Pakistani Atheists and Agnostics take message online

Published: September 27, 2011

The website provides a forum for atheists to learn more about secularism.

To the Atheists and Agnostics of Pakistan – you are not alone

This statement is posted on the recently launched website of Pakistani Athiests and Agnostics (PAA), which describes itself as a “social organisation for atheists, agnostics and freethinkers of Pakistan.”

The website claims to be affiliated with Atheist Alliance International (AAI), an international community that aims to educate its members and the world at large about issues related to secularism and atheism.

Like its international counterpart, PAA hopes to promote the separation of state and religion and spread awareness about atheism by providing a forum for visitors and users who comment on the various blogs and articles posted on the site.

According to a report published in Pakistan Today, the site got more than 17,000 hits in a mere 48 hours after its launch from 95 countries, including Saudi Arabia.

The Press Trust of India reported last year that PAA was founded by Hazrat Nakhuda, a former Muslim and young computer programmer from Lahore. In a discussion on PAA’s closed Facebook page with the subject “How did you become an atheist” Nakhuda writes:

I used to be a practising Muslim. I used to live in Saudi Arabia. I have done two Hajs and countless Umrahs. Used to pray five times a day. When I turned 17-18, I realised that the only reason I was a Muslim was because my parents were Muslims.

The Facebook group currently has 644 members and applicants are told that their requests to join may not always be successful, with the simple statement:

If your profile does not show that you fit under the definition of the community title or if your profile is closed drop me a message. Otherwise i will not let you in.

Aek, a founder of PAA, says that almost two weeks went into designing and planning the project another went into coding and debugging. The website was tested for three days and major bugs were spotted and fixed.

on Twitter, become a fan on Facebook

Reader Comments (133)

  • A BELIEVER
    Sep 27, 2011 - 4:31PM

    INNALILAH E WA INA ALIAHAY RAJIOON!

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  • Seher
    Sep 27, 2011 - 4:34PM

    Quite interesting but alarming situation for the Muslims of the world.

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  • M Ali Khan
    Sep 27, 2011 - 4:39PM

    @A BELIEVER:
    Belief is accepting something you probably know isnt, nor can you prove is true

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  • Adil
    Sep 27, 2011 - 4:44PM

    One doesn’t have to be an athiest to be secular. Those who have even the slightest understanding of Islam know that Islam and secularism are fully compatible.

    As the Quran says …”To you be your religion, and to me mine”

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  • Sep 27, 2011 - 4:48PM

    It’s a great initiative. There are many non-religious citizens in Pakistan who find it difficult to reveal themselves as such out of fear of discrimination and even violence. Freedom of belief is an inviolable human right, and they shouldn’t be harassed for not believing what the Muslim majority believes.

    Religious people mustn’t feel disappointed or upset by the launch of this website, but take it as an opportunity to engage Atheists and Agnostics in a healthy dialogue through which we can all learn something.

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  • M Ali Khan
    Sep 27, 2011 - 4:50PM

    @Seher:
    if by “alarming situation” you mean more people are willing to question the beliefs of their forefathers and try to think outside the box and make better sense of the world without blindly following a favourite religion or sect, then you are well and truly right!

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  • Mustafa Hassan Malik
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:16PM

    Dear Atheists,
    We Muslims don’t need to prove anything, read Quran and you’ll find everything.

    Sicerely
    Practicing Muslims. :)

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  • Roflcopter
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:21PM

    website should be banned

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  • Rahul D B
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:24PM

    @Adil:
    Religion is never ever secular.
    Obviously the defenders of the faith don’t really agree with ”To you be your religion, and to me mine”. Reality is that a message of hate and separatism invigorates the passions of more people than a message of peace. This is the reason in practice the hate message finds popularity and are support more easily than the peaceful ones. This is not unique to any particular religion, it applies everywhere politicians and rulers want to incite passions, always go with the negative message for instant results.Recommend

  • Aneeta
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:26PM

    @ Atika err so? what’s your point?

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  • Pseudo free thinkers
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:29PM

    This page is set up by confused individuals who can’t make sense of their lives and perhaps think its cool to be atheist/agnostic and that depicts free thinking. If these guys were infact free thinkers and real liberals, confident upon secularism/atheism as the right ideology to lead life, then why have they blocked their page and closed it for public debate? Free thinkers never close the doors for free debate. Bunch of confused lads living in their own little worlds

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  • mfhussain
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:33PM

    Maybe there is hope yet for us in this land of the pure…

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  • Tom Melchiorre
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:34PM

    Congratulations on your group’s success. I look forward to working with you in helping your group progress and prosper.

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  • Eeman
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:42PM

    I’m a believer, but I fully welcome all kind of ideologies to take part in Pakistan. Counter-arguments, if convincing, play an important in letting you think outside your box. For me, all religions and ideologies should be preached alongside Islam. That’s the only way to built a genius Muslim community, which has its foundation in logic and analysis rather than in blind-belief and indoctrination.

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  • Adeel Ahmed
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:49PM

    @M Ali Khan: Read the Quran… you’ll get your answers… if you don’t, I can only pity you.

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  • Asaf
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:51PM

    So what??

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  • Aaliya
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:53PM

    At the (deliberate) risk of sounding naive .. Whats the big deal? So a few hundred of our fellow Pakistanis realise they want to be atheists … Have we forgotten ” there is no compulsion in religion” ..have we forgotten

    Read Surah Al Kafiroon and you will get the idea.Dear PAA Please freely express your beliefs without criticising ours! You do realise that you may highlight why you believe in aetheism..without trying to pick faults with the brand of Islam you were being forced to follow.

