‘Sab ka Kashmir’

Published: June 21, 2013
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The writer is a journalist in Delhi. His work has appeared in The Christian Science Monitor, The New York Times International Weekly, The Friday Times, Rediff, Hindustan Times, among other publications. He is a member of the South Asian team blog Kafila.org and tweets @DilliDurAst

The writer is a journalist in Delhi. His work has appeared in The Christian Science Monitor, The New York Times International Weekly, The Friday Times, Rediff, Hindustan Times, among other publications. He is a member of the South Asian team blog Kafila.org and tweets @DilliDurAst

Unlike the ‘90s, it does not seem to be India’s position that Kashmir is not a central issue between India and Pakistan, or that it won’t negotiate with Pakistan about Kashmir. Pakistan doubts India’s intentions to actually talk Kashmir, but can it really blame India if events like 26/11 halt a peace process just when it picks up?

There are four possible solutions to Kashmir.

The first is a military solution. India is unlikely to use this, as India has not shown any interest in acquiring any part of the Jammu and Kashmir (J&K) state held by Pakistan. On the contrary, Indian leaders would be all too happy to convert the Line of Control into an international border. Pakistan has not only actively claimed the Indian-held J&K, it has used the military option to try and acquire it. The prize seems to be Indian-held Kashmir Valley, which Pakistan has tried to capture militarily in 1948, 1965, 1989 (by aiding a popular armed rebellion) and the 1999 Kargil incursion was also ultimately about the Kashmir Valley. Even though Kargil happened after the two countries went nuclear, those bombs have made negligible the likelihood of settling Kashmir by conventional war. Neither did the strategy of aiding a popular rebellion with arms and training yield any territory, though Pakistan has kept this option alive.

The second option, formalising status quo, favours India, because India loses nothing that it wants. Unable to win ‘loyalty’ from the people of the Kashmir Valley, India has no desire to rule over Mirpur or Gilgit, the way Pakistan wants to fly its flag in Srinagar. Any neutral observer will agree that turning the Line of Control into an international border and moving on would be a good idea; even many Pakistanis have asked if the price they have paid for wanting Kashmir has been worth it. But precisely because it has paid a huge price for Kashmir, simply letting go is not an option.

The third option shows greater maturity in realising that J&K is not a toy but a place with people and those people have paid a greater price for the conflict than have Indians or Pakistanis put together. This option is to hold a plebiscite with not two but three options: India, Pakistan and freedom. The numbers are stacked such that I think a majority of the people will choose to be free. The right to self-determination is a basic human right, but neither Pakistan nor India are likely to agree to letting go of the territory altogether.

The fourth is a win-win solution that can make Indians, Pakistanis, Kashmiris and non-Kashmiri residents of J&K happy. Not only is this possible, it has been discussed before. This is what has come to be known as the Four Point Formula. These four points are an open border, local autonomy, a joint mechanism to allow both sides of J&K to work on matters of common interest and demilitarisation. The seemingly simple idea is a radically new one. It amounts to working towards shared sovereignty. In other words, ‘Kashmir’ can belong to India, Pakistan and also itself, all at the same time.

While the European Union is an obvious example of the new way of thinking about borders, more pertinent for Kashmir is the South Tyrol province in northern Italy, which shares its sovereignty with Italy and Austria. Shared sovereignty as a solution to the J&K conflict is a practical idea, not a romantic one. What is romantic is the Indian hope that the Kashmiris will one day stop demanding azadi, or the Kashmiri idea that their azadi will drop like manna from heaven, or Pakistani wishful thinking that it will liberate Kashmir one day.

Whether or not the political and military leadership of India and Pakistan are ready for such a solution, the people of J&K, Pakistan and India must give it serious thought. General (retd) Pervez Musharraf and Manmohan Singh may not have been able to do it, but it is the only viable solution. We must all propagate the idea of “Sab ka Kashmir” as the key that will unlock peace in South Asia.

Published in The Express Tribune, June 22nd,  2013.

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Reader Comments (129)

  • Ali
    Jun 21, 2013 - 11:18PM

    “It amounts to working towards shared sovereignty. In other words, ‘Kashmir’ can belong to India, Pakistan and also itself, all at the same time”

    Biggest Joke of the century!!!

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  • 3rdRockFromTheSun
    Jun 21, 2013 - 11:22PM

    @ Author
    Could you pass me the peace pipe after you’re done? Seems to be some good stuff you’re smoking!!!

    Solutions like what you propose work only when there is a basic level of trust. After WW II, Europe was so devastated, that the countries had no option but to trust each other (there also was the threat of the Commie takeover by USSR, that brought them together) – but when you have “…Pakistan has tried to capture militarily in 1948, 1965, 1989 (by aiding a popular armed rebellion) and the 1999 …”, that trust is missing, and your proposal is not realistic.
    What you also don’t account for is the millions of Hindus forcibly displaced from their homes in the K valley – who speaks for them?
    So India being in an advantageous position is unlikely to budge. Like it or not, option 2 is the only peaceful way out.

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  • rajat
    Jun 21, 2013 - 11:26PM

    The 2nd option i.e. formalisation status quo is the best solution whenever it happens. No border or lightly painted border is an absurd idea since Pak establishment will only consider it an interim arrangement towards a final solution. Pakistan has around 80-85% of its Muslims craving for Islamic Sharia law and blasphemy law; it has a very high level of social intolerance. A loose border will open the floodgates for Islamic radicalism into Kashmir and India, as if we don’t already have great problems with that. There is no comparison with South Tyrol, Italy and Austria. We have to stick to the ground realities of societies that live here in South Asia.

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  • Vikrant
    Jun 21, 2013 - 11:57PM

    @Ali:
    Indeed! Even from a staunchly Indian perspective, I echo the SAME SENTIMENTS as yours! This goes on to prove (esp to Pakistani readers) that India too (like Pakistan) has a lot of chaps that thrive in Living in a “Fools Paradise” and in TOTAL DENIAL. I have been commenting about the hilarity and comedy in articles written by Pakistanis in this space… it is almost a “sight for sore eyes” to see the same kind of piece being emulated by an Indian (at least it would seem so from his name!) — and the likes of others like Arundhati Roy also, go on to prove that India is not that far behind Pakistan (or perhaps is it ahead?) in the area of political fantasy/comedy viz-a-viz possible so-called “Solution to the Kashmir Dispute” …

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  • Ali Tanoli
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:04AM

    One wife two men may be in west but not in east mr what ever.

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  • Jat
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:05AM

    Author: Who gave you the right to make such outlandish offers and proposals on behalf of India ? Kashmir is not your father’s personal property for you to share or give away.

    Kashmir is, and will always be, a part of mother India.

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  • Jat
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:07AM

    Kashmir belongs to India, can only belong to India, and will always belong to India.

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  • brajanarayan
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:17AM

    Foolish statement from a crazy writer.

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  • Indian Catholic
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:21AM

    I read you loud and clear, Shivam, and I do not have to sympathize with you as I am a minority.
    .
    Why not an out-of-the box-formula? The Tibet formula. After all, the higher-than-mountains friend of Pakistan, China, is familiar with it,
    ,
    Why not let me, who is a minority within a minority, acquire my own property in Kashmir so that I can own my houseboat and do some fishing on the Dal Lake? In the process I might do something un-dull.

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  • BlackJack
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:32AM

    Not fair – what about China? It should belong to China too.

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  • PakArmySoldier
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:47AM

    You’re preaching to the choir here. I don’t think any pragmatic Pakistani would object to such a solution. I suggest you convince your compatriots first.

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  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:58AM

    @Author:

    “Shared sovere­ignty as a soluti­on to the J&K confli­ct is a practi­cal idea, not a romant­ic one.”

    Not at all. Kashmir is neither the property of Pakistan, nor the property of India, but only of the Kashmiri people. Who are India and Pakistan to decide and divide Kashmir between themselves and try to further perpetuate their subjugation. We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people. If they want freedom, Pakistan shouldn’t have any problem in granting them. If they choose India, even then we shouldn’t have any objection. And if they wish to join Pakistan, they are most welcome. The only just and lasting solution is a free and fair plebiscite, nothing else.

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  • Avtar
    Jun 22, 2013 - 1:00AM

    Interesting observation. I see option 4, free trade, movement of people, and other local issues but no sovereignty. This could apply to Punjab as well as where the management of water would help both sides.
    Following the US pullout of Afghanistan in 2014, the pressure will mount on the Western front of Pakistan especially KP (formerly NWFP) to unite together. The Uzbeks, Hazaras, and Tajiks are not going to be dominated by the Pathans. Afghanistan will more likely to become like Iraq – three separate ethnic groups: Shias, Sunnis and Kurds.

