Towards middle age, this “man of the left” fell in love with the idea of empires more relevant, seeking citizenship in America. 9/11 pushed Hitch further to the right, from where he gifted the expression “fascism with an Islamic face” to the English language. Deserting his liberal comrades, he finally embraced the most red-meat cause of them all: war in Iraq. Taking trips to Baghdad with Bush ghoul Paul Wolfowitz and tut-tutting the horrors of Abu Ghraib, Hitchens became one of neoconservatism’s more scholarly enablers — impressive considering just how stupid neoconservatism is.
So it is to the Hitch we turn, one of the world’s louder voices towards the end of his life, to understand the kind of rep Pakistan has begun getting. In an essay penned after the humiliating Abbottabad raid, Hitchens took a sledgehammer to all things white and green. Calling Pakistan a wretched state, a “Walmart of fissile material” and, for the US, both the mercenary and the sycophant, Hitchens’s bile flowed free. “If Pakistan were a person,” he wrote, “he would have to be completely humourless, paranoid, and insecure, while suffering from self-righteousness, self-pity, and self-hatred.”
One might agree only with that last quality. A caveat first: with his big words, dull tones and public schoolboy manner, Hitchens was a gifted takedown artist for whichever master he served at the time (both the mercenary and the sycophant, as someone would say). Now the latest cheerleader for the Crusade against “Moslem Terror”, Hitchens pulled no punches with Pakistan. But the problem lies in greater part with us: we’re making the job for Pakistan’s critics far too easy, not least when we’re doing it for them.
In case you missed it, Pakistani society is fracturing. At a time when tens of thousands of lives have been lost to the most serious existential threat we’ve ever seen from within, civilised societies are buying ideas men like Christopher Hitchens are selling from without. It’s the worst of both worlds Pakistan-style, all the casualties and no memorials. Abroad, the Pakistan-as-wretched-state narrative sells hard not because the alternative narrative is less convincing — but because there is no alternative narrative on offer. Our policymakers have no idea what Pakistan’s role in the world should be. This nuclear power can’t even boast a foreign minister — two viziers instead jostle for anything but.
At home, society splits across lines of race, class and sect, with militants abusing aspects of all three. With drone attacks that murder our children, and bomb blasts that blow up flesh-and-blood human beings and bricks-and-mortar residencies, anything that reminds us of federation, of being whole, is being torn apart. But we would rather hate one another first. As right-wing reactionaries rail against “liberal fascists”, easily the stupidest term to have ever made it into our lexicon, liberal elites will giggle over the bad English of the urban middle classes. Easier countries can endure lack of consensus; in Pakistan, it means certain types of Pakistani deaths resonate in one’s heart more than others.
We learnt last year that a 14-year-old girl could merit assassination. But we also learnt nine years ago that the very first drone fired into Pakistan murdered children — two of them. Nek Muhammad was ours to try, Malala was ours to save. By conflating these two wholly separate issues, we ended up doing neither. That factory fire in Karachi? We had ourselves a debate pitting labour law reform against the joys of deregulation, and went back to sleep.
Unfortunately, you don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to know Shakil Afridi committed treason, or that Raymond Davis committed murder. You don’t have to be a ghairat brigadier to know that drone strikes are destroying our soul; or a liberal fascist to know our own defenders are complicit. You’re not a separatist for knowing the state is hurting the Baloch people, you’re not the establishment for knowing that terrorists are killing non-Baloch settlers. You don’t have to be Faisal Raza Abdi to know the system acquits monsters, you don’t have to be our superior courts to know vani is part of the feudal disease. You’re not a Barelvi for knowing these militants will bleed and bleed Pakistan regardless of “external powers”, and you’re not a Deobandi for knowing America’s war in Afghanistan has rendered our own country unrecognisable. It’s time we build a united narrative.
When Germany’s Willy Brandt dropped to his knees before the monument of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, where 300,000 Poles had been slaughtered by the Nazis, it became a symbol that shook Poland and overwhelmed younger Germans. Brandt’s testament was wordless — to the tragedy of war, to the evil of genocide, to crimes of pain and cruelty that language couldn’t atone for. In 1970, Brandt showed that it was worth trying to close even the chasms world wars left behind. That first step towards Germany reuniting, that first crack in the Berlin Wall, was Germany’s chancellor attempting redemption. Pakistan needs coming together too, but constant calls for reform will only work if there’s agreement on what needs reforming.
More than any other country, Pakistan has to heal. Reaching across the aisle and helping each other up would make for a start. We saw consensus in the streets after Quetta’s heartbreaking bloodshed earlier this year. It is with a heart still broken that one says, after yesterday, we will need it again.
Published in The Express Tribune, July 2nd, 2013.
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COMMENTS (96)
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@Rakib:
"I was only wondering at the nature of League leadership that did not care for the pathetically poor, illiterate Muslim masses & walked off instead of staying back & struggling."
"Yes, I did say that those that couldn’t accept idea of living together, left. I was not questioning their right, I was wondering whether they were right."
1- This is my final post on the subject here. I'd like to thank you and reiterate my respect and admiration for you for the reasons I had already mentioned, in another article, and you know that.
2- As I know, Indian Muslim League is still active in some provinces of India, and I just wonder why 150+ million Indian Muslims cannot come together to raise their own leadership to defend their rights, instead of feeling betrayed by those in whose leadership and judgement they didn't believe in.
3- Secularism was more out the "pragmatic" necessity, than choice, of Indian leaders given the country's diversity and social, political, and religious conflicts prevalent just after independence. Now that need has greatly diminished after managing and consolidating geopolitical control over the Territory through decades long consistent conscious efforts using every available means, and further by gaining some clout on the international arena, as reflected by the momentum and rise in popularity of Hindutava - search original philosophy - parties pushing them from marginalized to national levels.
4- It will further take another 20--25 years to clear things up, and only then we will be in a position to judge whether that decision of Muslim League was right or wrong. I sincerely hope that we are proved wrong; not measured by our failures, as you say; but then what was the need to reject Muslim League's demands in the first place. They were not asking anything, but a guarantee of equal rights for Muslims of the sub-continent, and nothing more than what was later guaranteed, though only on paper, to the state of Jammy & Kashmir.
Regards, and good night.
@Lala Gee:You are seriously recommending Wikipedia to me to know history of my own land! (What happened to good old book shelf I wonder! Not even Aitzaz Ahsan's Indus Saga? Or the oeuvre of Prof.KK Aziz dealing with events that led to Partition?) With due respects, IMHO, once you outsource thinking to such a source like Wiki it leads to atrophy of imagination. You are using a western idiom of a Nation-State to describe what you call "7000 years" old subcontinent. India is not 2-nations; may be 20 nations depending on definitions used & so what's new? Necessity caused by TNT to augment its basic argument apart, I wish one thinks beyond the ready made boxes provided by part-time historians like Churchill who was loath to call India anything different from Africa. A Muslim after all should be the first one to question the western concept of Nation-State, arbitrary Boundaries under war treaties or Nationalism itself & should be capable of some independent thought.
Besides,I did not claim here anything about Political Unity of India, past or present. That's not the only form of unity anyway but Western writers brought up on European examples may not realise that. I was not discussing "political/military history" of India either. I was merely describing feelings of simple, devote Hindus (75% of India was rural back then) just as I spoke of Muslims,and that too only as per my lights. What makes a Hindu "tick" is not written in any pedia. Which 'Pedia can really list out subjective impressions, those indescribable feelings, those elusive sentiments & gossamer strands that bind groups together including Muslims Worldwide, despite their differences? Can't draw a political map to describe the living, breathing entity that many Hindus consider India to be & their ties of love. I will have to write an essay to explain all that! Personally I am devoid of any excessively religious or maudlin emotions but I value those of my H & M compatriots that no cartographer can do justice to.
I do not consider creation of BD by itself a point against 2-Nation Theory. It is probably a point in favour of 20-Nation Theory! Joining or not joining Indian Union was not even an issue back then. What Lord Curzon had divided could never be put together really again. My comment was based on the consideration that once one pleads that it is not possible to live with The Other, it may become a habit to jettison or move away from some others too on some other flimsy issue. Then it is a Domino effect. IMHO, there is the element of self-fulfilling prophecies in the affairs of nations too. I wouldn't wish any country to be in a situation where "...The falcon cannot hear the falconer; things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;.." (WB Yates)
Thank you for a wonderful conversation. My gratitude to ET for kindness.