    We have enough problems in the country anyway..So i request everyone to calm down. Let them be. Lets be ourselves too.. lets focus on bigger issues such as national survival, integrity, peace, floods, impending famine.. Civility and coexistence.

    Heaven and Hell are not for us to decide anyway. Recommend

  • Sayyed Mehdi
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:53PM

    @Roflcopter and others who feel this should be banned

    Your hypocrisy has no limits. First, you claim to follow a religion that allows “freedom of religion” and then you talk about banning groups that are against your religion’s ideology.

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  • Arsalan
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:58PM

    Its a good initiative.. People, from all backgrounds, whether believers or non believers are welcomed to express their opinions and have their space in the country.. Lets debate, discuss and argue so that we could create some sense in our lives.. I would request all my Muslims friends to be tolerant and patient about this so that we could send the message of love, peace, justice and tolerance to everyone, which is exactly what Islam wants us to do.. I am sure if Prophet Muhammad were here today, He would have welcomed these people for debates and must have told everyone to treat them with the same respect as we treat out Muslim brothers and sisters..

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  • InfAxis
    Sep 27, 2011 - 5:59PM

    @Pseudo free thinkers

    Being a member of a group and a Pakistani, I can tell you that being born in a muslim family and then abandoning your faith is a crime in itself in Pakistan. Even if the written law doesn’t say anything about it, there will be countless mujahids ready to slit our throats in the hope for a plot in heaven. If it was only about open debate as you put it, it would be an open platform but as much as we love public debate, we also kinda like to not-die :).

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  • Kashif
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:01PM

    i am member of the group

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  • HHH
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:08PM

    i am member of this group too .Recommend

  • Bilal
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:11PM

    @Pseudo free thinkers:
    That is very well composed – bunch of confused lads ……………….

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  • ks
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:14PM

    God’s religion. God will care. Just Relax :)

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  • Ahmed Ilyas
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:15PM

    Stop marketing for this group… Stop this now.. Stop helping these people and their secular views.

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  • Ahmed Ilyas
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:17PM

    @Adeel Ahmed:

    Well said Adeel Ahmed……I also request these people to return to Islam while there is still time.

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  • Sheri
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:18PM

    Hey guys,
    I’m an Atheist. I have read many books and essays by Bertrand Russell and Richard Dawkins. But this does not mean that I do not respect Islam, Christianity or whatever. We all are humans in the end, are we not?

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  • Abdullah
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:21PM

    Ms.Atika! Are you sharing the news or supporting the idea?

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  • Tom Melchiorre, Editor, Secular World Magazine
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:35PM

    In a country where being an apostate may result in death, a closed/invitation-only FB page is a wise precaution.

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  • SUPERB
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:38PM

    The shameful act is now open. Pakistan has no room for such activities and ET must restrain such articles.

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  • Danish
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:44PM

    So we are not seeing frequent online Ads like “World Last Chance” and “Scientology” without any reason. A huge money is definitely being invested to make this world completely secular and without any religion. Guess what! If that happens there will be NO Restrictions on you. You will be free to drink more Wine, rape all beautiful girls and kill all those people you don’t really like. Indeed, free thinkers do not really “think” :)

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  • Saad Khan
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:50PM

    This article proves that tribune blog walk the talk.

    I admire Atika’s bravery for bringing this under the attention of other suppressed atheists around Pakistan.

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  • Sayyed Mehdi
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:51PM

    @Ahmed Ilyas:

    I should turn to Islam while there is still time? Do you think I really have the choice of belief? I challenge you to think of a single belief that you can consciously choose to change.

    I’m an atheist, and I don’t have a choice. Just as you don’t have the choice of being a Hindu or Christian.

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  • Rehman Iqbal
    Sep 27, 2011 - 6:58PM

    I really admire athiests (especially pakistani ones) for being so brave and open about their beliefs in this theocratic state. I would ask athiests to include other people like gays whose beliefs/lifestyle in Pakistan arouse same kind hatred from mainstream.

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  • Ash
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:00PM

    it’s sad, but this is true. My own friends are agnostics. I didn’t think that there were many in Pakistan, but now I know. We should all keep faith against the non-believers!
    Inna lillahi wa inna elaehi raajioon.

    But please, fellow Muslims, remember that we are all human. We can show displeasure, but we cannot start condemning them. These people are our friends and family. You may not know it, but they all walk among us. We are Muslims first, then Pakistanis. Being a Muslims means you are tolerant. We must stay tolerant and united.

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  • arjun sharma
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:02PM

    In my personal view there is no one who is atheist or nonbeliever.Actually everyone is real seekers who wish to know and feel personal realisation of existence ofGod/Allah/Parmeshwar or whatever name He is called.The more rationality and individual wisdom increases with the passage of time people try to understand and evaluate all sorts of external forms of worship and its utility in actual realisation in present life and they also evaluate those persons who are intensively attached to the worship and preaching of God.But their life and understanding about the existence of Allah and realisation doesnot satisfy the seekers ,they completely reject the prevalent form of ecternal worship calling them merely a riyual and nothing more.people starts calling them atheist or non believers.

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  • Noor
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:04PM

    It is only religion that tells you how to lead your life;
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  • Ali
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:05PM

    Good for you if you’re a Muslim. Not everyone wants to be. And no, not every atheist wants to be “cool” or is plotting to “tAkE oVeRz Da PaKiStAn!” Some of us just can’t be convinced that the supernatural exists.

    Just get on with your lives and let others do the same.Recommend

  • Saleem Khan
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:11PM

    people who think religion gives you morality are absurd.Recommend

  • khawar kazmi
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:15PM

    i think these atheist are the blessing from God to theists.to be a better theist , you need to be a better atheist first.these people come with a different argument against God everytime , when these questions are replied by intellectuals , our faith gets strengthened further.we own almost all of our knowledge not to those who have agreed , but to those who have differed.

