Afghanistan won't allow proxy India-Pakistan war: Karzai
Speaking in New Delhi, Karzai angrily rejected warnings by his one-time counterpart in Islamabad Pervez Musharraf that India and Pakistan could coopt allies among Afghanistan's main ethnic groups to effectively wage war against each other, saying such claims were "hurtful".
"Of course Afghanistan will not allow a proxy war between Pakistan and India," Karzai said in an address to a thinktank, saying he was "sure" India wouldn't allow such a scenario either.
In an AFP interview earlier this week, Musharraf warned that Pakistan would look to use ethnic Pashtuns to counter if India tries to achieve its goal of creating an "anti-Pakistan Afghanistan".
Nuclear-armed neighbours India and Pakistan have long accused each other of using proxy forces to try to gain influence in Afghanistan.
"If Indians are using some elements of the ethnic entities in Afghanistan, then Pakistan will use its own support for ethnic elements, and our ethnic elements are certainly Pashtuns," the former general said ahead of the pullout later this year of Nato combat troops after 13 years.
But Karzai, who has long accused Islamabad of trying to destabilise the Kabul government, said any suggestion that Pashtuns would do Pakistan's bidding was "hurtful" and an insult to Afghanistan's largest ethnic group.
"That was a very unfortunate remark," said Karzai, who is himself a Pashtun.
"Afghanistan has a history of 5,000 years. Saying that Pashtuns will be used as a tool is insulting to Pashtuns, insulting to the people of Afghanistan."
Pakistan was one of only three countries that recognised the Taliban regime that ruled in Kabul before being toppled in late 2001 after a US-led invasion in the wake of the September 11 attacks.
The Taliban's downfall led to Karzai's installation as Afghan leader and he remained in power until standing down as president earlier this year.
Musharraf, who was a key ally of the US during the invasion, is currently confined to his home in Karachi as he battles a series of criminal cases dating back to his near decade-long rule that ended in 2008.
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@Fareed: First learn to read, before replying to a post. The reply to Dost said Pakistan helped Afghans get liberation from the Soviets, it did not say Pakistanis liberated Afghanistan. Besides, Afghanistan and Kashmir are not related, so stop trying to obfuscate the issue when you do not have a logic based argument.
@Candid 1
Oh really pakistan liberated Afghanistan! How about you give reason why pakistan failed and still fails to liberate kashmir from India..?
@Dost: But the Afghans certainly seem to forget thst it was Pakistan that helped them get liberated from Sovier occupation, while their new BFF India was supporting such occupation. Afghans seem to be confused about who their friends are. First figure that out, then worry about forgetting enemies.
They say 1200 "alleged" or "suspected" militants were killed. For all you know, they may be ordinary Pashtun civilians, with the militants having moved to other safe havens after the advance notice. Nobody knows because the press is not allowed in there.
@amherst: Karzai meant If Pakistan Indus Valley is 5000 years old than people were making home in the lands currently come under current boundary of Afghanistan too. If we have Harrappa, MohenjoDaro and Taxila than they have similar cites too. I don't think he meant people from current time have blood lines going that far back due to migration and invasions that was common in boundary-less lands.
@Sohraab: If you care to check, people don't build consulates on border but in towns and cities ! One keeps posts on borders !
@Sohraab: Don't you read anything - I just gave you the reason for the Consulates in Afghanistan. The work of Consulates has gone beyond just consular work, they also manage aid programs. As for the UAE, it is a smaller place and has better communications, besides India does not have any projects there to manage, hence fewer Consulates.
@zoro: Really feel sorry for those Indians who are still day Dreaming that Pakistan will collapse soon. Keep Dreaming Brother!!
@Afghan Maihan: Afghan refugees are in Pashtun lands and very much at home.
Hmm.. By your logic, all white people need to leave United States as soon as possible. They have invaded the Red Indian land some 300years ago. Where as Pashtuns have been living in the now Afghanistan and Pakistan 5000 years or so they should unite to form a single Pashtun land called Afghania. Ditto for Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe etc etc.. Europe's population will increase, and this will solve many of their HR problems like negative birthrate. You are indeed a visionary my friend!