@Lala Gee: Islam & Secularism: What you say is interesting. Many make a similar case favouring Hinduism. UK with Church of England as State Church practices it by separation of Church from Govt. I am not questioning Islamic sense of Justice, Christian sense of Fair-play and Hindu sense of Tolerance. (In all extremists to be avoided). None of these singly or put together can make a Secular State out of a country like, say, India... And there is also one thing that is wrong. All three religions by definition deal with Hereafter. That's not on for a Secular State. A secular government should confine itself only with the "Here" of its citizens & should stay away from the spiritual.. In case of Islam it is more difficult because it is a full package deal & both worldly & other-worldly are in a seamless continuity. For India only Buddhism could have come somewhat close to the ideal since (a) it has no concept of creator or supreme deity & (b) it has no specific set of laws binding on the laity & others. But that was not to be..
Kashmir: I generally do not discuss Kashmir with Pakistanis or Indians since I know the templates they use for standard arguments very well. My mention of Muslim attitude on Kashmir was only & only from view point of Muslim demographics. Your lofty sentiments are not debated by me.
When I talk of trauma of Partition I mean of an almost vanished generation, NOT of today..Personally I don't care one way or the other about Partition; I am neither a Punjabi nor a Bengali. It's not a question of your border being open or close. I was only wondering at the nature of League leadership that did not care for the pathetically poor, illiterate Muslim masses & walked off instead of staying back & struggling.
Yes, I did say that those that couldn't accept idea of living together, left. I was not questioning their right, I was wondering whether they were right.
@Rakib:
(The Mod didn't allow this comment as well, for no obvious reasons, that made my answer incomplete. Trying second time)
"b) For an average Hindu ( I don’t mean “Hindutvas”) Partition was a vivisection of his holy-land, his sacred-place. What India-the whole of it-means to a simple, devote Hindu is a subject in itself. It goes far beyond some jingoistic patriotism. When an Indian Hindu argues against TNT he does so not because he lacks the commonsense to know of the differences with Muslims but because he is certain that he will co-exist, as his forefathers had done for centuries, with “The Other” come what may. Conceding to TNT would tantamount to negation of all his optimism, principles & upbringing. Despite a “million mutinies” if India has held together it is entirely because of ONT, where first letter stands for “One”. "
Well, this is the most ridiculous part of your comment (it is not you, as you're merely presenting the Hindus thoughts). First of all, through out the known history of the sub-continent dating back to 7,000 years, it never ever had been a single state, or empire, or kingdom (see historical maps of the sub-continent on wikimedia commons). Apart from some short periods where the bulk of the land had been under the rule of a single dynasty, it mostly remained fragmented and divided among different kingdoms, princely states, and fiefdoms (you have to separate myths from reality). Secondly, it was Hindu leadership who chose division of the holy-land over sharing power with Muslims as proposed in the Cabinet Mission Plan of 1946. Third, only a fraction of the Muslims population belongs to foreign nationalities, while most of them are converted from Hindu religion (if we can call it religion), and thus have equal rights and stakes in this holy-land as any Hindu does. Fourth, in this age of enlightenment and democracy, peoples wishes are held supreme over any false cravings of remotely placed persons. Fifth, time has proved that there is only one legitimate nation in India what Hindus think, and that is Hindus themselves. Muslims specifically are not part of that one nation. Have any doubts about this, just visit any non moderated Indian newspaper website, e.g. Times of India, and read the comments posted there. I could point to some specific pages, but I am pretty sure you can do that own you own.
@Rakib:
(Unfortunately the Mod didn't allow this comment, for no obvious reasons, that made my other comments incoherent. Trying second time)
"In a hurry to assert how Muslims are different from Hindus one forgot how one is different from one’s own too. That resulted in Bangladesh."
Dear Rakib, although your comments are mostly closer to reality, but I found a few points in all of your three comments, posted so far, where I would dare to disagree. Bengalis were themselves the staunch proponents of TNT, which rather brought the people of both the parts separated by thousands of miles closer for a common cause in the first place - for the moment save the argument whether TNT was right or wrong. Had the Bengalis had second thoughts about the correctness of TNT they would have joined India again after the creation of Bangladesh, but nothing of the sort happened. Rather most of the Bengalis consider India enemy, and had good relations with Pakistanis (Read this report "Why Bangladesh hates India?"). If we impartially examine the real causes of their separation from Pakistan, apart from the stupidities made by our dumb rulers, it was more due to their false perceptions, built and turned into belief through sinister Indian propaganda, that the West Pakistan was greatly exploiting their natural resources; which has been proved wrong over the time as the same parity still exist between the two even today; and then turned the unrest into civil war by financing, training, and arming Mukti Bahini rebels, and finally invading East Pakistan. Certainly mistakes were made by us as well, but India systematically manipulated Bengalis, and sprinkled fuel on the smothering fire, and then finally used aggression to separate East Pakistan. I don't see much role was played by the suggested flaws in TNT, rather it was mostly due to the factors I explained above. In any other country the same would have happened given the same situation. Look at the Khalistan movement. The only difference is if some stronger country had invaded and created Khalistan by force, the world had another country 30 year ago.
@Lala Gee: This should not have become a pro/anti-Partition debate; though I fear it's already happening. May be that is so because whether it was an argument, theory or ploy look at it which ever way TNT definitely led to Partition. May be it was inevitable since Lord Curzon partitioned Bengal in 1905,a full year before even Muslim League was born.
That Muslims of India are living in poor conditions (like millions of non-Muslims too whose statistical details are well known to you) is not an argument essential to justify Partition at this late stage since nobody has questioned 1947 here. One doesn't need somebody's misery to feel glory; real or otherwise. And that's what I meant that don't predicate what you believe to be success on what you think is other's failure. If you believe in a Theory that eventually created Pakistan that belief should be independent of other factors even if by happenstance Indian Muslims were doing far,far better than Pakistanis. Are Pakistanis reasonably happy, without taking Indians (Muslims or others) in to consideration for endless comparison? It may well be so. (I do realise that you may not always be the initiator of such unfair comparisons.) That should be that!
For the record, with 20/20 vision I can say that Jinnah was right without Gandhi being wrong & Partition as done deed is the correct thing to have happened.
practically it has served the majority of the Muslims of the sub-continent better than the other which apparently looked better, but only on the paper.
You are the best judge how it has served Pakistanis but I am not even aware what exactly was the "other which apparently looked better". So far as I know it meant only Status-quo, that is, continuation of "British" India as per provisions under GoI Act of 1935, which eventually became an important source for some of the laws of both countries. That document and initially Indian Constitution did not have the word "Secular" anywhere, till it was added only in 1976 by Indira G.............More later, thanks.
@gp65:
Since you haven't re-posted your detailed response to counter TNT, as you claimed you have already composed, despite passing more than 30 hours, I would now answer whatever needs to be answered, and for the rest you can read my other comments posted after your comment.
"All instances of lwabreaking are not treason though of course every instance of treason is law breaking. My comprehension and reasoning is fine. You need to check yours,"
I wonder then what was so difficult to understand this simple answer: "It is simply a matter of breaking country’s law which prohibit working for any foreign spy agency under any circumstances, irrespective of motives, cause, or reason. Any person breaking this law, doesn’t matter if that person is Dr. Afridi or myself, would have to be punished for violating it. Can you tell traffic police in US that you violated one-way-traffic just because it was convenient and time saving for you, and they must let you go without ticket. As it has on numerous occasions been already pointed out that Dr. Afridi didn’t know exactly who he was looking for, but doing only for money. Therefore, any benefit for doing general good, simply cannot be accorded to him."
"In any case I did not suggest that conviction should be on the basis of wikileaks memo but investigation by prosecution can certainly be initiated on the basis of wikileaks memo. After all memogate was initiated on the basis of an aticle in Financial Times backed by an unsigned and undated memo."
I wonder how a foreigner belonging to a hostile country can press on the other country's government what to do and what not, but still claim "My comprehension and reasoning is fine." How do you know that our agencies did not investigate those allegations, and decided not to proceed because there was not enough substantiating evidence necessary to start court proceedings.
"You are the one that said he had broken a law, not me. You should then provide reference to what the law is."
Though I know violating Red Signal, or going against One-Way traffic, or not paying utility bills, or hurting someone are all violations of law, but I don't know exactly what particular laws cover those violations. Violation of traffic laws is much more common than treason, and most people even don't know those laws, how could I or anyone else, except a professional lawyer, know all those complicated laws. Anyone demanding from an non-lawyer to provide him/her the specific laws covering a rare crime shouldn't at least claim "My comprehension and reasoning is fine. You need to check yours."
@mind control:
"If TNT was all about ‘economic and political rights’ then why harp upon interdining and intermarrying and having common religious texts and common heroes? Or are these ‘economic and political issues’?"
You think a cricket match can be won without playing cricket. Don't you? To win the support of public you have to convince them, and have to plead your case using powerful arguments. And what could be more powerful than facts and truth? This is exactly what TNT was all about, and that is why it succeeded.
