The philosophy of Pakistan

Published: November 21, 2012

The writer is an author, most recently of Slum Child (2010). She has written for numerous publications including Dawn, The Friday Times and Chowk

The other night, I watched a play in Karachi’s Arts Council called “Pawnay 14 August” (“Quarter to 14th August”) written by famed Pakistani playwright and actor Anwar Maqsood. The play’s premise is simple: three great leaders of the Pakistan Movement come down from heaven for one day to see what has become of the country they envisioned sixty-plus years ago.

As they wait for a flight to Islamabad in the Karachi airport lounge, they come across a variety of modern-day Pakistanis who show them that life in the Islamic Republic hasn’t turned out as successfully as they’d hoped. It’s a comedy with a bitter bite at the end as the founder of Pakistan, Muhammad Ali Jinnah, is unrecognisable to everyone and is finally mistaken for the actor Christopher Lee (who portrayed him in a biopic) by a little girl with an autograph book.

One of the other figures portrayed in the play is Allama Iqbal, the famed philospher-poet whose verses inspired the Pakistan movement. He wrote both in Urdu and Persian, and is also known for exploring the concept of  “Khudi”, or the self, which correlates with the Islamic concept of the divine spark that exists in every human being. Iqbal surmised in his great work Asrar-e-Khudi, or The Secrets of the Self, that the self is the transformer of the spirit through which humans cannot just achieve tremendous goals on earth, but actually know the face of God.

Named as Pakistan’s national poet, Iqbal’s ideology was the philosophical skeleton on which the flesh of Pakistan’s creation was draped — he believed in the nobility of humankind to such an extent that the people were moved enough to actually create a new country for themselves. Yet, a running joke in the play was that Iqbal’s dream of a nation for Muslims carved out of India had turned into a nightmare, a zombie country characterised by brutality, mass confusion and dishonesty. “Even if you saw such a dream”, moaned Mohammed Ali Jauhar, the third of the illustrious leaders, “why did you have to tell him (Jinnah) about it?”

Iqbal

Still, it’s very easy to understand what’s gone wrong in Pakistan through the prism of Iqbal’s vision: we Pakistanis have become disconnected from the self or at least that spark that resides within all of us and keeps us connected to one another and to divinity. Swayed by competing ideologies — militarism, capitalism, Islamism to name a few — we have lost direction. Our journey to selfhood, which Iqbal said was tantamount to human development — and collectively, the journey to nationhood — has been interrupted, replaced by a journey in which a pure heart is not as important as a full pocket and a self-righteous, hypocritical façade.

Is it possible or even desirable that we as Pakistanis find our way back to Iqbal’s vision or has it become outdated with the increased economic and sociopolitical pressures of the modern world, the War on Terror and the nuclear competition with India? I don’t know the answer to this question. What I do know, though, is that if we turn our backs on Iqbal’s philosophy, we lose the chance to see ourselves as worthy human beings, deserving of better than the mess our country is in today. Allama Iqbal was someone who believed in not just the potential but the very real greatness in each and every Pakistani. And every human being needs someone to believe in her, so that she may believe in herself and aspire to raise herself to the heights of recreating this nation: a newer, better version that Jinnah, Iqbal and Shaukat Ali would truly be happy to see.

Published in The Express Tribune, November 22nd, 2012.

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Reader Comments (61)

  • MilesToGo
    Nov 21, 2012 - 10:33PM

    Better title would have been “Islamic philosophy of Pakistan”

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  • Ali
    Nov 21, 2012 - 10:39PM

    Very enlightenment. I always thought Iqbal believed in a Technocratic Govt, Ghazwa-e-Hind and 4th Generation warfare.

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  • harsh
    Nov 21, 2012 - 10:53PM

    We need one wise sane leader to change the complexion on Pakistan I believe imran khan has all the ingredients to take Pakistan to greatest nation of world only if we choose right people and stop vote like jat to jat khichi to khichi warriach to warriach stop this nonsense and think about better future or else its all doom and gloom

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  • sabi
    Nov 21, 2012 - 10:54PM

    Iqbal says juda ho deen siasat se tou reh jati ha changazi which means state must control the religion where as quran says there is no compulsion in relgion.
    Jinnah understood the philosphy of quran and went for secular state quite opposit to Iqbal’s vision.Later the oppurtunists turned their back to Jinnah’s vision viz a viz quran basic principle and adopted So-called philosphy of Iqbal and brought new resolution called objective resolution
    History was delebrately distorted and Iqbal was projected as the real heir to this land.Today we have Iqbal’s ideaology in place and we have Pakistan sunk in blood.
    Iqbal son Dr javed Iqbal refuses with right wingers interpretion of Iqbal’s message.
    To me Iqbal was a very good poet and I always enjoy his poetry but not necessarily with his concept of a state if any.

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  • faraz
    Nov 21, 2012 - 10:54PM

    Iqbal had no vision and he had nothing to do with Pakistan movement. Come out of textbook board books

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  • Sinclair
    Nov 21, 2012 - 11:08PM

    … or the self, which correlates with the Islamic concept of the divine spark that exists in every human being.

