Kashmiris watch talks but ready to fight

Published: April 13, 2011
JD activists shout with enthusiasm, answering the call of their leader who asked them whether they were ready to sacrifice their lives to save Kahsmir. PHOTOS: ABID NAWAZ/EXPRESS

JD activists shout with enthusiasm, answering the call of their leader who asked them whether they were ready to sacrifice their lives to save Kahsmir. PHOTOS: ABID NAWAZ/EXPRESS

MUZAFFARABAD: Kashmiris on the Pakistan side of divided Kashmir said on Wednesday that they will give new talks with India a chance but they have little faith that they will succeed and believe it is only a matter of time before they will have to fight again.

For now, many of them are engaged in peaceful pursuits such as small businesses, teaching or social welfare, and they face severe Pakistani restrictions on crossing the so-called Line of Control (LoC) separating Pakistani and Indian Kashmir.

“We have not given up arms, jihad, but are just giving another chance to talks,” said Abdul Aziz Alvi, chief of Jamaat-ud-Dawa (JuD) in Pakistani Kashmir.

The JuD is an Islamist charity which the United Nations says is a front for the Lashkar-e-Taiba, one the main militant groups fighting Indian rule in Kashmir and blamed for a 2008 attack on the Indian city of Mumbai that killed 166 people.

“If India does not understand the language of negotiation, then guns will start speaking,” Alvi added as he was attending a protest rally against Indian plans to build dams in its part of Kashmir.

India and Pakistan last month agreed to restart comprehensive talks which were called off by India after the attacks on Mumbai by militants based in Pakistan.

India has long accused Pakistan of fomenting an insurgency in which nearly 50,000 people have been killed since it broke out in 1989. Pakistan denies the charge.

The bitterness generated by the dispute has an impact far beyond Kashmir’s snow-capped mountains and lush valleys, including in Afghanistan, where many analysts say India and Pakistan are waging a proxy war.

Since 2002, the Kashmir movement over the LoC has fallen significantly, partly because India has fenced the previously porous frontier but also because Pakistan has imposed tough restrictions on the movement of the fighters.

Controlling the Line of Control

“There’s been a huge impact. Previously, about 50 mujahideen used to cross to occupied Kashmir a month, now hardly five are able to do so,” said Abu Huzaifa Kashmiri, a member of the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen militant group, who now runs a hotel in Muzaffarabad, capital of Pakistani Kashmir.

“There are chances that some rogue elements come out and conduct operations like Mumbai, but the militant leadership does not seem ready for any confrontation with the Pakistani establishment,” said defence analyst Hasan Askari Rizvi.

“It has to be seen how the militant leadership and establishment control these rogue elements,” he added.

A senior militant commander, who declined to be identified, said the failure of India and Pakistan to settle the dispute would ultimately benefit the militants.

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Reader Comments (68)

  • neel123
    Apr 13, 2011 - 7:12PM

    India has learned to live with Pakistan and the Pakistan supported terrorist groups. It will do what ever it takes to deal with both Pakistan and its surrogates.

    There will be no concessions from India on the fundamental issue of integrity of the nation…… !!Recommend

  • LOL
    Apr 13, 2011 - 8:11PM

    Make the LOC the international border. Done. Find something new to unify Pakistanis. Recommend

  • let there be peace
    Apr 13, 2011 - 8:45PM

    please do use the term “kashmiri” for all living in kashmir. “kashmiri” means people from kashmir region of indian civilization. if someone thinks they are not indian please use terms like “arabs” “central asians” (or whatever they think they are. may be martians)Recommend

  • let there be peace
    Apr 13, 2011 - 8:46PM

    if someone is “not indian” then he/or she is accepting that he/she is not kashmiri alsoRecommend

  • John
    Apr 13, 2011 - 8:58PM

    With the electricity from the new dam, India is planning to electrify the fence across the LoC.-

    Just a thought. Solves the headache for both PAK and IND.Recommend

  • Hedgefunder
    Apr 13, 2011 - 9:27PM

    ” Every picture tells the story ” !! Don’t hold your breath!! Talk is cheap, start asking them to lay their lives for a cause which really most of them are not even related too!!!!
    Looking at the picture like this one and many others regarding demos in pakistan, it seems that this must be classed as full time employment for these idiots !!! As they seem to have nothing bettter to do !!!Recommend

  • raja
    Apr 13, 2011 - 9:34PM

    referendum on both side under UN mandate India pakistan or independence simple solution Recommend

  • Ali
    Apr 13, 2011 - 9:43PM

    indians dont be so confident ,think again this is Pakistan ull deal with Recommend

  • Herrah
    Apr 13, 2011 - 10:36PM

    Balochistan Zindabad.Recommend

  • Ashutosh
    Apr 13, 2011 - 10:37PM

    We had seen those booms, guns and Jihadis for several decades now. Who cares ?

    Feel free to use them whenever you want.

    The infiltration is down to 5 a month (by the militants own admission), we will bring it down to zero.