"And how were the ‘economic and political’ rights of the majority of Hindus secured while being ruled by autocratic Kings belonging to a minority?"
You lost the war to Mughals/Afghans and paid the price. One option to take your revenge of those defeats would be to demolish all their remaining symbols, like Red Forte, Taj Mahal etc., as you did in case of Babri Mosque.
"And how were the ‘economic and political rights’ of Muslims threatened under a constitutional arrangement assuring equality to all?"
You think that Muslims of India should have written a simple application instead to the Hindu lordship of Congress requesting them to take care of their hapless Muslim subjects as well, till they figure out the constitutional arrangements in late 1950. How many times I must tell you before your mind starts working? Read Sachar Commission Report, or a few of the dozens of report by Human Rights Watch relating with the genocides and maltreatment of minorities in India to exactly know how well their rights are being protected through the so called constitutional arrangement.
@Rakib:
"@Lala Gee:... As you know “Secularism” is opposite of “Islamic Republic” (IR) not of TNT. In an IR Muslims are bound to be at an advantage & if your case is TNT resulting in to Partition leading to establishment of IR of Pakistan meant a better deal for Muslims there then you are on a strong wicket. How far has it succeeded in real terms is something that can be audited easily by Pakistanis themselves.”
1- I have repeatedly pointed out that TNT was merely a tool to assist in getting a separate country for Muslims of the sub-continent in order to ensure their economic and political rights are protected, in case they fail to get them in the united arrangement.
2- Jinnah was ready to remain in the united India, as late of as 1946, if Muslims were ensured that their rights would be protected in the united India.
3- In my honest opinion, Secularism is the true spirit of Islam, what I know from my knowledge of its tenets. Hence, in a truly Islamic state, every citizen is equal, and no one has advantage over the other. Isn't this also one of the basic teachings of Islam. Jinnah's speech of 11th August 1947 confirms this that he envisioned a Secular system in Pakistan where every citizen has equal rights irrespective of religion, caste, or creed.
@Rakib:
"b) For an average Hindu ( I don’t mean “Hindutvas”) Partition was a vivisection of his holy-land, his sacred-place. What India-the whole of it-means to a simple, devote Hindu is a subject in itself. It goes far beyond some jingoistic patriotism. When an Indian Hindu argues against TNT he does so not because he lacks the commonsense to know of the differences with Muslims but because he is certain that he will co-exist, as his forefathers had done for centuries, with “The Other” come what may. Conceding to TNT would tantamount to negation of all his optimism, principles & upbringing. Despite a “million mutinies” if India has held together it is entirely because of ONT, where first letter stands for “One”. "
Well, this is the most ridiculous part of your comment (it is not you, as you're merely presenting the Hindus thoughts). First of all, through out the known history of the sub-continent dating back to 7,000 years, it never ever had been a single state, or empire, or kingdom (see historical maps of the sub-continent on wikimedia commons). Apart from some short periods where the bulk of the land had been under the rule of a single dynasty, it mostly remained fragmented and divided among different kingdoms, princely states, and fiefdoms (you have to separate myths from reality). Secondly, it was Hindu leadership who chose division of the holy-land over sharing power with Muslims as proposed in the Cabinet Mission Plan of 1946. Third, only a fraction of the Muslims population belongs to foreign nationalities, while most of them are converted from Hindu religion (if we can call it religion), and thus have equal rights and stakes in this holy-land as any Hindu does. Fourth, in this age of enlightenment and democracy, peoples wishes are held supreme over any false cravings of remotely placed persons. Fifth, time has proved that there is only one legitimate nation in India what Hindus think, and that is Hindus themselves. Muslims specifically are not part of that one nation. Have any doubts about this, just visit any non moderated Indian newspaper website, e.g. Times of India, and read the comments posted there. I could point to some specific pages, but I am pretty sure you can do that own you own.
@Rakib:
"He will never ever support Pakistan on anything that may further deplete his numbers in Indian democracy."
Certainly you have every right not to support, and possibly you (Indian Muslims) didn't support TNT or Pakistan Movement as well, but still Pakistan is a reality. The important thing perhaps you are overlooking is that Kashmiris are the real owners of their lives, lands, and destiny. Only they can decide what they want and how they want to live their lives. No one living in Mumbay or Bangaluru could dictate them how they must live, or have any claim over the lands of Kashmir; the same way Kashmiris cannot dictate them under what norms they must live their lives or have claims over Maharashtra or Karnataka. It does not matter if someone supports them or not (including Pakistan), they will eventually get what they want, however, it may take a little longer. There is not a single example in the whole history of mankind, or at least I am aware of, where a stronger nation was able to perpetually subjugate a weaker nation against their wishes for ever.
"And today Pakistani politicians shed crocodile tears for them! The psychological trauma of what was perceived as betrayal or abandonment by the entire Muslim League Leadership of 1940s that did not stay on to fight for them is not what you & I may even know."
You yourself said "Some thought H/M can not live together. Some thought they could." Well we thought we couldn't, and parted our ways; and kept our borders open for several years so that whoever wanted to come, could come (my own family also migrated from East Punjab escaping blood bath, while a few paid with their life or got injured); and those who thought they could, stayed back. Now complaining and blaming us for your own decision is little unfair. It is even more unfair when we never blame you for any thing, and always vociferously try to expose any maltreatment of Indian Muslims by the Hindu majority to the world, but still we are told that we "shed crocodile tears" for your sufferings.
@Rakib:
"However, Pakistanis should not predicate their claims of success with TNT upon supposed Indian failures. .... The Theory is good if it has served Pakistan well. I have no quarrel with it though I don’t subscribe to its ramifications which can provide fillip to fissiparous tendencies. Besides I doubt whether either of the two-nations (or Quoms) were really a monolithic whole in themselves."
The Two Nation Theory had only one purpose, and that was to get a separate country for the Muslims of the sub-continent where their economic and political rights can be guaranteed, and they could live according to their aspirations. TNT was like a one time use tool and lost its utility the very moment it has successfully finished its job (Jinnah's speech of 11th August, 1947). Moreover, TNT is not a constitution or complete social code under which we must live our lives, and neither we do. So any failure on our part cannot be construed as the failure of TNT. However, the question remains that whether this theory was superior, ideally or pragmatically, than the other alternative. Looking upon the reality on the ground, I would say, practically it has served the majority of the Muslims of the sub-continent better than the other which apparently looked better, but only on the paper. Jinnah had the foresight to see what was in offing very early on. Further, Muslims played this card only after they were disappointed and disillusioned by the Hindu leadership despite their desire to live in the united India given their economic and political rights were protected (Cabinet Mission Plan, 1946). The lame excuses put forth by the Hindu leaders against CMP, and their obstinate unwillingness to accept a federal system where provinces have more autonomy as suggested in the plan - but they were willing to accept the division of the so called holy motherland - only a few years later agreed to that after the language riots in the South. Muslim League never asked more than what has been granted later to the state of Jammu & Kashmir.
Almost every country of the world is composed of multiple sub-nationalities. The only reason they are living together is just because they agree upon living together and have confidence in the system that their rights will be equally protected. However, where they think they cannot, they separate their ways as was done more recently in East Timor and South Sudan. Civilized democratic nations do it using democratic means, and the undemocratic nations do it through non-democratic means.
You say "Pakistanis should not predicate their claims of success with TNT upon supposed Indian failures". This is somewhat confusing. First of all, TNT has nothing to do with good governance and running of everyday state business as I have already explained above. Second, if you think there are no "supposed" failures on India's part, then you should say that clearly, else I assume Muslims are facing serious problems in India, and I have good reasons to believe that. If we were still part of India, chances are we would be facing the same problems, notwithstanding we have our own now. What other criteria or reference point should we use for measuring our success, or failures (much to the courtesy of Indian machinations), if we have to compare our present conditions with those in case we were still part of Indian union.
@Lala Gee:
Two Nation Theory? Which was tabled merely to protect the economic and political rights of the Muslim community of the sub-continent against the perceived threat of domination and oppression
If TNT was all about 'economic and political rights' then why harp upon interdining and intermarrying and having common religious texts and common heroes? Or are these 'economic and political issues'?
And how were the 'economic and political' rights of the majority of Hindus secured while being ruled by autocratic Kings belonging to a minority?
And how were the 'economic and political rights' of Muslims threatened under a constitutional arrangement assuring equality to all?
To simplify the matter to you- TNT was invented by those who are incapable of living as equals in any dispensation. Even in those where they constitute the majority. Look at the Constitution of any Muslim majority nation for ample proof.
Think over it.
