from the American media.

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  • Tony Singh
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:36AM

    This article is more or less compilation of comments made on Ejaz’s previous two articles. Nothing new has been said here that has not been debated threadbare by commentators in last few days.
    There is only one element of surprise- The author claims “Pakistan stands for peace, but the world fails to understand it.”
    Strange the world does not get it. Maybe the world judges nations by actions not words. No amount of marketing can convince the consumer if the product is no good. And it has given its verdict. Its not Indian marketing skills, but the truth. The world has not accepted Indian nerrative but the truth. And the truth happens to be Indian nerrative.

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:42AM

    @Sarath.

    The LTTE problem started just like the East Pakistan problem. The Srilankan government had (and even today has) some of the most discriminatory laws for any country.

    Tamilians were denied their rights. They were treated like second class citizens in their own country. Srilankan government has committed some of the most unspeakable atrocities on Tamilians. Even today, if your president Rajapakse ever steps foot in UK, he will be arrested on charges of genocide that your country committed in the recent civil war. If you have some knowledge of your country Sarath, then you should know that Rajapakse canceled his visit to UK on the fear of getting arrested.

    Now, coming to the fact the India supported LTTE. India supported LTTE when it was just a liberation front and not a terrorist organization. Just in case you don’t know some facts about your country, India was the first country in the world to ban LTTE as a terrorist organization.

    And Sarath, you should also know (but you don’t, unfortunately) that your president Mahinda Rajapakse thanked India for its support to the Lankan government in eliminating LTTE during the civil war that took place in 2008.

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  • Ankur
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:10AM

    Ejaz,
    You dont seem to have come out of your dialogue with Tharoor, and there’s nothing justified from Pakistan’s side in starting 4 wars on Territorial disputes.
    If you think that the places you mentioned belonged to Pakistan, then Kashmir belongs to Hindustan.
    And what about the roles of leaders such as Atal Bihari Vajpayee in starting peace efforts, when has Pakistan come with such an initiative?
    Does it know only how to make wars, and no nothing about peace.??

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  • Rabid Indian
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:11AM

    Hilarious article !!! I had a good laugh.

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  • Manoj
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:19AM

    living and analysing past serves no purpose, except riasing the emotional aggression against each other. Hence, let us find the path to move forward, for a peacful co-existance, and common goal of prosperours nation.

    Regarding poverty, illitracy, naxal and other millitant activity in india, no govt of india or people of india has ever denied it. We are alive to these problem and economic reform and accelarting the growth rate is one tool to address the problem, apart from many other legislation to contain corruption and increasing the public awareness regarding the rights and duty.

    before I end my comment, I would like to know from Mr. Ejaj, how his series of article about India, it’s people, mindset of people, it’s poverty, unemplloyement or law and order problem helps Pakistan to become a better nation? As long as India’s internal problem does not harm Pakistan in any way, he does not need to worry and comment.

    Indians on ET only comment on Pakistan becuase it’s terrorist factory harms India and the world at large.

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  • amit
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:28AM

    No one is obsessed with Pakistan.. you hardly see any indians commenting or writing about other developments that happen inside Pakistan.

    We ‘become’ obsessed when lies and half truths regarding India are passed as absolute truth.
    I think before mumbai no one really cared what an average pakistanis thought. Things are different now…everyone gets worked up and its good to be united. This article or any pakistani media would not have garnered even 25% of Indian attention before mumbai (that includes me).Recommend

  • sumeet
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:39AM

    just two articles by indians.one by aatish taseer and one by shasi tharoor.and look at the pakistani liberals they have already written four articles(excluding this one).what a knee jerk reaction and apologetic way you people are behaving.tod ay there is an article in the oriya newspaper “dharitri” about pakistan’s double game.are u going to write rebuttal to that article also or for that matter every article in every newspaper in the world which do not share you view about pakistan?and i dont want any foolish indian liberal to write rebuttal to this apologetic article. Recommend

  • Noor
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:46AM

    The article started off very well. I was hoping for a dispassionate analysis of the relationship (for lack of a better word) between India and Pakistan.
    Nobody with half a brain would ascribe to nations the moral values that define the character of individuals. Therefore, even though state policy might seem abhorrent and evil at times, it is what nations do and have done since time immemorial.
    However, the question that begs to be asked is : To what end these games? People mired in poverty, need and bigotry, a radicalized population, hatred and sheer ignorance on both sides of the border, twisted histories and the repudiation of a shared inheritance.
    European powers shrugged off eons of mutual distrust and hostility in a snap after WWII to vastly improve the lives of their populace. We, in the subcontinent seem to be loath to do so.
    Sometimes, I feel that we are still a pre-industrial, tribal people smeared with a veneer of civilization. Even the veneer wears thin at most times.
    As regards Kashmir, Pakistan had no right to ‘Take it Back’. You can only take back what is or was rightfully yours.
    My childhood in Kashmir (Indian Kashmir) is a fading memory. The war that Pakistan unleashed on the valley in the late eighties coupled with the brutal response of the Indian state devastated Kashmir.
    But even more insidious and evil was what it did to the social fabric of the valley. the kind of social harmony, brotherhood and peace that the valley enjoyed was scarcely found anywhere else in India before 1989.
    The religious obscurantism, bigotry and social disruption that Pakistan engineered is irreversible.
    The Kashmir of old breathes its last .. vanishing like the early morning mist on Dal lake at the break of day. Recommend

  • anil
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:50AM

    @Mr.Haide…

    It seems the era of admitting ur own mistakes has come .The author has admitted that Pak had attacked India four times,which pak people never admit .The writer also admits that Pak military captured POK and current GB. But see the sequence of the words in the line.
    "**The ragtag Poonchis and other Kashmiri groups, with help from tribesmen and some elements of the Pakistani military, managed to capture the territory which now forms Azad Kashmir**"

    The line means that Pak army’s role in capturing POK and GB was negligible.

    Lastly write has said “Pakistan wants peace”.History says pak never wanted peace.How can a country want peace by attacking another 4 times ?How can a country want peace by helping USA to dismantle USSR territory ?But for ur kind info ,India doesn’t want peace with Pak atall.What can we expect from a failed nation.Chest beating is not a solution.

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  • Moi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:58AM

    Wow so many ad hominem attacks against the author. Don’t like what he has to say? Cut this person down.

    I find it hard to imagine why Indians won’t realize the fact that it has always been India to commence hostilities across the international border. Indians go on long complaints of how Kashmir was always apart of India, while remaining amnesiatic to the fact that they themselves approached the UN and claimed it was disputed.

    Sending refugees over into another country is, by all international standards, not an act of war. By the same token, perhaps then Pakistan should have declared total war on Afghanistan as millions of Afghan refugees flooded into Pakistan in the ’80’s, thanks to the US sponsored Jihad. ’71 was an internal problem of Pakistan, just as the Maoist insurgency in India is today. It is only India that turned it into an Indo-Pak war.

    India keeps harping about being a status-quo power. Is that really so? Then why these outstanding claims over Azad Kashmir and Aksai Chin? Why the dispute with Nepal over Kalapani and with Bangladesh over enclaves? India should accept the status-quo and relinquish them.Recommend

  • harkol
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:08AM

    Have heard so much about Illegality of Indian occupation of Kashmir.

    Can someone enlighten me the legality of Pakistan occupation of Kashmir? It neither had a accession by its erstwhile king, nor a plebiscite by its people acceding to Pakistan. UN Resolutions require it to vacate Kashmir portions it has occupied.

    So, what is its justification?

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:31AM

    Fellow Indians: Even after writing so many comments against Ejaz Haider, I haven’t received my paycheck from the External Affairs Ministry this month. Is the same thing happening to you?