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  • WhatsInAName
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:28PM

    And then we want to know why we are lagging behind. Now this thought has taken the form of an organisations.

    We have the time and money to protest lame causes such as a long march, come out as a huge crowd against the local bodies system, raise hue and cry against electricity shortage. Cry over Aata shortage.

    How can we propser when we put our political agenda in front, when we consider our economy more important, when luxuries and food items become important than denying the existence of One God.

    May Allah guide us to the true path.

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  • InfAxis
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:34PM

    @Danish

    Dude, if you seriously think that being an atheist makes you a rapist and a murderer, you need to seriously educate yourself. Ameer of pakistan’s largest religious party has publicly said that if a girl gets raped, she should keep quiet and move on. And senseless murders in the name of religion is something you’ve probably heard of before. Am I right? Now compare that to countries like Sweden (85% of population is non-believer) and Japan (65%). How many rapes and murders have you seen happening there? Remember, Japan is the same country where after the earthquake police was having trouble finding the rightful owners of the lost money people had turned in instead of just keeping it. Would that happen in Pakistan? I doubt! I can’t defend all atheists since you can’t defend all muslims either since there are good and bad people everywhere but think about it. Most non-believers take their morality to another level. They don’t do good and refrain from bad because they will be rewarded or punished. They do it just the way it is. No desire of heaven, no fear of hell, just the pure feeling of content that comes from inside after doing a good deed. But you won’t get it.

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  • Bela
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:41PM

    @ Danish
    Are you saying that no women in Pakistan are raped as this is an Islamic state? Oh, or are you saying that the Taliban are secularists (Not Muslims) and that is why they kill innocent people including women and children?

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  • Rational Being
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:47PM

    “Pakistan has no room for such activities”
    No room for sane minded people ?
    No room for people who realize that superstitions and myths are not the way to a better world ?

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  • Adil
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:50PM

    There you go…another attempt to project the ‘soft’ image of Pakistan…

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  • Komal
    Sep 27, 2011 - 7:51PM

    It is awesome to see this, and hope the atheist community in Pakistan is able to express itself more freely and achieves at least one of its goals: a secular Pakistan. I am not an atheist myself (though I used to be, and even a member of PAA, or at least an organization with the same name), but I still support the atheist community of Pakistan. Hopefully other theists will join me in doing the same?

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  • Gullible Nomore
    Sep 27, 2011 - 8:05PM

    I don’t get this, why are people so threatened by a web site created by some freethinkers in a country of 180 million? All the Muslims should know that not all of those 180million people are Muslims or want to be Muslims. They are as Pakistanis as anyone else in this great land of ours and have every right to create websites; communities; get-togethers or what not . Rest assured we are no threat to Islam in Pakistan.

    By the way a Proud member of the group!

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  • Sayyed Mehdi
    Sep 27, 2011 - 8:28PM

    Oh I just noticed a typo in the headline.

    It’s “Atheists” not “Athiests”.

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  • shahid
    Sep 27, 2011 - 8:52PM

    It had to happen one day. Thanks to extremists, people are now willing to bring in open which they avoided out of fear or respect.

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  • Zeff
    Sep 27, 2011 - 8:57PM

    Its good to see a diversifying opinion in Pakistan. Let one believe what he wants to believe not what you want him to believe. If you’re afraid of Islam being damaged due to people turning athiests, then the problem is in your head and how much faith you have in Islam itself. I pity such fellow believers who relate diverging opinions to ”hurting the image of Islam” when they themselves are drowned in corruption, lawlesness and perversion.

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  • Mj
    Sep 27, 2011 - 9:02PM

    @Danish:
    “Guess what! If that happens there will be NO Restrictions on you. You will be free to drink more Wine, rape all beautiful girls and kill all those people you don’t really like. Indeed, free thinkers do not really “think” :)”

    If only religion is holding you back from killing and raping then, I am sorry to say, you are a terrible person.

    I would like to direct your attention to a couple of vids:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxdgCxK4VUA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCL63d66frs

    There’s also a brilliant talk by Sam Harris at TED
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj9oB4zpHww

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  • Sep 27, 2011 - 9:34PM

    WhatsInaName,
    Lol. We’re lagging behind because of Atheists? Someone obviously forgot to tell that to countries like Sweden, New Zealand, Japan, Switzerland etc, all developed nations with majority of their populations being Atheist or at least non-religious, and believers in a secular form of government. I wonder how these countries operate without religion teaching them how to sit, stand, eat, drink, pray, talk…

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  • Sep 27, 2011 - 9:40PM

    Though a li’l upset because it means a co-religionist rejected what was a shared tenet in basic faith and beliefs of salvation, I’m not surprised nor outraged and lay the blame elsewhere. When our Muslim people and governments continue to wallow in ignorance and intolerance and lead in examples of injustice then this becomes an expected result. Some people will simply not be able to distinguish beliefs from practitioners. Recommend

  • narayana murthy
    Sep 27, 2011 - 9:43PM

    It’s unbelievably cruel of Pakistan to impose an ideology on everybody.

    It’s inhuman and in my opinion, equivalent to slavery.

    I’m an atheist. I openly claim this in India. India, which has always been a free country never questions me, except for a couple of maniacs.Recommend

  • Sep 27, 2011 - 9:44PM

    Those who suggest reading the Quran is enough to atheists, really don’t help in convincing them from anything different, as it’s nothing more than a simple dismissal, an intellectual cop out. Considering there’s so many sects, different scholars and interpretations of even the most tiniest of verses, and the whole issue of contemporary times from evolution, to bio-ethics, to online privacy, state rights and public government services, financial institutions, etc, there’s a lot of unresolved questions and a lot to learn.