    In future, we will just trap the jihadis/ militants and had put them on display on every square in India and after their natural death in captivity, they will be priced possessions of our Museums …. so that the generations to come can see they type of animals the Pakistanis bread …Recommend

  • maryam
    Apr 13, 2011 - 11:24PM

    @neel123: its easy for us as pakistani or indians to say that kashmir is ours or whatever. but kashmiris dont want to be part of either country and its their right to be free.Recommend

  • Raja
    Apr 13, 2011 - 11:50PM

    The title is :

    “Kashmiris” watch talks but ready to fight

    The article talks about JuD/LeT

    JuD/LeT terrorists cadre is entirely made up of Punjabis.

    May be Americans will still be fooled by such shenanigans.
    Not Indians.Recommend

  • Faisal
    Apr 14, 2011 - 2:59AM

    Please look within yourself and see what India has been doing: Kashmir, Gujrat, Assam, Nagaland, Golden temple etc, etc,. It has so much blood on its hands for just killing its own citizens. It has over 60 separatist groups operating within its own borders, if the citizens of India really love their nation why so much uprising from within??
    You threaten that India will do whatever it takes, believe me your bark is bigger than your bite! We are all prepared, because the typical Hindu is afraid to fight and die as human existence is his best stage of reincarnation.
    Why don’t you go and watch a bollywood movie!Recommend

  • True Indian
    Apr 14, 2011 - 9:15AM

    What ever u want to do , you can not take Kashmir, its permanent part of India.Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 14, 2011 - 10:13AM

    Lol and Neel,
    But what about promises India n Nehru made to Kashmiris about self determination? Recommend

  • Ashamed to be Indian
    Apr 14, 2011 - 10:51AM

    What a joke why cannot we Indians be truly democratic Let us learn yes learn from Britain how they have given the right to determine to Scotland.

    After 3 summers in a row it is clear Kashmiris wants tto be independent so let them be. Let them decide their future and let us finish the colonial rule like we once we under from british. Let us not become the oppressors for kashmiris now.Recommend

  • iqbal rana
    Apr 14, 2011 - 11:30AM

    Well…there is no solution except the jihad . Being a kashmiri i think this is ultimate solution coz India cannot be trusted neither should be trusted . The people who are trying to dig out solution on table are knowing well that they are just buying the time to avoid the real fight..Recommend

  • Manoj
    Apr 14, 2011 - 12:47PM


    You must have heard about Shimla agreement, of 1972, I believe.
    This agreement proclaims and your great PM ZAB agreed that Kashmir is bilateral problem to be resolved thru mutual discussion.

    Atal – Nawaz resolution says same thing and also Musharaf – Atal resolution.

    Mr. Cofee Anana while visting Pakistan as general secretary of UN said on the Pak soil that UN resolution on Kashmir was advisory in nature and now it is dead resolution.

    I hope things are clear to you.

    The leadership and inteligentia of Pakistan has a responsibilty to prepare the common citizen of Pakistan for a peaceful resolution of Kashmir on status quo basis.
    Other options of resolution will lead to nowhere except huge destruction two both countries to the extent of endangaring the very survival of the humankind in this two country.

    People of Pakistan needs to decide, whether Kashmir is so important for which survival of pakistan is endangered.Recommend

  • Ron(Indian)
    Apr 14, 2011 - 12:58PM

    @Ashamed to be Indian:
    1]get converted to one religion
    2]follow the arab principles by eleminating other religions.
    3] ask for seperate land through violence
    4] when you get seperate land then do the same in neighbouring region
    Indians are very well aware of seperatist strategy. you can not save your country why are you asking for kashmir. Most of your sane minds have left your country. Thanks.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Apr 14, 2011 - 12:59PM

    Until India mends its ways, the threat of war over sub continent will remain.
    The only way is to move forward in negotiation to resolve ALL issues, not negotiating for the sake of negotiating…
    India is not serious in resolving the disputes as Pakistan (threat perception) is the only thing that keeps India united… and resolving all the issues will mean the end of India as we know it!

    Typical baniya: Baghal mein churri, mooh mein raam raamRecommend

  • Abdulla
    Apr 14, 2011 - 1:09PM

    If you are ashamed then jump into arabian sea, your shame will be washedout.

    As for promise made by Nehru, sorry Nehru was not the Home minister that time, since he was a Kashmiri he had taken thing on kashmir for granted., of Patel would have been in kashmir issue then Kashmir would have been in the line of Junaghad, Hydrabad

    Jai HindRecommend

  • Ron(Indian)
    Apr 14, 2011 - 1:13PM

    just refer the baloch topics on this forum noone is commenting. So it seems India is uniting pakistan otherwise you would have got segragated. Your country is form on the basis of seperatist agenda. What are you talking about is wellknown to the world. Don’t create chaos in the subcontinent. 1st secure your country. ThanksRecommend

  • Ron(Indian)
    Apr 14, 2011 - 1:16PM

    @Editor: why do you promote the banned outfit(JUD) ?
    Is it constitutional ? Recommend

  • James
    Apr 14, 2011 - 1:28PM

    You know,you already lost one wicket and on the verge of loosing another wicket.Play safe buddy.I think you also know it is not in your capacity to do any significant damage to India.India have enough power to take care of herself and inflict severe damage to enemy who try to undermine her sovereignty. Recommend

  • Arijit Sharma
    Apr 14, 2011 - 7:30PM

    @Hmm?: ” But what about promises India n Nehru made to Kashmiris about self determination? “

    Ok, we broke our promise, what are you going to do about it ?