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  • Hasan
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:31AM

    Good article once again. As comments on this article show, Indian hyper-nationalist are not very intelligent which means Pakistan is not facing a very smart adversary. Chinese are very hyper-nationalist too but don’t come across as fools making idiotic arguments. Pakistan should develop counter strategies to success of Indians in selling themselves as “ally” to the West particularly the U.S. which is likely to remain only superpower for at least next 30 – 50 years. Distancing itself from Saudi petro-dollar and adopting a Turkey like model will greatly improve its position and standing.

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  • Kafka
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:39AM

    I am always amazed at seeing so many Indians commenting on Pakistani news website. I do not think if even a single Indian changes his opinion by reading Ejaz’s articles or vice versa for Shashi Tharoor’s articles. But mark my words, only great nations can laugh on themselves, and accept their past mistakes. While there is a growing trend in Pakistan to question history and events as they happened, Indians continue to suffer from paranoia. By looking at our Indian friends comments, one can see it is not going to change soon, translating into the fact that peace is still far away.

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  • G Ali
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:47AM

    All these Indians who show up on these sites and gives Pakistanis advice should look at their own country first, with 80% people living below poverty line you don’t have much to write home about.

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  • observer
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:47AM

    @AAK

    Doesn’t India support the Burmese Junta which commits terrible atrocities against its own people?

    OOPS, India does not, but ‘higher than mountains friend’ China does. It is even building a naval base there.
    India in fact supports Suu Kyi, who also studied in India.

    http://www.economist.com/node/16996935

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  • observer
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:59AM

    @Ejaz Haider

    If an ‘indegenous uprising’ of ragtag Kashmiris and kabailis and ‘elements of the army’ is acceptable, why should one froth at the gills about another ‘indegenous uprising’ by ragtag Bengalis and ‘elements’ of the Indian Army.

    And if the tag ‘disputed territory’ justifies Pakistan’s attempt at ‘claiming back territory under adversarial occupation’ then will the same tag also justify Indian attempt at ‘claiming terrotory under adversarial occupation’?

    And if India violated all norms of civil behaviour by attacking across the international border when Pakistan had merely crossed the LOC, then will Pakistan assure India that if at some future date India crosses the LOC to reclaim ‘disputed territory’ Pakistan will not resort to strikes across the international borders?

    Dissembling anyone?

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  • Feroz
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:02AM

    The author cannot alter history by feeding a false narrative. The problems of the two countries are very different but equally challenging. One is a rising Power that knows where it wants to go, the other cannot figure out what it wants to be. The Indian citizen is keen on a better tomorrow and is focused on bringing the positive change, the Pakistani citizen is still trying to break free from the ruling minority that is suppressing it in the name of ideology.
    In India the supremacy of Parliament is unchallenged while Pakistan is still taking baby steps in that direction. It is better that the two countries concentrate on making life better for their people rather than waste time and resources on adventurism and grand standing. A country’s standing in the global comity of nations will be determined by its actions, not sweet talk. Those frequently travelling abroad will frankly tell you how the globe views your country.Recommend

  • Adi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:23AM

    Excellent, excellent piece Ejaz…so good to note our journalists writing in english papers showing some patriotism!

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  • woohoo
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:25AM

    @AAK:

    So 1 in 5 Indian politicians faces
    criminal charges – shining India
    indeed?

    Feel free to emigrate to Pakistan

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  • Harish Puri
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:25AM

    Seeing how their economic and social/human indicators are far superior to Pakistan’s, perhaps, becoming a `West Bangladesh’ may be an actual UPGRADE!

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  • Tony Singh
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:30AM

    The 1965 war was a mistake. Much has been written about it inside Pakistan. But there is absolutely no reason to be apologetic about making an armed attempt to get back territory in occupation of an adversary. Pakistan never violated the Indian territory: It crossed what was then the CFL (ceasefire line). The fact is that it was India that aggressed against Pakistan directly when it attacked across, and violated, the international border.”
    How should one take it Mr. Haider.?
    1. If you have made a mistake, you should be apologetic about it.
    2. If there is no wrong in going to war over disputed territory, then India too should consider an aggressive approach on POK to win back what is rightfully its territory (regardless of what you say – you are advocating it anyway)
    3. Its strange logic – You attack a country and expect no response from it. By occupying and then returning the land back, Indians had sent a message to Pakistan then where it stood vis -a-vis India. But sadly Pakistan did not learn the lesson then. It repeated the same mistake in Kargil. And yet you say you are country of peace!

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  • Vicram Singh
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:45AM

    @Rock: ” Fellow Indians: Even after writing so many comments against Ejaz Haider, I haven’t received my paycheck from the External Affairs Ministry this month. Is the same thing happening to you? “

    I get mine from R.A.W. No problems so far.

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  • sharifL
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:48AM

    I see many Indian friends on board. We should not forget that there are also other Indians who show more mature opinions. although their number is not that large.
    In my view, the winner of this discussion is Tribune which allows open discussion and allows extreme views of Indians about Pakistan. At least we know now where we stand. It is better this way than living in a fool’s paradise. hats off to Tribune.

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  • saeed ahmad
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:51AM

    Good Show.. Ejaz…

    AT least someone is talking sense…!

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  • TARUN
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:00PM

    Maybe Mr Haidar can actually take the positive example of Bangladesh rather than detesting becoming another West bangladesh to India:
    1) bangladesh started with per capita income less than half of erstwhile west pakistan but is today at par with pakistan in per capita income despite significantly smaller resource base and greater population density.
    2) bangladesh is freely trading with India despite threats of Indian products flooding its market. It has instead sought Indian investment and turned more competitive in response to India which has only pushed its economic growth.
    3) bangladesh and India may not be the best of neighbours but it is not pointing nukes at India knowing fully well that the retaliation will finish it. Only desparate nations like Pakistan blinded by their hatred are.
    4) Finally pakistan by 2030 will be the poorer and more illeterate than all south asian nations. What an achievement!

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  • Ghori
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:01PM

    The Indian Establishments views on Pakistan have been clear from day one after partition. Whatever they may say, till date they have not come to terms with Pakistan’s existence. Thanks Mr. Ejaz Haider for this article and setting the record straight. By the number of Indian’s posting comments on this article its clear they suffer from a very unhealthy obsession with Pakistan.

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  • Abhi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:03PM

    so in 47 it was not regular Pak army but “Indigenous” uprising. Then in 1965 it was the war to “get back’ the teritory? I think similar excuse can be given for Kargil in 1999 I don’t know why author “deducted the marks” here.

    Kashmir is disputed and it includes POK as well. So should India start sending “Indigenous” terrorists in POK and later in other part of Pakistan? Or should India wage a war to “get back” the teritory of northen areas? Bottom line is while we see Hafiz Saeed and Dawood Ibrahim kind of people roaming freely in Pakistan, Indians air crafts being hijacked and taken to Pakistan (remember the Indian Plane taken to Lahore in 1971 which was burned down later)

    You guys didn’t want to be a West Bangladesh in 1971 and that is the reason why Bangladesh is an Independant country.

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  • Ranjit
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:18PM

    @Rock:
    My dear Rock…..I as a Indian will fight for India at any forum,any front which gives distorted,biased,wrong picture of India.We don’t need government approval for doing this.Being Indian is a proudest thing.We may have a lot of short coming,there is a need of improvement.I believe we are in right track.

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  • Sanjeev Jha
    Jul 29, 2011 - 12:49PM

    Ejaz Sahaab has made three things quite clear.

    India is set to become a Power house nation (by 2030 atleast).

    No Matter what Pakistan does for IOK (Indian occupied Kashmir), it will be still Indian Kashmir.

    He is a true Gandhian – “Never saw Pakistan Evil” .Recommend

  • R S JOHAR
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:03PM

    Pakistanis as per past record had always been bad losers, whether it was cricket, hockey or war between the two countries.