@Lala Gee: You may want to consider that the antonym of TNT can only be ONT. Of course,no such counter Theory was propounded since status-quoists did not need it. As you know "Secularism" is opposite of "Islamic Republic" (IR) not of TNT. In an IR Muslims are bound to be at an advantage & if your case is TNT resulting in to Partition leading to establishment of IR of Pakistan meant a better deal for Muslims there then you are on a strong wicket. How far has it succeeded in real terms is something that can be audited easily by Pakistanis themselves.
Sachar Report: Constitution provides for inquiries under Commissions of Inquiry Act 1952 for course correction. Such periodic Reports cum Audits have also been conducted for Industrial workers, Farmers, Backward Castes, Dalits/Downtrodden, Women & Children, Destitute, Prisoners, Tribes, endangered communities etc. etc. Most do not give a flattering account of India. They are not meant to. But that does not mean a case for "separation" exists. An analysis & follow up of Sachar recommendations will reveal that the people really blocking some of the recommendations from being implemented are Muslim conservatives who do not accept the glaring reality that low-castes exist among Muslims. It is tough going at times!
Hindutva: You are correct that Hindutva has caused harm to Secularism. It is not only the mosque-demolition or intimidation or riots that I mean. The damage is far more subtle. They need to be countered. And yet, a nation outlives many lives. Such ups & downs are not unusual for this ancient country that has seen much worse. There can be an occasional break down but India won't break up.
@mind control:
"Moral- Differences do not mean you can not co-exist, and similarities do not mean you can."
What all that gibberish guff, which seems to be a product of an "uncontrolled" mind, has to do with Two Nation Theory? Which was tabled merely to protect the economic and political rights of the Muslim community of the sub-continent against the perceived threat of domination and oppression - which proved to be true later (hint: Sachar Commission Report) - by the overwhelming Hindu majority, only after the Hindu leaders consistently not only refused to provide any guarantee that their rights would be protected in the united sub-continent, but also vociferously opposed any implementation of such mechanisms which would guarantee them their rights (hint: "Cabinet Mission Plan, 1946" to keep India united - Jinnah accepted, but Hindu leadership rejected). If "Differences do not mean you can not co-exist, and similarities do not mean you can", then what is the criteria for co-existence? Perhaps peoples own wishes? But wait a minute, this also does not suit to your (Hindus) aspirations. You do not believe in people right to choose either. Do you? (hint: Indian Occupied Kashmir, promises of plebiscite).
Read my reply to @Rakib just above your comment for some more details.
@Lala Gee: Disproving a Theory is now irrelevant. However, Pakistanis should not predicate their claims of success with TNT upon supposed Indian failures. From thence would begin the obsession to be "Not-India" & the young may never get fully attuned to a Pro-Pak mindset. The Theory is good if it has served Pakistan well. I have no quarrel with it though I don't subscribe to its ramifications which can provide fillip to fissiparous tendencies. Besides I doubt whether either of the two-nations (or Quoms) were really a monolithic whole in themselves. Consider TNT from following pov:-
(a) From a practical angle an Indian Muslim is the biggest non-vocal critic of TNT. Also, rarely ever an Indian Muslim (non-Kashmiri) supports those that want to see Kashmir merged with Pakistan. TNT damaged Indian Muslim the most. He will never ever support Pakistan on anything that may further deplete his numbers in Indian democracy. The areas in the Subcontinent that were already overwhelmingly Muslim majority became Pakistan. Who cared for the rest? And today Pakistani politicians shed crocodile tears for them! The psychological trauma of what was perceived as betrayal or abandonment by the entire Muslim League Leadership of 1940s that did not stay on to fight for them is not what you & I may even know. A kinsman made a movie long back. "Garm Hawa", based on Ismat Chugtai's story. See it sometime to know what angst prevailed in homes back then. That's what TNT did to Muslims.
(b) For an average Hindu ( I don't mean "Hindutvas") Partition was a vivisection of his holy-land, his sacred-place. What India-the whole of it-means to a simple, devote Hindu is a subject in itself. It goes far beyond some jingoistic patriotism. When an Indian Hindu argues against TNT he does so not because he lacks the commonsense to know of the differences with Muslims but because he is certain that he will co-exist, as his forefathers had done for centuries, with "The Other" come what may. Conceding to TNT would tantamount to negation of all his optimism, principles & upbringing. Despite a "million mutinies" if India has held together it is entirely because of ONT, where first letter stands for "One".
@Lala Gee:
A. Do Christians and Muslims Interdine, Intermarry, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. (Hint think Christian food and beverage preferences)
B. Do Christians and Muslims share common Heroes? (Hint the Crusades and Andalus)
C. So are they different nations? ( Hint- do we see a Coptic Christianistan anywhere?)
D. Are Muslims asserting TNT in Christian lands? (Hint- Look at the Visa queues outside US, Canadian, Australian, European embassies).
E. Do Arabs Interdine, Intermarry, have Common Heroes and so on and so forth? Are they 'one nation'? (Hint look at the map of the world.)
Moral- Differences do not mean you can not co-exist, and similarities do not mean you can.
Moderator ET- Apart from my name, what else is objectionable? Specially in the context of Lala Gee's post.
(Dear Mod: I am totally at loss to understand why wouldn't you allow my following comment, posted twice since this morning, which is 100% according to ET's comments guidelines. Not a single word I used is against the norms of this forum, nor the contents in anyway can be termed out of line. I can assure you that moderator's agreeing with the contents of the comment is not a part of the comments guidelines. Please allow this as this is important and related with the lengthy debate going on regarding TNT.)
@Rakib:
"The issue is not of difference but of living with the differences."
Brilliant as usual. The above quoted text must be highlighted as it is the gist of the problem and the solution: "The issue is not of difference but of living with the differences". Similarly, the real issue is not the validity of the Two Nation Theory, as it cannot be theoretically proved wrong simply because it is based on facts and truth, but whether the opponents could practically provide a better alternative than TNT in the form of Secularism. However, presently all the indicators point out that they miserably failed to do so, and hence confirming the validity of the need for TNT. Whether it is the overall miserable condition of Indian Muslims, they have been systematically pushed into, in all the areas of social, financial, educational, and political life as exposed in the Sachar Commission Report, or the value of their life and dignity made cheap in several of the planned pogroms and riots against them with state collusion. Further, the rise of Hindutva parties to national level is the final nail in the coffin of the Secularism offered as alternative to TNT. Anyone supporting parties and personalities of Hindutva ideology shouldn't be opposing TNT in principle, but only if they follow any principle at all.
@gp65:
"I do not agree with you and tried giving very detailed rebuttal but it has not been published by the mods."
Just break the stuff into manageable smaller chunks and re-post. I am sure moderators will allow it. I personally request moderators to allow replies from @gp65: as some serious debate is going on.
I am amazed that one has to go such lengths, on the subject of TNT, to establish (or demolish) something that is perceivable even to a kid in the subcontinent:- Hindus & Muslims are different. But of course they are. They are the very opposites of each other in many ways. You don't need a politician to say that, good old Al-Biruni had said that in the 11th century! Sir Syed Ahmed Khan & Vinayak Savarkar too had asserted it before Jinnah. The issue is not of difference but of living with the differences. Within one country. Some thought H/M can not live together. Some thought they could. That debate resulted in Pakistan. In a hurry to assert how Muslims are different from Hindus one forgot how one is different from one's own too. That resulted in Bangladesh.
@gp65
The link you provided does not have anything of relevance to the point I made. Despite the fact that quoting Wikipedia is the most useless thing to do in an academic debate (with people trying to prove their patriotism, who can have an academic debate on ET anyway), here's a snippet from a Wikipedia entry on decline of Hinduism in Pakistan. This is being done because you tried quoting a Wikipedia article, and this is the usual practice of commentators:
In 1951, Hindus constituted 22 percent of the Pakistani population and the Hindu population was concentrated in East Pakistan which later became Bangladesh, while Hindu population in West Pakistan was less than 2%. By 1998 the proportion of Hindus was down to around 1.7 percent. This huge drop is due to the creation of Bangladesh in 1971, where the bulk of pre-1971 Pakistani Hindus resided and emigration of Hindus from Pakistan.
So you see your "factual" contributions leave a lot to be desired. Mindless enmity of another nation is not a good idea. Drop this kind of attitude and you will see people engaging you in a meaningful manner.
@Lala Gee: Allow me to respond
1- The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different: a- religious philosophies.>>True but so are Shia and Sunni or Ahmedis or Barelvis b- social customs.>>>>True c- literature>>True
But do all above make them incompatible to live together? How come so many Muslims are living in Christian/Secular US/Europe peacefully ( if i may say but the credits goes to those secular/Christians there)
2- They neither intermarry nor inter-dine together.>>> Why did Jinnah married Ruttenbai? Akbar married Jodhabai, Zareena Wahab Married Aditya Pancholi, Sharukh married Gauri. And in Pakistan despite being Muslims, are Shia marrying their daughter to Sunnis or vice verse ? Are Punjabis marrying to Pashtuns? Are Sindhis marrying to Punjabis?