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  • Babloo
    Jun 22, 2013 - 1:29AM

    You cannot share anything with Pakistan. You share things with people you trust. So the idea while good is impractical and harmful.

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  • Mir
    Jun 22, 2013 - 1:47AM

    The right to self-determination is a basic human right, but neither Pakistan nor India are likely to agree to letting go of the territory altogether.

    India is the only one that is afraid of a referendum, including one that makes Kashmir neither Pakistan nor India. Sadly, maturity is lacking. The 4-point formula is a start to a solution, but Kashmiris will and never should stop campaigning for their right of self-determination.

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  • a_writer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:01AM

    The four point formula is the most ideal choice -no, not as a solution to the Kashmir issue.

    It is an ideal choice for the terrorists – it makes it so much easier for them to come into India to cause death and destruction

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  • np
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:47AM

    @Lala Gee: “Kashmir is neither the property of Pakistan, nor the property of India, but only of the Kashmiri people. Who are India and Pakistan to decide and divide Kashmir between themselves and try to further perpetuate their subjugation”.

    You are aware that the plebiscite mentioned in the UN resolution only gives two options – India and Pakistan not independence?

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  • Observer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 3:21AM

    The author misses the option five- India doesn’t have to do anything. It can let Pakistan spend its resources on a useless and un-winnable “cause” and in the process destroy its economy and allow the society to become more radicalize.

    The inclination and outlook of Kashmiris have gone through a sea change in the past 20 years. Having witnessed Pakistan steadily descend into economic instability, religious extremism and terrorism, a vast majority of Kashmiri Muslims, including former staunch supporters such as Syed Ali Geelani, no longer see their future with Pakistan. This applies also to the Pak occupied Kashmir, Gigit/Baltistan. Especially the Shia in these areas want independence from Pakistani rule.

    The bottomline is that Pakistan no longer holds any “Kashmir aces” other than the use of terrorism. Indans can just sit back and watch the Pakistani drama unfold.

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  • DKBose
    Jun 22, 2013 - 3:21AM

    Fantastic article written by a discerning author. Who are India and Pakistan to decide and divide Kashmir between themselves? To try to further perpetuate their subjugation? Let me be clear: We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people. We just want to make the reasonable claim Kashmir belongs to Pakistan, just as India did for sixteen thousand years once it was invaded by somebody a chin bigger than dav whatmore’s breasts. Secondly, who are India and Pakistan to decide and divide Kashmir between themselves? To try to further perpetuate their subjugation? Let me be clear: We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people!

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  • zeb
    Jun 22, 2013 - 3:31AM

    There is no justification for killing anyone, so far Kashmiries has been dying for the Azhadi and Kashimr belong to Kashmiries neither to Pakistna or India otherwise we all will be fooling oursellves?

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  • Anand
    Jun 22, 2013 - 3:46AM

    For those who may not know the Author, Shivam Vij is one of the most visible face of Kafila, an website that champions the causes of all sorts of rights, for humans to animals and all that come in between. They also hate everything about the Indian state, regardless of which party is at the helm. They are allergic to the word ‘Hindu’, unless the context is Hindu bashing.They are great champion of freedom of speech and the right to descent, as long as you tow their line i.e.to say, you scratch their back. Their comment section is a sight to behold, a mutual appreciation society at its best.
    I recommend all Pakistani readers to make Kafila their home page. You will be delighted to no end.

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  • Rashid
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:00AM

    @Lala Gee

    Possession is half the law, as the saying goes. Unfortunate but that’s the reality. But there is one way to press India into giving Kashmiris independence. We can bring the international pressure on India too, by giving complete independence to AJK first. Think about it.

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  • leela
    Jun 22, 2013 - 5:55AM

    For those clamoring to be part of Pakistan, their wishes should be granted by depoting them with a one way ticket to their paradise. India should do what the taller than Himalayas, deeeper than Indian ocean friend, China does in Xinjiang and Tibet (populate these areas with Han Chinese) and use of deadly force.

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  • jssidhoo
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:02AM

    We have not made any progress on the first three in the last 66yrs so even though the fourth may seem like a romantic idea i think we must give it a thought .

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  • Arijit Sharma.
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:12AM

    @author: ” … While the European Union is an obvious example of the new way of thinking about borders, more pertinent for Kashmir is the South Tyrol province in northern Italy, which shares its sovereignty with Italy and Austria. … “

    The author forgets that India and Pakistan are not part of the same Union. To draw a parallel of sorts with South Tyrol, Chandigarh, serves as the capital of both Haryana and Punjab, both states in the Indian Union.

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  • Arijit Sharma.
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:14AM

    @DKBose: ” … We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people! … “

    Are there Bengali Hindus in Pakistan ?

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  • Sandip
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:15AM

    @Lala Gee: “Who are India and Pakistan to decide and divide Kashmir between themselves and try to further perpetuate their subjugation. We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people.”
    Lala Gee, you are underestimating the hunger of your army for more land. After all, where will they build the new colonies once they are done with existing Pakistani areas. Ask them, they will tell you they have grand plans for a DHA in Srinagar. They might offer you a plot as well on discount if you toe their line.

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  • naeem khan Manhattan,Ks
    Jun 22, 2013 - 7:39AM

    I am from Mardan Pakistan and my dad and uncle volunteered to fight in Kashmir in 1948, it seems to me that the third solution is more viable because India has promised in the UN that a plebiscite was to be held in Kashmir and I have been hearing this same tune for the last 60+ years. I would even go as far to let the people of Kashmir have their own free sovereign country and be a member of the UN. Yes, Pakistan has to relinquish parts of Kashmir and India will also vacate the territory. Pakistan and India should also agree to guarantee Kashmir’s sovereignty and no interference in their internal affairs. This is the solution we should be looking for now.

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  • Naveen
    Jun 22, 2013 - 8:15AM

    Pakistan should lead the way by proposing a similar scheme for GB and Mirpur region. Just because India has taken a Gandhian approach towards its claims does not mean it has abandoned its claims (its just that we are wise enough not to make hullabulla about our claims, ground reality is what counts).

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  • Observer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 8:28AM

    The author misses the option five- India doesn’t have to do anything. It can let Pakistan spend its resources on a useless and un-winnable “cause” and in the process destroy its economy and allow the society to become more radicalize.

    The inclination and outlook of Kashmiris have gone through a sea change in the past 20 years. Having witnessed Pakistan steadily descend into economic instability, religious extremism and terrorism, a vast majority of Kashmiri Muslims, including former staunch supporters such as Syed Ali Geelani, no longer see their future with Pakistan. This applies also to the Pak occupied Kashmir, Gigit/Baltistan. Especially the Shia in these areas want independence from Pakistani rule.

    The bottomline is that Pakistan no longer holds any “Kashmir aces” other than the use of terrorism. Indans can just sit back and watch the Pakistani drama unfold.

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  • Abhijit
    Jun 22, 2013 - 8:41AM

    Make LOC as an international border

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  • Umar Jaan
    Jun 22, 2013 - 8:50AM

    It’s interesting to see an Indian author writing on a Pakistani portal to suggest ways over how to solve Kashmir. But anyways, being a Kashmiri, I can tell you with authority that Kashmir was there when both Pakistan and India didn’t even exist. These countries were not even a dream when Kashmir existed. So any solution should satisfy us not Pakistan and India. I am sure Pakistan has no problem with Kashmir’s independence because free Kashmir will have brotherly relations with Pakistan not with India. And who will forget in Kashmir what Pakistan has done for it. It’s Pakistan which has kept Kashmir dispute alive in every international and regional forums. These days we are being told that Pakistan is in a mess and India’s isn’t. Accepted. But Pakistan was never like this a decade ago. It’s GDP was more than India in 1994. Those years India was seeking loans from IMF and had mortgaged Gold with Iran. Pakistan will recover. And Indian’s telling Kashmiris to think twice on Pakistan must not forget the sacrifices of Pakistan. India did nothing in Kashmir, corrupted some power hungry elites, and militarized the entire region. We see India as an enemy here and Pakistan our guardian.

    Umar
    (Srinagar-disputed Kashmir)

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  • Rafi Ka Deewana
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:26AM

    Kashmir is a mirage which will ultimately cause the demise of Pakistan as we know it. Pakistan should by now realize that all its present problems can be attributed to Kashmir. It should let the ego go, be pragmatic, accept the LOC and move on to save itself and its citizens.

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  • Observer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:48AM

    ET Mods, my post directly addresses the points made by the author and points out an important option that he missed in his article. Everything I said is based on facts though not favorable to Pakistani view. Please allow my post.