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  • Ravi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:19PM

    Just how many contradictions one will make in such a short piece ! Pathetic.

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  • Moi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:20PM

    @narayana murthy:

    You justify Indian meddling in a sovereign nation’s affair by saying:

    The LTTE problem started just like the East Pakistan problem. The Srilankan government had (and even today has) some of the most discriminatory laws for any country.
    Tamilians were denied their rights.

    I hope you do realize that your argument then justifies Pakistan’s support for Kashmiri separatists as well.

    Good day.

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  • Abhi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:25PM

    @Rock
    Ha ha …
    I am also waiting for mine.

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  • Moi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:37PM

    @harkol:

    My dear fellow what is the justification of Indian’s occupation of Kashmir? Even the instrument of accession that you so gleefully exhibit to the world was signed under duress and under the shadow of parachuting Indian soldiers. You guys go even far enough to fudge the actual date of the signing of the instrument. And then you call us delusional?

    Recent research, from British sources, has indicated that Hari Singh did not reach Jammu until the evening of 26 October and that, due to poor flying conditions, V P Menon was unable to get to Jammu until the morning of 27 October , by which time Indian troops were already arriving in Srinagar.

    Care to read:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1762146.stm

    And what to speak of Hyderabad and Junagadh? If you ask us to honour the instrument of accession of Kashmir (no matter how frivolous), then first honour the instrument of accession of Junagadh.

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  • sidharth
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:40PM

    @Sajida:
    do you understand the difference between slowdown in tax ‘growth’,and slowdown in tax collection?

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  • Frank
    Jul 29, 2011 - 1:50PM

    harkol

    Can someone enlighten me the legality
    of Pakistan occupation of Kashmir? It
    neither had a accession by its
    erstwhile king, nor a plebiscite by
    its people acceding to Pakistan

    AJK and the Rajouri and Poonch districts of Indian occupied J&K are historically, linguistically and ethnically parts of West Punjab. The clans who live in these areas are a part of the Punjabi Muslim community. They are not Kashmiris. In 1947 these Punjabis and especially those in the districts of Poonch and Mirpur overthrew a foreign leader imposed on them by the British and established an alternative government in J & K. This alternative government had just as much lethal authority and a lot more moral authority than the British puppet Dogra ‘king’. This alternative government joined Pakistan. There is a similar story in Gilgit-Baltistan. Pakistan therefore has both the legal and the moral authority for a presence in the state of J & K. .

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  • Ali
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:17PM

    Well said Ejaz Sahib!

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  • MS - Mariya
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:25PM

    Good job Ejaz! Aur jiyo hazaaron sal!

    Its soo fun to see Indians obsessed about us..I mean seriously they write long comments on our news site..come back to reply. Indians jealousy and obsession with us is soo flattering!

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  • Raja
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:27PM

    I sent Ejaz a email when he moved out of Daily Times/ Friday Times that in my mind he was the best journalist in South Asia. He has this great ability to plug current happenings into theoretical and conceptual constructs and analyse those happenings in that context in a very clinical fashion. In that sense, he almost read like a scholar.Recommend

  • Ravi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:31PM

    I thought I was reading an article in ‘The Nation’. One thing is clear, if these are the types of intellectuals & opinion makers available in Pakistan, its downfall will only accelerate. Sad indeed.

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  • uk muslim
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:37PM

    after reading this article i am so much confused now… history books which i read here in concil libraries suggest very opposite…. who is right… haider or western authors… i am so much confused.

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:41PM

    @MS – Mariya. It’s more of a fear. Just like I would be afraid of poisonous snakes in my neighborhood…always be watchful…cautious…trying to shoo it away, as it gets close to the fence. After all it’s a question of the safety of my family, right, Mariya?

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  • MS - Mariya
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:51PM

    @amit:
    Cut the hogwash about you indians not being obsessed . The fact that you come on this site regularly to talk negative is pure evil obsession and nothing less. You admit that you dont bother to comment about other development issues shows you are bigot and hater.

    Stop the nonsense of Mumbai attacks being your reason for turning into a bigot. One is raised as a bigot and only find excuses like the Norway killer Anders Behring.
    I have stopped reading your newspaper long time back. Even when i use to read it, thanks god i was not raised like you to have ever written anything negative. To comment on the minorities killings or corruption cases in India is giving you way too much importance than you guys deserve.

    But i feel good that my enemies are soo consumed in hating me…writing negative stuff about me that they have become blind to their own issues. Your end, my bigot neighbor, has started! good luckRecommend

  • P N Eswaran
    Jul 29, 2011 - 2:52PM

    Wonder what poverty and Taliban style panchayat to do with identity? Identity is what one feels about oneself and not about what others think about them.

    “we have to concede that Pakistan lags far behind India in defining the core aspects of its nationhood.”. There is no explicit expression of Indian identity. Indian Identity is not monolithic but a multiplicity of identities existing in harmony with itself. Celebration of diversity is at the core of Indian psyche.

    BTW, who says Pakistan has no identity? Yes, It developed 20 years after it came into existence. Pakistan should thank Zia who gave them their true identity. “Pakistan Ka matlab kya hai? La illaha illalha!” Today, in Pakistan, according to PEW report, most Pakistanis want a Calipha and Sharia. Is Mr. Ejaz Haider having problem with Pakistanis thinking about their identity and not feeling it?

    Anyway, there is no connection between the issue of identity and the subject of the article.

    Mr. Tharoor may not have imagined that his casual remark about Pakistan would leave Mr. Haider expound over 3 consecutive articles and perhaps few more in the next few days. Mr.Haider needs to have more belief in himself when so many look towards him as a leading intellectual defending innocent Pakistan against the vile world.Recommend

  • MS - Mariya
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:03PM

    @narayana murthy:

    hahaha what a joke…How old are you..i mean mentallyY?!?

    You compare ‘coming at your will’ on Pakistani news site equal to watching snakes! hahaha

    Narayana Murthy you are soo consumed with hate and obsessed with your neighbours. Coming on Pakistan news site to spew hate is digging your own grave.

    The below is especially for your my neighbour

    ”I am a little deaf, a little blind, a little impotent, and on top of this I blame my neighbours for my miserable self’Recommend

  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:09PM

    @Moi, who says…

    “I hope you do realize that your argument then justifies Pakistan’s support for Kashmiri separatists as well.”

    I am extremely glad you brought this point.

    No. You are wrong. Kashmir has got no similarly with Tamil issue in Lanka or East Pakistan.

    How?

    Let me gladly answer you. Kashmir has equal rights in India as all other states. Kashmiri Language (compare it with Bengali and Tamil), enjoys equal rights with other Indian languages. Kashmiri Muslims (now compare it with Tamilians and bengalis) enjoy equal rights as other Indians (Hindus, Christians..blah blah…you know how it goes).

    Now, let me up the ante a little bit. In India, Muslims (from reservation to special religious rights) have more rights than Hindus. In India, Kashmir (it has a special status) enjoys more rights than other states do.

    In other words, being a Kashmiri Muslim is the most privileged person in India.

    If only Pakistan stops the export of terror, these people can enjoy a peaceful life without guns. If Pakistan stops waging wars (how i wish), India can withdraw troops from Kashmir and Kashmiris can enjoy their special rights without guns.

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  • Tony Singh
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:12PM

    @Ghori:
    Ejaz is not setting the record straight, but is trying to alter a straight record.(vainly)

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:13PM

    @UK muslim,

    Stick to the history you learned in UK. Pakistan is not known for honesty (latest cases in point – Osama and Fai). The history they teach is less than honorable.

    watch this – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K57q_914QAU .

    This interview of Asghar Khan, disproves Ejaz Haider’s comments on all four wars.

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:17PM

    @Hasan who says “Good article once again. As comments on this article show, Indian hyper-nationalist are not very intelligent which means Pakistan is not facing a very smart adversary.”