    @Faisal: ” Please look within yourself and see what India has been doing: Kashmir, Gujrat, Assam, Nagaland, Golden temple etc, etc, “

    Faisal mian, why do you keep dragging Assam into your examples ? There is 70+% turnout in voting in Assam – what does that tell you ? And remember – Gujarat, in a way shows what Hindus are capable of, if provoked beyond a point.Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Apr 14, 2011 - 7:47PM

    Its time Pakistan mended its way. No point pointing fingures to India. Pakistan is the problem, not India. So just keep your council to yourself. We have protected ourselves in the past and will continue to do so.Recommend

  • Kanishka
    Apr 14, 2011 - 8:27PM

    My entire paternal family is serving in the army in Kashmir on top jobs, they say that India will keep the Kashir Issue alive forever.

    1. It drives Pakistan bankrupt
    2. It is creating more fundamentalism and terrorism in pakistan
    3. The Pakistani youth is being wasted in fundamentalism, therefore a long term gaurantee to destabilize and stop the human development and therefore the economic development of Pakistan…
    4. Engafing Pakistan keeps the Kashmiri people agitated that they are not being consulted, whic makes them more anti-pakistan :)..Recommend

  • Apr 14, 2011 - 8:57PM

    Mr.Faisal boy,

    yes, India has sixty separatist groups fighting for freedom. When it is tackling sixty groups, it can easily add one more from Kashmir (Pakistan) and punish it. Pakistanis and its agents cannot do anything.. Remember that once India loose control of Kashmir, then Baluchistan will get freedom from Pakistan.Recommend

  • Ashutosh
    Apr 14, 2011 - 9:02PM

    This was “Top Secret !” STUPID !!!!!Recommend

  • maynotmatter
    Apr 14, 2011 - 9:30PM

    Somehow my comments to all who were asking about Nehru’s promise seems to have been respectfully removed by editorial (maybe). A promise was broken by Jinnah when he ordered General Gracy to attack Kashmir and annex it under Pakistan, which was against an agreement was made during partition that neither India or Pakistan will forcefully annex Kashmir. Nehru (Kashmiri pundit himself) by his nobleness promised self determination of entire Kashmir ( both POK and IOK) which back in 1947 had considerable Hindu Kashmiri Pundit majority and they along with many muslims would have opted for separate nation rather than joining India or Pakistan. Jinnah or Pakistani mindset who started the adventurism could not risk loosing whatever Kashmir they got (now Pakistan occupied Kashmir) so they did not accept the offer and were hell bent about holding plebiscite only under Indian controlled kashmir. Which is ofcourse unfair and not acceptable. Hence started the great stalemate. So the whole idea desolved back then, agreement was broken. You guys are just happly singing the old tune and have seriously no idea of history. Ah, thanks to Zia who screwed your history text books, you guys are doomed to be deprived of any real knowledge. Dont blame it on Nehru, look at your own closet. Irrespective who wins or loose this argument, a peacefully co existing India and Pakistan will automatically bring peace to Kashmir. It is disgusting that people will support militants for their cause. If you think getting Kashmir from India is going to solve your problem then you and your like are so naive. Your military and terrorist establishment are not going to rest after that. They will never rest until everything is destroyed. This is war of ideology and Kashmir is just used as an excuse.Recommend

  • Ravi
    Apr 14, 2011 - 10:15PM

    good plans………Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 15, 2011 - 6:20AM

    things are not clear sir, 1) because it’s a trilateral issue, more than 10 million Kashmiris are not cattle that Pakistan and India will buy or sell. 2) bilateral doesn’t mean no right of self determination(even Indian puppet umar Abdullah does accept Kashmir as integral part of India) and suppression with 700000 troops. 3) nobody can keep humans suppressed forever, yogoslavia had to let go bosnians and Croats, Russia had to let go to all central Asians and east Europeans, Sudan is letting go to south sudanies, in 21st century no human being is going to remain slave of another human being.Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 15, 2011 - 6:45AM

    If kashmir is a resolved or dead issue, I don’t know why there are more Indians on this forum than pakistanies, And I don’t know why Indians are so obsesed with Pakistan and suppressing Kashmiris and don’t pay any attention to following issues..