    … have become disconnected from the self or at least that spark that resides within all of us and keeps us connected to one another and to divinity.

    Dont know about others reading this, but that sounds like Hinduism to me. Atman, Brahman – its a long story. Do read up about other religions too.

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  • indian
    Nov 21, 2012 - 11:41PM

    @Ali: gazwa-e-hind??? really>??? u thought that way?? even after shamelessly loosing 4 wars?? surprised :O

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  • Toticalling
    Nov 21, 2012 - 11:45PM

    The question boils down to this. DOES Pakistan know what it wants to be when it is peaceful?” This question is as pertinent now as it was 1947 and before when Iqbal was still alive. Sixty years on, that debate still resonates. The economy is in tatters and resentment of the establishment is on the rise. When I look at Pakistan now I think of Tolstoy who said: It was the best of time and the worst of times. Democracy is taking root but the right wing intolerance has increased. Killings and fear is rampant.
    I am not sure if Iqbal or Jinnah foresaw that. These challenges need solutions of 21st century. Dreaming of utopia will get us nowhere.

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  • Nadir
    Nov 21, 2012 - 11:46PM

    We need to focus on individual journies to make our homes, neighbourhoods and communities a better place. There will never be a national philosophy, as we are too large, too populous, with split loyalties. We could argue that a national philosophy could be developed, but that is nothing more than propaganda, and we cannot wait until everyone is enlightened. Perhaps our national philosophy could be reduced to paying taxes, modesty, help thy neighbour and non-violence. Fat chance any of them will get far meeting those goals.

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  • BlackJack
    Nov 21, 2012 - 11:48PM

    I don’t know where to start.
    1. …he believed in the nobility of humankind to such an extent that the people were moved enough to actually create a new country for themselves. Why grudge the people of Balochistan this nobility – or does the divine spark die once the new country is created?
    2. … have become disconnected from the self or at least that spark that resides within all of us and keeps us connected to one another and to divinity. Yes of course, the solution for your problems is more religion, not less.
    3. Allama Iqbal was someone who believed in not just the potential but the very real greatness in each and every Pakistani. My mistake, I thought he never mentioned the name of Pakistan even once in any of his writings.
    4. And last, …three great leaders of the Pakistan Movement come down from heaven for one day… The assumption being that they are in heaven – for what? By that count, I assume Sheikh Mujibur Rehman must be in an even higher heaven, since he freed his country from actual oppression instead of an imagined one?
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  • Nov 21, 2012 - 11:50PM

    believing in humanity and wanting a nation for muslims – do you not see the contradiction in iqbal – and do not blame the hindu mahasabha, gandhi or whatever other external force made him change his stance – if you believe in humanity – truly – nothing should change your views. Something wrong with the heroes – sadly. – I hope there was a section in the play where the modern -day citizens of pakistan questioned these three men of their insecurities that lead them to divisive politics, leaving poor muslims and hindus to pay for their personal ambitions. And we are all still paying.

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  • Falcon
    Nov 22, 2012 - 12:10AM

    A good and rare read on ET. Pakistanis (specially educated ones) are going through a severe identity crisis phase. Unless we own Pakistan today, we will continue to shift the blame of our mistakes to forefathers of the country.

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  • Falcon
    Nov 22, 2012 - 12:16AM

    @sabi:
    There is a good probability you misunderstood that verse. ‘Deen’ refers to a framework of morality in this context. What Iqbal meant was that morality can not be divorced from politics because then it will become a pure selfish Machiavellian exercise.

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  • Parvez
    Nov 22, 2012 - 12:29AM

    I think you got the third character in the play wrong but that’s really inconsequential.
    The idea of Jinnah’s Pakistan died with him. What is trying to take its place is the jumbled up thinking of players whose primary concerns are themselves and lust for power because they lack the pedigree, the vision and the purpose to understand history.

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  • gp65
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:17AM

    “Named as Pakistan’s national poet, Iqbal’s ideology was the philosophical skeleton on which the flesh of Pakistan’s creation was draped — he believed in the nobility of humankind to such an extent that the people were moved enough to actually create a new country for themselves”

    This is unclear. If he believed in the nobility of the humankind – there shoud have been no need for a new country for Muslims right? All the noble humans could have lived together in the same country it would seem. Or are you saying that Hindus are not human?

    “Is it possible or even desirable that we as Pakistanis find our way back to Iqbal’s vision”
    Anything is possible but the second question you pose is more relevant i.e. is it desirable to find your way to Iqbal’s vision? In India we certainly do not want to be stuck in 1947 and be chained to our founder’s vision – however great they were. Pakistanis today need to decide what they want the future to be. Do they want to live in a secular country or an Islamic one? Do they want to live in a democracy or army rule or some type of caliphate? What type of criminal law do the want – modelled on British common law or shariah? DO they want to be a social security state or national security state?

