Scotland’s referendum stirs Kashmiri demands for vote on future
Scotland was voting on Thursday on whether to split away from the United Kingdom in a ballot Kashmiri leader Mirwaiz Umar Farooq said was an example of how Kashmiris' demands for a say on their future could be solved peacefully.
"We hope India will also change its approach and realise the fact that people's rights can't be trampled upon," Farooq, the head Muslim priest on the Indian side of Kashmir, where a violent insurgency against New Delhi's rule raged through the 1990s and resentment still runs high, said on Wednesday.
"It is encouraging that in a peaceful manner people will be deciding their future."
Kashmir has been divided between India and Pakistan since a war after independence from Britain in 1947, and the two nuclear-armed neighbours have fought two of their three wars over the territory.
India has never carried out a promise made more than six decades ago to hold a plebiscite that would determine the wishes of the Kashmiri people.
It now considers the entire region of snow-capped mountains and fertile valleys an integral part of its territory and maintains a massive military presence in Jammu and Kashmir, its northernmost and only Muslim-majority state.
Foreign Minister Sushma Swaraj blurted out her horror at the thought of New Delhi's former colonial master splitting apart, when questioned at a news conference last week.
"A break-up of the UK? God forbid," she said. "I don't think any such possibility exists at the moment."
After a senior civil servant whispered in her ear, Swaraj corrected herself, commenting: "It is up to the people of Scotland to decide."
Hardline Kashmiri leader Syed Ali Shah Geelani praised the United Kingdom for giving Scotland the vote, adding that London should now put pressure on India to grant Kashmiris a referendum.
"India should learn lessons from UK and honour its commitment of granting right to self-determination to people of Kashmir," Geelani said.
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@IndianDude: What exactly is non-"Original" about the muslims of the valley. Most of them are the descendants of pundits. You want to disinherit them because their ancestors chose to convert ! Did you even go to school ???
The most astonishing part of Kashmir problem is-why didn't Pakistan withdraw the "invaders" from Kashmir under its rule right after the resolution?.Then India would have been obligated to keep its part of the promise. But somehow Pakistani leadership let the time pass.It is too late now to settle this in one country's favor.Taking it by force means a war-most likely turning into a nuclear one.Only durable peace will allow the Kashmiri's on two sides to have any meaningful interchange.
@Aschraful Makhlooq: Talk is cheap. Try walking the talk for a change.
@Aschraful Makhlooq: You seem to be an expert in considering 'other options'. Unfortunately this attitude of yours has cost your country it's reputation. Wake up and smell the coffee. It's for your own benefit.
@Imran: No they won't!
"If Kashmiris were Christians..." @Lion King: You provided the answer to the problem yourself.
All people screaming that Kashmir is part of India, abuse and malign Kashmiris and Muslims daily. Kashmiris never had a choice as to their destiny, but India and the UK decided this fate for Kashmiris. Indians, be logical and factual, you know inside that Kashmiris belong in Pakistan. Stop confusing the reality, and get outside your bubble.
Kashmir was never part of Hindu India, it was always a part of the Muslim world, and it owes much of its culture to modern-day Pakistanis. Either give Kashmiris their rights, or prepare to face Kashmiri revolution and Pakistan's victory. It is inevitable when more than 90% of Kashmiri populations support Pakistan over India. India can't win, and you know it.
These people are not even the local people of Kashmir. They came with the invaders. Most of the native Kashmiri people live elsewhere in India. We will ask them - not you guys !!
@Imran:
"Its a foolish thought that Balochistan will opt for Independent state…..I can assure if referendum is held tomorrow Balochi ppl wants to remain with Pakistan"
So, what is preventing Pakistan from holding a free and fair referendum in Balochstan?
What stops Pakistan from holding an internationally monitored free and fair referendum in the portion of Kashmir (AJK, Gilgit/Baltistan/Hunza and other northern areas) and Balochistan?
Once that is done, I am sure Indians will follow the good example.
@AD: even in america 1 in 4 persons wants their state to secede from the usa- if we give such a silly idea to everyone in the world we will have 10,000 countries- because people are tribal by nature.. they will all want their tribes to be independent. pakistan will have 100 countries if all are allowed to vote for independence- baluchistan to start with. india will have a 1000 countries if all are allowed to vote for separation. China will have a 1000 countries too- where to draw the line- forget kashmir- pakistan is itself ripe for further divisions so do not play this game....