    Girl children being killed or aborted, a genocide of unborn girls is being committed in India

    Extreme poverty worst than 26 poorest african nations


    A rebellion by the poorest of poor, maoists,


    It would be better if we can focus and solve real issues (including Kashmir, poverty, human rights, food, drinking water), instead of a false sense of superiority against each other….Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 15, 2011 - 6:52AM

    @Arijit Sharma:
    You broke your promise, that’s good for me, because nations are built on morals and principles not on misiles and bombs or even call centers. I wonder if you know this dude called Gandhi? And if you know anything about his teachings or his murderer is your hero?Recommend

  • Pakistani57
    Apr 15, 2011 - 6:52AM

    Pakistan wont back down from its intrusion in IOK until India learns to behave in terms of its water war fare, India wants peace in the region the solution is simple stop making dams on our waterways until then keep sending your troops to border and veterans to psychiatric wardsRecommend

  • Sudhir
    Apr 15, 2011 - 9:48AM

    @Ashamed to be Indian:

    U may be muslim before Indian that why u are ashamed.But yes kishmiris can be given right to self determination but pakistan must start the show first by giving right to self determination to blochistan,kashmir,sindh,FATA ,Talibans and so on who r their muslim brothers.Pakistanis must show sympathies and support to their muslim brothers in pakistan before looking outside if they r really champions of right to self determinationRecommend

  • M.Asad
    Apr 15, 2011 - 9:53AM

    Just capture the so called POK and Gilgit-Baltistan and kick these terrorists out of those places.Enough is enough.Congress gov is corrupt and inept.Give Modi led BJP gov a chance for growth and to teach a lesson to these invaders.Recommend

  • vasan
    Apr 15, 2011 - 10:35AM

    Objective 1 already achieved. 3 to goRecommend

  • vasan
    Apr 15, 2011 - 10:36AM

    Good progress in objectives 2 and 3. Notable gains already noticed, Work on objective 4 has started to show results.Recommend

  • John
    Apr 15, 2011 - 11:45AM

    The best comment so far. Sorry my PAK friends, you also got to see this brilliance.Recommend

  • ashok sai
    Apr 15, 2011 - 1:50PM


    You are so honest, lol.

    Pakistanis still you want Kashmir, continue bragging :DRecommend

  • Ron(Indian)
    Apr 15, 2011 - 1:57PM

    The land of separatist should not teach the world about values. Now I feel it’s really true when my muslim friend says “If a pakistani is not terrorist then he has to be a separatist. there is no third option” This is so correct in your case. Today i am agree with him. Thanks. Recommend

  • Anoop
    Apr 15, 2011 - 9:37PM

    Your obsession with Kashmir has not only made you a failed state but you have lost half of your country in 1971. On the other hand, there has hardly been an impact on India.

    India’s growth digits are nearing double digits, while Pakistan is struggling to grow at even 1/3rd the rate India is growing. Millions are coming out of poverty every year in India, while millions are entering poverty in Pakistan. While we spend only 2.5% of out GDP on Defence, your budget is eaten by Defence expenditures.

    In 60 years, India hasn’t budged an inch or tried to takeover any land(like in Bangladesh we could have done). But, Pakistan has done so many times and failed, as recently as in 1999.

    So, we can afford to keep Kashmir, but can you afford to even think about Kashmir?

    In 60 years, Pakistanis haven’t learned a single thing.Recommend

  • Jamshaid Faryal
    Apr 16, 2011 - 12:13AM

    Muslims all over the world support that cause. its not nay more limited to Pakistan. Kashmir and Palestine both, until liberated, no Muslim will sit in peace. Go give these Hindu terrorist threats to someone else. It’s not 1971 that India demonstrated its terrorist nature as a State. otherwise there was no justification of entry in Bangladesh.. We would have given them independence anyway was up to us. But your Intervention Opened the doors to Terrorism .Therefore whenever something happens On your territory Its the Problem Of Pakistan a, China and all Muslim world to intervene. Therefore Kashmir is the same problem. Forget that Muslims are going to forget that. And Try now what you tried in 1971, I can guarantee you that you would be thrown to the Stone Age by us. If we had that Bomb then, 1971 intervention could have been Avoided. But try this intervention now and see How Radha Dances n Delhi On Nuclear Music. We will teacdh the children what is right Not because what Your Hindu mind thinks that we should. UN resolution does something or not, our generation will go afer it. When I said Our generation that means not Only Pakistan But the whle Islamic world.Recommend

  • pl/sql
    Apr 16, 2011 - 5:55AM

    Will you marry me?Recommend

  • Ron(indian)
    Apr 16, 2011 - 8:42AM

    @Jamshaid Faryal:
    Do you know your history? Your forefathers were hindus and buddhist.. Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 16, 2011 - 8:44AM

    Brother, congrats on double degit growth, please share that with ur farmers, Hundreds of thousands of em are committing suicides due to poverty,

    Bangladesh might be a separate country but we are brothers and sisters, 71 was a bad episode in our relationship but to test our ever lasting relationship, let’s have india and Pakistan play a cricket match in Dhaka…. And we will see… :)

    To see Indian popularity in Kashmir let’s play a cricket match in Sri nagar.. :)

    And to see Indian popularity in south Asia, let’s play a match in Colombo, this is a very inexpensive way of proving how incredible india is eyes of all these people… :)