    “Allama Iqbal was someone who believed in not just the potential but the very real greatness in each and every Pakistani.”
    Forget Zaid Hamid and what he says for a moment. Bina can you please provide any reference where Iqbal asked for a separate country for Muslims?

    And by the way why would Jinnah be surprised? He should be pleased. If we keep aside the August 11 speech which was an aberration anyway, he actually did not think that Hindus and Muslims could live together. SO I am sure he would be rather pleased to see that present day Pakistan hardly has any Hindus and the country is on its path to becoming a pure Muslim state.

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  • Sultan
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:23AM

    @BlackJack:

    Indian hatemill turning full speed!

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  • Uza Syed
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:52AM

    Philosophy of Pakistan if there’s any, seems to be ——– Don’t think, don’t ask just keep on believing whatever nonsense is fed and propagated ——To me philosophy, any Philosophy and Pakistan are mutually exclusive, we are the most thoughtless people.

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  • Faraz
    Nov 22, 2012 - 7:56AM

    @BlackJack:
    Bravo. You said it .

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  • Observer
    Nov 22, 2012 - 8:12AM

    @sabi:

    “Jinnah understood the philosphy of quran and went for secular state quite opposit to Iqbal’s vision”

    I am afraid you need to independently study the quran and the Hadiths. Quran does not teach secularism, but quite the opposite. For an example, have you ever heard of Jizya?

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  • Observer
    Nov 22, 2012 - 8:17AM

    @Sinclair:

    “… or the self, which correlates with the Islamic concept of the divine spark that exists in every human being.
    … have become disconnected from the self or at least that spark that resides within all of us and keeps us connected to one another and to divinity.

    Dont know about others reading this, but that sounds like Hinduism to me. Atman, Brahman – its a long story. Do read up about other religions too.”

    Good observation. What the author states with regard to “self” and “divinity” comes from Sufism. Sufism, itself borrowed these concepts from Hinduism. Such meta physical mysticism have no part in the quran or the Hadiths. Many Pakistanis incorrectly conclude that Such sufi mystic thoughts are form real Islam.

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  • Salman
    Nov 22, 2012 - 8:41AM

    Well for me Iqbal is nothing more than a poet. Everything else that is associated with him is a mere propaganda. When we talk about the Pakistani nation. Perhaps, we have to talk about how to reshuffle our nationalistic ideology as compared to the religious and dare I say a very destructive ideology.

    The ever globalizing world has changed how we look at nations and how we preceive nationhood. I am quite happy to see countries such as Brazil, USA, Canada, New Zealand etc celebrate diversity and see at as an important part of their nationhood and nation building.

    Pakistan needs to follow the examples of its Muslim brother United Arab Emirates, where it recognizes itself as a diverse nation made up of various federation. Pakistan is a diverse nation of diverse racial, religious and geographical groups. And should call itself a United Federations of Pakistan (Mutahida Pakistan) where it recognizes under the constitution that it is a nation made up of united federations and peoples such as Pukhtoon, Sindhi, Punjabi, Baluchi, Shias, Christians and is a nation that takes pride in diversity.

    Having a religious nation is an idea of the 19th century which happened in the 20th century for us. Todays world celebrates diversity of ideas instead of condoning them. This is the only way I see Pakistan progressing!

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  • pmbm
    Nov 22, 2012 - 8:54AM

    Islam is considered an ideology , a way of life, more than religion. But what ideology is Islamism?

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  • Mia
    Nov 22, 2012 - 9:07AM

    So, how do you since you are the one proposing this insanity define the philosophy of a nation? Then, would you think its time where you leave Iqbal alone. The man was a great poet and indeed a philosopher but, from all my reading save for what circulates around Pakistan I am yet to read where Iqbal suggested a separate Muslim nation. Yes, he did indeed suggest a separate Muslim province but one within the greater British India. You know culinary school is good vocational training.

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  • sabi
    Nov 22, 2012 - 10:19AM

    @Observer:
    “am afraid you need to independently study the quran and the Hadiths. Quran does not teach secularism, but quite the opposite. For an example, have you ever heard of Jizya?”
    Ok.from your suggestion I assume that you do an indepedant study of quran and hadiths,may I ask what have you understood by jizya.

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  • Musharif Hussain
    Nov 22, 2012 - 11:27AM

    I believe every human has spark of goodness, but we have to fuel it.

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  • Toticalling
    Nov 22, 2012 - 11:52AM

    @gp65: Well said. Iqbal changed his stance many times. Sometimes he did not think state should be separated from religion and another time he talked of secularism. In his poem he once said: Hindistan humara …and religion does not teach to differentiate between faiths( mazhab nahi sikhata apus men ber rackhna) and we Indians are all the same. and yet joined JInnah for a separate state. He was a great poet, but we should not give too much importance about his other views.