3- they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.>>>>May be your definition of civilization is hazy. Are you an Arab descendant or Turkish or Persian or Mongol? Just because you have Islam as religion does not make you all those. Do Arab, Turkish , Persian consider you from their own civilization?
4- Their aspect on life are different.>>> What are your current aspect from Life? If you want a peaceful , healthy and prosperous life then let me give you the news, you share your aspect of life with 99.99 % of Human population.Unless you belong to that .01% who is dying to go to heaven to get 72 virgins by blasting themselves or force upon Sharia on the rest of the world.
5- It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.>>>> Indeed this is an issue with the Muslim Population of subcontinent. For them aggressor like Gaznavi and Ghauri are heroes who killed people to expand Islam but very few Muslims would endorse the Sufi Islam.
6- They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes.>>>>> Do you guys consider Sheikh Mujibur Rehman as your hero? He was a Muslim. Is Doctor Abddus Salam a hero to all Pakistanis? Is Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan considered a hero in Pakistan?
7- Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap.>>>>Again, fault lies with Muslims. Why would they consider the aggressors or Killers of their own ancestors as Heroes?
@gp65:
Continued from previous comment.
3- they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.
Not answered
4- Their aspect on life are different.
Not answered
5- It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.
Not answered
6- They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes.
a- different epics Not answered
b- different heroes
"Hindus and Muslims at least in India have plenty of common heroes : Ashok, Akbar, Gandhiji, Bhagat Singh, Jamshedji Tata, Mother Teresa, APJ Kalam, Azim Premji, Narayanmurthy, Ustad Bismillah Khan, Pandit Ravishankar and the list goes on"
Again, as the majority of the Muslims of the undivided sub-continent now live outside India, you just cannot represent the opinion of the Indian Muslims as the opinion of all the Muslims of the sub-continent. Ask people in Pakistan, or Bangladesh for that matter, if they really consider the above listed personalities their heroes? I can assure you won't find many. Similarly, ask Indian Hindus do they consider Hazrat Umer (the first Caliph of Muslims), Khalid-bin-Waleed, Salahuddin Ayubi, Tariq-bin-Zayed, Mohammad-bin-Qasim their true heroes. I am sure you won't find any, and the fact is there is nothing wrong in that if the Hindus don't consider these personalities as their heroes, as they have nothing to do with Hindus of the sub-continent. In contrast, they are the most revered and respected personalities of the the whole Muslim world including of the sub-continent.
c- different episodes Not answered
7- Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap.
Not answered
End
P.S. I will try to answer those points of your rebuttal which are not covered here in a separate comment, but perhaps not today.
@gp65:
Continued from previous comment.
2- They neither intermarry nor inter-dine together.
a- They neither intermarry:
Exceptions cannot be taken as a general rule. How many Muslims (in percentage) intermarry with Hindus? Probably less than 1 in 1,000. Muslims usually prefer not to marry with a person of different Muslim sect, let alone with a person of altogether different and conflicting religious beliefs. Moreover, Islam also impose some restrictions on inter-faith marriages. Muslims are allowed only to intermarry with the followers of Ibrahmic religions, i.e., Christians, and Jews only.
b- nor inter-dine together:
This is mostly a Hindus specific issue, in contrast to inter-faith marriages which is mostly Muslims specific. Although, more recently less religious Hindus of rich urban class have started mixing up with the similarly rich urban Muslim class, and occasionally they inter-dine as well on special occasions, but other than that, the situation still remains mostly unchanged. I have also read somewhere that when Gandhi went to see Jinnah in his house in Bombay, he refused to dine with him on the same table despite being served food prepared according to his faith. Even today, Hindus of higher caste don't dine with the Hindus of lower caste, and if they have to, they would use separate reserved utensils to serve them.
In your rebuttal you claimed that only one example would be sufficient to prove the claim wrong that Hindus and Muslims do not intermarry and inter-dine. This looks more like a talk of a naivete than some seriously pondered upon thought of a mature person. In any reference representing the preferences of a very large group of people on a specific issue, you always take the trend of the majority, not the exceptions, to correctly represent the majority's behavior. Let me elucidate further. If we follow your point of view, then only a few rapists would be enough to portray the the whole Indian nation as rapist. Won't they?
Continued on next comment.
@gp65:
Before proceeding on to individual points of the Two Nation Theory, lets examine the challenge part in little more detail:
"I have repeatedly challenged on this forum to prove the “Two Nation Theory” wrong in a conclusive manner, but nobody has ever responded. I also offer you the same opportunity to rebut it, covering its each and every point, using reasoning and facts, and prove it wrong"
As I clearly stated that any response must completely cover all the points of TNT and prove each and every point wrong on the basis of facts and reasoning, and only then derive a conclusive conclusion based on the corroborating individual conclusions of all the points. Lets now examine your responses against each point, and see if you met the above criteria to prove TNT wrong.
Note: I will assume your acceptance of a point which you did not challenge and offered rebuttal, instead of wasting my time to prove those points correct. However, you're welcome to give your point of view regarding any point anytime. I will keep checking at least once for the next 2 more days.
1- The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different:
a- religious philosophies - Not answered b- social customs - Not answered c- literature - Not answered
Continued on next comment.
Wonderful article, a lot of food for thought. Go ahead, young man.
@gp65:
"@Lala Gee: I did point out several flaws with your logic as it relates to Shakil Afridi. Please respond point by point. I have also responded to your chalenge on TNT , I hope you will live up to your promise."
First part of your request has already been met, and I will try to address the second part of your request as well, as @Shehzad Shah: (or whoever was using this moniker) didn't show up. Here is the text of my challenge highlighting important parts for your reference:
"I have repeatedly challenged on this forum to prove the “Two Nation Theory” wrong in a conclusive manner, but nobody has ever responded. I also offer you the same opportunity to rebut it, covering its each and every point, using reasoning and facts, and prove it wrong"
Here is breakdown of various points of TNT taken directly from the quoted text of my comment.
1- The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different:
a- religious philosophies. b- social customs. c- literature.
2- They neither intermarry nor inter-dine together.
3- they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions.
4- Their aspect on life are different.
5- It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history.
6- They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes.
7- Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap.
I will cover in detail the conditions of the challenge and each point in a series of my comments, and the rebuttal you gave, and only hope moderators will allow all of my posts. Expect this to take some time to cover all the points in details as I have to squeeze it from my other engagements.
@gp65:
"@Lala Gee: ... What you say has many flaws in it:"
"1) Breaking the law is not the same as treason. The author said there was consensus that Afridi was guilty of treason."
Sometime you amaze me with your reasoning abilities. Now "treason" is not akin to breaking law, or any violation of the laws of the land. Isn't this exactly what you're saying? As I know, treason, since the pre-historic days, has been considered the worst kind of offense a person could ever commit, and hence is most severely punished in all the countries, including USA and India.
"2) Please provide me reference to the law that prohibits “working for any foreign spy agency under any circumstances, irrespective of motives, cause, or reason.”"
For that you have to consult a proper lawyer, and after paying his fee, I am sure he would be able to give you the details of the relevant laws
"Incidentally your eminent journalist Tala Hussain was identified as a lik for Stratform (a CIA arm) by wilileaks."
Give me a single example from India or USA, where the court proceedings have been initiated only on the basis of wikileaks disclosures.
"3) Was it ever proved that he knew he was working for a foreign spy agency?"
Though he has admitted his guilt himself, and several US Senators confirmed this fact on the house floor, he has not been prosecuted for the crime so far, which has to be proved in a relevant court of law for any conviction. Treason cases are the sole prerogative of the federal government, and the legal proceedings only start if the government wish to prosecute the offenders.
"No he was never given due process of law. He was tried under FCR without being showed any chargesheet or allowed to hire any lawyer."
Any proof that the rules of FCR laws were not followed? You should better talk about the Afzal Guru case in India.
"4) He was never ever charged with breaking this law that you claim he broke."
Not being charged does not mean he didn't commit the crime. He himself admitted working for CIA.
@gp65 I will tell you why Shakil Afridi committed treason. He facilitated another country in carrying out illegal investigations/ actions on Pakistani soil (which constitutes spying). The fact that he was helping them catch Bin Laden is not relevant. He could have been helping them catch Abdul Sattar Edhi, it would still be treason. Using the same definition you pointed out. Also, Shakil Afridi's fake immunization campaign has also dealt a fatal blow to the polio eradication campaign within Pakistan. A gullible public has now been convinced by militants that the campaign is merely a front used to spy on Pakistan. Hundreds and thousands will suffer in years to come due to the action of Afridi. That alone condemns him to treason in my eyes
@Ali Tanoli "Role of front line ally also demand something from big ally to informed its front line ally about what he is doing ???"