    The author misses the option five- India doesn’t have to do anything. It can let Pakistan spend its resources on a useless and un-winnable “cause” and in the process destroy its economy and allow the society to become more radicalize.

    The inclination and outlook of Kashmiris have gone through a sea change in the past 20 years. Having witnessed Pakistan steadily descend into economic instability, religious extremism and terrorism, a vast majority of Kashmiri Muslims, including former staunch supporters such as Syed Ali Geelani, no longer see their future with Pakistan. This applies also to the Pak occupied Kashmir, Gigit/Baltistan. Especially the Shia in these areas want independence from Pakistani rule.

    Also it is important to note that Kashmir, both Indian and Pak administered, is made up of Hindus, Sikhs, Shia, Sufis and Sunnis. These people all have very different preferences as to independence, Pakistan or India.

    The bottom-line is that Pakistan no longer holds any “Kashmir aces” other than the use of terrorism. Indians have time on their side and can just sit back and watch the Pakistani drama unfold.

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  • Observer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:51AM

    @DKBose:

    “We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people!”

    Good! Then all Pakistan needs to do is give independence to AJK, Gilgit/Baltistan and the norther areas they control.

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  • Well Wisher
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:54AM

    “The numbers are stacked such that I think a majority of the people will choose to be free. The right to self-determination is a basic human right…”
    So why not give independence to Kashmir?

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  • Anil
    Jun 22, 2013 - 10:05AM

    @Author: “Sab ka Kashmir”??????? You might next say, just undo the partition “Sab Ka SubContinent”. What rubbish.

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  • Shoaib
    Jun 22, 2013 - 10:19AM

    This is India’s ploy to get hold over Azad Kashmir

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  • karan dhar
    Jun 22, 2013 - 10:27AM

    If Mr Vij has visited Kashmir at all, he must have noticed the change happening there (the kind of Wahabi Islam which not long ago tore apart the secular ethos of Valley). I live in Jammu and we have rented two rooms of our house to three Kashmiri Muslim college students. Frankly speaking, Jammu is the only place where they can do whatever they want. They can dress up in jeans and sleeveless tops. But when i visited their home in Srinagar, they were not allowed to even open their hijab inside their house. I would also like to ask Mr Vij about what happens to minorities in Kashmir if it becomes free, Can Mr Vij ensure Pandits and Sikhs that Muslims are not going to hound you. I suggest you to visit Kashmir once more and this time with your own money and see the burn and looted houses of Hindus.

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  • Jun 22, 2013 - 10:28AM

    Lets consider the 4th option, shall we.

    Lets say the Taliban or any other Islamist Govt takes over Pakistan and implement Saudi-Type Sharia.

    Since, Kashmir is held by all, should Sharia be imposed over the entire J&K, considering they are Muslim majority too? Wouldn’t that go against the grains of the Indian Constitution? Allowing people’s hands to be chopped off for theft, can such precedence ever be allowed in India.

    There is only one viable solution to Kashmir: Give Kashmiris education, allow them to integrate into India.

    If your Son is working in Infosys in Bangalore, sending you a part of his hard-earned money, you will be less inclined to support any anti-India activity.

    If your Cousin is making a fortune in his company, set-up in Mumbai, you will begin to love India too.

    Both the above 2 scenarios are unthinkable in Pakistan, or even self-ruled Kashmir.

    Give them education, quality education, let them explore the length and breadth of India. That IS the solution.

    I have met Kashmiris in my workplace. Infact, been to a wedding of a Kashmiri-origin family. They were Indians, their kids will be Indians, their grandchildren will be Indians.

    Problem solved. Kashmiris are inherently less-inclined to go the way of Pakistanis with Political Islam. This solution will work. India offers Freedom, Wealth, Pride and Happiness. None of which Pakistan nor Kashmir on itself can get.

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  • Jun 22, 2013 - 10:32AM

    @Lala Gee:

    Why hold a Plebiscite, when India is holding Elections every 6 years, at the state level and 5 at the Central level in Kashmir?

    If people wan’t something, they will talk through their Representative, THEY elect. CM Abdullah is the representative of the people of J&K, he is pro-India, that means the people are too.

    If you think otherwise, you are welcome to hold such plebiscites in various places in Pakistan. In India(when I say India, I mean Kashmir too), Indian Constitution is supreme. That is the final word.

    If any one has anything to say, they can do so via periodically held Elections.

    You do believe in Democracy, don’t you?

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  • Anand
    Jun 22, 2013 - 10:39AM

    For those who may not know the Author, Shivam Vij is one of the most visible face of Kafila, an website that champions the causes of all sorts of rights, for humans to animals and all that come in between. They also hate everything about the Indian state, regardless of which party is at the helm. They are allergic to the word ‘Hindu’, unless the context is Hindu bashing.
    They are great champion of freedom of speech and the right to descent, as long as you tow their line i.e.
    to say, you scratch their back. Their comment section is a sight to behold, a mutual appreciation society at its best.
    I recommend all Pakistani readers to make Kafila their home page. You will be delighted to no end.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 10:54AM

    @Rashid:

    “We can bring the international pressure on India too, by giving complete independence to AJK first. Think about it.”

    And what if they really want to join Pakistan, or India? How would you know?

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  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:01AM

    @np:

    “You are aware that the plebiscite mentioned in the UN resolution only gives two options – India and Pakistan not independence?”

    It is only an addition of a single line in the ballet paper. Why to make it an issue, if the intentions are right, that is Kashmiris are the owners of their life and lands. Why should UN have any problem with that?

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  • Believer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:08AM

    Unfortunately I don’t see any solution to the Kashmir conflict as long as Pakistan is seen as a threat by the Indians. Indians have no trust and confidence in Pakistan and that’s the real problem. Until there’s trust between the two countries, no hope for any Kashmir solution.

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  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:13AM

    @Rashid:

    “Possession is half the law, as the saying goes. Unfortunate but that’s the reality.”

    Even if it is reality, it is still half the reality, and only applies to land and property. Considering live people as property has long over gone. However, the case of world’s biggest democracy (hypocrisy) is different, who still thinks that people can be made slaves in these days of enlightenment.

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  • harkol
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:32AM

    This author must read professor “Aleksandar Pavkovic” who is an authority on concept of self-determination and issues associated with it.

    It is a human right, but there is also human rights issues involved with the minority rights. Just because a majority wants to secede, it doesn’t mean it is a right outcome.

    Look at Pakistan, it was created after ‘majority’ of muslims in these areas wanted a separate nation. The result, within 50years minorities amounting to 20% are all but wiped out. Driven out by fear, discrimination and slow religious ethnic cleansing. These families would’ve lived in that areas for thousands of years. Their human rights didn’t matter!!!

    Similarly, while ‘self determination’ sounds like a logical idea, it has implications that are far more significant. Just because Germans voted and decided by majority to vote in Nazis who cleansed jews, it doesn’t mean they had a ‘human right’ to do so!!

    Kashmir is not a geographic issue anymore. It is a religious/ethnic one. large number of Pandits were pushed out by terror, and remaining ones too will be cleansed if ‘self-determination’ is allowed.

    As Mahatma Gandhi said – It is not good enough to be wanting to be a free nation, one must show oneself to be worthy of such ‘freedom’. Sadly Kashmiri leadership today is nothing but a religiously intolerant one, not deserving of ‘freedom’ they seek.

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  • MSS
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:35AM

    Converting the LOC with minor adjustments either way is the only doable solution. You may wait for any number of government changes, skirmishes, wars, years, arms and generations of people for the same outcome – unless an earthquake completely change the geography of the region.

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  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:38AM

    @Jat:

    “Kashmir belongs to India, can only belong to India, and will always belong to India.”

    And then someone suddenly switched on the light. LOL.

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  • Moved On
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:43AM

    pakistan must stop ranting over kashmir to be decided by the UN resolution…in the case they are so adamant, and without saying ignorant, they must ask their govt. to pull out their forces from their occupied kashmir, only after which india shall conduct the plebiscite for the entire region… this is not my suggestion…this is wat the UN resolution says for a start…

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  • harkol
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:44AM

    @Lala Gee:

    The whole requirement for ‘plebescite’ arises from the non-binding UN Resolutions. So, to modify that is not an option. India can’t create a nation in the midst that will go Afghanistan way, without having proper power to defend itself, becoming a bee-hive for terrorists created, nurtured and supported by Pakistan.

    Besides, Kashmiris are already the ‘owners’ of their life and lands, that is why the autonomy of Indian Kashmir is ensured by constitution of India. The only problem in Kashmir is the virulent ideology of Islamic nationality. Kashmiris may be unhappy, but so are people from Tamilnadu or so many other states of India. But, they get to have their govt. and a say in central govt.