More indians here then Pakistanis :D lol
I think there is a desperate need of education in Pakistan about UN resolution.Despite many Indian comments on it, Pakistanis simply failed to understand it. Another try 1. UN resolution is not binding to any party. 2. If it is followed, Pakistan has to pull out its army out of entire PoK and remove all non original Kashmiris out of it. 3. The geographical demography to be restored i.e. Pakistan to request china out of aksai chin.
Once Pakistan is done all three, India needs to do following 1. Keep minimum army and administrative force to conduct plebscite.
Now ball is in Pakistan's court. Fulfill the three conditions and help Kashmiris for plebiscite.
@Pak: First of all try to conduct a sincere local election in Pak . Would the world be foolish enough to take lectures on referendum from a terminally ill patient who has witnessed 7 successful and attempted coups ? If in doubt , ask IK .
@Shuaib Bhat: To All Indians, for Baluchistan there no UN resolution but for Kashmir there are plebiscite resolutions.
@Nokashmir: Independence is not decided based on will of majority. What if 100% people of a village want to separate from country ?
Friends all Balochi Love pakistan Except few political leaders who take money from India. But Kashmir, Everyone from Child to Old, Male to Female Peon to Political Leaders everyone want Freedom From India.
@Imran If Pakistani are so sure that Balooch people will choose to stay with them then whats the problem in holding referendum there. We all know what is the truth.
@Mr Sunny Leon: My friend, Balochi People love Pakistan only some political Leaders eats money from india and question about. Have you ever visit balochistan. All people love pakistan and want to stay with it. But Kashmir from child to old, male to female, Peon to political leaders every one want freedom from India. This is the Fact.
Lets also have referendums for Sindh, Baluchistan ,KP and GB considering that Pakistan is ruled and run by primarily Punjabis. Let's also have a partition on religious lines once again .Oh also, let's have a referendum in Xinjiang, Tibet , Sri Lanka and Pakistan of course before we talk of kashmir and nagaland and other places in India.
No need of any UN resolution in these places, Scotland needed no UN referendums to go to the polls.Pakistanis can start first and show the rest of the world the way.
@Imran: we became balochi ppl to you. why don't you rather say that we are all Pakistanis. this just show how ppl in so called my country views us. enough is enouh, time for independence. we don't want to stay with "them".
@Lion King: If Balochis were christians like South Sudanese and East Timorese they certainly would have gotten their right of self determination long ago.
The ground reality is people of Jammu and Ladakh do not want to separate from India. The Shias of Kargil are content with the present status. In the Kashmir valley, the Gujjars and Bakkerwals do not see eye to eye with Kashmiris. Even among Kashmiris not all support the call for plebiscite, although, admittedly, substantial numbers do. In any case, a tiny, independent Kashmir valley is not a viable proposition. One thing for sure, nobody wants to become part of Pakistan.
Always remember, the UN resolutions apply to all of erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir. For a start, try having a plebiscite in Gilgit-Baltistan. Do not forget that the UN resolutions direct Pakistan to withdraw all of its forces from the territory of the state of J&K, before a plebiscite can be conducted.
Scotland and England are in a "union". Kashmir acceded to India. Period.
There is one crucial difference which people do not realise. The Scottish vote is NOT BASED ON RELIGION. While the vote on Kashmir is based on religion. At present Kashmir is dominated by religious terrorists who, if given a chance will intimidate the secular minded people to either abstain or vote on basis of religion and religion alone. The sub continent has already seen one partition on basis of it and the bloodletting that accompanied it.
Is the sub-continent ready to face another such tragedy? And what about the people who were forced to migrate at the time of migration? Should their descendants not have the right and have their say on partition itself? Why should they be deprived of having any say in the matter? One cannot wish this away by saying "what has happened has happened, its in the past." If that is so then same argument can be put forth for Kashmir too. In nutshell, either bring the whole business of partition on the table, or just forget about Kashmir.
Crimeans wanted to quit Ukraine and join Russia and they did not wait for referendum. If kashmiris truely want to join Pakistan they should unite and take power in kashmir and merge with Pakistan. Simple!