I thought you might be following the front line ally's performance all through the years. Have you ever worndered why NATO stopped informing PA ? If you are blind and deaf to these information they you must be living in a lonely world.
Please do not expect the rational people of the wrold to be blind and deaf also.
@Alaa Qiadat
I agree completely. I hate drones because they violate our borders but after thinking a lot if Pakistani army is not capable to kill talibans then they are a unfortunate necessity. Also why do people in those areas harbor terrorists? Why do they marry them, pledge to give them safety etc.
I wish you would have just referenced Hitch and then spare some more words and space about our own issue. anyways a good piece of work and thought provoking article.
@raji: Oh wow... you completely demolished his point... good going.
@mind control:
"Correction please. Dr Afridi was not even charged with working for a foreign agency."
"Dr Afridi was not even charged with ‘TREASON’. He was charged under FCR for aiding Lashkar e Islam. So even ‘conspiracy theorists’ do not accuse Dr Afridi of ‘Treason’."
Prosecuting anyone under treason charges is an exclusive privilege of the Government of Pakistan, and it is not something that police or any other agency can do own their own. Governments do consider the repercussions of their actions and act in wise manners to avoid complications in future. No one can dictate to the government to act according to his/her whims and must initiate the treason proceedings. You should rather be happy, being his staunch supporter, that he was not tried, so far, under treason charges which carries capital punishment, and was only prosecuted for significantly less grave charges of aiding and abetting Talibans. If a US court can send some ailing lady for 86 years in jail without parole for just pointing a gun towards a US soldier and that judgment is considered perfectly legal, then Afridis 33 years imprisonment for colluding with terrorists seems more like favoritism.
@gp65: If you have no wish to reverse Partition as you claim, then why go to so much trouble to get in our face and "prove" two-nation theory is wrong? And why is it so important to you to defend Hitchens's antiPakistan propaganda?
Pakistani libsecs, take a lesson from Khan sa'ab and recognize the campaign to malign Pakistan, sow ideological confusion, and undermine our morale.
@bebarg:
Dear “bebrag”,
The United States is neither invading nor occupying any Muslim country. In recent years, Iraq, which had become a hostage to a vicious regime, was freed and given to the Iraqi people. They now have a democratically elected government. Afghanistan had become a sanctuary for terrorists who were planning and exporting their terror all over the world. We entered Afghanistan after all negotiations failed with the Taliban and they refused to give up the terrorists who killed thousands of our citizens in cold blood. There are a dime a dozen conspiracy theories but the truth always prevails. The truth speaks for itself; the United States after securing Afghanistan helped build an infrastructure of a stable government and a strong and vibrant security forces. Do you see us occupying Afghanistan or Iraq? Have we taken over their government and established our own rule? Obviously not! Then how can anyone say that we are occupiers? Our hope and wish for the region is to witness a stable and prospering Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Abdul Quddus DET-United States Central Command
@Lala Gee:
It is simply a matter of breaking country’s law which prohibit working for any foreign spy agency under any circumstances, irrespective of motives, cause, or reason. Any person breaking this law, doesn’t matter if that person is Dr. Afridi or myself, would have to be punished for violating it.
Correction please. Dr Afridi was not even charged with working for a foreign agency.
On 30 May 2012, Dr Shakil Afridi was sentenced to 33 years in prison for aiding banned militant group Lashkar-e-Islam and not for his links to the CIA, as officials had said earlier, according to a court document.[24] The court sentenced Afridi under the FCR act. According to the verdict, Afridi would serve 33 years in prison and has to pay Rs. 230,000 as a fine. He was initially detained at the Apbara headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in Islamabad before being moved to a Peshawar Central Jail in May 2012.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi
Unfortunately, you don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist to know Shakil Afridi committed treason,
Please take a seat and have some water handy. What you are going to learn may cause great shock. Ready, Steady, Here Goes,
On 30 May 2012, Dr Shakil Afridi was sentenced to 33 years in prison for aiding banned militant group Lashkar-e-Islam and not for his links to the CIA, as officials had said earlier, according to a court document.[24] The court sentenced Afridi under the FCR act. According to the verdict, Afridi would serve 33 years in prison and has to pay Rs. 230,000 as a fine. He was initially detained at the Apbara headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in Islamabad before being moved to a Peshawar Central Jail in May 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakil_Afridi
Dr Afridi was not even charged with 'TREASON'. He was charged under FCR for aiding Lashkar e Islam. So even 'conspiracy theorists' do not accuse Dr Afridi of 'Treason'.
Abroad, the Pakistan-as-wretched-state narrative sells hard not because the alternative narrative is less convincing — but because there is no alternative narrative on offer.
On the contrary, there is a powerful Pakistani narratives reverberating in Pakistani Textbooks and Talk Shows alike. The narrative goes like this.
A. Pakistan is an 'ideological state'.
B. The ideology has divine sanction and makes the followers of this ideology superior to all others.
C. Residents of the land who do not share this ideology (read Christians, Hindus, Ahmadis, increasingly Shias) are by definition less than equal.
D. The world at large (read Yahud, Hanood and Nasra and their agencies,read CIA/RAW/MOSSAD ) are conspiring against the 'ideological state and its ideology.
E. The conspirators at large are being helped by fifth columnists (read liberal fascists like PPP, MQM, ANP and Taseer and Malala etc).
F. Some valiant defenders of the ideology (read LeT, LeJ, Taliban and perhaps the mother of all agencies) are waging a 'just war' against the non-believers in the ideology.
G. Redemption of Pakistan lies in embracing a 'purer form of the state ideology' by eliminating all non-adherents and their sympathisers.
If you do not believe me, just look up the post of @Ghori above.
Moderator ET- My name is not Ghori, I hope that is not a disqualification under your editorial policy.
@DG:
"Please let me know what is Pakistan’s role as a front line ally ? I thought it was the same as Dr Shakil only that it was at the country level !!!!!"
Taking law in your own hand is not allowed in any part of the civilized world. I know this a difficult concept to grasp for Indians where in their country hooligans are freely allowed to dispense justice through pogroms, gang rapes, and arson.
"That is what all rational people in the world feel which includes many from Pakistan."
Only irrational people support breaking laws.
[ET, if you call yourself Pakistani, you must publish this, it is important]
@Ramesh Powar: There is absolutely no doubt that Pakistan and India are two entirely different nations, despite the pathetic attempts to promote akhand-baharat by you and your fellow Hindus.
Pakistan is created for Muslims and for the glory of Islam, and is based on faith, unity and discipline. Your India, full of disorderly and superstitious black natives worshipping absurd animal gods (sorry, truth hurts, and I don't believe in Political Correctness) is dirty, poor (yes, poorer than Pakistan) and illiterate, its foundation is nothing but envy of the superior value system of the True Religion.
As humans, we Pakistanis may be imperfect, and these imperfections are magnified by the plots of Hindus, and their Jew and Christian allies, who spend vast resources to undermine the psychological fabric of Pakistan, motivated by pure envy and hatred, but also fear that, once Pakistan realizes its true potential, they would have no choice but to surrender and pay tribute.
My fellow Pakistanis, have faith and dont fall prey to infidel propaganda. I am not wrong about the ideological foundation of Pakistan, or about the evil designs of the Hindus--their loud and unwanted presence here is proof of that. If, in the name of fashionable liberal-secular ethos, start siding with them, doesn't it mean that you are rejecting the very basis of Pakistan and care nothing for the glory of Islam? Think.
I appreciated Asad Rahim Khan's article because, coming from a liberal starting point, he has started to make his journey to the realization that Pakistan is a special country with a special destiny; but to realize that destiny it has to first overcome the negative propaganda of highly-skilled rhetoricians like Hitchens, and yes, it is relevant to point out that he was a dissipated and shameless creature, a well-known alcoholic. How can any Muslim have any respect for such a person?
@AC:
"The Book- The Missionary Position, which he wrote on Teresa levelled serious allegations on her, yet instead of refuting them, she looked the other way."
Thank you for pointing to this information which I didn't know before. The link you provided is not working, here is the working link.
@DG, Role of front line ally also demand something from big ally to informed its front line ally about what he is doing ???
Hope the moderator allow it to be published.
@lala Gee "It is simply a matter of breaking country’s law which prohibit working for any foreign spy agency under any circumstances, irrespective of motives, cause, or reason."
Please let me know what is Pakistan's role as a front line ally ? I thought it was the same as Dr Shakil only that it was at the country level !!!!!