    Regarding Pakistan as a failed state, yeah it might be a failed state if one goes by Indian corporate media, but I want to invite you to come and visit pakistan and see for yourself, beneath all negative media, it’s a country that is brimming with energy, visit Lahore and right at the airport you will find that how far ahead Pakistan is in infrastructure as compared to india, visit Lums, Fast, Punjab, GCU, NCA and you will find out what a vibrant educational scene we have… Watch any channel and see how self critical we are…. We talk about our issues and how to solve them…. Listen to our music and you can tell we create original music, unlike indias copy paste filmi music….. Meet people and you will see we love ourself and we don’t need virtual whitening creams to whiten our pictures before putting them on our Facebook profiles… Unlike Indian political scene which is stagnant, dominated by corporate funded bjp and congress, we have new political parties with fresh ideas gaining popularity, we do have poverty, but unlike culcutta and mumbai, we don’t have hundreds of thousands sleeping on roads and foot paths, and unlike indias 410 million people living under poverty line, our number is arround 50-60 million, still a big problem, but much easier to solve… So trust me, we were a failed state when we were born, with no infrstructure, no money, no institutions, no industry, and 10 million refugees, we made it thru that and we will make it thru this tough time as well as we are way way better than where we started….. So stop worrying about us and try to look after your own problems… :)Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 16, 2011 - 8:57AM

    Brother, I don’t know what kind of history they are teaching you, but Pakistan came in to being through exercise of right of self determination in which people of east Bengal, west Punjab, khyber pakhtunkha, sindh and balochistan decided to be part of Pakistan thru democratic processes, either 1946 elections, refrendom or jirga. So that question is resolved. Kashmir is an accepted issue by India and Pakistan, UNO and international community, people of Kashmir were never given the right promised to them. I have no doubt that they will get their right soon, Arab spring is going to reach Kashmir soon. I don’t care if they decide to live with India, Pakistan or independent. But i hope and pray that they soon get their rights, dignity and freedom back.Recommend

  • Desai
    Apr 16, 2011 - 9:17AM

    I think India should feel confident enough to go for a refredom I am sure Kashmiris would like to join India. That way we will get pok as well.
    India is a booming economy, double digit growth.
    India is a democracy, equal rights for everyone.
    India is next super power.

    So I don’t see why Kashmiris will join a failed state.
    But if they do, we should let them go, as there is no point in keeping anybody is forced marriage.


  • Ashutosh
    Apr 16, 2011 - 9:52AM

    @Jamshaid Faryal:
    These treads are hollow and are stale now.

    We perpetually review our security systems and keep pluging the holes.

    The world have to live with the jihadis until they become civilised.Recommend

  • Bambayyaa
    Apr 16, 2011 - 10:51AM

    Kashmiris / JUD / LET … all muslims … are being used as cannon fodders by Pakistani state ie ISI / Pak Army under the name of religion / nationalism … Pakistan on the other hand is getting concessions and money by blackmailing the world… which in turn goes directly into the pockets of the Army / Politicians.. It also shows how the Pakistani Army / Govt. is hand in gloves with the terrorist organisations.. and use them where and when required … BUT … now the world knows what pakistanis are upto.. so the frustration is building up .. and the trigger happy organisations like JUD/ LET etc etc .. are getting restless.. if they did not find a so called Hindu… they will bomb all the Shias.. so the cycle of voilence has an additional dimension already …. NOW its for the normal muslims as such … who are beliveing in peaceful exsistance and belive in Live and let Live principle … need to decide and raise there voice .. and make people aware of the game .. otherwise … Cannon fodder tap will continue unrestricted … and the Indian soilders will keep on getting target practicing ..and our soilders will have a good anti terrotist school on LOC.. with live targets.Recommend

  • maynotmatter
    Apr 16, 2011 - 10:56AM

    Sorry dude, nobody except few Pakistans is supporting the Kashmir cause. :) Even muslims in India does not support Kashmir cause. So continue living in false hope. :PRecommend

  • Jahangiri
    Apr 16, 2011 - 11:15AM

    Can you disable comments section or at least this silly recommended button? It is a report, copy pasted from Reuters but all the chest thumping Indians are in full force as usual. Their fixation with this country knows no bound. But should the Tribune so willing become the conduit for their hate against Pakistan? I think not. Not unless it has already decided to change its name to Bharat Tribune or something like that. Recommend

  • Ahmer Ali
    Apr 16, 2011 - 11:40AM

    Assalam-o-Allaikum Warahmatullah.On one hand Pakistani and Indian leaders are playing drama and wasting time and money on photo sessions and fashion shows on the name of fake peace talks and on the other hand Indian forces are killing innocent Kashmiri people,orphaning children,raping women and burning houses in Indian Held Kashmir.This is why Kashmiri people are watching peace talks but are ready for fight to get freedom from the Indian forces’ brutalities,cruelties and occupation because now kashmiri people have known very well that now peace talks have badly failed to resolve the most core and burning Kashmir issue in the region and the most importantly the world community is just seeing all these Indian forces’ brutalities,cruelties and mercilessness only as a silent spectator.Recommend