If the Kashmiris were Christians like South Sudanese and East Timorese they certainly would have gotten their right of self determination long ago
Scots got to vote in referendum after 307 years of union. By that logic, India should hold a referendum in Kashmir in the year 2254 AD. till then chill guys.... 240 years more to go. yaaawwwnn.
Its a foolish thought that Balochistan will opt for Independent state.....I can assure if referendum is held tomorrow Balochi ppl wants to remain with Pakistan
Its irrelevant what Kashmiri "leaders" like the Mirwaiz or Geelani sahab or the general Kashmiri populace or what you want or what I want. Its what Pakistan does that matters. People blaming India for violating the of UNSC resolutions in Kashmir and demanding its imposition have either: a) Not Read the UNSC resolution 47 and not understood it, or b) Read it and not Understood it c) Read it, understood it but don't want to express its true nature publically
There is no option d).
If the resolution needs to be implemented, Pakistan must pull all its forces out of "Azad" Kashmir unconditionally. Number one criteria n no arguments on that.
Pakistan is most welcome to pull out of Kashmir, let Indian forces completely take control of J&K in order to enforce the resolutions n when India fails to do so, cry foul. Until then, Pakistan will have no substantial takers for its Kashmir cause.
More importantly, the UNSC resolution 47 is passed under Chapter VI of the United Nations Charter which makes these resolutions as recommendations and they are non-binding by nature. That provision is provided under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter. Of all the diplomats that Pakistan has produced, Mr Shamshad Ahmad(Pakistan's former Ambassador to the United Nations) is the only one who has publicly expressed these facts.
http://www.dawn.com/news/1066295/dawn-opinion-05-august-2004#1
Pakistani @ : To All Indians ...........................
To All Pakistani : Pakistan has not follwed the UN resolution. First The UN resolution was for whole Jammu and Kashmir not only for Indian part of Kashmir and Secondly as per UN resolution Pakistan was directed to take first step with pulling out all there supporters and Army personels including kabalies from Kashmir and give whole Kashmir in the possion of Indian Army. Also take back gifted part of Kashmir from China. I am sure you all know the fact well but you people always try to misguide the common people.
If most of the Kashmirs wish to get sovereignty, independence, self regulation for the Kashmirs, its territory, then the government of India should not even must not insist to get the Kashmirs, its territory. Civilized culture exists only if there's no insistence for any human transactions. Mustafa Haji Alwy 2014
Who are these "Kashmiris" asking for vote on future. They dont even vote for the "current" ie the state elections. They dont contest for the state elections. But they claim to represent all kashmiris and demand vote on future. Pathetic. The people who vote for "current": state are quite happy and they dont demand any "vote on future". The results of Scottish referendum is a lesson to all. United we stand and divided u fall.
@Pakistani: And that same UN resolution demands all Pakistan troops to withdraw to pre 1947 lines ! can Pakistan do it? Read the UN resolution in detail n with open mind, before coming up with stupid demands !
@Pak:Microsoft has its largest R and D centre in Indian hyderabad city outside USA . the windows os you are using is partly developed there .so don't think much about hyderabad whatever remain with you please take care of it.
Scottish say 'No' to Independence, one simple straight forward question to all Pakis asking for referendum on Kashmir, 'do you have balls to ask for the same on Tibet ???', hypocrites.
Scotland's vote came after being 300 years as part of the UK....Kashmirs can get thier vote too after 300 years....
Problem with Pakistan is off education as they don't know basic history. Before 1947 every Pakistani was an Indian and the Princely state of Jammu and Kashmir signed Instrument of Accession to India under British military heads.
The question is not about referendum in Kashmir but when will Pakistan give back the PoK it occupied illegally. India is awaiting Gilgit Balistan and Azad Kashmir to merge with J&K. And very soon, Pakistan will be for another surprise when these areas will join India.
What about Sindh ? and we need seperate land for Muhazirs.
@Pleeezing: The most significant word in your post is the very first one. "If" renders the entire exercise in Schadenfreude useless.
Pleeezing@ : and if referendum called in Pakistan no one will like to live with Pakistan accept Punjab. Baloch, Sindhi, Pakhtoon and POK Kashmiries will first to go like bangalies. Talk about POK Kasmiris humanrights . Are they want to live with Pakistan ? Here i am taking about original Kashmiris.