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  • Toticalling
    Nov 22, 2012 - 12:28PM

    @gp65: Well said. Iqbal changed his stance many times. Sometimes he did not think state should be separated from religion and another time he talked of secularism. In his poem he once said: Hindistan humara …and religion does not teach to differentiate between faiths( mazhab nahi sikhata apus men ber rackhna) and we Indians are all the same. and yet joined JInnah for a separate state. He was a great poet, but we should not give too much importance about his other views. s

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  • azam
    Nov 22, 2012 - 12:43PM

    The use of the term philosophy is completely inappropriate. Rest of article has just been romanticized and very objective narration.

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  • P N Eswaran
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:02PM

    @harsh:
    The three great visionaries of Islamic Pakistan has lead Pakistan so far i.e is to the edge of the cliff. The fourth one is needed to complete the rest.

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  • Javed Mohmand
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:06PM

    @Bina Sha: Apparently you have heard about Iqbal or read text books, but not read him.Some facts which you may not be knowing,he had three wives and a lover Atia Faizi,was fond of wine,Huqa and Kabootars,wrote”Saray Jihan Se Acha Hindustan Hamara”,never mentioned name Pakistan in his life,denied that he ever made demand of a Muslim state at his Allahabad address,he liked Mussolini,was awarded knighted hood,his name was Sir Mohammad Iqbal,which we have changed to “Allama Iqbal.He should be remembered as a great poet.

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  • Nov 22, 2012 - 1:08PM

    Two questions..

    1) Which Jinnah are you talking about? The Jinnah which called for Direct Action day massacre or the one who gave the one Aug 11 speech?

    2) Which Iqbal are you talking about? The one who said “Saare Jahaan se acha, Hindustan hamara..” or the one that is taught in your History books?

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  • P N Eswaran
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:18PM

    “he believed in the nobility of humankind to such an extent that the people were moved enough to actually create a new country for themselves.”

    Are you suggesting that Iqbal needed a Muslim country for the nobility to be invoked or else like the Muslim invaders all over the world he believed Muslims only to belong to ‘humankind’.

    How wrong he was is proved by both the word ‘human’ and ‘kind’ being passe in Pakistan.

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  • P N Eswaran
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:22PM

    @Parvez:
    You said “The idea of Jinnah’s Pakistan died with him”. Would Jinnah have created Pakistan if he had the foreknowledge of what Pakistan would be like in 2012? My answer is – Yes!

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  • MSS
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:32PM

    It will be better to forget Jinnah and Iqbal. It is what the Pakistani society want. Do they want a prosperous, stable coherent and a happy Pakistan or is it the poverty stricken, strife ridden, unstable totalitarian pariah state that the country is jackknifing towards. Think, think, think.

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  • spacedoutwriting
    Nov 22, 2012 - 1:41PM

    Dear Bina,

    Going back to the original philosophy of a country makes for a poignant play wherever you are but I am not sure if that’s helps us in framing our future. Look at the Republicans in US, instead of their Lincolnian history – they want to go back to an imagined past where America was defined by individualism, capitalism, Christian values and the right to bear arms.

    Jinnah’s Pakistan, Iqbal’s Pakistan are not the only visions of Pakistan around witness the Taliban and their imitators.

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  • Nov 22, 2012 - 2:10PM

    we are still dreaming. come on , grow up. Iqbal was a great poet , but he had nothing to do with Pakistan movement . Predictions of Maulana Azad are becming true. Pakistan is going to be a failed state.

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  • sajid khilji
    Nov 22, 2012 - 3:22PM

    You said “The idea of Jinnah’s Pakistan died with him”. Would Jinnah have created Pakistan if he had the foreknowledge of what Pakistan would be like in 2012? My answer is – NO!Recommend

  • IdiotCrusher
    Nov 22, 2012 - 3:45PM

    @BruteForce:

    Two questions..
    1) Which Jinnah are you talking about? The Jinnah which called for Direct Action day massacre or the one who gave the one Aug 11 speech?
    2) Which Iqbal are you talking about? The one who said “Saare Jahaan se acha, Hindustan hamara..” or the one that is taught in your History books?

    Two Answers
    1) Both. He asked for direct action after all political negotiations with the intrasingent dhoti drama called Gandhi failed. There was only violence in Bengal, which already had communal feuds brewing–in the rest of the country, Direct Action day passed without incident. Jinnah openly condemened the killings. Read the British reports from the day and not use your reflexive hatred for all things Pakistan to concoct fantastic conclusions.
    2) Both. Just like most Muslims in india, Iqbal would have loved to live in an undivided india where he felt his rights will be protected in a democracy and not a majority rule which india later became. So, like all sane people, he opted for a separate country for the Muslims.

    Anything else I can help with, PentUpForce?

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  • IdiotCrusher
    Nov 22, 2012 - 4:20PM

    @P N Eswaran:

    Dude, wait till the Europeans and Americans pulling the offshore jobs back onshore, which will happen soon given the dire straits their economies are in, and you will see the real strength of india–the north will turn on the south! The caste system that you avoid talking about still lurks in the background unabated. And the 80% of the have nots that no one seems to care about will have their day in the sun. Wait for more Slumdog Millionaire type movies bringing the truth to a theater near you.

    The one who boasts about his success should be frowned up; the one who boasts about success they have not even had yet should be left alone to enjoy their fantasies. Have fun, little indian!