@Mangal: Same goes for Afghanistan as you cant sideline Pakistan's importance in the region and your total Trade dependence is through Pakistan routes. Hence, it is highly important for Afghanistan to stop allowing foreign Agencies to use Afghan Land against Pakistan.
As Musharraf used to say "Some Pakistani Politicians Live in the Paradise of fools), now this time he proved that either he himself is a fool or is just acting as one. Pashtoons hate the Pakistani establishment (Establishment, not people) more than any other ethnic group here do. Pashtoons were the primary victims of this last 13 years insurgency in Afghanistan and they know much better who is behind all this bloodshed. Most importantly, my Pakistani friends need to know that we truly undrstand the capacities and capabilities of Pakistan and really much know that they were never in a position to directly get involved against Afghanistan, be it now or back during the cold war. They were only playing the role of a catalyst and they do almost the same now. Afghan Taliban in Pakistan with no doubt have strong anti Pakistani sentiments, just the need for a shelter has made them compromise with them. The day they found a substitute, very soon Pakistan would start bearing the brunt.
Being muslims, our neighbors, having shared culture, language and tradition, I would like to tell you that we can live in a very peaceful and friendly enviroment. We can develop together, you just need to digest the fact that stable Afghanistan is now a reality. This country is going to be one of the key countries in the region and Pakistan shall learn to live in the enviroment of equality and mutual respect with Afghanistan.
@Thotatum25: Wow man I am impressed with your knowledge on Consulate operations....May I ask why you need so many Consulates to manage few hundred Indians in Afghanistan whereas only 2 or 3 offices in UAE where you have multibillion Dollar transactions & Millions of Indians residing..please enlighten us!
@Virkaul: Same goes for your Government and leaders also Brother. I am surprised that no one from India or Afghanistan is able to answer why so many Indian consulates on Pak Border. This has been acknowledge by the former Afghan Leader, and also accepted by the last PM Singh during Egypt meeting with Pak PM!! Lets face it...these hostilities will remain for next 10 years maybe!!
So long, some Pashtuns were fighting in Afghanistan because they were thinking that they are fighting occupying forces. They were not fighting Afghanistan to show solidarity with Pakistan. As soon as US and NATO forces leave, in all likelihood all Pashtuns (those in Afghanistan and those in pakistan) will join together and turn against Pakistan. This is what Pakistan should be concerned now. India has no role nor can it play any role to influence Afghanistan in this regard. Creating a bad blood with Afghanistan, will be disastrous for Pakistan. At that time, Pakistan will find that even China will ditch Pakistan for Afghanistan. Why keep protecting terrorists that attack you or the other country. Both Pakistan and Afghanistan should go after all terrorists and wipe them out from the entire region.
@ Sohraab
Afghan refugees are in Pashtun lands and very much at home.
@Sohraab: Since you appear to be on a comment-spree, could you do a little reading before writing - India has exactly the same number of consulates in Afghanistan as Pakistan: four and in exactly the same places - Jalalabad, Herat, Kandahar and Mazar-e-Sharif. You must have missed the fact (in spite of its wide reporting in the media), that India has an ongoing $2 billion aid program in Afghanistan and hence the Consulates. BTW, what are four Pakistani Consulates doing in Afghanistan since we have not read about any major Pakistani assistance projects in that country.
This is not the world of doing right or wrong, this is the world of doing things that our in own interest. supporting TTP is in Pakistan's interest, and they wud do it, despite it's wrong or it's right. India's interest lies in supporting the Afghan govt., and they'll do that. India and Pakistan are not friends, they are enemies, they are supposed to do things to out do one another. You win some, you loose some. That's how it works.
@Sohraab: It is a lie that Pakistanis spread to keep their masses ignorant. The truth comes out 5-6 later. Take for example incursions into Kashmir in 1947/48, 1965 and 1999 where it was claimed to be a local uprising. But later Pakistan had to agree that it was their mischief. They denied their interference in Afghanistan but now truth comes out from Sartaj Aziz and Pervez Musharraf. Pakistan vowed to be part of war on terror but secretly supported Taliban which Western powers found out. No surprise they called Pakistanis as compulsive liars.