    Even the Rasool (SAW) encouraged his followers to go as far as the Far East to seek knowledge. Otherwise he would have suggested only the Quran, which he didn’t. Recommend

  • Ahmed Ilyas
    Sep 27, 2011 - 9:56PM

    @Sayyed Mehdi:

    Every one has a choice to decide what they want to follow and I have a free choice to decide what i want to follow… and i chose to follow Islam…. you should try to understand islam as well and walk the true path

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  • Ahmed Ilyas
    Sep 27, 2011 - 9:59PM

    check the comments on their website… they are spreading hatred against islam, Allah and our prophet (P.B.U.H)….. i request these people to remove such comments when there is still time.

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  • Umair Ali Rashid
    Sep 27, 2011 - 10:04PM

    It’s funny to see how most people on this forum are equating atheism with secularism.

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  • Sayyed Mehdi
    Sep 27, 2011 - 10:10PM

    @Ahmed Ilyas

    To convince me otherwise, please convert to Hinduism with all your heart for one day, and I will believe you.

    But you cannot do that. Sure, you can attend Hindu rituals and act Hindu, but Inside, you will always know that Islam is correct. You can never “choose” to embrace Hinduism at will. You’re a Muslim, and you don’t have a choice.Recommend

  • Malik Waqas Tariq
    Sep 27, 2011 - 10:15PM

    World had not came into existence without any creature just like a Chair , a Car , a Bed even a humen being ….. so there is some one who is controlling this world …..

    bring this Hazrat Nakhuda to me i will prove this to him …… there is some one there is really

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  • Zeeshan
    Sep 27, 2011 - 10:28PM

    I don’t mind you being an atheist as long as you don’t spew venom against religion or religious people or for that matter Pakistan’s rejection of a Godless society. This is my simple rule.

    The problem with these atheists is that they were bred with the strange idea that they are the only thinkers and rationale people around (listen carefully on how they structured their answers and when they attacked religion and religious people). These supremacists, arming themselves with the constructed knowledge called science and philosophy, tend to hector at religious people that “secularism” is the only way for peace, justice and prosperity. In the typical fashion of atheists, the PAA include in its FAQ that Sweden is a great example of a moral society. Perhaps what these short sighted figures failed to comprehend is that Sweden is an ethnonationalist nation with a small population. The example these atheists should bring up is Soviet Union where Muslims suffered the most. The persecution of Muslims under the Soviet Union’s atheists deserved to be brought to the forefront again because atheists tend to resort to “science” to make their case of “emancipating” the masses from “its opium” while ignoring the path they once tried and failed miserably. Soviet Muslims, from Albania to Kazakhstan, are coming back to the fold of Islam.

    Secondly, as an atheist, what place do you have in Pakistan, in an overwhelmingly religious society? The very idea of Pakistan contradicts your “belief” system now. Some Indians and Westerners will have a lot of “admiration” for you and consider you as the “good Pakistanis” among “the rotten fundamentalists that make most of Pakistan” but I take great offence that you are using the name Pakistan to create the boundary for your organization. A simple anology would be: imagine Muslims in Europe created a group called Dutch Sharia lovers, can you imagine the uproar among Dutch? That organization would be placed under the scrutiny of the armed forces and attacked for challenging the very fabric of the Netherlands.

    As someone who holds much of the cultural capital that most of you atheists would brag about, I am curious on why while you are so eager to question the “faith of your forefathers”, you are incapable of questioning the many bricks and layers (from science to philosphy) that structured your rejection of religion.

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  • Dodo
    Sep 27, 2011 - 10:29PM

    @Ahmed Ilyas:
    There is still time to what?

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  • antiq
    Sep 27, 2011 - 10:34PM

    so whats’s the point?
    i mean let them do whatsoever they want to
    choosing a religion or not is actually a thought
    and every person has the civil right of freedom of thought
    you yourself have faith in your God and let others in theirs

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  • Aamir
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:07PM

    I believe in Islam, I am not going to hurt anyone who does not.

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  • Zalim Singh
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:09PM

    @ Mustafa Hassan Malik

    prey tell us what is it tht you found???

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  • Altaf
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:11PM

    I have seen many anti-Islamic comments from users which got many hits.

    We don’t need such FAKE BOGUS news. If there is any atheist, come on tv.Recommend

  • Dr. Salim
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:26PM

    @Adil: Right said my brother. Unfortunately lot many western countries do not know about this of Islam. But we are to blame for it. Since there is a far majority of muslims who do not treat people from other mazhabb equally. Take the example of any Arabic society. If you are non muslim you are not even allowed to walk the street during certain religious ceremony. People of other religion has different dress code and some islamic countries force them to put hijab or burqa even if those females are driving. We are hypocritical when other nations ban the use of veil but we force their women to follow our cultural code. None of these is preached in Islam but have no idea what happened to Allah ke bandey log that we lost sanity and in HIS holly name started culture of rigidness, arrogance and intolerance against people of other religion. We see anybody who is non muslim as kaffur. While the true meaning of kaffur in Quran is not to demonize people of other religion but points to people who does not follow basic moral conduct of the society and who have no respect of human values. Were efficiently our immams and mullahs changed the meaning of kaffur to hindu jews and christians. So tell me my brother. Where and why did this important message of “To you be your religion, and to me mine” got lost. And why would anybody think that secularism and Islam has anything in common ?

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  • Zalim Singh
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:40PM

    @ Zeeshan

    do u mean in Pakistan atehists are not allowed? should they be forcibly made to practice Islam? Are you sane?

    If you want to force [people follow your religion, you might as well call it a cult, not a religion.