    Except – the geographical integrity of India as defined by Indian constitution can’t be questioned by any state (even if they are in majority). The same principle applied when Abraham Lincoln disregarded the secession of Confderate states from USA. They fought a civil war, and retained the geographical integrity.

    Kashmiris can fight if they so wish and try to break that integrity. It wont’ just be granted by India. India will fight with all its might, and will defeat all those who are opposed to its integrity – just like USA did.

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  • Hunter Punter
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:51AM

    @Author. The idea is absolutely unworkable. Besides, Pakistan is currently struggling for its survival with the onslaught of domestic terrorism and mayhem. Why would Kashmiris and Indians agree to loose borders, and allow the same mad jihadi suicide bombers, who are daily bombing and killing Pakistanis, to roam freely into India? The above solution is workable in a peaceful and prosperous environment, not when there are sectarian wars in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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  • Jun 22, 2013 - 12:04PM

    @Umar Jaan:

    I am sure your feelings are genuine, but in a Democracy you speak through elections and representatives. Until and unless your representative makes your demand for you and speak your tongue, you will be considered a inconsequential opinion holder.

    There are many in J&K who loathe being part of Pakistan or independent. They are in power now, because majority of the people voted for them.

    Your opinions don’t matter. You are a minority.Recommend

  • Aschraful Makhlooq
    Jun 22, 2013 - 12:16PM

    Kashmir is only Kashmiris’ never India’s or Pakistan’s if provided that Kashmiri people are given plebiscite right to choose it voluntarily and freely without any hidden or open pressure in any forms and manifestations from (Pakistan and India) both countries that either the Kashmiri people want to affiliate with India or Pakistan or want their separate independent state with its own constitution and boundaries like the other independent countries of the world on the world’s map and Pakistan and India both countries’ governments must have to honor and respect the Kashmiri people’s choice practically,sincerely,intentionally and honestly without any hesitation and mental depression/stress without showing any objections…….

    Recommend

  • Milind
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:31PM

    @Umar Jaan – “But anyways, being a Kashmiri, I can tell you with authority that Kashmir was there when both Pakistan and India didn’t even exist

    For your kind information Kashmir was Sharda Peeth long before Islamic invaders (esp. Aurangzeb) overran and pillaged it, brutally killing and converting Hindus. So if you have to delve in the past to build your case, this doesn’t hold water.

    @Lala Jee – “We Pakistanis don’t want to impose a solution which is not acceptable to Kashmiri people. If they want freedom, Pakistan shouldn’t have any problem in granting them

    That’s a noble though. Unfortunately your army/ISI establishmen doesn’t seem to think likewise. they feel Kashmir is only for Pakistan. Its high time you guys/he common man/ the awam gets rid of those folks and usher in real democracy where you noble thoughts could be heard.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:44PM

    @Observer:

    “The author misses the option five- India doesn’t have to do anything.”

    There is a sixth option as well, Kashmiris win, and both India and Pakistan lose. Guess how? And in my opinion, this option is more likely to ocure than the fifth one, if all the other options fail.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:52PM

    “@Lala Gee: “Kashmir is neither the property of Pakistan, nor the property of India, but only of the Kashmiri people.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Does this profound logic also apply to Balouchistan?:)

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:56PM

    @Lala Gee:”“Kashmir belongs to India, can only belong to India, and will always belong to India.”
    And then someone suddenly switched on the light. LOL.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    But the darkness did not go away….darn the Loadshedding!:) LOLOLOLOL.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 22, 2013 - 2:58PM

    @Observer: “The author misses the option five- India doesn’t have to do anything. It can let Pakistan spend its resources on a useless and un-winnable “cause” and in the process destroy its economy and allow the society to become more radicalize.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    IMF ZINDABAD.

    Recommend

  • observer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:03PM

    @Lala Gee:

    It is only an addition of a single line in the ballet paper.

    Wince, Wince! Ouch, Ouch!

    ‘BALLOT paper’ my dear.

    ‘BALLET’ is not a paper but a dance form.

    Recommend

  • observer
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:07PM

    @Lala Gee:

    There is a sixth option as well, Kashmiris win, and both India and Pakistan lose. Guess how?

    \May be in a Gustaba cooking competition.

    Or may be in a ‘Ethnic Cleansing’ race. They have already eliminated the Kashmiri pandits.

    Recommend

  • Ram Ram
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:09PM

    The author and the commenters miss the big picture.

    Until and unless the Baluchis obtain total freedom and achieve a free and independent Baluchistan there can be no peace in “South Asia”.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:28PM

    @BruteForce:

    “@Lala Gee: Why hold a Plebiscite, when India is holding Elections every 6 years, at the state level and 5 at the Central level in Kashmir? ….. I am sure your feelings are genuine, but in a Democracy you speak through elections and representatives.”

    You talk so much about democracy, yet are allergic to a democratic process of plebiscite. Only that kind of democracy is acceptable to you which guarantees Indian control over the valley. I don’t know if you do that out of sheer ignorance, or do it deliberately to misguide the gullible. For the information of those who don’t know, any contestant running for the elections held under the Constitution of India is required to pledge his loyalty to the State of India at the time of submitting his/her nomination papers, and thus any person opposed to the Indian rule simply cannot participate in these elections, which are already mired by massive rigging in favor of the pro-Indian government contestants. All the elected representatives also have to take oath under the Indian Constitution and again pledge their allegiance with the state of India, without which they cannot become member of parliament. How then “If people wan’t something, they will talk through their Representative” is possible as you are suggesting.

    Recommend

  • qwe123kids
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:32PM

    @naeem khan Manhattan,K

    Know History first it was Nehru. not India..

    His opinion was never supported by Indian cabinet . so it is Not bind to india

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:39PM

    @Ram Ram:

    “Until and unless the Baluchis obtain total freedom and achieve a free and independent Baluchistan there can be no peace in “South Asia”.”

    Although you’re already doing your best in Baluchistan – like in Sri Lanka – to divert world’s focus from Kashmir to Baluchistan, why don’t you dare do the same what you did in East Pakistan, and ensure permanent peace in South Asia.

    Recommend

  • FactCheck
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:41PM

    What a moronic article.

    First option is just in your mind that India has not shown any interest on PoK because India has not taken interest in taking military action. India is trying to settle this with dialog. There is not single politician in India who will agree to that. If they, the consequences are huge. Tomorrow, Chain occupies parts of North East and over time India backs off and gives the territory to China. It is shame you such myopic view.

    Second option will only occur if and when Pakistan returns the territory, strike two for you. Reason same as #1

    Third option is a Pakistan centric view and India will never agree to it for two reasons. (1) Pakistan must return occupied territories before a plebiscite which Pakistan will never agree to. (2) Plebiscite was gone with the Simla Agreement (may want to consider reading it entirely).

    Fourth option stupid and never going to happen. (1) will allow terrorists to move in and out freely which will destabilize India. (2) Comparing India and Pakistan to EU is mental madness and intellectual dysentery (look up the meaning if you do not comprehend).

    There is fifth option, wait it out. At the rate Pakistan is going at the moment its, sustainability over the long term is suspect so, India can simply wait it out.

    Then there is the nuclear bogey. Pakistan attempting to use it will be the end of Pakistan, period. Only some Pakistanis and the Pakistan’s Military believe it is deterrent, it is not, it is a actually a curse and disaster waiting to happen. Guarantee, one nuclear tipped missile will not be allow d to take off from the bunker.

    Overall a useless article rehashing same stupidity over again. Suppose there is new government in Pakistan so it is a ritual that occur once every five years.

    Try to understand the larger issue before attempting offer solutions to any complex problem.

    Recommend

  • rp
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:52PM

    Kashmir LOC b converted into international border and Kashmir should b autonomous…

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 4:57PM

    @Polpot:

    “Does this profound logic also apply to Balouchistan?:)”

    Sure, if it is also applied to India as well. Let the Indian Occupied Kashmir go free first. Then Khalistan for Sikhs, Tamil Nadu for Tamils, Maoist states for Maoists, Goa for Christians, Muslims of Gujarat, Bombay, and Ayodya would also like to have separate homelands, and most likely the rest of Muslims of India would also like to have another Pakistan for them (curtsey revelations of Sachar Commission)

    “But the darkness did not go away….darn the Loadshedding!:)”

    I thought we are the only lucky ones, but as you say, the situation across the border is also not any better. Don’t know if I should express pleasure or grief.

    Recommend

  • C. Nandkishore
    Jun 22, 2013 - 5:11PM

    Okay, Kashmir issue is, I think, almost settled within these four options. Now lets talk Baluchistan.