  • vasan
    Apr 16, 2011 - 11:49AM

    Jamshaid Faryal; Muslims all over the world will support Pakistan. What a joke, Talk some realities please. No muslim country wants to poke their nose in Kashmir quagmire, OIC will pass some resolution to avoid the continuous pestering of Pakistan, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Egypt will not give a damn about it. The less said about Afganistan and Iran , the better it is. Recommend

  • Anoop
    Apr 16, 2011 - 1:58PM


    Pakistani economy had done a better job till 1991, thats 44 years of better work than India. But, not anymore. India has got more people out of poverty than the entire population of Pakistan put together.

    Failure of the state is a different thing than poverty figures. Bangladesh has a lower poverty rate than India or Pakistan but Pakistan is still called a failed state simply because the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary are simple not working and haven’t been for the past 60 years.

    Yeah, I’ve seen your “brotherhood” with the Bengalis in 1971. Go read the Hammudur Rehman Commission report which was blocked by the Army until it was leaked by the Indians.

    There are radical elements in Bangladesh too but are in a minority and those radical elements will always support Pakistan. All radical elements in any Muslim society will have a liking for Pakistan. You should be proud.

    The Government, which is the true representative, is friendly with India and Indians and we have given a loan of $1 Billion. Pakistan can’t even get a decent amount from its “Muslim friends”.

    Anyway, I’ve been a product of India’s growth and so have been many of my friends. We are going to be the 3rd largest economy in 20 years, but Pakistan will not even be big enough to get into G20.

    Pakistan has been unstable ever since its birth and that trend will continue.Recommend

  • Hmm?
    Apr 16, 2011 - 11:36PM

    I admit that we played a better inning economically than India in first forty four years, and haven’t played well in last twenty years…. If India can can on right path economically Pakistan can get back on it too.. Now that is another question if India is really on right track?

    I am a product of pakistan’s unsuccessful economic and educational policies, I started from a village without electricity, where people now have cars, led TVs , running water and air conditioned houses’. :)

    Currently I am living (due to my job assignments) at the place where there are a lot of Indians and pakistanis and bengladeshies. Guess what, even though all of them are friendly, but pakistanis and begladeshies are family friends, they have parties together, they often eat together, they celebrate ramadhan together, they have built a mosque together, they have established a local community association together headed by a Pakistani and vice president is a bengladeshi. :).

    So even though 71 was an episode I blame Pakistani leaders for, but India played the same role that it later tried to play in Karachi, and now trying to play in bloachistan. But this time, we pakistanis won’t let our corrupt leaders succeed, neither India.

    And don’t worry we will make it to g-20 and eventually G-6 or 7, we have got the potential and resources, and 65 percent youth between 13-25 years of age, we need to fix our government and policies and we are working on it. :) if we can just raise our tax to GDP ratio in next 10 years, to international standard of around 16 percent, our economic problems and poverty will be gone, currently it’s at around 7-8 percent. And you might find it strange that over seas pakistanis are sending higher and higher remittences every year, this doesn’t happen in failing states, :)


  • maynotmatter
    Apr 17, 2011 - 12:48AM

    @Ahmer Ali – feel sorry for you dude. World is silent on “so called” kashmir issue cause they have seen it is pakistani militant doing attrocities on kashmiris not Indian military. All you lies about rape and house burning is clearly checked by world and hence they no longer support you :P . It is only misleaded pakistani like you who think kashmiris are suffering. It is only the azad kashmir that is suffering not indian kashmir. So read this, feel pain and get keep getting angry or put a leash on your amy and ISI.Recommend

  • Hedgefunder
    Apr 17, 2011 - 1:23AM

    Get real man!! If you think that India blocked the waterways , than be Grateful !!!! Otherwise perhaps whole of your land of pure, would have been submerged!!! Get it? Floods ! remember , you still have not managed to assist aam adami affected thru the floods and lets not even talk of stupid Watan Cards!!! Oh yes wnat to discuss all the Aid received dedicated for this disaster and cab it kindly be accounted????
    I assure you the reason for pakistan not receiving the level of aid is due to the fact, that donar nations have figured out that its BS and it does not really get to those in need !!!!!!
    Little bit of further information for your esteemed mind, that India is not in habit of sending its troops across the border, however your Army has created a proxy little band and trained and serviced it also named it to its wishes Allah’s Army, on its behalf to enter Indian terrority!!! They are known to you as so called Non State Actors!!!!!!!!!Recommend

  • ron(Indian)
    Apr 17, 2011 - 9:51AM

    You do have little knowledge about social problems, institutions, politics, economy. I suggest you to do homework otherwise you will fail in all these subjects. India has 64 years of democracy and today we do understand that these are the most difficult things to handle for any civilisation. Oh yes about remittences please consider all aspects you will find silver line as black. Just don’t look out at the figures but study the parameters to get the future idea. For your info It not just bangldeshis indians and pakistanis too are very good friends outside south asia. Recommend

  • Anoop
    Apr 17, 2011 - 10:44AM


    “If India can can on right path economically Pakistan can get back on it too..”