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  • IdiotCrusher
    Nov 22, 2012 - 4:21PM

    @Javed Mohmand:

    And you also suffer from the condition called “selective amnesia”: you conveniently forgot that it was the same Iqbal who went to London to personally convince Jinnah, who was enjoying a comfortable existence in England, partying at his mansion in Hampstead, driving around in a Rolls, enjoying his Scotch and Cohibas, and perfecting his Billiard, to come back to the dirty politics of subcontinent to lead the Muslim’s efforts for a homeland after having given up on Congress! Jinnah, a secular, modern man to the core, despised the dhoti drama called Gandhi, for all his primitivity, strange sleeping habits with young girls (including his own niece!) and overt use of Hindu symbols in politics, while still claiming to be secular!!!

    Please, please, please stop re-writing history. No one wanted a separate homeland for Muslims in the beginning but only after Congress’ continued Malarkey, the Muslims of india got fed up and were compelled to make one for themselves and I salute them for this achievement. That we cocked it up is our fault, not Iqbal’s or Jinnahs! Ask the poplulation of Gaza what it means to have independence and perhaps that will clear the cobwebs growing in your head!

    Those who don’t like Pakistan are encouraged to move to Bombay and feel the “love” from Bal Thackery worshippers. Ask why Bombay was closed on the day of the death of this hatemonger, and you will be thrown in jail! So much for the secular drama staged by the indian government–it may have an impression on naive Westerners but not us who have roamed and mostly ruled the same lands for centuries. india may claim to be secular but indians are definitely not–with some noble exceptions, most of them are still rabid Hindus who hate Muslims, unless they are their Arab paymasters in the Middle East, from the depths of their hearts! And this whole “let’s open the trade” has nothing to do with amity–it is a cold blooded bunya mind’s calculation to make profits and to encroach on the industrial base in Pakistan.

    We need to know that we screwed up a nice place but we can also fix it–there is no need to become theatrical and/or hysterical. Pakistan Zinda o Painda bad!!!

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  • Nov 22, 2012 - 5:45PM

    @IdiotCrusher:

    “after all political negotiations with the intrasingent dhoti drama called Gandhi failed. “

    1) So if talks with Taliban fail, do you support them taking up arms against the Pakistani state? If talks with Balochis fail, do you support them taking up arms?

    2) Jinnah said “We shall have India divided or we shall have India destroyed.”

    Yep, that sounds like a condemnation from JInnah. Even Suhrawardy, later to be Pakistan’s PM, Jinnah’s deputy, who orchestrated the attack, said he regretted the violence. What does that tell about the two characters?

    “Direct Action day passed without incident”

    Are you serious? Kiddo, I’ve read more History than you have.. Give it a rest, please.. I can quote Pakistani historians too. You cannot twist facts, maybe intentions and political reasons, but never ever facts.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DirectActionDay

    “within 72 hours, more than 4,000
    people lost their lives and 100,000
    residents in the city of Calcutta were
    left homeless.”

    ” Just like most Muslims in india, Iqbal would have loved to live in an undivided india where he felt his rights will be protected in a democracy and not a majority rule which india later became”

    I am not complaining about the creation of Pakistan, dude. In fact, I’ve written a whole blogpost dedicated to the creation of a Pakistani state and stated the reasons why India has only benefited from it.

    http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/how-pakistan-is-good-for-india/

    Just one question though. You hear of Hindus wanting to migrate to India from Pakistan. How many Muslims want to go from India to Pakistan, I wonder?

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  • Anonymous
    Nov 22, 2012 - 7:11PM

    @Javed Mohmand:
    In addition to what u say.
    His routine on weekends was to go to ” daata darbar” at mid night for music, at 2 AM he will go to area around shahi mosque for mujra, after that he offerd fajar prayers, after that he will buy angooroon( grapes) ka sharbat. Then go to enjoy and sleep . Add 4 wives to that “what a life”.
    We have made him mullah with petrodollars!!!!!!!!!

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  • Emnosh
    Nov 22, 2012 - 7:35PM

    I thought the third one would have been Ajmal Kasab !

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  • Sultan
    Nov 22, 2012 - 8:21PM

    @BruteForce:

    You are more dumb and blind than the piffle and balderdash you often write suggests. Here are the rebuttals to your fake historical supremacy:

    2) Jinnah said “We shall have India divided or we shall have India destroyed.”

    He said no such thing–it is a complete fabrication of your sick, hateful imagination. More dhoti drama!

    “within 72 hours, more than 4,000
    people lost their lives and 100,000
    residents in the city of Calcutta were
    left homeless.”

    You have a knack for glazing over many words in a sentence in trying to hone in on selective facts, like a pig trying to forage in the forest, to support your half-baked arguments floating legless above your hatefilled ego. This is what I wrote:

    There was only violence in Bengal, which already had communal feuds brewing–in the rest of the country, Direct Action day passed without incident

    Get a new prescription for your racist glasses–the current ones seem to land you in the foot in mouth scholarly arena!