You are right in 1947 India was broken in three parts 1. India (15/08/1947). 2. Pakistan (14/08/1947). And 3. Bilochistan (11/08/1947).
Bilochistan got freedom on 11 August 1947 and has his consulate in Karachi. After 225 days of freedom Pakistan by force capture the Republic of Bilochistan.
As for as Indian Kashmir is concern they are electing there government after verey 5 years. Indian Kashmir has only problem with so called free fighters send by Pakistan.
@just_someone: I have many friends in Glasgow and also Governor Punjab is there making sure that every Kashmiri and Pakistani vote for No. Its also common sense (which surely you lack) that only a stupid immigrant would vote for "Yes", which means out of European Union, out of NATO, no Universal Health System, no Welfare, no Pension, no Pound Sterling and no UK passport. They all migrated to England for England, not for a third world country which Scotland would become after Independence.
@Pleeezing: Yes, we are backward and we would like to continue to be that way forever.
If given freedom, it will become another extremist backwater like Pakistan
@Pleezing You are correct. But Pakistan has already disintegrated and looks much riper and ready for disintegration more than India.
@ZH: Go ask balochis most of them don't want independence
I'm sure if you hold a vote of referendum in Balochistan the answer would be a resounding No! The same cannot be said of India Occupied Kashmir.
Also @ Ch. Allah Daad: you and your Uncle Nawaz do not care about Kashmiris, please stop pretending to do so. There's a resignation pending on your Uncle's desk.
Go to Pakistan and seek a vote there first. Kashmir has been our land for over 5000 years. Kashmir is not Scotland.
“It is encouraging that in a peaceful manner people will be deciding their future.”
There lies the difference between civilized Scott and terrorist who shed blood of innocent in kashmir valley.
"....Scotland’s referendum stirs Kashmiri demands for vote on future.."
I agree with the demand for vote on Kashir, the agenda for Indian voters should be:
Should we abolish article 370 and give rights to the rest of the Indians to own properties, houses and business in the J & K? Should those leaders, still living in the valley, who were responsible for ethnic cleansing of 300+ thousands Pundits (the original people of the valley) be hung in the public square? Or buy them one way tickets to the land of pure? Should the Indian government stop wasting the promised Rs. 20,000+ millions (that is more than PKR 35,000 million!!!!) of flood relief for the thankless people in the valley? And instead, spend Rs. 20,000+ on relocation of Pundits back to their ancestral land in the valley?It will be a good idea for all parties to remember - India is not UK and Kashmir is not Scotland. India has no intention of behaving like UK and we are not seeking any certificates of good behavior from anyone in this regard. Exactly like the Russians and Chinese, we will not hesitate to use half a gram of lead on anyone who thinks they can ape Scotland.
For my Indian friends on the blog, If a referendum helds in Balochistan, it will remain with Pakistan, may be just because of the predominant Pashtun community 48% there.. However, Leave Kashmir, If India sincerely carries out referendum in HYDERABAD DAKAN (which was captured forcefully by India in 1948), I guarantee you that you will find it an INDEPENDENT HYDERABAD next day.
Great vote. I doubt India has the intellectual and moral honesty to allow Kashmiris to decide their fate. Kashmir will be free, but it won't be at the hands of US, UK, or West, but only through the solidarity and unity between Pakistanis and Kashmiri people.
India has no right to lecture anyone as India broke up Pakistan using Bengali nationalism and racism. If Kashmir decides to join Pakistan, let's call it even. Kashmiris would be very happy with this settlement. :)
Makes sense to me - add in Balochistan, Tibet, eastern Ukraine and a few other problem areas in the World and we might see some peace for a change.
Kashmir can have referendum once the illegal invaders from deserts leave the land and let the local pundits decide their future until then buzz off!
@Talha Rizvi: I believe you have pointed out the gist of the matter. Hopefully Indians too learn from it. Indians too lost their territory to Muslims from Arab Qasim's time till Maharaja Ranjit Singh put end to it.Unfortunately his reconquistic policies were not followed after his death. All the territories lost in past now must be, will be restored to their rightful owners in this century. This is the best and biggest lesson of Scotland's decision to go for referendum.They are asking fro separation and not partition as they are claiming their land back to them. End of Colonialism, End of religious Imperialism, end of partition/s and beginning of recovery, its natural order and no one can stop nature taking its course.