@abreez You need lot of knowledge of economics, just look at the size of your countries total GDP and India GDP, India's total GDP is about 15 times greater and by next 5-10 years it will about 25 times greater than yours. Just read some books or use google for knowledge update. India do not bother much about pakistan as far as business and financial matters are concern.
@Anjaan: No problem...your myth will be shattered soon brother!
@Hedgefunder: Please enlighten us why so many Indian Consulates are allowed by your Government to operate near Pakistan Border????
@Afghan Maihan: But please take all your Millions of refugees back and provide them food and shelter...at least this much your Indian friends can do right?
@Dost: Please put the same question to your leadership and advise them to stop India from interfering in Pakistan through your soil...then we can talk about friendship...and by the way no one from Pakistan wants to conquer your land!!!
@Qahaar: Yeah telling the truth about Afghan politicians..playing in Indian Hands!!
Countries that lack confidence use all the crutches they can, because they lack belief in their own capabilities. The efficacy of using proxies and the end results are known to all, Pakistan losing over 50,000 citizens in collateral damage, however blaming others for this folly. This inability to take responsibility for actions is the root of the problem. No wonder some are so blindsided as to believe repeating past follies will bring different results. Intellectual bankruptcy, at its worst !
@abreez: From where will u get money to buy all this oil u have mentioned ... Not a single country is ready to do Business with you ... nor does the IP pipeline has materialised... which is a shining example for even TOGO... India has long suggested the border ... Its Pakistan which is not agreeing ... so let that be ... Lets see how long can Pakistan carry on... The numbers you suggested about the poverty in India suggests that the above poverty no of people in India are 3 times the size of Pakistans population ...what say ...
@abreez: From where will u get money to buy all this oil u have mentioned ... Not a single country is ready to do Business with you ... nor does the IP pipeline has materialised... which is a shining example for even TOGO... India has long suggested the border ... Its Pakistan which is not agreeing ... so let that be ... Lets see how long can Pakistan carry on... The numbers you suggested about the poverty in India suggests that the above poverty no of people in India are 3 times the size of Pakistans population ...what say ...
Regardless of what Karzai or anyone else would wish, the proxy war in Afghanistan is all but certain. But this time around, the cost on Pakistan will be far higher than what it has been so far. Once the Americans are gone, the generous flow of dollars in the name of coalition support funding will eventually dry up ... Pakistan will have to fight this proxy war on its own strength by paying for its own war bills ... !!
The cost of First World War was 2 trillion dollar and new borders, the great Ottoman Empire ceased to exist and started to live in history books. The cost of Second World War was around 4 trillion dollar and new borders, the great English empire ceased to exist and started to live in history books. The cost of Soviet-US cold war was 10 to 12 trillion dollar and the great Soviet Empire ceased to exist and started living in history books. First phase of American Cold War against China in Afghanistan cost different participants’ 4 to 5 trillion dollars and a temporary withdrawal and both America and China are now searching battleground of their choice. Now new opportunities will give both India and Pakistan enough resources to claim either Hindu borders of 997 or Muslim Empire of 1308. India should realize that now no one in Pakistan can tolerate Indian lovers, at the same time India cannot follow Baji Rao or Balaji Rao’s doctrine against Pakistan. Let Pakistan follow these doctrines against India and if India will remain biggest poverty of the world, if 400,000,000 Indian will remain member of a club of $37 per month to spend, if 481,000,000 Indian will remain member of a club of $60 per month to spend, then the weight of artificial elephant will submerge the elephant and then this elephant will remain in history books. Syrian conflict destroy UN’s image to such an extent that now UN is not more than a debating club, in future country to country relationship matter and for better relationship no country will interfere in internal affairs of other countries. And if any country has a terrorist organization with the name of ‘RAW’ increase its poverty. Russia’s daily oil production is 10,100,000 bbl and Russia’s daily consumption is 3,196,000 bbl and Russia has oil reserves of 80,000 MMbbl. Saudi Arabia’s daily oil production is 9,800,000 bbl and its daily consumption is 2,817,000 bbl and its oil reserves are 267,910 MMbbl. Iran’s daily oil production is 4,231,000 bbl and its daily consumption is 1,709,000 bbl and its oil reserves are 26,544 MMbbl. Nigeria’s daily oil production is 2,525,000 bbl and its daily consumption is 271,600 bbl and Nigeria’s oil reserves are estimated about 37,200 MMbbl. Countries like, UAE, Mexico, Kuwait, Brazil, Algeria, Angola, Kazakhstan, Qatar, Colombia, Azerbaijan, Indonesia, Oman, Libya, Malaysia, Ecuador, Syria, Equatorial Guinea, Vietnam, Yemen, Congo, Gabon, Turkmenistan, Trinidad and Tobago, Brunei are producing oil more than their consumption and all these countries will encourage road links because these links will change world economy and when Russian oil companies need oil in Middle East, in Africa or in South America they’ll ask a nearby country for a barter trade as any nearby country’s oil companies will need oil in China or any country near Russia. Thus majority of the world will encourage road links as these links will offer opportunities to everyone, for countries tourist and for people savings. Now terrorist organizations like ‘RAW’ has no future and Pakistan’s policy should be ‘No interference in Afghanistan and let India remain biggest poverty of the world.’