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  • Mj
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:42PM

    @Altaf:

    “We don’t need such FAKE BOGUS news. If there is any atheist, come on tv.”

    You know how deranged and fanatical some (in fact many) people are regarding their faith. Would you come on TV if it meant incoming death warrants and fatwas?

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  • Fahad Raza
    Sep 27, 2011 - 11:55PM

    I see mega looser congregating there…

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  • Mir Agha
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:00AM

    I’m an agnostic person, and sad to say interacting with these few persons was a disappointment. Amateurs, polemics, and reactionaries to say the least. No room for free thought in their minds. Subjective thinkers parroting around nonsense. Actually come to think of it, not unlike the Muslim version of these self-described geniuses: the Taliban.

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  • Adil
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:02AM

    @Dr. Salim:
    The true message got lost because the unworthy ignorant obscurantist mullahs got hold of Islam. And the same would have happened to any discipline, where the teachers weren’t fit to comprehend, analyse and impart its principles in a clear manner.

    For those who question Islam’s message of peace and secularism, i would only ask them to read its Holy Book instead of looking at what Muslims do or their mullahs preach…

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  • Gullible Nomore
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:13AM

    @Mj:
    No thanks! We value our lives and the lives of our loved ones more than the religious zealots. Because hey, this is the only life you and I are ever going to get. :)

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  • Truthbetold
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:16AM

    Atheists and Agnostics are simply people with no self belief. These people look to ascribe to the concept of having no single belief because just as they are incapable of trusting themselves, or truly, any other human being, they find solace in the thought that everything before and after them is a non existent void.. this void helps them feel better about themselves.

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  • Truthbetold
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:17AM

    @Pseudo free thinkers:
    right on man

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  • Truthbetold
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:21AM

    @Tom Melchiorre:
    Thats just the problem with you westerners…
    you think the whole world is your responsibility… you expect societies to evolve the way you feel they should.

    Your civilization, nationalism, imperialism and even fascism is proof of how and where you’ve failed as a collection of races

    Guess what? no one wants your opinion around here— bugger off

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  • Truthbetold
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:23AM

    @Aaliya:
    no… the point is, find any belief system..
    and atheist or agnostic is a person who either does not believe in anything or simply says that he or she cannot prove that belief. Its a cowardly way to run away from believing in anything but ourselves, Don’t be Muslim by all means… follow your heart, but follow it somewhere…

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  • Truthbetold
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:27AM

    @Arsalan:
    we’re okay with freedom. just not okay with people preaching crap to everyone using these
    platforms, including immature minors etc. be responsible. Make a little group and privately sit and preach to each other about how you have nothing to believe in. The person who wrote this piece on a public forum is just propagating YOUR version of events. YOU are a hypocrite because while you don’t have a belief system, you spend your time preaching to others that they should have none either

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  • Ahmed Ilyas
    Sep 28, 2011 - 12:50AM

    @Sayyed Mehdi:

    you dont even make sense… lol.. i am muslim by choice…

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  • Dodo
    Sep 28, 2011 - 1:15AM

    @Truthbetold:
    Oh right, and what do you call the tableeghi jamaats? Who knock on my door while i’m enjoying my dinner with my family to ask me to come with them to the masjid? THAT is ok but a bunch of non-believers maintaining their website is wrong? Its shameful to even use the word “double standard” here.

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  • Mj
    Sep 28, 2011 - 1:53AM

    @Aamir:
    “I believe in Islam, I am not going to hurt anyone who does not.”

    I would have been great if the majority of people in the country had this stance of not hurting others over their beliefs. But as it stands, 76% (equating to more than 100+ million) of Pakistani Muslim are in favor of death for those who leave the religion (which they did not choose for themselves!)

    Source:Pew Global Survey http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-13.png

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  • Observer
    Sep 28, 2011 - 1:54AM

    @Adil:
    “One doesn’t have to be an athiest to be secular.”

    Agree

    “Those who have even the slightest understanding of Islam know that Islam and secularism are fully compatible.”

    I suggest you do more research and objective independent studies before making such erroneous conclusions.

    “As the Quran says …”To you be your religion, and to me mine””

    If you do some research, you will find that the meaning is exactly the opposite of what you imply. The Prophet told this to the polytheist in disgust after they refused to accept his demands.

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  • B
    Sep 28, 2011 - 1:54AM

    So it takes me to question,

    Who created the sun moon earth the universes the complex form of humans plants and animals? It is all by pure accident. Coincidence?

    In my opinion There is God. People may have different views of that God.

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  • Mj
    Sep 28, 2011 - 1:56AM

    @Truthbetold:

    “Guess what? no one wants your opinion around here— bugger off”

    Who are you to decide if someone is welcome to voice their opinion or not? If you wan’t to live inside an echo-chamber then you are welcome to do so.

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  • Kafirah
    Sep 28, 2011 - 2:04AM

    @Truthbetold
    .
    These people look to ascribe to the concept of having no single belief because just as they are incapable of trusting themselves, or truly, any other human being
    .
    Please keep the psychology to yourself, thanks.
    .
    we’re okay with freedom. just not okay with people preaching crap to everyone using these
    platforms, including immature minors etc. be responsible.

    .
    So apparently, you’re allowed to indoctrinate a child from the very moment it is born, feed it with whatever storytales (or, if you prefer, “crap”) you were brought up with, traumatise and instil in it the terrible fear of a Great Boogeyman who will burn him or her in a dark pit forever if they sin, and then cause him or her to feel a fake superiority over every person who doesn’t follow your particular cult…
    .