I believe there was a similar referendum in Sudan a couple of years ago!!!
If this indeed fuels fire in kashmir, the result will be nothing but another generation of youth in pakistan getting wasted on pointless jihad.
@Ch. Allah Daad: Oh really, youve met ENERY SINGLE kashmiri in Scotland? Can you tell me their names to verify off hand??? No??? Ok, then... Please keep your general, nonsense statements to yourself!
@Ch. Allah Daad: No a lot of Kashmiris living in Glasgow are voting yes to independence - go and watch the news showing some prominent Pakistani businessmen including Kashmiris voting for independence. After all the English cheated the Kashmiris of freedom at the time of independence when they connived with the Indians. One day, occupied Kashmir will also get the chance to vote for its freedom in a referendum as mandated by the United Nations.
All Kashmiris living in Scotland are voting No.
The relationship of Scotland and UK is not the same as Kashmir and India. Scotland entered into a treaty in 1702 as a separate and independent "nation" to unite with England till such time, with the option to leave, as they desire.
Kashmir ACCEDED ie merged into India permanently, thereby becoming an integral part of the Union of India, thus giving up its sovereignty and its separate identity. The people of Kashmir did not have any sovereign right to land before as they were mere subjects in a kingdom and they do not have any sovereign right to land now as mere citizens of a republic nation.
Moderator, pls allow the post so you can have a realistic discussion..
For starters Scottish did not ethnic cleanse English out of their lands in the name of holy war. There is not a much bigger Uber Scotland right next to Scotland that is even more committed to wage jihad in England and completely ethnic cleansed the English out of Scotland. Scottish are unlikely to give the remaining miniscule English minority third class citizenship and still constantly harass them...
Scottish are unlikely to bomb bus stations,railway stations and slaughter unarmed English.....Scottish are unlikely to come with AK47 rifles to mow down unarmed civilians waiting on railway platforms.....on and on.... I just read your title....you have a great sense of humour....
I am an Indian and a Hindu. I am all for independence if the majority in the state so desire. But before that status of minorities and women's rights should be addressed. Only secular laws should govern all of Pakistan for it or else minorities and women will suffer the same way they are now in the rest of Pakistan.
The big difference is that Scotland and England are civilised nations , there have been no murders, no bomb blasts and no religious extremism during the process. Whatever the outcome is it will be accepted by both Scotland and England. Unfortunately Kashmiris , Pakistanis and Indians cannot claim the same
Agreed,Balochistan too.
Whether Pakistan will show the way by holding referendum in Baloochistan or this "gyan" is just for others ?
It would have been nice if you too learn some lessons from UK on how to treat their minority citizens.....
The time for ruling by force is gone .Regions/states/provinces etc stay togather because it is in thier mutual interest and as such any of the above entities have the right to seperate or come out of it if they think it is in thier best interest.Now how small we can go I think we go even to the size of a handkerchief if they can sustain themselves independently.
Does this same apply to Balochistan also ?
Indians wil bring up Balochistan, Sectarianism, how evil Muslims are and the displacement of Kashmiri Pundits instead of responding logically. Here is fact for them. The number of Kashmiri pundits displaced is probably less then the People killed and Displaced in Jammu in 1947. If Kashmiri pundits get the vote why can't their descendants have a say in this voting process? Kashmiri muslims have been immigrating outside ever since the Sikh rule. That is why Urban Punjab has a large number of ethnic Kashmiris. Even Lucknow had Kashmiri neighborhoods.
India is not UK and Scotland is no Kashmir. This is not an apples to apples comparison. Someone can say the same thing via-a-vis Baluchistan/Pakistan. Please get off your high horses and smell the coffee.
It will come insha-Allah. The opression & occupation ultimately ends. It can forcefully be prolonged but its ultimate fate is that it ends. Nothing against India or any other country for that matter.
So should we as Pakistanis. This is one country and look fine most Balochis do not want to break away from us but the real question is: why should any Baloch want to break away from our Republic? We should treat alll our citizens equally, address their grieviences and even give them a plebsibate AFTER that. They won't leave provided we treat them right!
who are kashmiri leaders??