    Recommend

  • James bond
    Jun 22, 2013 - 5:12PM

    Most of peoples who commets here are not even kashmiris or don’t even know any thing about Kashmir they are like Gandhi and Jinnah out siders.

    Recommend

  • Ram Ram
    Jun 22, 2013 - 5:14PM

    @ Lalla ghee
    Don’t be silly!! It is fun to just watch “Pakistan”. Why intervene and waste energy?

    Recommend

  • Ali Tanoli
    Jun 22, 2013 - 5:22PM

    Sab Ka India how about that guys.

    Recommend

  • Jun 22, 2013 - 5:28PM

    @Lala Gee:

    “For the information of those who don’t know, any contestant running for the elections held under the Constitution of India is required to pledge his loyalty to the State of India at the time of submitting his/her nomination papers”

    But, the same don’t have a problem with signing the Passport Application and fly all over the world, including Pakistan.

    Yasin Malik used to give the same reason when asked why he never stood for elections and prove his self-acclaimed support among the masses, until someone pointed out to him that he had to sign the same set of pledges to get an Indian passport, which he uses quite frequently!

    If they can claim fake allegiance to get a lousy Passport, they can certainly do it for the all-important political message, couldn’t they!

    “which are already mired by massive rigging in favor of the pro-Indian government contestants. “

    You are deliberately lying to win an argument. Not even the Kashmiris themselves believe the elections were rigged the last time. No International body has ever said any Indian election was rigged.

    In fact, Pakistani Election Commission took some tips from us Indians!

    http://tribune.com.pk/story/249811/indian-election-commission-asks-ecp-to-improve-credibility/

    A Hurriat man stood from a North Kashmir seat and came 4th!

    Whether you like it or not, the fact is nothing will happen in Kashmir which goes against the Constitution. Because the Constitution is so central to Indian life that India has not followed the path of Pakistan, where Dictators routinely flout it and butcher it.

    There is no legal basis for a Plebiscite to be held, hence will not happen. You seem to spend quite an amount of time asking for one, which I pity because that will NEVER happen.

    What is your excuse now? Elections are not rigged, the lousy excuse of taking oath in the name of Indian Constitution is proved to be false, Plebiscite has no legal basis.

    What is your line now?

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 5:43PM

    @observer:

    “@Lala Gee:
    ‘BALLOT paper’ my dear.
    ‘BALLET’ is not a paper but a dance form.”

    It is really getting embarrassing. Looks like my too much dependence on auto-correction feature has made me little less careful, and perhaps also started affecting my own ability to spell correctly. Lucky for me though, this is not an English language competition. Is it?

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:14PM

    @harkol:

    “@Lala Gee …..the geographical integrity of India as defined by Indian constitution can’t be questioned by any state (even if they are in majority). The same principle applied when Abraham Lincoln disregarded the secession of Confderate states from USA. They fought a civil war, and retained the geographical integrity.”

    You forgot to mention Canada in your comprehensive analysis.

    “Kashmiris can fight if they so wish and try to break that integrity. It wont’ just be granted by India. India will fight with all its might, and will defeat all those who are opposed to its integrity – just like USA did.”

    Civilized and democratic nations do that through referendum/plebiscite like how Canada and UK addressed the issues of Quebec and Ireland respectively. People applauding what America did 200 odd years ago during colonial era are not entitled to be part of the modern civilized world and neither be allowed to call themselves democratic either, rather they are an insult to both. Even the Sudanese people proved themselves more civilized and democratic in their attitude than the self-righteous Indians (Hindutva fanatics).

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:29PM

    @Lala Gee: “Muslims of India would also like to have another Pakistan for them ”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Oh u mean like Bangladesh was born out of Pakistan, and what now remains is West Pakistan?
    You can dream but “breakup” eg between Shias, Sunnis, Ahemediays happens only in Pakistan.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:31PM

    @Lala Gee: “I thought we are the only lucky ones, but as you say, the situation across the border is also not any better. Don’t know if I should express pleasure or grief.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    If you read ET you should know that Pakistan is planning to buy electricty from India.
    I can understand your grief.!
    Drakness in Pakistan is deeper than merely absence of light !

    Recommend

  • Grace
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:48PM

    @Jat: No one can decide the fate of Kashmiris except Kashmiris themselves. Kashmiris must be allowed to choose their own destiny. India cannot hold Kashmir indefinitely any more than Israel can hold on to Palestinian land forever. Kashmiris – at least the Muslim majority have never considered themselves to be Indian. This will never change. PS “Brute Force” No matter how well Israel is doing economically, Palestinians do not wish to be Israeli citizens; Ditto for Kashmiris. Take a look at Azad Kashmir- despite all of Pakistan’s problems, the residents there still volunteer to fight for the Pak military to liberate their brothers and sisters in occupied Kashmir. Should tell you how people think.

    Recommend

  • takbir
    Jun 22, 2013 - 6:53PM

    the author has gone mad. there has little to no trust between 2 sides & for him to propose joint administration is something straight out of sheer lunacy. In the times when indian narrative is unpopular amongst kashmiris, it would be fatal mistake to even think of it.
    neither india nor pakistan will cede an inch of territory & i guess it will be like this forever.

    Recommend

  • zoro
    Jun 22, 2013 - 7:03PM

    @ Lala Gee
    Yesss thats what will happen … Suddenly somebody will switch on the light and you will know that there are 4 more countries added to the world order !!!! BLLIINNGG !!!

    Recommend

  • Avatar
    Jun 22, 2013 - 7:18PM

    Kashmir Belongs to Pakistan and we will TAKE IT BACK!

    Recommend

  • SRK
    Jun 22, 2013 - 7:30PM

    Kashmir is integral part of India…Over and Out! :P

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 22, 2013 - 7:38PM

    @BruteForce:

    “Give them education, quality education, let them explore the length and breadth of India. That IS the solution….. India offers Freedom, Wealth, Pride and Happiness. None of which Pakistan nor Kashmir on itself can get.”

    Why this special treatment for Muslims of Kashmir only? Why all this has not been done for the Indian Muslims who have been systematically exploited, marginalized, and pushed in to the deep crevices of social isolation, poorness, and illiteracy as revealed by the ‘Sachar Commission’ report. You talk about Kashmiris integration, while denying accommodation to even the Bollywood Muslim celebrities in posh Hindu residential buildings. Let first Muslims of India enjoy the “Freedom, Wealth, Pride and Happiness” which “India offers” before trying to convince Kashmiris for the same.

    “In India(when I say India, I mean Kashmir too), Indian Constitution is supreme. That is the final word”

    Why don’t you also include USA in Indian Constitution as well. The added advantage, that will make your dreams of becoming a super power a reality overnight. Also, putting exclusive claim over Sun, Moon, and all stars will further enhance your image and might.

    Recommend

  • Well Wisher
    Jun 22, 2013 - 8:59PM

    Great job, Lala Gee. I hope someone form Pakistan foreign office also participates. And, where are the experts of IR and PS who get huge sums in pays in the universities of Pakistan?

    Recommend

  • Anand
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:14PM

    @Ali Tanoli

    “Sab Ka India how about that guys.”

    That would have been wonderful. We even wanted the same. But the door has been shut for those who left on their own, under futherly advice from you know who.

    Recommend

  • Someone
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:16PM

    @C. Nandkishore and Ram Ram: Nice try. But unlike Kashmir, Baluchistan is not internationally disputed territory. Ouch. #indian #trolling #fail

    Recommend

  • Javelin
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:22PM

    @Lala Gee:
    “And then someone suddenly switched on the light. LOL.”
    How can you when there is NO power?

    Recommend

  • Mikaail
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:37PM

    Why does it feel like I’ve mistakenly landed on a Narendra Modi fanpage. This blog has more Indians commenting on it – with their rhetorical vitriol of course – than Pakistanis. Not that it’s in any way prohibited or they should be discouraged, certainly not. But one cannot help but think, is their own media that hopeless that they have to resort to ET, a paper from Pakistan, to fish for their pointless arguments which achieve nothing? Oh well, good for them.

    Recommend

  • Nero
    Jun 22, 2013 - 9:42PM

    Does anyone else find it funny that many people here have questioned, directly or indirectly, author’s right to make suggestions? It just cracks me up. These thekedaars somehow believe only they have the right to say anything about the dispute. Dear thekedaars, author is a journalist voicing his opinion. Not prime minister of India. Get off the flying horse!

    Recommend

  • Vishal(Indian)
    Jun 22, 2013 - 10:04PM

    The reason why Kashmir may have become a dispute territory is because the government of Kashmir and India has failed to give jobs and bring prosperity which in turn would have brought happiness to the people of Kashmir.