    You can do all that, and yet call us irresponsible for making a site discussing rationality that is accessible to “minors”. On the contrary, my dear, I find you irresponsible for forcing your views on your children before they are even able to think for themselves, or make a rational choice otherwise. All children should be brought up as atheists until they are at least 18, when they are old enough to rationally “choose” a religion. imho.
    .
    Then we’ll see how many of them “choose” to do so :P

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  • Faction
    Sep 28, 2011 - 2:14AM

    God bless the atheists of Pakistan!!

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  • Sep 28, 2011 - 3:11AM

    @everyone…
    I am the person referred to in that article. I head the organization.
    I am getting this vibe from a lot of the comments above… about how bad this is. Why? Pakistan has Christians, Hindus, Ahmedis etc. What is precisely wrong is saying that you don’t believe in God. And what should one do if one doesn’t. I mean if something actually doesn’t make sense to you and the evidence suggests that it isn’t right. then why blame me for not believing in it?

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  • Sep 28, 2011 - 3:42AM

    it was about time… nothing wrong with the freedom to question and think whatever one feels like

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  • Sep 28, 2011 - 3:50AM

    Hurray for the Atheists and Agnostics! They will lead the world into the light.

    Why should Pakistanis have a problem with them? After all, their best friends, the Chinese are the ultimate atheists – they only believe in themselves and not in imaginary “gods” or so-called divine books. And good for them..

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  • abhilash
    Sep 28, 2011 - 10:11AM

    @SUPERB:
    Wht you will do?…kill them

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  • The real Truthbetold
    Sep 28, 2011 - 10:27AM

    @Zeeshan:

    “Secondly, as an atheist, what place do you have in Pakistan, in an overwhelmingly religious society? The very idea of Pakistan contradicts your “belief” system now.”

    There! So do you think atheists, Agnostics, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and other faiths do not have a placed in Pakistan? Isn’t this religious bigotry, intolerance and denial of basic human rights in this 21st century?

    “imagine Muslims in Europe created a group called Dutch Sharia lovers, can you imagine the uproar among Dutch?”

    You miss the point. In the west and other civilized societies, you are indeed permitted to have such organizations, build mosques and practice Islam; but, the problem arises only when this group starts imposing their practices on the rest of the society or resort to terrorism. In contrast, can a person openly leave Islam and live to see the next day? I am sure you are aware of the apostasy and blasphemy laws in Pakistan,

    “I am curious on why while you are so eager to question the “faith of your forefathers”, you are incapable of questioning the many bricks and layers (from science to philosphy) that structured your rejection of religion.”

    Isn’t that a rather arrogant statement? What makes you think people who reject religion haven’t done so only after considerable rational examination and contemplation? On the other hand, did you make such an effort before you became a Muslim? By the way, the forefathers of most Muslims in South Asia were Hindus for thousands of years.

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  • Sep 28, 2011 - 12:31PM

    Truthbetold: “Don’t be Muslim by all means… follow your heart, but follow it somewhere…”

    We believe in humanity. That’s enough for us.

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  • Jes
    Sep 28, 2011 - 2:33PM

    Support to all rational thinkers world wide. May you be safe to think freely and to speak freely without violence forever more! May we all be unfettered from fear and dogma. May the light of science and reason once more improve the lot of all peoples. We are truly one.

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  • faraz
    Sep 28, 2011 - 2:37PM

    Although I am a believer, but I always wonder that suppose if a person honestly studies a religion and decides not to adopt it, then should he burn in hell just because he wasn’t convinced by that set of beliefs?

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  • narayana murthy
    Sep 28, 2011 - 4:36PM

    @Truthbetold

    I’m a very popular person in India. Narayana Murthy is just a pseudonym. I’m an atheist. I have achieved great success in India. Do you think it was possible because I have no self belief?

    Look around the world and wake up. Most educated, honest, successful people are all atheists.Recommend

  • Osama
    Sep 28, 2011 - 4:56PM

    This is an alarming situation….the Pakistani Media should be ashamed of what they are trying to promote in an Islamic State…..Recommend

  • Sep 28, 2011 - 5:14PM

    @Ahmed Ilyas
    Says
    ” i request these people to remove such comments when there is still time.”
    Are you threatening with you zealotry? How much time is left before you get
    into action.

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  • Anthony Permal
    Sep 28, 2011 - 5:16PM

    @SUPERB:

    How is being an atheist a ‘shameful’ act?

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  • Anthony Permal
    Sep 28, 2011 - 5:18PM

    @Danish:

    Are you saying there is no rape in Pakistan because there is religion there?

    Make up your mind, you seem a bit confused.Recommend

  • Sep 28, 2011 - 5:20PM

    I’m a practicing Muslim. And even though the idea of a Muslim being a former Muslim saddens me, I see no reason to hate the organization. Ideological differences are always present in every society, and so should they be. Islam does not seek to force a frame of thought upon anyone – it is of an individuals own choosing. Let the believers believe, and lets try to persuade the disbelievers, in contrast to persecuting them.

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  • Wasim
    Sep 28, 2011 - 5:26PM

    The vision of Atheists is limited to worldly affairs. What after death. Please tell me the exact definition of death. Medicine has provided 200 definitions of death but not one is perfect. How does a baby starts moving in the womb of his mother? What is life? They won’t know all this.. This site is just another platform for Islamophobic “patients” to vent their frustration. Secularism & egalitarianism is just a facade,their actual aim is just to defame Islam. God bless them with sanity !

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  • Mj
    Sep 28, 2011 - 5:42PM

    @Osama:
    Of course, the media shouldn’t report anything in the country, so we can continue sweeping things under the rug which makes us (read: you) uncomfortable and we can live happily ever after!

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  • Sayyed Mehdi
    Sep 28, 2011 - 6:06PM

    @faraz

    Thank you for that. This is exactly what I want to know. After a reassessment, Islam never convinced me, and hence I simply cannot believe in it. I don’t have the choice of believing in it. And I don’t see why God would want to send me to hell for this.