@Dost:
"Turn to friendship with Afghanistan.."
This is exactly what Pakistan is asking. "Turn to friendship with Pakistan" instead of always working against us, and stop performing the role of Indian slave state. You will ripe what you sow.
@Aseem: This is what they have been doing since the Russian invasion, first at US calling and then to achieve their own flawed policies in the region, by creating and installing the Taliban in power, also first to recognize the regime. So which proxy war are they talking about ? As far as i know India has contributed to development of infrastructure, education and civil society, additionally assisted in training their law enforcement & security personal. That is not an act to destabilize the Nation. Unfortunately for them, these very elements are responsible for mess in their own country, as they are now redundant, hence nowhere to go !
@AB: Does the atomic state where the army gets 65 percent of the countries budget control all areas of the country? no definitely not.
@ AB
Afghans will use TTP as a proxy to interfere in Pakistan's affairs and the tit for tat game will continue. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you think Afghans will not react to Pakistan's actions, you are in for a rude awakening. If Pakistan justifies using Pashtuns as proxies, Afghans can also use Pashtuns as proxies.
It really hurts to use Pashtuns(Taliban) as proxies to fight Indian in Afghanistan. Why not do the honourable thing to fight Indian army face to face. US needs to come clear on these sort of thinkings of Sertaj Aziz & Gen Musharaf.
This guy is such a loser...
Ghani seems like an amazingly better person, someone who actually wants to do good for the Afghan people.
Im very happy Ghani came into power from the elections...
To all Pakistanis,
Do you really want to keep destroying Afghanistan? Every Afghan (Pashtoon , Uzbek, Tajik , Hazara , Baloch, Muslim , Hindu , Sikh) doesn't forget enemies.
Turn to friendship with Afghanistan , it is better than winning the enmity of Afghans. No one can conquer Afghanistan. The likes of Musharaf Besharaf will ultimately doom Pakistan and a hold back the whole of South-Asia.
Think...
Pakistani politicians are finally coming out of the closets and telling the truth to the world. Recent statements by Sartaj and Musharraf are the examples of their emancipation.
@Aseem: I wouldn't call it "threatening & undermining" the Afghans. The fact of the matter is Pakistan is home to a lot of Afghans which by the way Afghanistan does not want to welcome back. About the leadership, I have no doubts on the qualification, maturity and experience of the people running the show in Kabul but the question is, how much of Afghanistan they actually rule? The inability of Kabul of exercising its authority over the masses living far swaths of Afghanistan is creating issues for Pakistan. And yes, there are many groups whose funding comes from our "righteous" neighbor to the east to wage proxy disturbances is our tribal areas. And yes, all of the above is enough justification of Pakistan's supposed interferrence in Afghan internal affairs.
Afghanistan's foreign policy will be decided by Afghans, not Pakistan. They have very qualified, mature and experienced leadership to take a call in the interest of Afghanistan. Stating that Pakistan will use Afghans if the latter tilts towards India, is not only interfering in the internal affairs of another country but also threatening and undermining the Afghans.
what exactly did this stooge do for pashtuns in his decade in power? the man rarely left his presidential palace. now he's sitting in india talking about pakistan. brave.