    Recommend

  • Arijit Sharma.
    Jun 22, 2013 - 11:43PM

    Kashmir banega Hindu, in due course of time – the way it was before visitors from Arabian sands came calling.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 23, 2013 - 12:20AM

    “These killers are systematically destroying Pakistan’s past and our promise for the future: ”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Source:ET http://tribune.com.pk/story/566890/who-are-the-terrorists/
    Who in his/her right mind would want to be a part of this mayhem ?

    Recommend

  • Sandip
    Jun 23, 2013 - 12:23AM

    Taking cue from what someone said here, Kashmiris should ask Pakistan to immediately withdraw it forces from so called Northern Areas and AJK and let Kashmiris declare this as an independent Kashmiri state ( a truly independent state). That will put a lot of pressure on India. And I am an Indian who says this. Let’s for once see Pakistan walk the talk, Please.

    Recommend

  • Rafi Ka Deewana
    Jun 23, 2013 - 12:39AM

    @Arijit Sharma.: “Kashmir banega Hindu, in due course of time – the way it was before visitors from Arabian sands came calling.”

    I don’t think that will ever happen, and there is no need for it. An Indian is an Indian whether he / she be a Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Christian, Jain, or whatever. I’ll be extremely delighted if Kashmir becomes truly Indian – by heart and by soul.

    Recommend

  • haider
    Jun 23, 2013 - 2:50AM

    kashmir certainly does not belong to India, but since pakistan has not been exactly successful at handling the existing provinces, we aren’t in a position to claim our right over kashmir. besides, it is the 21st century, the world has moved on and kashmiris have their own right to freedom and choice. pakistan and india are no one to decide for kashmiris. a referendum is needed, so that kashmiris can decide their own fate (which happens to be their birth right) **Jeo aur Jeenay do**Recommend

  • thor
    Jun 23, 2013 - 9:58AM

    Kashmir problem is an indirect consequence of bogus Two Nation Theory & subsequent partition.
    This need to be realized by all people at stake.
    At this moment i do not think Pakistanis can digest this fact.

    Recommend

  • Aschraful Makhlooq
    Jun 23, 2013 - 10:27AM

    @C. Nandkishore:
    We Pakistanis know it very well that India is interfering in Balochistan’s matters.Please don’t remind us………

    Recommend

  • Ex Lahori
    Jun 23, 2013 - 11:44AM

    @zeb, Lala Gee ,Very good debate. But a reality check.Much water has flowed in Jhelum since
    1948 . There is a new Generation of Kashmiris which sees thru SAJ & Hurriyat.These people
    have ideas whose Expiry Date is long over in this part of Border .All of us have heard about Sheikh Chilly, so if you want to day dream and in the process destroy yourself and your Pakland
    you are welcome.All over the Middle East societys are destroying themselves.But India and J&k have set their course for a very long Journey and will not be deflected by some Jahil Kabalis defiling our Paradise just because a majority population is Muslim.It is your own propaganda which is consuming you.May God make you see the Realty which is very different from what u hear in Lahore / Peshawar/POK.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 23, 2013 - 11:47AM

    Pakistani Ballet with Democrcracy: Bullet vs Ballott
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Some readers may repaeat that again and again …:)

    Recommend

  • Feroz
    Jun 23, 2013 - 12:40PM

    Kashmir has become a piece of cake — unfortunately everyone wants to have it and eat it too.

    Recommend

  • Jun 23, 2013 - 1:14PM

    @thor:

    Two Nation Theory is absolutely correct. But, needs a bit of tweaking. Hindus could have never lived peacefully with Muslims. Its better for India and Hindus as a whole that the nation of Pakistan was born.

    But, divisive theories like TNT should never be used for nation building as that would hinder the process of governance and identity, precisely which is happening in Pakistan.

    TNT, if you are willing to extend it, will apply to UK, US and most of the EU. That is why they are busy making it hard for Muslims to migrate into those countries.

    Jinnah was right, but wrong when he went on to create a country based on such divisive ideas.Recommend

  • Jun 23, 2013 - 1:22PM

    Mods: Please allow this. This point is important to fight propaganda against India.

    @Lala Gee:

    My reply to you wan’t published. So, i’ll keep it short and try to be on the favourable side of the censors of ET.

    Illiteracy among Muslims in India is not a India exclusive problem, but of the entire world. Look at Muslims in Pakistan and Bangladesh, they are worse off than their fellow followers in India.

    Oodles have been written about the lack of enthusiasm for modern education in the Arab world.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3130234.stm

    India has given many sops for the Muslims to encourage them to study; India has allowed minority education institutions across all levels, but the response is discouraging.

    Sir Syed wrote about the lack of enthusiasm among Muslims for modern education more than a 100 years ago. Things haven’t changed much since then, it seems.

    So, India has done its bit, Sachhar committee from one perspective(the perspective you favour, for apparent reasons) makes you believe its India’s problem, but when you take into account the rest of the sub-continent and the rest of the Muslim world, it says its not fault of India at all.

    Pakistan till 90s had a higher economic success than India, yet its literacy rate is much lower than India’s. India, considering the limitations has done more than it should to encourage Education.

    You can’t treat a patient who refuses to be treated.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 1:47PM

    @Ex Lahori:

    “@zeb, Lala Gee ,Very good debate … Hurriyat.These people have ideas whose Expiry Date is long over in this part of Border .All of us have heard about Sheikh Chilly, so if you want to day dream and in the process destroy yourself and your Pakland you are welcome.All over the Middle East societys are destroying themselves.But India and J&k have set their course for a very long Journey and will not be deflected by some Jahil Kabalis defiling our Paradise just because a majority population is Muslim.It is your own propaganda which is consuming you.”

    Are you sure you are “Ex-Lahori”?

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 3:03PM

    @BruteForce:

    “Yasin Malik used to give the same reason … If they can claim fake allegiance to get a lousy Passport, they can certainly do it for the all-important political message, couldn’t they!”

    There is only a miniscule difference though, you don’t go to jail if you travel too, on that “lousy passport” after “claiming fake allegiance”, however, this is not so true in case of elected members if they use their right of ‘Freedom of Speech’ to convey “all-important political message” and demand holding a plebiscite after submitting to Indian Constitution on oath, twice. The example has already been set for those who dare doing this, and the message has already been conveyed unambiguously for likes of Sheikh Abdullah, the first elected ‘Prime Minister’ of J&K, when he demanded holding the promised plebiscite, he was sent straight from Prime Minister House to jail for 11 long years.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 3:13PM

    @BruteForce:

    “You are deliberately lying to win an argument. Not even the Kashmiris themselves believe the elections were rigged the last time. No International body has ever said any Indian election was rigged.”

    Here is the Indian version of ‘Arabian Nights’, but unlike the original one, it is based solely on facts and truth. The differences being much more interesting, involving, and only a 45 minutes read. The writer is an American of white descent who chose Kashmir as his research thesis for his Masters Degree in an American institute which is known for its strength in International Affairs and Political Sciences. I chose this reference over many others because its neutrality cannot be challenged. Go through this, and also[read this Human Rights Watch report, “INDIA’S SECRET ARMY IN KASHMIR”. Perhaps a sorry would be appropriate after reading these two reports for unintentionally misleading the unsuspecting.

    “A Hurriat man stood from a North Kashmir seat and came 4th!”

    What it proves? Perhaps nothing at best. You haven’t elaborated who, but I can tell you he went against his own party and participated in the elections which his party boycotted because these were being held under the Indian Constitution which Hurriyat Conference does not recognize. Had he had won, only then you could have made a point in support of your view point, “look he won and people rejected Hurriyat’s boycott” (Even then this would not have been an absolute proof, as there are several other variables involved in success). Instead he lost miserably.

    “In fact, Pakistani Election Commission took some tips from us Indians!”

    LOL. Now I got it why every Pakistani political party is protesting, and leveling charges of rigging. After all, Indians have invaluable long experience of rigging elections in the Indian Occupied Kashmir.

    Recommend

  • Inderjeet Singh
    Jun 23, 2013 - 4:41PM

    @Lala Gee:
    Reading through your repetitive, hollow and often jarring arguments which are being put forth to fill in the space graciously made available to you by this paper, I wonder why you don’t do a refresher course in Kashmiri history and politics. Bizarre as some of your comparisons to other regions of India may seem, I am sorry to say that your arrogance, coupled with ignorance, betrays a vain ego that is totally biased and divorced from the ground realities of Kashmir. My dear chap, as one psychiatrist said, the propaganda based on lies can harm you more than others because your failing vision is incapable of distinguishing between true and false, between fact and fiction, between the possible and impossible. Goebbels, that infamous propaganda minister of Hitler, found out as he was close to death and the Third Reich was crumbling that the biggest enemy of an individual is his propensity to believe in what he knows to be a grand lie.