That is what all rational people in the world feel which includes many from Pakistan.
This is sheer hypocrisy !!!!
Well what to make of it?! You write good fiction and make us deny what live everyday. And Hitchens? You discovered him a bit late or is it by design to escape his retorts, would have loved his rejoinder. By the way, neither Nek Mohammad nor Malala fell within our jurisdiction. They both were within the enemy terrirory which we surrendered cowardly without even putting up a decent resistence. Such things happen when you capitulate!
@AD Is Hitch say any thing for Kashmir and Palestine hard life by the hands of india and Israel? after all he is so good....
@Lala Gee: In my view, the Two Nation Theory was wrong beginning with the name itself. There are other communities living in India, besides Hindus and Muslims. Only Muslims wanted a separate nation for themselves. The name Two Nation Theory presumes that the other communities were non-existent or had no say or wish in the matter. Even if we leave the other communities aside for the sake of argument, for the Two Nation Theory's basic premise (of Hindus and Muslims being separate, mutually incompatible nations) to hold water, Hindus should have had equal objection to living with Muslims and should have supported the theory. This was not the case. In view of the above, I guess the correct name for the theory should have been 'A Separate Muslim Nation Theory'. I'll not go into the fact that the theory itself has been proved wrong twice, firstly by the large number of Muslims living in India, and secondly by the separation of East Pakistan. It is there for everybody to see.
@Gp65:
I am still waiting rebuttal from @Shehzad Shah: and will give him at least 24 hours to respond to the challenge. I would also urge you to meanwhile carefully read my comment again and make sure you haven't ignored some important aspects of TNT, and met all the conditions of the challenge.
World of contrast Pakistan no doubt in it when u come to in real world. made on islam but never saw sharia, maulana sahib say there is one islam but they don't wanna pray behind each other even one of my area mullah came back from hujj and told me he returning his prays which he performed behind Saudi imams, when I was in school teachers told us muslims are brother but out side realty is different muhajir and pathans kill each other like gajor mooli, education been told us what we are learning and cant get the jobs because official and national languages are different quaid azam cant speak Urdu but he made it national for us what a joke of the century....
@gp65
ET didn't publish my response to your comments on another thread, but let me briefly say that I have frequently provided facts to point out the issues with Indian commentators. Your response to Lalagee just proves my point. And just to quote one example, I countered your propaganda about Hindus being wiped out from Pakistan, from 22% to 2% as you claimed, but you didn't bother responding. I am sure you were well aware that a large majority of Hindu population was in East Pakistan, but based on how objective and full of facts you always are, you simply chose to ignore.
Still don't get the point of bad mouthing a dead man who isn't here to defend himself. While that in itself doesn't make Hitchens beyond criticism, he has well documented the reasons behind him immigrating to the US, his socialist partying days in Oxford and support of the Iraq war. One can read about those from the horse's own mouth in Hitch 22 instead of relying on twisted 2nd hand versions. His support for Iraq invasion rises from 2 traits of his : absolute hatred for totalitarianism (Saddam) and soft corner for Kurdish people and their struggles.
Readers would be well advised to read his article after Mumbai attacks of 2008 that he wrote in Vanity Fair I think. Anyway, the Hitch doesn't me defending him. The guy is an institution.
I have come to conclusion -
1 I hate Drone in only way since it violates our borders other than this I do not remember our agencies and security establishment has been able to kill a single Talib top noch guy! Thanks to Drone for killing Naik Mohammad, Baitullah Masood, Wailurehman and similar. 2 Those people who are harbouring these terrorist should also be killed in these drones - my personal openion everybody can hate me for this 3 Drone has nothing to do. What so ever in Taliban activities in Pakistan, From begining to now most of the drone attacks had been on Afghan talibz - TTP and umberal orgs have their agenda and you give them space they will get strong - example teera valley 4 IK will be blamed in history for confusing nation over drone co relation with terrorism and delaying nation backed operation against them in north waziristan which is inevitable!. 5 For history what happened with Naik Mohammad. watch the following show a bit in the end where birg shb the actual negotiator tell aukat/haqeeqat of both Naik Mohd and Mushara and 1st drone!
Mr Khan, IMHO, i feel that Hitchens was right on money when he wrote his book on Mother Teresa. Just because you do not share Mr. Hitchens opinion regarding Mother Teresa, without offering any reason as to why you disagree with him, doesn't make Hitchens wrong. It just makes you look stupid. The Book- The Missionary Position, which he wrote on Teresa levelled serious allegations on her, yet instead of refuting them, she looked the other way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheMissionaryPosition
@gp65: You yourself are confused. The points you stated are of no significance. The partition of Bangladesh was their own fault and the Indian's that were giving fuel to the fire (Mukti Bahini). The point of inter-dine and intermarry: Now that again is a man's personal affair. How can you hold a theory accountable for that.
The comments have made me laugh a great deal. This is hands down some of the best writing on ET these days, instead people are complaining about how Hitchens is being demonized. Author hasn't insulted a dead man, but he has disagreed with CH's always vitriolic take on Pakistan. CH, when alive, would not only disagree with dead authors, he would also insult them. As for him being right about everything, try explaining that to the war dead of Iraq. People are too concerned about the afterlife of a man who didn't believe in one.
Right from the first sentence the article us flawed. Hitchens was right about MOST things if not all, and there are plenty of people in the form of Prof Richard Dawkins and Prof AC Grayling who are continuing his legacy.
the bottom line is that reason and evidence are the basis of truth not shoddy superstition. Once a people adopt these there is no limit to their progress.
Right from the first sentence the article us flawed. Hitchens was right about MOST things if not all, and there are plenty of people in the form of Prof Richard Dawkins and Prof AC Grayling who are continuing his legacy.
the bottom line is that reason and evidence are the basis of truth not shoddy superstition. Once a people adopt these there is no limit to their progress.
If you believe that US has the right over the whole world then the Drowns are ok, the invasions and occuptions of Muslim Countries is ok. The killings captures rapes every thing is ok. But if you disagree, give people a chance to fight back in a lawful and respectable manner. The Resources of Muslims must be in control of muslims it must not be used against the muslims. If you cannot stop drones, step aside and tell the people to fight their own war, we are not concerned weather you live or die, win or lose.
Very well written .......... covered all the woes of Pakistan ................... even pointed out the solution .............. that unity is a wish and dream unless we are first reduced to ashes ........... then we may rise again!
ET mods: please allow a fact based response. There is nothing I have said that is inconsistent with your published comment guidelines.
@Lala Gee: Since you ask, what is wrong with TNT, let me respond with facts and logic. The TNT does not limit itself to saying that Hindus and Muslims are different. It goes on to say that they cannot live together because they are different. This has been proven wrong incontrovertibly because Hindus and Muslims do live together in India. They do interdine by showing some courtesy for each other's dietary preferences. They also intermarry. The heroes are not completely different. Narayanmurthy and Azim Premji are heroes for both Hindus and Muslims. APJ Kalam, Mother Teresa, Gandhiji Bhagat Singh there is absolutely no shortage of common heroes. Also TNT does not make it clear what is supposed to happen to those who are neither Hindus nor Muslims be it Sikhs, Christians, Jains, Buddists, Parsis or atheists. Do they have no claim to their land of birth? Also if Muslims were one nation, then Banladesh which actually happened o have the majority population at the time, would never have separated.
Please note - the fact that I think TNT is completely wrong does not mean that I advocate reversing partition. In fact except for a small fringe, no one in India has any interest in reversing partition.
@Shehzad Shah: (or whoever is using this moniker)
"The equivalent for Pakistan would be the PM of Pakistan apologizing to the national parliament in Dhaka and acknowledging that the Two-Nation theory was flawed"
I have repeatedly challenged on this forum to prove the "Two Nation Theory" wrong in a conclusive manner, but nobody has ever responded. I also offer you the same opportunity to rebut it, covering its each and every point, using reasoning and facts, and prove it wrong so that an apology could be rendered on solid grounds rather than just on rhetoric. Here are the main points of TNT as explained by the Quaid in his presidential address on 23rd March 1940 in Lahore. (Full speech of the Quaid)
"The Hindus and Muslims belong to two different religious philosophies, social customs, literature. They necither intermarry nor inter-dine together and, indeed, they belong to two different civilizations which are based mainly on conflicting ideas and conceptions. Their aspect on life are different. It is quite clear that Hindus and Muslims derive their inspiration from different sources of history. They have different epics, different heroes, and different episodes. Very often the hero of one is a foe of the other and, likewise, their victories and defeats overlap.”
I don't think the PM, or for that matter you yourself, posses in anyway greater intellects, foresight, and knowledge than the combined wisdom of a whole nation and her great leader, the Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah. More importantly, why in Dhaka, when the Bengalis were themselves the staunch proponents of TNT.