    Yes, you don’t have a smart adversary, otherwise after winning four wars, India wouldn’t have still been a victim of terror.

    Yes, Indians are not intelligent also, that’s why we are failing in all aspects of life.

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  • Roflcopter
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:19PM

    Good article, the indian comments here are a proof this article is spot on.

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  • Realist
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:46PM

    Ejaz, just count the negative Indian replies. You scored man! Keep it up! And don’t lend an ear to what they say. They are enemies after all. What else can we expect from them on a pro-Pakistani article.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:48PM

    @Vicram Singh:

    I always knew that R.A.W. had more funds than the Ministry of External Affairs. But I was under the impression that they were only using that money to prop up and train Mukti Bahinis and LTTEs in the region.

    I had no idea that they were also fighting a cyber war like this!

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 3:52PM

    @Ranjit:

    Hmm! So you have got your paycheck!

    Damn! I hate these administrative issues at the ministry :(

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  • Y Khan
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:09PM

    Fantastic article! You are so right about controlling the narrative. In the United States the prevalent narrative is that they are a good people where as all those that they fight (vietnamese, Iraqis, Afghans etc) are forces of evil. Similarly all the countries that support them are the allies where as the opposing countries are the axis. The use of overwhelming force (A-bomb in Japan etc, Iraq etc) is necessary to save American lives. The relatively newer powers in the world have started adopting similar narratives. India is a great example and Israel is even a better example. The history according to Israelis and the West is that the Palestinians actually sold their land to Jews and left, no one talks about the terrorism initiated by the Israelis to scare Palestinians out of the territories. In the US try discussing the Palestinian point of view and in no time one is labelled an anti-semite.

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  • Salman
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:09PM

    We will keep putting our hands on India until they won’t keep their hands off us @Paras Vikmani: Recommend

  • Arun
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:27PM

    Please give an original citation for the research that shows V.P. Singh reached only on Oct 27. (You will find that this “recent British research” is from the “Kashmir Study Group”).

    You guys are really good at manufacturing history. Ejaz Haider continues in this proud tradition.

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  • vasan
    Jul 29, 2011 - 4:49PM

    Ranjit : You are @Rocking
    MS- Mariya and others who think Indians are obsessed with Pakistan :
    It is not obsession, It is an attempt to educate the cousin of realities and truth

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  • TP
    Jul 29, 2011 - 5:21PM

    I am a Pakistani and ex-military. Pakistan is going through a phase in its existance where it needs deep introspection and corrective action. This does not mean that it has to be complacent towards external threats. However, it needs to have a realistic balance between the two. I am not interested in countless redefinitions of history as they are counter-productive and it is not because there is some guilt but it raises ill feelings among generations that were not even born when those events happened. Bad things happened but do we really need to avenge ancestors that we did not even know, especially someone else’s ancestors in many cases.

    Both countries have exhibited ill intentions towards each other and have refused to work together to raise over a billion intelligent, industrious and enterprising South Asians out of poverty. And I am sick of the “… they started it …” attitude on both sides of the border.

    And for my Indian friends, if you think that you economic and technological development (much as I appreciate it) is crackless, take a deep look again. Look at the dependencies in your economic and technological models and policies and see which way those dependencies are heading. You will be worried. Still, I agree that Pakistan needs a lot to learn here, primarily, if it is looking for instruments of national power, it should not neglect people, economy and industry as those instruments as well. It has to build and strengthen all Pakistanis and not just the Pakistan Army.

    In the last decade or more, I have worked with many Indians globally and have many Indian friends. I wish we could put our differences aside and work for a better future, our own future.

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  • akash
    Jul 29, 2011 - 5:35PM

    @frank
    Full of unquestionable facts fortified with unassailable logic it has induced severe cognitive dissonance in the Indians here blah blah blah.. wow we are impressed.

    Unable to put forward any counter arguments they respond with personal attacks and jibes
    Majority of Indians who write here have not been personal to Mr. Haider or even to other fellow commentators.
    Since you hold unassailable command over English language.. you can very well see that none of the articles by Mr Haider (past few days) actually answers the points raised by Indians.
    We of course do not doubt Mr Haider’s good artistry with words.

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 5:49PM

    @Tony Singh.

    What India did in 1965, 1971 and during the conflict are unknown to ordinary pakistanis. They read their textbooks, which teach them that most of these were victories.

    Pakistanis don’t know that in 1965, India returned the land that it had gained to maintain Status Quo.

    In 1971, India returned 90,000 Pakistani POWs. India could have kept them and bargained POK from Pakistan. India could have handed over these prisoners to Bangladesh, which would have invariably been butchered without any trial.

    Even during Kargil conflict, India was praised for not going beyond LOC. It had all the reasons, right and most of all, moral ground to do so. But, we did not.

    However, for people like Ejaz Haider, and millions of Pakistanis, these things are not about maintaining status quo.

    I want to challenge Pakistanis to counter my points. prove that India had indeed been the aggressor and has been revisionist, as Ejaz Haider so erroneously puts and fails to prove.

    Sometimes, I think it’s absolutely futile to be reasonable with Pakistan.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 5:52PM

    @Rock: listen you fake rock. You don’t have real guts. I have unlimited but slow internet access. I pay for it. Nothing comes free in India. I am just hard working middle class Indian. I worked hard in the past will do the same in future. When I get time I jump into social service, be it corruption or anything else. I am an Indian and I will defend India till my last breath. I am glad that my comments shown you the real picture. Chill dear, stop using my identity if you can’t argue then (). :)

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 5:57PM

    @Ranjit: You know some pakistani can’t argue with me. They always call me an agent who get payment for writing comment on this forum. Today one of them have used my name to fulfil his anger. Funny :)

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 6:02PM

    @Moi, who says “Sending refugees over into another country is, by all international standards, not an act of war.”

    Okay, then arming the refugees in our own land is also not an act of war, by all international standards. Afterall, no Indian attacked pakistan army in Bangladesh. It was Mukthi Bahini. Completely Bangladeshi.

    “By the same token, perhaps then Pakistan should have declared total war on Afghanistan as millions of Afghan refugees flooded into Pakistan in the ’80′s”

    LOL. This is absolutely hilarious, hahaha! You are actually thinking that Pakistan should have attacked Afghanistan, which was ruled by Pakistan backed Taliban in 2001?! Genius Moi! brillian Pakistani at work.

    “, thanks to the US sponsored Jihad.”

    NO. Thanks to Pakistan sponsored Taliban.

    “’71 was an internal problem of Pakistan, just as the Maoist insurgency in India is today. It is only India that turned it into an Indo-Pak war.”

    Well, NOOOOOOO. Indians are not pouring into Pakistan because of Maoist insurgency, burdening your economy, that too in millions (1 million = 1,000,000).

    It is only Pakistan, that turned 1971 into Indo-Pak war.

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  • Rock
    Jul 29, 2011 - 6:13PM

    @MS – Mariya: how will any Indian accept fudging the historical facts? Your educatioaist already pointed out in your textbooks. Now Mr. haider is repeating the same. what do you expect in return.

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  • menteliscio
    Jul 29, 2011 - 6:18PM

    ahhh. so content and soothing to see comments by my indian fellows. They always lead discussion on pakistan wearing self-righteous cloaks but turn black the minute india is discussed.

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  • Salman
    Jul 29, 2011 - 6:20PM

    Mine mine ..just look that how many Indians here popping up from every where :d

    well written ..some thing which Indians don’t want to believe in

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  • Moi
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:08PM

    @narayana murthy:

    I absolutely agree with you. Muslims in India today enjoy special status that no other community can hope to have. Their special status is of deprivation and social turpitude.