    I simply don’t get why people can’t understand this simple fact.

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  • Masterdebater
    Sep 28, 2011 - 6:37PM

    So we are not seeing frequent online Ads like “World Last Chance” and “Scientology” without any reason. A huge money is definitely being invested to make this world completely secular and without any religion. Guess what! If that happens there will be NO Restrictions on you. You will be free to drink more Wine, rape all beautiful girls and kill all those people you don’t really like. Indeed, free thinkers do not really “think” :)

    Uh, yeah no. In a country without religion law still exists, ethics and morality exist regardless of the existence or absence of a religious doctrine. Danish, I’m afraid you’re the only one that doesn’t ‘think’ or has ever in his/her life :)

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  • Sep 28, 2011 - 6:56PM

    Always remember that you can never truly believe in God unless you also have the freedom to disbelief. By threatening ex-Muslims with death, you turn religion into an obligatory burden rather than something you follow by choice. And by that you’re not doing your religion any favours.

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  • narayana murthy
    Sep 28, 2011 - 7:07PM

    @Wasim says “The vision of Atheists is limited to worldly affairs. What after death. Please tell me the exact definition of death. Medicine has provided 200 definitions of death but not one is perfect. How does a baby starts moving in the womb of his mother? What is life? They won’t know all this.”

    True. I don’t know this. So do you. You don’t know either, what happens after death. But I am brave enough to acknowledge it and face it like a man. You are a coward and hence need some meaningless explanation like hell or heaven, which has never been proved by anyone.

    Do you know if Prophet Mohammad went to Heaven after death? How do you know? Who told you?

    If it’s just a belief with no proof, then there can’t be a bigger blockhead than yourself.Recommend

  • Dodo
    Sep 28, 2011 - 7:30PM

    @Wasim:
    And you have all the answers with solid scientifically verifiable proofs about an afterlife and life itself? You can’t even agree on which day to celebrate Eid on and you’re pointing fingers at science?

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  • Bela
    Sep 28, 2011 - 8:47PM

    When I read the Quran with translation the first time, I realized Shiaism and Sunnism were both wrong. The second time I read the translation I tried finding something to keep believing as a Muslim. Third time I read the translation of the Quran I started finding contradictions in it. So, I moved to the Bible and then to other religions and realized they weren’t much different either. By that time I came to the conclusion that the idea of god is nothing but the fear of the unknown in the bewildered mind of a human. And religion for many is like a psychedelic drug, they are addicted to it and therefore lash out at anybody who is against this drug like a heroin addict lashes out at the first mention of rehab.Recommend

  • I hussain
    Sep 28, 2011 - 9:03PM

    @Sayyed Mehdi:

    Wonderful argument. All atheists should be given the room to practise their beliefs in Pakistan. I am confused and being on the verge of becoming a “atheist”. Technoloy has given us the opportunity to express our pent-up views in a free environment.

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  • Observer
    Sep 28, 2011 - 10:59PM

    @Absar Shah:

    I agree with your post except the lines:

    “….. lets try to persuade the disbelievers..”

    Do you see the inherent air of dogmatism, falalcy and bigotry in such statements? Why should it be anyone’s business to PERSUADE anyone else to embrace their faith? Shouldn’t faith be a very personal endeavor between oneself and his maker? Why this assumed dogma of superiority and absolutism with your faith?

    So, as the first part of your message said, let others be. Let them seek their own faith/non-faith on their own volition.

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  • Zeeshan
    Sep 29, 2011 - 12:14AM

    I posted a reply to the self-proclaimed “truthtobetold”. Where is it? Please don’t tell me you need censor it given how many anti-Muslim and anti-Islam comments posted by liberals and Indians alike are allowed to exist here.

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  • SABA ALI
    Sep 29, 2011 - 12:48AM

    we as pakistanis should accept the people who change religions either they become muslims or non muslims

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  • Gullible Nomore
    Sep 29, 2011 - 1:09AM

    Let me be absolutely clear here. Atheism is not a BELIEF System!! Its lack of a belief; its based on scientific facts and rationality. Religion is about beliefs not atheism so please stop confusing atheism with some kind of a religion. Thank you very much!

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  • Sheikh Raza
    Sep 29, 2011 - 3:27AM

    I disapprove of what you say, but i will defend to the death your right to say it : welcome on the floor guys Go ahead :)

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  • Observer
    Sep 29, 2011 - 5:03AM

    @Truthbetold:

    But, you are not really speaking the truth though you may think you are. You are merely regurgitating what you have been taught from childhood. As for atheists and agnostics, capability/incapability to trust anyone has nothing to do with their philosophy. They are atheists only after a long period of study, self-analysis, logical enquiry and contemplation. The most important part is that they CHOSE to be atheists. How much of this logical and rational enquiry and contemplation do people with religious faith engage in before accepting their faith? Let’s admit it. If you were born in other families with other religious faith, you would have been a Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist and so on.

    The problem with revealed religions is that they think they alone have the absolute truth! I am not trying to shoot down anyone’s faith but question their arrogance and insistence that their religion is superior and absolute. How many Muslims study other religious faith in depth? Isn’t it forbidden to you to study other faiths even for a scholarly pursuit? If you don’t do an objective and logical comparative study, how would you know your faith is the correct one? For example, can you name three spiritual (not rituals) revelations in your faith that had not already been known in other older religions?

    Lastly, why do you have to have edicts on apostasy and blasphemy if your religion is so flawless and contains logically irrefutable truth?

    Why try to shoot down the atheists? If you are so secure in your belief why not engage with them in a scholarly debate and prove them wrong? Wouldn’t that be the best way to prove the “superiority” of your faith?