"that a state must not discriminate amongst citizens on the basis of personal faith & that the primary national interest of Pakistan is the welfare of all Pakistanis."
There could be no two opinions on this issue in any civilized society.
"I never knew that consuming alcohol & attending dinner parties was inconsistent with socialism."
Read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell, which is part of the school syllabus in the West and a must read for all.
Well that explains everything, does it not? I expected better reasoning from a person who has studied law, instead what we got was shoddy mischaracterization of Hitchens' well thought-out positions and character assassination of the dead man.
While Hitchens may be wrong about certain topics, what he has written about Pakistan is mostly spot-on. For far too long we have blame foreign media for portraying Pakistan in a negative light, but is their coverage wrong when we face daily bomb blasts, when we cheer and garland killers, when our nuclear-power country faces humiliating 12 hour electricity shortages? When Brevik committed atrocity, hundreds of thousands turned out to protest and denounce his rhetoric. When was the last time our nation stood resolutely against religious fascists? There will never be a single, united stand as long as our intellectuals and politicians keep blaming factors which have little or nothing to do with the present situation. Hitchens did not shy away from addressing the elephant in the room and we need someone like him with the courage and clarity to address the influence of a certain apocalyptic 'worldview' on present mayhem.
The article 'misses the forest for a tree',that has been tragedy of our so called 'intellectuals ‘who have contributed little than by adding to more chaos in an Islamic state like Pakistan. Pakistan’s present state is not of its making (totally),we had our Musharrafs and Zardaries and now Nawaz Sharifs who are not ready to look below tip of the ice Burg. The main stream media and our intellectuals as well as ulema have failed on many accounts. When a super power or powers enter your neighbourhood as close as Afghanistan and we decided to become a front-line state on a phone call, the heat and fire across the Durand line was bound to create what we see here.Afpak are twins glued by history and blood. People forget that US occupation of Vietnam created instability in most of Indo china including Cambodia,Laos,Vietnam itself, and even Thailand, the war drew China nd Russia into it indirectly and million died because Uncle Sam wanted a crusade against socialism to succeed,Afpak has similarities with Vietnam, how could the effects differ? I am neither a Taliban or drone apologist; however I tend to disagree with those intellectuals who would constantly paint the picture with one brush and one color. Let us wait for 2014(since we have already waited for past 12 years and see the prospects of peace after a tired Uncle Sam leaves Afpak,if end of war in Vietnam could usher in an era of peace in Indo China why should Afpak be an exception.
Why did you write half your column on Hitchens?
I do not support the malala issue to slightest bit. While thousands of women and children die each year in Pakistan from acts of terrorism and countless are seriously injured receiving almost no support from any organization, what merits this blatant show of mercy on one 14 year old. Apparently she has received an international treatment, followed by post recovery rehabilitation and now has even started attending school in UK, while others more critical victims of terrorism wither away in the shadows. This was nothing but a political sham to evoke international sympathy so I would request people to stop regarding it as anything more than that. I do not think she requires any further saving, maybe the light should be directed towards someone more deserving.
@Shehzad Shah: I agree with you like many. This Op Ed starts with the rant against a dead man many Pakistanis don't know about. In fact the writer has given fame and notoriety to Late Christopher Hitchens. Obviously a dead man cannot reply. The example of German Canceller bowing down with shame on the atrocities of Germans in front of Polish population says a lot about his character and statesmanship. On the contrary we continue to deny our atrocities against Bengali let alone apologizing and showing remorse.
Well done Asad Rahim. I am very impressed; your thoughts come from your heart with reality and life experiences. Please dont mind; some people get upset and dont have the guts to appreciate good thoughts.
@Chris Sadler: Agree. The author bad mouths Hitchens. Then goes on to show that hitchens was absolutely right about Pakistan. Though he does admit Pakistan makes it easy for critics what was the point in bringing up Hitchens personal traits? Regards
Youthful idealism of the author is refreshing but you just have to read the other opinion piece in today's ET by the son of a murdered judge to realize that Pakistans faultlines are so many, so endemic and so corrosive that these issues will take several decades to get resolved if they get resolved at all... those like you who want to do positive things will just get swept away by the chaos.
So you agree Hitchens was right. You just wish he wasnt and tHat there was an alternate explanation.
of course if u dont agree with hitchens than he must be wrong,because we all know honrable lord sir asad rahim khan knows everything, he will not rest until he proves that a dead man was worng on everything even tho soo much of the world respected him and agreed with him. wow your articles are getting worse everytime.
ET where is my comment? You are revealing your liberal secular bias.
You don’t have to be a ghairat brigadier to know that drone strikes are destroying our soul
You are starting to sound like a taliban-apologist ! Drone strikes are targeting those that are killing our own in thousands !
I am still curious, why are you angry at Hichens again? Because he pointed how some flaws in Pakistani "narrative" or is it because he was after all --- right? Oh btw, what is the Pakistani narrative, I never could remember it? How did Zia, the favorite Islamist dictator of Pakistan put it --- "not India", isn't that right? Read the newspapers, there somewhere you will find the narrative, not in any imaginative fiction like two nation theory and other bumkins like that.
No wonder Pakistan is in trouble, with minds like this one. Hitch was bang on when it comes to many things especially God Mother Teresa and Pakistan. After all, this is where they shoot school girls.
You are a noble soul, Asad Rahim Khan. Only you can forgive the Hindus for what they did, and keepdoing, to us. But the harsh truth is that notorious villains like Hitchens were, and continue to be, motivated by sheer jealousy of our great and wonderful country and people, and are very likely in the pay of RAW and Mossad who spare no effort to malign Pakistan.
Forget forgiveness, it is time to remind these coward God-haters that Pakistan is the only Islamic nuclear power, and has the potential to bring the world to its knees, begging for mercy.
I am very impressed by your English, which is anyday better than that of hypocrite Hitchens. Please lead our countryto the greatnessthat is its rightful due.
I hope you realize that Malala was condemned by a large section of Pakistani public who came up with different conspiracies to discredit her. In a country where everything is based on religion and there are strong conflicts between different sects (almost half of Sunni's consider Shias non-muslims), i doubt peace can ever exist.
I never knew that consuming alcohol & attending dinner parties was inconsistent with socialism. Hitchens was too full of himself, but he was also one of the finest writers & speakers of the English language in recent times. I'd say his description of Pakistan as a person is right on the money. After mentioning Willy Brandt's act of atonement your lesson drawn is agreement on reform? Willy Brandt's act wasn't an outcome of agreement; there was no agreement in Germany on the need for atonement. It was the act of a statesman who had the courage to pull his nation's face towards the painful truth of its past. The equivalent for Pakistan would be the PM of Pakistan apologizing to the national parliament in Dhaka and acknowledging that the Two-Nation theory was flawed, that a state must not discriminate amongst citizens on the basis of personal faith & that the primary national interest of Pakistan is the welfare of all Pakistanis.
Now this is what I call straight from the heart - your words are convincing and heart-breaking.
So you basically see the problem with Pakistan, and us Paksitanis. And I tell you its not of Hitchens's making. What is your point then?
This was a really refreshing read. You, my friend, have distilled the problem down to its core. Few countries are so self-critical while being so miserably stuck in inaction. Most are operating on the extreme, whether it's the "blame EVERYTHING on the CIA" brigade or the "the West can do no wrong/support shady militant groups" brigade... obviously, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The CIA has a history of supporting shady militant outfits and yet not every terror problem is fueled by them. Anyway, again, great read --- and while we do make the job of our critics much easier, we also suffer from a curious number of critics in the West that seem to pop up when they need to apply some political pressure on us. There is a staggering amount of "good news" generated in this country that foreign (or even local, for that matter) publications would be hard-pressed to pick up and print on the front page. But bad news --- oh boy.
Pakistan has brought it upon itself. If it had control over its rural tribal areas, there would have been no drone attacks (afterall US doesn't send attack drones to Lahore or Karachi). Next, you've raised the point about why guys like Hitchens foul mouth Islam when something nasty happens in countries like Pakistan. To me this is also due to the choices made by Pakistan- trumpeting itself as forte of Islam and a leading Islamic state. If Pakistan would have chosen the path of separating the religion from business of state, nobody in his right mind would have believed that ills of Pakistan are due to Islam. If you hold something very dear to your heart then you should think twice before making it a part of Power Politics and state business.
very sad but very great writing from the centre of heart......
He was right about the non-existence of god.
A poetic masterpiece rendered in prose by Asad Rahim Khan. A portrait Rembrandt would have sketched was he living today and asked to paint today's Pakistan. Further Affiant Sayeth Naught.
Beautifully written