    The Sachar Report of 2006 succinctly brought this into the limelight. It highlighted how Muslims are actively discriminated against in India. It went on to actually say that that Muslims are even more disadvantaged than the historically most disadvantaged communities, the Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.

    http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/columns/Harsh_Mander/article1471434.ece

    And of course Kashmir also enjoys an enviable special status in India’s occupying polity. Its citizens live under the gratifying Armed Forces Special Powers Act. More than half a million Indian troops hound their towns and villages, killing stone throwing children and raping women at will.

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/kashmir-chilling-stories-of-the-children-of-conflict-42028

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/indian-kashmir-shuts-down-in-protest-over-alleged-abduction-rape-of-a-woman-by-troops/2011/07/23/gIQA967rUI_story.html

    In other words, being a Kashmiri Muslim is the most privileged person in India.

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  • bc49er
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:11PM

    Pakistan, land of the pure. A nation universally disliked. Ask any man on the street in any nation. Please return to your secular roots. Please, please, please.

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  • Noor
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:23PM

    @Frank:

    Interesting view.
    Most of the Muslim Punjabi speaking areas of the state are already in Pakistan’s posession.
    What exactly was the proportion of this Punjabi speaking section of the populace w.r.to the entire population of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir?
    Citing a favorable insurrection by a small ethnic group in a territory is scarcely a good excuse for an armed incursion.

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  • sadhana
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:23PM

    This is what I don’t get – it is not about Indian narrative vs Pakistani narrative and one submitting to the other. It is about Pakistan making the right choices for itself.

    Indians like Mr Tharoor advocate pro-Indian choices. If Ejaz Haider considers the anti-India choices to be right, what goes of any Indian’s father? Don’t accept the Indian diagnosis, fine. It will not necessarily make the Indian diagnosis wrong- time will tell.

    Pakistan is lucky that while simultaneously waging war on and killing American and Indian soldiers and civilians, both these countries are not really fighting back – they are offering Pakistan multiple opportunities to change policy without suffering conflict.

    How long will such overtures be politically sustainable in the US and India, do people like Ejaz Haider think about this while abusing both parties?

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  • Mawali
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:37PM

    I’d say on the level, and frankly the geopolitical tussle that India seems occupied with serves only to India’s eventual detriment I say this with utter sincerity.
    For all the fear mongering and accusations of Pakistan’s obsession with India Cohen correctly points to the Pakistan centric prevalent attitude amongst the Indian establishment. And as he correctly points out that the “1971 war confirmed the worst fears of the Pakistani strategists.”
    India has a bright future and in the interest of self preservation it behooves the Indian establishment to cease and desist with duplicitous policy towards Pakistan in specific and greater South Asia in general. We most definitely do not Choudhary’ in this neighborhood!

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  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:45PM

    @Salman who says “We will keep putting our hands on India until they won’t keep their hands off us”

    Funny. We never kept our hands on you. However, you keep burning your hands.

    So, I don’t understand your logic.Recommend

  • narayana murthy
    Jul 29, 2011 - 7:59PM

    @TP.

    Absolutely gem of a point.

    Every Indian will agree with you. So, how do you do this?

    There are contentious issues, which may take decades to solve – Kashmir, Siachen, sir Creek, water etc.

    However, there are other issues, which can be resolved today – economic co-operation, cultural exchange, reduction of spending on military, alleviation of poverty…

    I, as a commoner, who don’t know all the overt and covert policies of my government, still guarantee you that India will not attack Pakistan, wantonly. Pakistan also must make sure that anti-India groups don’t cross the border or attack our civilians. We will even forget Mumbai attacks, if Pakistan agrees to work on these models. ONLY IF PAKISTAN CAN AGREE TO THIS. Look to the future!

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  • Hari
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:24PM

    I find the comment by the author about Pakistan talking to India about “force rationalization” very funny!!! Like most Pakistanis, he seemed to be under the delusion that India and Pakistan are equal and India’s security needs are the same as Pakistan. Here is a reality check, in case you haven’t noticed. India is about 7 times bigger than Pakistan. Hence, it defense capabilities, based on the same parity, should be at least 7 times that of Pakistan. So, where does the question of “force rationalization” with Pakistan arise?!!!

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  • hamza khan
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:48PM

    @harkol:

    hahaha…economically strong nation? have you seen the poverty figures in your country. the rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer. i am amazed at the level of hypocrisy that indians have about themselves. go take a visit to the nether regions of your country and take a look at the poverty. you have no chance of solving that poverty for the next 40 years. good luck being a ‘shuper duper power.’ remember, china is always gonna be 10 steps ahead of you. Recommend

  • Tilsim
    Jul 29, 2011 - 8:58PM

    Our best minds such as yourself should focus on our own issues and try to fix them rather than obsessing with a giant neighbour. A neighbour with which we have no reasonable alternative but to develop a positive relationship in order for both countries to realise their potential. I don’t care if they think that they are the a gift to peace and mindkind and we are the world’s worst evil empire. Both arguments are not true – we should discard this way of looking at national relations. We have to focus on finding a modus operandi that is peaceful and a narrative that recognises the prosperity and sense of well being that building peace and trade will bring to the people of India and Pakistan.

    Stop holding us back!!!Recommend

  • Kanishka
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:04PM

    Well Mr Ejaz,

    Pakistan was divided on the lines of Religion… If you claim Kashmir in 2011 on the same lines then you should also take all the 150 million Indian muslims as well into Pakistan and treat them like the Mhajirs of Karachi…..

    All Indians know and believe that entire Pakistan till Hindukush is an Indian territory… You guys are simply occupying the Indus Valley …..As Pakistani’s themselves claim their ancestors came from Iran, Turkey, Arabia, Uzbek(mughals) etc…

    So by that logic who is occupying whose land ??? Hindu Land has been occupied by Pakistanis since long…. Should India claim it since anyways you have no repect for that holy land , mountais and the rivers ????

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  • Mohammed Imran
    Jul 29, 2011 - 9:28PM

    In my 32 years, the reported poverty rate has gone down from 45.2% to 23.6%. There are a ton of poor people in India, yes. But every year, 40 million Indians rise out of poverty, buy motorcycles, buy cellular phones and save up to send their kids to college.

    It’ll take a while, but we’re a patient civilization. We’ll get there and we’re on the right track.

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  • Indian
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:19PM

    Reading this article I think Shashi Tharoor would want to make a change to his last article in the Deccan Chronicle where he had counted Ejaz Haider among Pakistan’s liberals. This article taken in the context of Mr.Tharoor’s article and Mr.Haider’s last response to Tharoor’s article, bring to the surface Mr.Haider’s deep insecurities. Sadly for him these are not about Pakistan but about his standing in the journalistic world vis a vie his peers.

    I must admit though there is a good bit of entertainment value in this article and that is evident from the number of comments posted.

    All the best Mr.Haider. If you would like to be compared with the likes of Mr.Tharoor, you will have to raise your bar substantially.

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  • let there be peace
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:22PM

    @Naveed Akhtar:
    I notice there are more replies to this article from across the border then from Pakistanis. I suggest they read there own bias newspapers because truth hurts.

    As you have noticed we read our own biased newspapers as well as your newspapers. And still most of our opinions are same, in fact many of them reinforced. Because no matter how much circuitous logic you use in arguements, truth remains truth.

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  • My Name is Khan
    Jul 29, 2011 - 10:39PM

    My goodness Mr. Haider. As a Pakistani, I find this article quite intellectually effete and disappointing. Why must we revise history? Once I left Pakistan, and read textbooks written by Westerners, I realized how much I had been lied to as a child. You continue to perpetuate this lie.

    If we as Pakistanis fail to accept the truth, we are bound to make the same mistakes in the future.