    –> Because Pakistan’s problems are structural, political, not just economic.

    India has a strong political base and flexible economic structure. It is constantly evolving as any democracy would. There are checks and balances, and some parts of it work better than others.

    Pakistan has NONE of this. Never has Government in Pakistan, democratically elected completed its term. God, in 64 years, not a single government has completed it. Army has ruled Pakistan for more than half its existence and still continues to play a dominant role. The Checks and Balances go out of the window when you realize that Army can essentially do what it wants!

    Just take a issue of Drone strikes. If you guys had real Democracy then there is no chance of Drone strikes taking place, the Civilians would have ordered the Army to shoot them down(If there was genuine Democracy there would be no Terror in the first place, for the Drones to come into the picture).

    So, India’s growth is strong, continuous and permanent. Pakistan’s is not.

    Inequalities exist in all Societies, even in the Developed nation of them all. It is also an indication of growth. It is the Capitalistic way. If you look at the big picture then all are benefiting. It better than wealth to flow into the Country than none at all. China also has the same levels of inequality, but since India is a Democracy it has to address them and it becomes a factor in Governance. Which is always a good thing.

    “So even though 71 was an episode I blame Pakistani leaders for, but India played the same role that it later tried to play in Karachi, and now trying to play in bloachistan.”

    –> Stop reading the Urdu newspapers. India wasn’t even in the picture when Pakistan decided to slaughter, rape and loot its own countrymen. We only came into the picture after scores of Refugees were forced into India. After that we only did what the whole world was secretly hoping us to do. At the end Evil lost and a new country was born. Good won.

    What on Earth do we have to do anything that is happening in Karachi? This is straight out of the Urdu Media I presume.

    Regarding Baluchistan, not a single International observer is willing to toe the Pakistani Army and Urdu Media line that India has anything do to with it.

    Here, is what the Guardian thinks of it.


    Again, India was not even in the picture in the 1970s when this happened.


    So, Balochistan is purely a Pakistani problem, the Army is responsible for it and is trying to divert attention from its failures by blaming India for it.

    Please go over the Guardian Report, it details who Pakistani Army is involved in extra judicial killings. Pakistanis talk about Kashmir, but ignore their own people. Ominous.

    Same with Karachi. Pakistan’s structural problem and its neglect of its Institutions is coming home to haunt it.. Big Time!

    “And don’t worry we will make it to g-20 and eventually G-6 or 7, we have got the potential and resources, and 65 percent youth between 13-25 years of age, we need to fix our government and policies and we are working on it. :) ”

    –> Time to wake up. I’ll help you. And, its better to read from a Pakistani’s mouth than mine.

    “According to Pakistan`s Planning Commission, GDP growth of nine per cent is needed to employ the 80 to 90 million Pakistanis who are under the age of 20. Unfortunately, growth stands at about two per cent, and youth employment prospects for the coming decades are dismal.”


    She goes onto add,“Although Pakistan could have 175 million workers by 2030, only one million jobs are created each year.”

    Here is another piece by another Pakistani Citizen:

    “And you might find it strange that over seas pakistanis are sending higher and higher remittences every year, this doesn’t happen in failing states, :)”

    –> So what? A country cannot run on Remittances. Its just Forex for the Government nothing more. It cannot reduce poverty in Pakistan. All it can do it give dollars for the Army to buy fancy weapons it cannot afford against a future Super Power. Quite Idiotic if you ask me.

    I suggest you to read this paper on Pakistan:


    Not very bright. This is coming from a neutral source!Recommend

  • Anoop
    Apr 17, 2011 - 10:49AM


    And, forgot to address the part about Next-11.

    Next-11 is a term coined by Goldman-Sachs to categorize a middle level power countries who have the Capacity to become Middle level powers. They CANNOT match the present Big 5 or the BRICs.

    That is why they call is the NEXT-11.

    Outside of Pakistan, nobody even user that term. If you listen to the discussions in the G-8 Summit or any other economic forum, they barely have recognized the term.

    Pakistan is clubbed with countries like Bangladesh,Mexico and Nigeria. That is NOT something to be proud of, dude.Recommend

  • Ahmed
    Apr 18, 2011 - 12:01AM

    About next eleven and bric. Thing is that Pakistan has no competition with india, cuz india is 800 pound gorilla vs Pakistan a 120 pound one. So there is no competition whatsoever, only countries comparable to India are china, USA, brazil, Russia, cuz of size of population and natural resources. So lets see how India “competes” with them, 
    GDP comparison.