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  • FJ
    Sep 29, 2011 - 9:25AM

    I wonder whats the big deal about it !! if a bunch of people do not believe in something its their right to choose and no one can force them to !!
    we should be mature enough to understand that we cant chain everyone with the religion
    i wonder when would we start fixing ourselves instead of criticizing what others r doing..Recommend

  • FJ
    Sep 29, 2011 - 9:29AM

    and dont we have enough hatred in our society already that we r picking on what people believe in … half of the problems of this country will end if we keep our religion at home and just be good human beings … live and let live

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  • Sep 29, 2011 - 9:59AM

    Who is funding them?

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  • kashan
    Sep 29, 2011 - 10:31AM

    Astagfirrullah.

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  • islooboy
    Sep 29, 2011 - 10:50AM

    the greeks were athiests too

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  • KolachiMom
    Sep 29, 2011 - 11:44AM

    I approve!

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  • Haroon
    Sep 29, 2011 - 12:29PM

    my religion is humanity. Its of no use to be a muslim if you r not a good human being..

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  • Haroon
    Sep 29, 2011 - 12:43PM

    enough of this endless debate. Just believe in humanity and try to b a good human being first..

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  • waqqas iftikhar
    Sep 29, 2011 - 2:07PM

    do you have to a bonafide atheist or agnostic to be a part of the discussion on their page? what if you arent completely one or the other?

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  • GetRidOfFeudalPolitics
    Sep 29, 2011 - 2:09PM

    Good initiative. But keep atheism separate from secularism. You will obviously take time to find your place in Pakistan. But secularism cannot wait.

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  • member
    Sep 29, 2011 - 3:37PM

    @Moise:

    Can’t help but trying to find a foreign hand or conspiracy angle, eh? Do you think Pakistanis are incapable of reasoning and independent thought? Deal with it. They exist.

    @waqqas iftikhar:
    Everyone is welcome for debate and discussions regardless of theistic background.

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  • lmran
    Sep 29, 2011 - 6:31PM

    To the muslims of this group how could you be so illogical ?read the Quran,how can you deny the exsistance of your creator?aBook 1400yrs old explaining to you your creation which only recently embryologist, with very sophisticated instruments,came to know .The stages of an embryo is so beautifully mentioned that only the people of knowledge of that field can appreciate like professor kiethe moore and many other embryologist have said that the source of this Book Quran could only be a Divine source.Another fact in the Quran is that every living thing is made of water.Imagine how could a man(Mohammed pbuh) living in a desert guess water,the least thing found in deserts 1400yrs back.there are hundreds of scientific facts in the Quran to reflect upon.One of the miracles of Quran are its scientific facts.so muslims of this group do not get trapped use reason and logic.Put the Quran and the Hadith to the test of astronomy,embryology,geology,oceonology,metrology,psycology etc.All this knowledge could not be a matter of chance.Creation of this universe and you cannot be by chance.The bad deeds of mankind cannot be attributed to religion ,it is our own and satans handiwork.We are here in this world for a test.Do not fail yourselves.Think,think,think.

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  • member
    Sep 29, 2011 - 10:03PM

    @lmran:
    “a Book 1400yrs old explaining to you your creation which only recently embryologist, with very sophisticated instruments,came to know .The stages of an embryo is so beautifully mentioned that only the people of knowledge of that field can appreciate”

    I would like to direct your attention to this video: Link

    Kidly watch it with an open mind. It does the point you’ve raised more justice than I could.

    “The stages of an embryo is so beautifully mentioned that only the people of knowledge of that field can appreciate like professor kiethe moore and many other embryologist have said that the source of this Book Quran could only be a Divine source”

    If the esteemed Keith Moore was so sure of Quran’s divinity and scientific accuracy, then why did he not convert? Or a simpler explanation is that he was working at a Saudi university and the charm of riyals was too much at the cost of professional integrity, similar to Dr. Maurice Bucaille.

    Link for further reading. Scroll down to read up on Keith Moore.

    “Put the Quran and the Hadith to the test of astronomy,embryology,geology,oceonology,metrology,psycology etc.”

    Assuming that you have watched the first video with an open mind, TheRationalizer (link) does a good job of explaining the scientific “miracles” in the Quran. If you’ve gotten this far, might as well get some information of other supposed miracles. Link

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  • waqqas iftikhar
    Sep 30, 2011 - 10:59AM

    @member, good to know that….look forward to chatting to you guys on your views.

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  • Oct 2, 2011 - 7:16PM

    @member:
    No transparency in finances means organization is dubious.

    As for agnostics and other out-growths in times of subversion is nothing new. As for so called independent thought, anything designed by man’s ego is doomed from the word go.

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  • Oct 5, 2011 - 2:04PM

    @Moise:
    I am the head of the organization. Transparency in finances? What do you mean? What little finances are needed members contribute.

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  • The Right Left
    Oct 5, 2011 - 7:18PM

    Atheists:

    Do not want to convert everyone to their beliefs.
    Dont care if you have a different opinion.
    Dont burn down religious prayer houses of others.
    Dont blow up schools.
    Dont behead people in the name of God.
    Dont start wars with others.
    Are not hateful towards others.
    Dont grow beards to please GOD.
    Love all mankind.

    From a former Pakistani, Sunni, Shafei, JUI member. Recommend

  • Prometheus
    Oct 10, 2011 - 11:42PM

    This atheism thing isn’t a shining star on our heads. What it does represent though is that there are people who have the ability to think and choose for themselves. Too many in the land of the pure are sheep adhering to traditions without ever knowing the logic behind them.

    Kudos for all you brave people. Keep thinking and never let your passion for thought die.

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