    Recommend

  • mohanK
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:04PM

    Basically there is not much difference in the ways of the mind and temper among the people of the subcontinent, they are multifarious.The so called narrative cannot be invented out of context and proportion if it has to last. So there must be factors say,something like `least common multiple´ with which most can get identified. In private lives their needs are identical: protection of family,future of their children..etc.when it comes to the nation their ambition grows and they collectively produce a larger than life image Here the LCM becomes the decisive factor.When a country is thriving on abstractions derived from the glory of religion and belief system it needs unending supply of credibility which has to be invented at the cost of reality.
    And Mr.Haider you are unknowingly falling into the trap made by Tharoor; defending by offending, being a pakistani first, although the latter himself doesn´t deserve the status he claims.

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  • mind control
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:11PM

    @MS-Mariya
    Its soo fun to see Indians obsessed about us..I mean seriously they write long comments on our news site..come back to reply. Indians jealousy and obsession with us is soo flattering!

    Allow me to tell you a story to put the ‘obsession’ in perspective.
    Once a sant was having a bath in the Ganges when he saw a scorpion drawning in the river. Being a kind hearted sant and a believer of compassion for all living things, he scooped the poor scorpion out of the water in order to save it. The scorpion, true to its nature, stung. Through involuntary reflex action the sant dropped the scorpion in the water. The sant overcome with compassion, scooped it out again and was promptly stung again, and this cycle was repeated about half a dozen times. Finally a bystander could not contain himself and asked the sant, Why are you so obsessed with the thankless creature? The sant replied, The animal being an animal can not give up his nature and stings, being a human how can I abandon my nature and not try to save it?

    Now to put obsession in perspective,
    A, Gabdhi, Nehru and Maulana Azad advised against partition. Azad in fact predicted sectarianism and extremism. They got stung.
    B. Gandhi was working tirelessly to get funds released for Pakistan when India got stung in Kashmir.
    C. India advised Pakistan against reckless behaviour but buoyed by.American Pattons and Star Fighters Pakistan stung again.
    D.The world urged Pakistan to do the right thing and invite Mujib to form a government. The world got socked in the eye.
    E. Indian PM went to minar-e-Pakistan to profess friendship and was in turn stabbed in Kargil.
    F. Fast forward to 2011, every one advised Pakistan not be duplicitious on Al Qaeda/ Taliban but the results were predictable.
    You do your thing, allow the others to do theirs. Someday you will realise it was all for your own good.
    Cheerio.Recommend

  • Arjun
    Jul 29, 2011 - 11:21PM

    Mr.Haider, you raise what is called a strawman argument.

    India has never ever claimed it needs an army of this size “because Pakistan attacked it etc”. For the length of our borders and the size of our country, bordering countries like China and Pakistan, it is well-justified to spend 3% of our GDP (yes, just 3%) on the army. The fact of the matter is that our armed forces are largely antiquated and desperately need modernizing.

    Everything else in your article is written to support this claim above, which in itself is not a claim India has ever made.

    Recommend

  • Bangash
    Jul 30, 2011 - 12:48AM

    Pakistan’s nukes will make sure Indian trolls can only bark against Pakistan on the Internet.

    Recommend

  • Raghav
    Jul 30, 2011 - 12:50AM

    Mr. Haider only personifies the shark reality that their is a bit of Jihadiness in every Pakistani. Clearly, some of the recent commentary on Pakistan from the Indian side has gotten underneath his skin and this article is a

    Mr.Haider even suggested in an article in the Indian Express that Indian Intelligence was responsible for the Mehran base attacks!! And not a peep since then and that an Indian newspaper gave him the opportunity to write such lies is beyond me.

    When your country is floundering, the economy is in a free fall, the judiciary is at war with the executive, when their is no electricity in the major cities, when their is no hope on the horizon whatsoever, lashing out at the outside world seems to be the only option, Mr. Haider should wake up and smell the coffee. His cheerleaders on Twitter like Mosharraf Zaidi are beginning to do so.

    Recommend

  • M. I. Aslam
    Jul 30, 2011 - 1:06AM

    I loved the article after a long time some have really been able to speak truth keep it up

    @Nathu Lal: Please tell me truly …… are you an Indian if you are then God bless you for your courage

    Recommend

  • M. I. Aslam
    Jul 30, 2011 - 1:18AM

    @narayana murthy:
    dear if we accept Pakistan committed a so called genocide in 71 then what gave india authority to invade another country …………. so if u all indians consider it to be a standard repose then we reserve the right on muslim massacre in kashmir gujrat and other places

    Recommend

  • M. I. Aslam
    Jul 30, 2011 - 1:28AM

    @Kafka: You ve hit the bull …….. this is very problem with indian commentators here and in indians in general that they portray indian as a piece of heaven without any troubles and problems …………. a land where lions and goats drinks at the same bank of river. they consider them self holiest of the holy unable to commit any bad deed

    Recommend

  • Bharatvarsha
    Jul 30, 2011 - 1:44AM

    Indo-Pak relations are complex and neither side can claim the high moral ground. The author has been meticulous in stating facts but cleverly forgets to mention Gen. Zia’s policy of ” Bleeding India through a thousand cut” and not to forget Bhutto’s slogan of fighting a 1000 year war with India over Kashmir. The author has hits the bulls eye when he describes India’s narrative but what is Pakistan’s narrative? Is it merely anti-India or is it something more than that. To me Pakistan’s narrative is medieval mind set of Arab-Turko Islamic fighters who came to loot and plunder the sub-continent and Pakistan’s ruling elite is still nurturing this narrative Bhutto and Zia’s statements are evident to that. It is this narrative that has caused the Kashmir obsession and led its elite to build a national security state rather than a social security state with people at its center. The author rightly lists many of the problems being faced by India currently but the author like most Pakistanis see the India story with all its short comings as glass half empty on the other hand the people of India and the world (including china) sees the India story has half full and this is the narrative that currently separates the two states.
    Yes India does have problem but which country in the world doesn’t have? Has their existed a perfect society free of problems that India should follow as benchmark?
    Indians today are more sanguine about their future unlike Pakistanis, Indians trust their government with all its short comings unlike Pakistanis, Democracy is taking roots and strengthening the federation and giving more power to its people unlike in Pakistan. All this facts makes India better placed to address its problems unlike Pakistan which finds itself at cross roads every decade.

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  • Colorado NRI
    Jul 30, 2011 - 5:31AM

    I was walking down the road one day and saw a house on fire. Strangely enough, the owner of that house was sitting on his rocking chair outside and did not seem at all concerned. I pointed out to him that his house was ablaze and asked why he wasn’t doing something about it? He pointed to the house next door and said with a smile “You see that house. Look at how its paint is peeling and all of its windows are cracked”.

    Such is the world we live in.

    Recommend

  • mahesh
    Jul 30, 2011 - 7:32AM

    By the way folks, lets assume for arguments sake that Pakistani side is correct in saying that India has occupied Kashmir, alright. But at least in this case, Indias went to Kashmir when asked to come by the then King, what about Pakistanis, who one fine morning just landed in Baluchistan, knowing it is full of minerals and energy resources. Look who is talking?? Pakistan?? an occupying force of Baluchistan? huh . Go and see yourself in mirror before talking about India.

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  • Ram
    Jul 30, 2011 - 9:10AM

    This is same Ejaz in 2004, while the overall mood was to tone the violence, articulated that Pakistan should keep Kashmir Pot boiling with terrorists.
    Hence it is unrealistic for Tharoor to expect him as a liberal. I am not sure he has changed his stance.

    While someone is driving in a slope, you do not realize the angle of the slope, you get that while you look at the slope from a tangential distance.

    Likewise Pakistanis may not realize trajectory of their plight as they are currnetly driving in a downward slope.

    Hence my sincere advise to the so called ‘Liverals’ is Pakistan is – Keep the route to nearest Western consulate or nearest Indian border post handy.