    Recommend

  • Cynical
    Jun 23, 2013 - 4:43PM

    @Arijit Sharma

    “Kashmir banega Hindu, in due course of time – ……”
    You’re the man! What certitude (!) and an attitude to match. Last time I saw such public display of courage and conviction was in a Cape Town (RSA) suburb, where the bollywood
    Actor Govinda was performing right in the middle of a road, in full view of the public, for a song-dance sequence, attired in a Golden yellow jacket, a Mauve pink Trouser and a white pair of shoes.

    @Rafi Ka Deewana

    “@Arijit Sharma: I don’t think that will ever happen, and there is no need for it. An Indian is an Indian whether…….”
    Words of wisdom. Well done.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 4:49PM

    @BruteForce:

    lliteracy among Muslims in India is not a India exclusive problem, but of the entire world.
    Oodles have been written about the lack of enthusiasm for modern education in the Arab world.
    but when you take into account the rest of the sub-continent and the rest of the Muslim world, it says its not fault of India at all.”

    Without saying much, as the facts will speak for themselves, I would quote these figures taken from wikipedia entry; “List of countries by literacy rate”

    Blockquote
    Country Overall Male Female
    India 74.1% 82.1% 65.5%
    S. Arabia 96.0% 90.0% 81.3%
    UAE 90.0% 90.0% 90.0%
    Qatar 96.3% 96.5% 95.4%
    Kuwait 94.0% 94.4% 97.0%
    Syria 85.0% 86.0% 85.0%
    Libya 89.2% 95.6% 82.7%
    Turkey 95.2% 98.3% 92.2%
    Malaysia 92.1% 92.0% 89.8%
    Indonesia 92.8% 95.6% 90.1%
    Blockquote

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  • Jun 23, 2013 - 4:56PM

    @Lala Gee:

    What is your point?

    They have no problem signing fake allegiances to travel to other countries, but won’t do it to the cause they profess to die for?

    Rubbish argument and you know it. You must have Googled to prove me wrong that Passport Applications don’t carry such wordings but it turned out I was right.. So, you are bringing events of some 50 years ago..

    Your claim was Elections are not barometer of people’s wishes because of some lousy point about signing some pledge. But, I pointed out they have already done that. Now, you are stumped and trying to rake up irrelevant issues.

    Now, lets go back to the topic. Why to hold a Plebescite when India is holding Elections, every 6 years and 5 at Center and State level, respectively?

    People had given their verdict by electing the grandson of the man you pointed was treated badly once before. He is pro-India, why can’t you accept the people’s word? Anyway your attempts to somehow force India to hold a Plebiscite is pointless, an exercise in waste…

    And, I know why you and your Government(read: Military) dismiss Elections.

    http://in.reuters.com/article/2009/05/16/idINIndia-39670020090516

    Sajjad Gani Lone, Kashmir’s first
    separatist leader to contest Indian
    elections since a revolt broke out in
    the region two decades ago, lost
    polls
    , results showed..Lone, who
    opposes Indian rule in the disputed
    Himalayan state and defied a
    long-standing separatist policy of
    boycotting elections, said he wanted
    to take Kashmir’s “freedom” struggle
    to parliament in New Delhi. ”

    So your boys represent a minority in Kashmir. A Hurriat faction leader stood for elections in the heart of Kashmir and actually loses. Not only did he lose, he came 4th place behind Congress, PDP, National Conference, all pro-India parties. Oh, might I remind you that your boy Musharaff, the lord of Pakistan at that time, too recognised that it was a free and fair election. Lone, the guy who lost came on TV and admitted to his defeat himself. Never once did he say the elections were rigged.

    Why did a Separatist lose? Is it because they represent a minority Islamist fringe?

    Why should India even waste time on Plebiscite(assuming its legally allowed by the Constitution), when the people have clearly shown their preference?Recommend

  • Jun 23, 2013 - 5:09PM

    @Lala Gee:

    Bangladesh 56.8% 61.3% 52.2%
    Pakistan 57% 69.3% 45%
    Afghanistan 34% 49% 18%

    You forgot Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The literacy rate of Muslims in India is 67.6%! Clearly, India has done a better job of it than the Muslim majority countries of the Sub Continent (It didn’t occur to you for a moment that your link could be used against you?).

    Muslims in India are lucky to have such world-class institutions like IITs, IIMs, IISCs and what not, at their disposal.

    So, are you are fan of statistics, right? India has better numbers for Muslims than Pakistan and Bangladesh and Afghanistan. So, are you going to give credit where it is due?

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  • Jun 23, 2013 - 5:14PM

    @Lala Gee:

    Oh, an interesting tit-bit just occurred to me.

    Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and India together form about half of the Muslims in the entire world(India – 150 Mil, Pak 190 Mil, Bangladesh – 160 Mil = 500 Million out of 1.4 Billion Muslims).

    So, it doesn’t matter if literacy rate in Saudi Arabia is 90%. The average rate is around 50% is the places where they are in greater numbers. So, my point is absolutely spot on.

    You want me to number crunch and present it for you?

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  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 5:23PM

    @BruteForce:

    “You are deliberately lying to win an argument. Not even the Kashmiris themselves believe the elections were rigged the last time. No International body has ever said any Indian election was rigged.”

    Here is the Indian version of ‘Arabian Nights’, but unlike the original one, it is based solely on facts and truth. The differences being much more interesting, involving, and only a 45 minutes read. The writer is an American of white descent who chose Kashmir as his research thesis for his Masters Degree in an American institute which is known for its strength in International Affairs and Political Sciences. I chose this reference over many others because its neutrality cannot be challenged. Go through this, and also[read this Human Rights Watch report, “INDIA’S SECRET ARMY IN KASHMIR”. Perhaps a sorry would be appropriate after reading these two reports for unintentionally misleading the unsuspecting.

    “A Hurriat man stood from a North Kashmir seat and came 4th!”

    What it proves? Perhaps nothing at best. You haven’t elaborated who, but I can tell you he went against his own party and participated in the elections which his party boycotted because these were being held under the Indian Constitution which Hurriyat Conference does not recognize. Had he had won, only then you could have made a point in support of your view point, “look he won and people rejected Hurriyat’s boycott” (Even then this would not have been an absolute proof, as there are several other variables involved in success). Instead he lost miserably.

    “In fact, Pakistani Election Commission took some tips from us Indians!”

    LOL. Now I got it why every Pakistani political party is protesting, and leveling charges of rigging. After all, Indians have invaluable long experience of rigging elections in the Indian Occupied Kashmir.Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 5:46PM

    @BruteForce:

    “You forgot Bangladesh, Afghanistan and Pakistan. The literacy rate of Muslims in India is 67.6%! Clearly, India has done a better job of it than the Muslim majority countries of the Sub Continent (It didn’t occur to you for a moment that your link could be used against you?).”

    My problem, unlike you, is that I don’t say what I cannot substantiate later from reliable sources. I tried my best to search the literacy rate of Indian Muslims; tried wikipedia, census2011.co.in, and google search; but didn’t find any credible source. That is why I didn’t challenge that part of your comment, but only if you were paying attention, you’d have noticed this. I don’t know which is your source for this 67.6% as you didn’t mention it, but what I got is almost similar figures as of Pakistan. But that is not the important and relevant point. The important point is that your generalized assertions that Muslims all over the world are not inclined towards education despite incentives and their literacy rate is the worst among nations have been proved totally wrong. Now you should be looking into the real reasons for the Indian Muslims backwardness in education, which are already mentioned in the Sachar Commission Report, and try to address them, and bring the numbers closer to your national average, if you are really a Secular society.

    Recommend

  • Sami Ullah
    Jun 23, 2013 - 5:55PM

    Idea is good but subcontinent has not raised up to that intellectual level.Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 23, 2013 - 6:14PM

    @BruteForce: “You can’t treat a patient who refuses to be treated.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    To elucidiate: you can wakeup a guy who is sleping but not a guy who is awake.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 23, 2013 - 6:23PM

    Yet another option for Future of Kashmir
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Pakistan will grab the remaining Kshmir with military force.
    OOOOOOps did I say something awkward…Pakistan has tried that again and again and failed miserably. errrrr Kargil………..

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 6:31PM

    @BruteForce:

    “So, it doesn’t matter if literacy rate in Saudi Arabia is 90%. The average rate is around 50% is the places where they are in greater numbers. So, my point is absolutely spot on.”