    I am not complaining about the creation of Pakistan, dude. In fact, I’ve written a whole blogpost dedicated to the creation of a Pakistani state and stated the reasons why India has only benefited from it.

    Typical indian skulduggery! You are right, you don’t complaint about Pakistan as secretly, just like your Dhoti Drama Gandhi, your were happy to be rid of the “maleesh” Muslims!!! Your deep seated hatred for Muslims oozes out, like puss out of gangerine, in all your posts!!!

    Just one question though. You hear of Hindus wanting to migrate to India from Pakistan. How many Muslims want to go from India to Pakistan, I wonder?

    No, both have better places to go. Whenever I land in any GCC country, I see a mile long queue of your Hindu buddies waiting to pick up their Aqama so that they can wipe the toilets clean in an Arab Muslim’s house to send some money back to Gujarat to support RRS attacking the Muslims. Muslims from India leave in droves to go to US, Canada, UK, Middle East, etc. Of course, they are not stupid like you–when they see something better, they go for it whereas you and your ilk keep ranting “saray jahan say accha, hindustan humara.”

    It is exactly racist, history bending morons like you, spewing their hatred in these forums, who are doing immense damage to the effort to put the past behind. I am an educated person who also believed in peace with india but since reading many, many hateful, twisted posts (masquerading as history or scholarly comments), I have begun to change my mind. You are not the only one who has kissed the Blarney stone–we have also read history and know how to use language to crush idiots!

    Don’t forget, neither time nor nations stand still. Just around 20 years ago, india almost went bankrupt! And just around 30 years ago, you were all half communist, living from one crap five year state plan to another, driving around in Ambassador jalopies, looking in amazement at the material progress in Pakistan–dig out Kuldip Nayyar’s glowing reviews of his visits to Lahore in the 80s!!! Pakistan will rise to the challenge to cure its self inflicted wounds. You worry about your own 80% filthy, starving, forgotten masses hidden in the hinterland of india, SpentForce! They will have their day in the son–Ayn Rand’s children, the indian neocons, beware!

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  • Sultan
    Nov 22, 2012 - 8:44PM

    @BruteForce:

    http://peddarowdy.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/how-pakistan-is-good-for-india/

    Thank you for sharing the innermost thoughts of your sick mind. I invite all the readers in this forum to read the filth spewed by our holier than thou Mr. BruteForce in his blog–truely disgusting!

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  • Laughter
    Nov 22, 2012 - 9:47PM

    Ha Ha.

    I was literally rolling on the floor reading Mr ‘Sultan’s post. He really came down like ton of very angry bricks:

    “You are more dumb and blind than the piffle and balderdash”

    “your fake historical supremacy”

    “complete fabrication of your sick, hateful imagination. More dhoti drama!”

    “knack for glazing over many words in a sentence in trying to hone in on selective facts, like a pig trying to forage in the forest, to support your half-baked arguments floating legless above your hatefilled ego.”

    “Get a new prescription for your racist glasses–the current ones seem to land you in the foot in mouth scholarly arena!”

    “Typical indian skulduggery! You are right, you don’t complaint about Pakistan as secretly, just like your Dhoti Drama Gandhi, your were happy to be rid of the “maleesh” Muslims!!! Your deep seated hatred for Muslims oozes out, like puss out of gangerine, in all your posts!!!”

    “Whenever I land in any GCC country, I see a mile long queue of your Hindu buddies waiting to pick up their Aqama so that they can wipe the toilets clean in an Arab Muslim’s house to send some money back to Gujarat to support RRS attacking the Muslims. Muslims from India leave in droves to go to US, Canada, UK, Middle East, etc.”

    “racist, history bending morons like you, spewing their hatred in these forums, who are doing immense damage to the effort to put the past behind.”

    (I am an educated person who also believed in peace)

    “living from one crap five year state plan to another, driving around in Ambassador jalopies, looking in amazement at the material progress in Pakistan”

    “80% filthy, starving, forgotten masses hidden in the hinterland of india, SpentForce! They will have their day in the son–Ayn Rand’s children, the indian neocons, beware!”

    “innermost thoughts of your sick mind.”

    “filth spewed by our holier than thou Mr. BruteForce”

    “truely disgusting!”

    Again

    (I am an educated person who also believed in peace)

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  • Arijit Sharma
    Nov 22, 2012 - 11:29PM

    @Sultan: ” … Whenever I land in any GCC country, I see a mile long queue of your Hindu buddies waiting to pick up their Aqama so that they can wipe the toilets clean in an Arab Muslim’s house to send some money back to … “

    So much for your rants. I have been in HR in Qatar and in those days express instructions were to not hire Pakistanis/Egyptians/Lebanese for Finance positions.

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  • Prerna
    Nov 23, 2012 - 2:37AM

    he believed in the nobility of humankind to such an extent that the people were moved enough to actually create a new country for themselves’

    Still trying to wrap my head around that.

    @Sultan : Your suffering saddens me deeply.