    A day will come when this will be useful.

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  • Concerned
    Jul 30, 2011 - 9:20AM

    Ejaz Haider reserves the right to set the record straight as he does so brilliantly in this article.

    I find it hard to understand why Indians are so hesitant to accept that they too have been fed half-truths like people in every other country. Yet Indians, particularly those commenting here, continue to insist that their half-truths are truths beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    I find this childish behaviour rather disturbing, especially when many Pakistani’s have matured enough to understand that not all is as they have been told.

    Recommend

  • yes-man
    Jul 30, 2011 - 9:29AM

    @mahesh:

    The Nawab of Kalat signed the instrument of accession to Pakistan in march 1948, thats how Pakistan landed in Kalat.

    However Kalat only formed 30% of the territory of what today is the province of Balochistan. The rest of the areas like the Quetta municipality voted to join Pakistan.

    Recommend

  • anonymous
    Jul 30, 2011 - 10:06AM

    Who gives a damn about what Indians think. Indians should be more concerned about their own problems instead of trying to annex other territories.

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  • anonymous
    Jul 30, 2011 - 10:07AM

    Very well-written article. A sane response to Indian ramblings in the media.

    Recommend

  • Moi
    Jul 30, 2011 - 10:07AM

    @narayana murthy:

    Slow down buddy, don’t let your low IQ get the best of you.

    LOL. This is absolutely hilarious, hahaha! You are actually thinking that Pakistan should have attacked Afghanistan

    I wonder if you’ve ever heard of the word sarcasm? Read my comment again. This time carefully.

    Okay, then arming the refugees in our own land is also not an act of war, by all international standards. Afterall, no Indian attacked pakistan army in Bangladesh. It was Mukthi Bahini. Completely Bangladeshi.

    First of all, no indian attacked Pakistan army? I wonder then what the whole Indian army was doing in East Pakistan? Out on a fishing trip?

    Secondly, training and arming militants, and sending them over the border into a neighbouring country is ‘cross-border terrrorism’. Don’t you think?

    Get out of your denial. India regularly indulges in much of the policies it accuses Pakistan of carrying out. Yet only Pakistan gets blamed. Wondering why? Read Ejaz Haiders articulate article again.

    Recommend

  • mind control
    Jul 30, 2011 - 11:25AM

    @Bangash

    Pakistan’s nukes will make sure Indian trolls can only bark against Pakistan on the Internet.

    Pakistani nukes coupled with the strategic assets of LeT,TTP et al will make sure Pakistan goes back to the stone age. GHQ and Mahran incidents are only the starters.Watch this space.

    Recommend

  • My Name is Khan
    Jul 30, 2011 - 11:36AM

    As a Pakistani, I have to say I’m embarrassing by the chest thumping of my countrymen. Indians are engaged on this site because ET is one of the few places that accepts comments and promotes discussion and debate.

    Sadly, many of my countrymen have been fed half truths.

    Let’s get it straight – India has plenty of problems. What happened in Gujurat is unacceptable and India has a lot of issues on its plate. However, I find that most Indians in the US by and large want to engage positively with Pakistan yet find many of us to be completely one dimensional.

    Countrymen – Indians are no smarter than us or better than us but they haven’t been raised on a steady diet of lies. They are not blind in following their military. Read their newspapers online and you will see that they are exposing corruption on a daily basis.

    We as a people are destined to get the government we deserve. If we do not question the Armed Forces and ISI for their follies, we are destined to be a failed state driven by our maniacal obsession with India which is too busy making economic progress. Why can’t we take our heads out of the sand? Let’s be honest with ourselves. Our military has never won a war. Our military is not brave and gallant. We are taught these lies yet we never question why our military can’t establish a writ within the borders of Pakistan?

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  • Frank
    Jul 30, 2011 - 12:05PM

    noor

    Citing a favorable insurrection by a
    small ethnic group in a territory is
    scarcely a good excuse for an armed
    incursion.

    Punjabi Muslims inhabit the districts of Muzzafrabad, Poonch and Mirpur in AJK and the districts of Poonch and Rajouri in Indian occupied J & K. These are four huge districts. These Punjabi Musilms are the second largest ethnicity in J & K after the Kashmiris. They overthrew the Dogra ‘king’ within a week of the departure his British patrons and sponsors. Moreover, these people also played a big part in organizing the rebellion in Gilgit-Balistan. So this was not some small insurrection. Northern Poonch and the whole Rajouri are still under Indian occupation. These two districts belong to West Punjab and therefore Pakistan has a stake in Indian occupied J & K even if the Kashmiris want independence rather than accession to Pakistan.

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  • anonymous
    Jul 30, 2011 - 1:22PM

    Anyone who believes that India won four wars lives in fool’s paradise. In the first war, Pakistan got almost a half of Kashmir. In the second war, nothing happened actually. Third war resulted in the loss of East Pakistan but that was due to internal differences between east and west Pakistan. The fourth war, was fought in India. India started crying and complained to its brother the US who forced Pakistan to retreat.

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  • Anjum
    Jul 30, 2011 - 1:24PM

    @Moi:
    Exactly. But they are living in a world of bollywood, soon Mollywood, and upper caste hindus projection of them self. This Kashmir we need to solve ourself, it will take decades and decades before majority hindustanis get knowledgeable enough, so we can talk sense for a solution. Pak zindabad

    Recommend

  • Abhi
    Jul 30, 2011 - 2:07PM

    @Frank

    Your comment means that so called azad kashmir is actually part of Punjab. Then why are you calling it as kashmir? To get international support?
    Recommend

  • Khan
    Jul 30, 2011 - 4:30PM

    @My Name Is Khan:

    I whole-heartedly agree with you that we should start being honest with ourselves. But not with the notion that we throw our military out of the window.

    Bringing our military under effective civilian control and defenestrating it are two completely different issues. The latter is unimaginable. India should stop dreaming about it.

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  • R S JOHAR
    Jul 30, 2011 - 6:04PM

    @My Name is Khan:
    I always appreciate your comments on ET. I agree with you that what happened in Gujarat in 2002 was a big blow to India’s secular image which we Indians value and are also proud of. However, not trying to justify, it was predominently a very violent reaction after 50 Hindu pilgrims were burnt alive in a railway bogey allegedly by some Muslim miscreants. Though most Pakistanis never miss the opportunity to remind the Indians of this unfortunate episode but tend to ignore the fact that no such incident has happened in India after 2002 till date since lessons were learnt by this political party and others too as it was thrown out of power by the secular minded Indian people.

    I also agree with you that Pakistanis are no less than their Indian counter-parts but some drastic changes are required to be made in the Pak education system curriculam in school and colleges which mostly includes distorted history.Recommend

  • Jul 30, 2011 - 8:19PM

    @Paras Vikmani: why are so interested in reading our papers. You just be interested in reading yours and commenting there. Savvy???Recommend

  • Rab Nawaz Chattha
    Jul 30, 2011 - 8:34PM

    @rgg:
    Hahaha ..Ejaz is Not torementing with anger , You are. Because If It did not matter to you what he wrote You won’t be here. It shows You really got disturbed by Ejaz’s turth-telling. I think his Truth has taken toll on you all Indians. Finally, let me show you all who is obsessed with who? Whose News paper is this ? And all those come running to write here are all Obsessed. Period. No IFs or Buts, No other arguuments. Chapter Closed!!

    @Arun:
    Narrative is Close enough to the truth. I haven’t heard anything More insane than this.
    @Rock:
    Largest Democratic State? Hahahaha ..Yeh Goli Kisi aur Ko dena.