    1 United States 14,657,800(million dollars)
    2 People’s Republic of China 5,878,257 (million dollars)
    7 Brazil 2,090,314 (millions of dollars)
    10 India 1,537,966 (millions of dollars)
    11 Russia 1,465,079 (millions of dollars)

    Chinas economy is 5 times bigger than india’s. Nothing to be proud of?
    Economy wise Pakistan and india’s comparison can only be done on per capita bases,
    Let’s see how they fair….
    33 South Korea 20,591 (a next eleven country)
    53 Brazil 10,816 dollars
    57 Turkey 10,399 (a next eleven country)
    94 China, People’s Republic of 4,382 dollars
    138 India 1,265 dollars (despite of all those billionaires)
    145 Pakistan 1,050 dollars (no billionaires, despite of really bad performance in last 20 years). 

    So if Pakistan can grow at 6-7 percent per year, it can pull all of its population out of poverty much quicker than India, and I am sure 6-7 is not too ambitious. 
    Lastly, about what others are saying about pakistan’s potential, your elders said Pakistan will not survive few months after it creation and will beg to be part of India again, turned out both Pakistan and bangladesh are doing pretty okay after 64 years. And flourished in many areas. Everybody said Pakistan cricket is over after attack on Sri lankan team, turned out we reached semi final of world cup and won 20/20 world cup after that. We have full faith in our destiny, and Pakistan is destined to be one of the greatest nation of the world. Recommend

  • maynotmatter
    Apr 18, 2011 - 12:20PM

    @Ahmed – my mathematical genius friend. You so conveniently overlooked the population disparity. But that’s ok , doesn’t change the world image does it ? :) Recommend

  • Hedgefunder
    Apr 18, 2011 - 2:40PM

    There is Big IF ! In realation to to 6 – 7 % Growth levels !!! One has to learn to start Taxing and cutting expenditure and stop begging, than one also needs to be repaying the current loans without further Borrowing further to repay interest charges.
    Then one can start to dream of growth rates, also small issue of creating stability in the country for foreign investments and creation of employment too!!!!
    So I suggest you start with the basics first and than start dreaming of the rest.Recommend

  • Ahmed
    Apr 19, 2011 - 4:11AM

    I don’t know what your stability, structure and all that good stuff has done for most deserving people of your country, it has only created more billionaires at the cost of farmers, Dalits and tribals..

    Check this list of per capita incomes, and see even war ravaged countries like Sri Lanka, Kosovo, sudan, iraq, yemen, congo are ahead of you as far as individual prosperity is concerned…. Even Bhutan is ahead and despite all it’s failures Pakistan is not too far behind….
    So i think it’s a good time to wake up from media and government induced sleep, and intoxication of false pride and smell the coffee, 

    Per capita income of different countries in dollars…..
    89 Iran 4,741
    90 Jordan 4,500
    91 Angola 4,478
    92 Algeria 4,435
    93 Macedonia, Republic of 4,431
    94 China, People’s Republic of 4,382
    95 Bosnia and Herzegovina 4,319
    96 Tunisia 4,200
    97 Belize 4,159
    98 Ecuador 3,984
    99 Turkmenistan 3,939
    100 El Salvador 3,701
    101 Albania 3,677
    102 Tonga 3,518
    103 Fiji 3,518
    104 Morocco 3,249
    105 Tuvalu[4] 3,200
    106 Cape Verde 3,157
    107 Kosovo[4] 3,086
    108 Swaziland 3,061
    109 Indonesia 3,015
    110 Ukraine 3,000
    111 Congo, Republic of the 2,983
    112 Vanuatu 2,896
    113 Samoa[4] 2,896
    114 Guatemala 2,888
    115 Paraguay 2,886
    116 Syria 2,877
    117 Guyana 2,868
    118 Armenia 2,846
    119 Egypt 2,789
    120 Georgia 2,658
    121 Iraq 2,564
    122 Sri Lanka 2,435
    123 Mongolia 2,227
    124 Honduras 2,016
    125 Philippines 2,007
    126 Bhutan 1,978
    127 Bolivia 1,858
    128 Sudan 1,705
    129 Moldova 1,630
    130 Papua New Guinea 1,488
    131 Kiribati 1,479
    132 Nigeria 1,389
    133 Djibouti 1,383
    134 Uzbekistan 1,380
    135 Solomon Islands 1,340
    136 Ghana 1,312
    137 Yemen 1,282
    138 India.       1,265Recommend

  • Ahmed
    Apr 19, 2011 - 4:20AM

    May be you would like to check out human development index,

    In this list you main competitor china is at 89th position, sri lanka at 91st, india is proudly at 119, Pakistan humbly at 125thRecommend

  • Ahmed
    Apr 19, 2011 - 4:30AM

    Bhaya India was very actively involved in creation of separation movement in bangadesh, starting from Agartala, to creation of muktibahini in kalkata, which was later involved in killing of hundreds of thousands of beharies and west pakistanis, and with full aid of Indian progaganda, pushing people to west Bengal ….. Now I am not saying pakistan doesn’t share any blame, but India role was criminal. Even if I accept your argument of refugees, than will you accept pakistan’s right of interfering in Kashmir, cuz we still have millions of refugees living in Lahore, rawalpindi and other cities who had to migrate after Jammu massacre?Recommend

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