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  • KT
    Nov 23, 2012 - 4:29AM

    To understand a lot of what happened, we need to go to 1857 not 1947. After losing the War of Independence (fought jointly by Hindus and Muslims against the British), both adopted different ways of dealing with the emerging order. Muslims, dejected at losing an empire became more inward looking, imersed themselves into their religion and rejected anything contemporary. On the contrary, Hindus adopted British education while maintaining their traditional and religious values as they saw a balance in both necessary to prepare themselves for India after the British left. Only in a matter of a few decades Hindus left Muslims behind by about 200 years, intellectually, socially and culturally. A few visionaries rose to awaken the Indian Muslims out of their misguided state. Iqbal was not the only one. Sir Syed was another whose gift of Aligarh University has been of value to all Indians. Iqbal also emerged as a social activist before being a politician. I am not sure if the author herself has read Asrar-e-Khudi. It is an eye opener. It warns of Muslims against radicalism, following religion without understanding it and in fact subtly predicts today’s Pakistan if Muslims followed religion without its values.

    I am a Pakistani Muslim and I love my country (and I love India and Indians too) and understand why Muslims at that time stood for Pakistan. It was a very confusing time for Muslims after losing their status in a country where even as a minority they were major players for centuries. Their fear, uncertainties and doubts about a united India led to partition more than anything else.

    Every man (and woman) is fallable. Iqbal was a human and had his weaknesses. People who judge him on his weaknesses, I invite them to read his work to understand his greatness as well.

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  • Another North Indian
    Nov 23, 2012 - 8:30AM

    KT

    Agreed with you on much in your post, but was surprised at your interpretation of Asrar-e-khudi. In Asrar-e-khudi Iqbal was asking Muslims to be everything that many liberal Muslims say Muslims should not be.

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  • Another North Indian
    Nov 23, 2012 - 8:58AM

    KT

    Just checked, and fear that you may have had something else in mind.

    In Asrar-e-Khudi, Iqbal makes fun of the West, of Plato, of Hindus, of sufis, speaks of the race of tigers who have khudi and the race of sheep who negate khudi, argues that the race of tigers should behave like tigers and race of sheep ought to keep their place as sheep, warns the tigers about how cunning and devious sheep corrupt upright and brave tigers into giving up their natural religion by making them feel guilty about violence and force which are the right of tigers, how the forceful love of Mahmud broke the passive knowledge of somnath – the book being openly anti-intellectual, makes claims to Greece and China – being openly supremacist.

    KT, please check if you were referring to some other book.

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  • Sultan
    Nov 23, 2012 - 4:04PM

    Prerna:

    @Sultan : Your suffering saddens me deeply

    And your fake sorrow makes me feel ill.

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  • Prerna
    Nov 24, 2012 - 1:04AM

    @Sultan: ‘And your fake sorrow makes me feel ill.’

    It was supposed to.

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  • Nov 24, 2012 - 10:04AM

    Pakistan was bound to generate into excessive religiosity, fathers of the nation never realized that.

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  • Komal S
    Nov 24, 2012 - 10:17AM

    @KT:
    Just my thoughts, i always hear under British Hindus leveraged the British system better than muslims. Not sure i am convinced. See when the British came, the Muslim elitist were equal in numbers as Hindus because they were ruling most of India(eventhough their population was less). I think also the Muslim elitist were eqally getting focussed on western education and also more western in their behaviour/outlook as compared to Hindus. I think the real issue was the Muslim elitist were getting nervous about post independence scenario with a Hindu majority state. Now if their concerns were genuine or not is a different issue.

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  • Sultan
    Nov 24, 2012 - 5:12PM

    @Prerna:

    @Sultan: ‘And your fake sorrow makes me feel ill.’
    It was supposed to.

    Hmmmm. Had me fold for a fleeting moment that even an indian can have a human emotion for another!

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  • Akhter
    Nov 24, 2012 - 7:38PM

    @Observer: GP65 Blackjack and others
    If the purpose of Almost ALL Indian origin writers was to indulge in Pakistan Bashing at every opportunity you are doing a fine job! (some of us have a life and do not spend our entire waking hour thinking of espousing spiteful comments).
    On many forums i have welcomed your right to make insightful positive comments however almost all the blogs on ET are dominated by a few writers who have nothing better to do but to make inaccurate presumptions/statements about historical events that may or may not have occurred. The writer of this blog had raised some very valid points on how far we have come from the ideology of our founding fathers.
    In fact for your information GP65 The Hindu scriptures that Millions of Hindu’s live there life by today are thousands of years old, the Guru Granth sahib is a living embodiment of the words of Guru Nanak Jee, Millions of Sikhs live there life by his sacred words.
    The American constitution is based on the collective vision of its founding fathers so it does not mean they are stuck in the days of their founding fathers, furthermore if Gandhi Jee’s belief on non violence and tolerance are out dated in modern India then i guess lots of issues can also arise from this.
    Finally the above comments about Hindu minorities situation in Pakistan can also be compared to the residents of Assam or the Bodo tribes right to self determination or perhaps the massacre of Muslims in Bombay or perhaps the Muslims in Gujrat etc. But then in my view who am i to tell you how to treat your residents?, or how to run your country?.
    As far as Pakistan is concerned be it a Secular state/Islamic Republic/Caliphate. That is a question that only Pakistani’s can answer, Finally please stop quoting plight of Balouch people we all know the Indian Involvement( I am privy to concrete evidence) in this (why else? have over a dozen consulates in Afghanistan) .
    You see its very easy to belittle someone else no matter how great they are , BUT it takes a bigger person to Respect show Humility and understanding to those struggling with a multitude of issues, this goes for both sides of the border ” Let him throw the first stone who has not sinned”.
    I apologize if any insult/disrespect given it was not intended.