    @Paras Vikmani:
    Don’t take the article On your Little heart,,

    @Abhi:
    How about Red Corridor? Who You going to blame that for? Naw.. It doesn’t work both ways. Do me a favr, Sart speaking truth.Recommend

  • Observer
    Jul 30, 2011 - 11:57PM

    @M. I. Aslam:
    India’s involvement in supporting Bangladesh was simpy a payback for Paksitan’s mischief in 1965. If Pakistan had not invaded India in 1965, India would not have had any reasons to help BD freedom fighters. In case you don’t know, for every action there will be a reaction.

    Recommend

  • G. Khan
    Jul 31, 2011 - 8:18AM

    @Tony Singh: Mr. Ejaz your article is precisely – A “Pavlovian” response. (remember?)

    Tony, I am so Glad that you are here again and are referring to Pavlovian response. It was my Statistics after which that article came out. I don’t know what to say to you because its so hilarious that you refer to Ejaz Haider as The object while you yourself are that Object.along with all your countrymen . They are presenting a perfect example of Pavlovian conditioning or conditioned Reflex. Whereas Mr. Haider’s Article is serving as that typical bell as stimulus. The question is ” Who wrote this article”? And Who came here running to respond ? LOL..
    Just Count how many your countrymen came running to the stimulus, regardless of if they read the full article or not : A typical characteristic of the Pavlovian Dog who merely reacts to a situation rather than using critical thinking. I think EXPERIMENT IS A HIT HERE ONCE MORE. CONGRATLATIONS!!!!!!!!!!

    Recommend

  • JAck
    Jul 31, 2011 - 9:13AM

    @R S JOHAR:

    What about Orissa in 2008?

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  • Ashok
    Jul 31, 2011 - 9:36AM

    I think Shashi Tharoor’s observation that Pakistani liberals are Pakistani before they are liberals is a correct assessment. True, there may be genuine liberals in Pakistan. They do not hold any sway over the decision making of the country, which is primarily controlled by the Army and it’s intelligence agencies.

    Generally, whenever an organ of the state of Pakistan decides to attack India, they do so firmly and professionally, with intent to cause as much as damage as possible and prevent payback as much as possible. Part of this process entails using the liberal peace brigade from Pakistan, who would have established firm ties with their numerically superior counterparts across the border. This process is approved by the Government of Pakistan since it allows Pakistan to continually hurt India while not getting hit back. India’s policy therefore, is to constantly get “sucker punched” by Pakistan. Pakistan has a firm anti India policy in place. India lacks a policy towards responding to Pakistan’s use of asymmetric warfare. Therefore, it can be adequately assessed that Pakistan’s policy is to do the punching, and India’s policy is to constantly get punched – that is, the liberals of Pakistan talk of peace right after a major attack and prevent India’s policy makers from taking any action negative to Pakistan by using the leverage afforded to them by Indian peace activists. This is where the “liberal peace loving” elite of Pakistan nicely fit into Pakistan’s grand strategy of changing the status of J&K to its own favor.

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  • bobji
    Jul 31, 2011 - 11:33AM

    We are sick and tired of these Indian right-wingers playing havoc on the net. But then they get easily hurt.

    Ejaz rocksRecommend

  • YAMAM
    Jul 31, 2011 - 11:53AM

    We Have more Indians here than Pakis ;) WOW Pakistan, a big concerned in our neighnourhood :D

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  • YAMAM
    Jul 31, 2011 - 12:00PM

    @My Name is Khan:
    My Dear Countrymen, If Pakistan never Won or Succeed in the War, then why not these peoples occupy us like some part of kashmir? Think my friend before mouth firing…Pak Army is not a joke to fun around and this not need to prove, all these Indians knows it very well…

    Our Politicians are dumpheads, those are pulling us to stoneage….we need to reveal them, and through out all the garbage…

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  • mind control
    Jul 31, 2011 - 12:37PM

    @JAck

    What about Orissa in 2008?

    The same as Ahmadias and the Baloch since forever.

    P.S. Mr Ejaz was discussing Indo-Pakistan relations which is distinct from Hindu/Muslim/Christian/Sikh/Ahmadi relations. I hope the distinction is not completely lost on you.

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  • Jul 31, 2011 - 6:43PM

    Media on both sides have their arguments which do-not help matters, but confuse the people. Much can be said on this article. Considering India is the villain and Pakistan the poor innocent sufferer. None will shift their stand on Kashmir . Assuming Pakistan has more destructive toys and is more powerful than India and capable of destroying whole of India. Will Pakistan be 100% safe ? High time writers take a constructive approach and suggest solutions, rather than racking up old happenings of zero value.

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  • shouvikmukho
    Jul 31, 2011 - 8:56PM

    To all Pakistanis who wonder why Indians are so obsessed with Pakistan:
    Our generation was probably too young or unborn to rejoice the 1971 victory.
    We are now savouring our victory by watching Pakistan self destruct..

    Recommend

  • Abhi
    Jul 31, 2011 - 10:25PM

    @Concerned

    “I find it hard to understand why Indians are so hesitant to accept that they too have been fed half-truths like people in every other country. Yet Indians, particularly those commenting here, continue to insist that their half-truths are truths beyond a shadow of a doubt.”

    So you think that people in every country have been fed half truths?

    Recommend

  • Jeet Kumar
    Aug 1, 2011 - 12:57AM

    Surprise….Surprise…Surprise…when will Pakistan’s obsession with India end.

    Guys – get a grip and sort your addiction out. Time to look inwards at your state of affairs. Aren’t you tired of pointing fingers. Get over India and do something for the poor divided Pakistanis on the street. It is so easy to always use India when things are tough internally. Let us alone….please!!

    Recommend

  • Lateef Ahmad
    Aug 2, 2011 - 6:55PM

    It’s quite another fact that every time Pakistan has tried to engage India on force rationalisation — nuclear and conventional — including as part of the 2004 dialogue framework, India shifts the goalpost by referring to China.

    This is what India has been doing for past so six decades. They are making big claims of democracy and doesn’t know Kashmiri people were sold to India like a toaster, which is never accepted in any modern democracy. Till India occupation continues in Kashmir, South Asia will remain disturbed. Hats off to You AIjaz for this brilliant peaces. Don’t worry abt the criticism, India is the nation of journalists like Arnab Goswami, Ravi Shankar, who are selling lies. Even you can’t believe ask any common Indian about Kashmir. He will say does Kashmir have roads, how you move out when militants are always hurling grenades on you, which is never a case

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  • ved prakash chopra
    Aug 2, 2011 - 10:24PM

    religions can never be the basis of carving out a nation.there are more than 22 muslim countries who do not see eye to eye with each other.india ia secular country with 20 crore muslims living peacefully.it is pakistan which has waged four wars on india and proxy war of terror for the last 22 years.hatered brings destruction and peace brings progress and prosperity for all.pakistan must shun the expanist policy and work for integrity and progress of pakistan.peace has no alternative other than peacfull co-existance.life is only once there is no second chance.nature is supreem.immaginary god in heaven has proved to be a curse on humanity.in the name of god several crimes,wars,convertions anihilation of oposit faiths and exploitation of innocent, ignorent,poor and illetrate people have been going on since centuries.immaginary god in heavon and seral mythological gods have been commercialised by so called god men of all religions in the world. why we can not be simple straitforward and true to ourselves and shun all kinds of rituals, superstition,fanatism and blind faith. service of humanity is a universal relegion. preserve nature nature is supreem.
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  • Guess
    Aug 3, 2011 - 12:51AM

    Knowledge cannot not uplift everyone… especially those who don’t want to …. lol

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  • Mahesh
    Aug 4, 2011 - 5:59AM

    @Salman Arshad,
    Salute to you bro, well written. I am glad there are sane people like you, who give hope to a new and peaceful Pakistan, which will also be prosperous. Good luck bro.

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  • Raj Malhotra
    Aug 12, 2011 - 2:07AM

    Is Pakistan sleep walking to self destruction?

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