    You’re making hasty and irrational conclusions without even thinking. Consider the numbers of Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, and Egypt. Do you get a picture? Compare them with Afghanistan, Bangladesh, and Pakistan. There is another commonality besides religion, and that is their not so strong economy. Pakistan and Egypt have to spend much more on their defense due to their own needs and hence eduction, health, and other social areas suffer as a result. Same is the case with all other poor African countries regardless of what is the religion of the majority. Why do you ignore heavily populated Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, and Turkey from your analysis, because they do not suit to your prejudiced analysis.

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  • Lala Gee
    Jun 23, 2013 - 6:43PM

    @Polpot:

    “To elucidiate: you can wakeup a guy who is sleping but not a guy who is awake.”

    Who would wake YOU up? I am guessing you were awake while you wrote this comment.

    Ah, though it is mean, what is this “elucidiate” and “sleping”? I wouldn’t have asked if you haven’t already done the same yourself.

    Recommend

  • Polpot
    Jun 23, 2013 - 7:51PM

    @Lala Gee: zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZ
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Yawn…………………………………………………..

    Recommend

  • Jun 23, 2013 - 9:51PM

    @Lala Gee:

    Why are you raking unrelated topics? Your point was that Plebiscite should be allowed. I said its not needed since Elections serve that purpose well. You brought up some silly point about candidates having to sign allegiance to India, I pointed out they already have done that in the past.

    Instead of focusing on the topic you are talking about History, playing victim, talking about Sachhar Committee report,etc.

    You then talked about how Muslims are less literate when compared to others, I just pointed out the pathetic state of Muslims in the neighboring states and how better Muslims are in India, when compared to these places.

    Can you for once stay on the topic and give credit where it is due?

    Indian Muslim is much more educated than anywhere in the Sub Continent. The culture of the Muslims of sub continent seems to be not giving much importance to education and in that India has done a stand up job, at least much better than Pakistan and Bangladesh.

    You said Indian Elections are not reliable, I pointed out how Sajjid Lone, the person who contested accepted his defeat and how the Pakistani Election Commission takes tips from the Indian EC. This only proves even the worst critics recognize how fair it is and how effective it is.

    Recommend

  • thor
    Jun 23, 2013 - 11:02PM

    @BruteForce:
    well..i understand what you say..
    just wanted to make a point.
    The land that is Pakistan today could have been a different place altogether if not for partition.
    Its one of the sacred Hindu place. Vedas & Upanishads originated from here.
    Mahabharata was first recited in Taksh-shila.
    Without partition Hindus/Sikhs would have been at some considerable percentage.At this moment it could have been less influenced by Wahhabis.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 24, 2013 - 1:39AM

    @Inderjeet Singh:

    “Reading through your repetitive, hollow and often jarring arguments which are being put forth to fill in the space graciously made available to you by this paper, ….. I am sorry to say that your arrogance, coupled with ignorance, betrays a vain ego that is totally biased and divorced from the ground realities of Kashmir. My dear chap, as one psychiatrist said, the propaganda based on lies can harm you more than others because your failing vision is incapable of distinguishing between true and false, between fact and fiction, between the possible and impossible.”

    LOL. Sorry, I didn’t notice you. I know how much that hurts. Thanks for the complements, by the way. God day.

    P.S. Don’t forget to follow your own advice. It is good for your health.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 24, 2013 - 2:21AM

    @BruteForce:

    “Why are you raking unrelated topics?”

    First, you started the conversation and I only replied, and always quoted your relevant parts of the comment I was responding to. Second, I always backed up my arguments, where ever were necessary, using credible sources and provided their online links for verification. Therefore, the question of “racking unrelated topics” does not arise.

    The rest of the points you raised here have already been answered in my previous comments, and I don’t have that kind of time to repeat them again and again. Read all my comments and follow the links I provided in my comments. Answers to all of your questions are already there. Nobody can put stuff in you head, you have to do the reading yourself.

    Recommend

  • Gaga Lee
    Jun 24, 2013 - 7:30PM

    @Lala Gee

    ”….. denying accommodation to even the Bollywood Muslim celebrities in posh Hindu residential buildings.”
    I am a little surprised. Why a Muslim, celebrity or not, would want to be accommodated in a Hindu residential building, posh or not? Unless he/she is in negation of the sanest and most life changing advice from his/her greatest friend, philosopher and guide, that hindus and muslims can’t live together.

    Recommend

  • Lala Gee
    Jun 24, 2013 - 11:54PM

    @Gaga Lee:

    “I am a little surprised. Why a Muslim, celebrity or not, would want to be accommodated in a Hindu residential building, posh or not?”

    Most likely they just want a decent accommodation irrespective of who else lives there. It is no surprise though that Hindus are in majority in most of the decent or indecent residential complexes in Bombay, simply because they are in overwhelming majority in India.

    “Unless he/she is in negation of the sanest and most life changing advice from his/her greatest friend, philosopher and guide, that hindus and muslims can’t live together.”

    In my opinion, the Muslims who chose India over Pakistan had already given their decision against TNT, but now Hindus are doing their utmost to prove it correct through frequent pogroms, mass gang rapes, and large scale arson of homes and business of Indian minorities. Be that the Muslims of Ayodhya, Bombay, Gujarat, and IO Kashmir, or Sikhs of Delhi and Punjab, or Christians of India, none has been spared from the “revenge” of the majority after independence, and that too with impunity and under state patronage.

    P.S. Your parents have great insight who rightly chose “Gaga” Lee as your name, and I am sure you have never disappointed them.

    Recommend

  • Gaga Lee
    Jun 25, 2013 - 4:47PM

    @Lala Gee

    “Most likely they just want a decent accommodation irrespective of who else lives there.”
    That’s my point, exactly! Why should the ideology, coming as it is, from the best of the bestest (ignore the grammar for a moment) of friend, philosopher and the guide, would be set aside, when it comes to a matter of convenience, or a flight of fancy? That’s not like the ‘ghairat’ of a believer, or of a member of the brotherhood.
    “It is no surprise though that Hindus are in majority in most of the decent or indecent residential complexes in Bombay, simply because they are in overwhelming majority in India.”
    It was not surprising even then, when TNT was being played out, and the folks followed the pied piper to the hilt; when it was executed with the viciousness of a butcher, but not with the precision (sadly) of a surgeon. They knew it then, as they know it now. To pretend otherwise is conceit at its best, and ingenious at the worst.
    “In my opinion, the Muslims who chose India over Pakistan had already given their decision against TNT,”
    I respect your opinion, but the reality on the ground was different. The decision arrived a little late in their reckoning. They voted overwhelmingly in favour of TNT, but when push came to shove, they simply didn’t walk the talk. Worst still is that the piper of Pure land, having led his devotees up to the shore, sailed away leaving them stranded. Their use over, his glory achieved. It was an act of treachery, as farcical and as tragical it could be.
    “, but now Hindus are doing their utmost to prove it correct…”
    Couldn’t agree more, it is disturbing for some of us. But why worry? You should be happy, that more and more of his former adversaries have seen the light of truth and are falling for his theory. Larger the following, greater the glory of the messiah. He wins, you win and we the early doubters lose. Isn’t that great?
    P.S. My parents would be greatly disappointed, if I respond to what you alluded in your P.S.

    Recommend

  • Gaga Lee
    Jun 26, 2013 - 4:24PM

    @Lala Gee
    You mentioned ‘Sachar commission’ for the umpteenth time. Now, who do you think, set up that commission? Pakistan? China? OIC? UN? Who? Pray tell me, who?
    It was set up by the Govt. of the Indian/s (to whom you indignantly refer to as Hindus). Why would they do that, if they didn’t care? And why they would put the findings in public domain, if they’re not sincere and transparent? Do you think they did it, so that one @Lala Gee, whose massive ego gets the better of his rationality when it comes to India, can have a dig at the Indians (read Hindus)?

    Recommend

  • Vikrant
    Jun 26, 2013 - 6:25PM

    @Umar Jaan:
    We will believe what you say if you can prevent over 60% of the State (that you call “disputed” apparently) from voting in elections (at ALL levels) held under the Indian Constitution!! Even the likes of Syed Ali Shah Geelani and the other assorted alphabet-soup of “Separatist” parties are on record as saying (and lamenting repeatedly) that nothing else symbolizes the acceptance of the people of the State than to participate in elections held by India. That is the simple reason why the entire world (and even Pakistanis who have some brains) have pretty much quietly accepted the reality that there can never be a change in the status-quo…. whatever empty sloganeering that may happen at seminars, newspaper columns etc etc

    Recommend

  • Gaga Lee
    Jun 26, 2013 - 8:37PM

    @ET MODERATOR

    How come a comment (on this op-ed) that I have been notified via e_mail about 22 hrs ago doesn’t appear here till now? While comments received much later is already there. The comment came from ‘Aam Admi’.

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