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  • Akhter
    Nov 24, 2012 - 8:26PM

    @Observer: GP65 Blackjack and others
    If the purpose of Almost ALL Indian origin writers was to indulge in Pakistan Bashing at every opportunity you are doing a fine job! (some of us have a life and do not spend our entire waking hour thinking of espousing spiteful comments).
    On many forums i have welcomed your right to make insightful positive comments however almost all the blogs on ET are dominated by a few writers who have nothing better to do but to make inaccurate presumptions/statements about historical events that may or may not have occurred. The writer of this blog had raised some very valid points on how far we have come from the ideology of our founding fathers.
    In fact for your information GP65 The Hindu scriptures that Millions of Hindu’s live there life by today are thousands of years old, the Guru Granth sahib is a living embodiment of the words of Guru Nanak Jee, Millions of Sikhs live there life by his sacred words.
    The American constitution is based on the collective vision of its founding fathers so it does not mean they are stuck in the days of their founding fathers, furthermore if Gandhi Jee’s belief on non violence and tolerance are out dated in modern India then i guess lots of issues can also arise from this.
    Finally the above comments about Hindu minorities situation in Pakistan can also be compared to the residents of Assam or the Bodo tribes right to self determination or perhaps the massacre of Muslims in Bombay or perhaps the Muslims in Gujrat etc. But then in my view who am i to tell you how to treat your residents?, or how to run your country?.
    As far as Pakistan is concerned be it a Secular state/Islamic Republic/Caliphate. That is a question that only Pakistani’s can answer, Finally please stop quoting plight of Balouch people we all know the Indian Involvement( I am privy to concrete evidence) in this (why else? have over a dozen consulates in Afghanistan) .
    You see its very easy to belittle someone else no matter how great they are , BUT it takes a bigger person to Respect show Humility and understanding to those struggling with a multitude of issues, this goes for both sides of the border ” Let him throw the first stone who has not sinned”.

    Recommend

  • dr.sinha
    Nov 24, 2012 - 10:04PM

    @Prerna:

    I think you should just ignore this sicko who calls himself “Sultan”. I just happened to read his utterly unfair and unjust one-sided attacks against Bruteforce, mouthing foul and pathetically gutter language. He claims to be an educated man — I wonder.
    The best criterion for measuring any person’s level of education is intellectual honesty. Going to school — or worse still, a madrassah — does not make one “educated”. A healthy, common sense that sees fact from fiction, that sees right from wrong, that sees good from bad is an essential element for the development of the mind. When an Indian child goes to school, he is taught to be self-critical. When a Pakistani attends school, there is always the danger that his mind could be completely seized and corrupted by the fictionalized text books that are required to be read, distorting pages and chapters of history and culture that the partitioned piece of land called Pakistan shared with India. It’s sad but you cannot hold a proper dialogue with someone of the “calibre” of Sultan who was born and brought up under perfect conditions in the ‘land of the pure’. I wonder if the gentleman had any access to really educated Pakistanis who live abroad and who view their former country of birth in a different light. ..

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  • Prerna
    Nov 26, 2012 - 12:51AM

    @dr.sinha:

    I agree that someone like @Sultan is best ignored, and I am going to do just that.

    Whatever way the comments of @Sultan are looked at, they count as abuse – but the moderators at ET have fallen into the error of believing that being literate equals being educated and have allowed the comments of this person. Recommend

  • TraxRider
    Nov 26, 2012 - 5:58PM

    @Komal,
    You are right about the attitudes and proportion of elitists but two things led to the detriment of Pakistan/Indian Muslims (a) What KT discussed in his response, i.e., revulsion to western education by the middle and lower class (socio-economic) of Muslims (b) feudal system that the British installed to control vast regions of India. While India, on independence, dismantled fuedalism, it thrived in Pakistan with feudals forming a large part of the politics, establishment and the military elite. They had not gained their positions through fair competition but through mass subjugation which also gave them the advantage in politics with entire constituencies voting for them. Therefore they did not allow education and enlightenment spread in their localities as that would lead to their influence being reduced and they are clearly not geared for earning that influence. The elites that you refer to, at least the Muslim elites were the fuedals or traitors/collatorators in the 1857 War. The true elites were removed, imprisoned and/or exiled (best case scenario).

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