SRINAGAR: Leaders from Indian Kashmir said Monday they would travel to Pakistan for their first talks with officials in nearly four years, a move that could revive cross-border tensions.
Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a leader of the Hurriyat Conference, said that Pakistan had invited him and other leaders who oppose India's rule of Kashmir for meetings in Islamabad next month.
"We will be meeting members of the ruling party, opposition leaders and government officials," Farooq told AFP, adding he wanted to convince all sides that "peace is impossible without resolution of Kashmir".
Muslim-majority Kashmir, which Pakistan and India both claim but rule in parts, has been racked by militancy since 1989 when an insurgency against Indian rule erupted.
Around 47,000 people have died, though militant violence has fallen in recent years.
Pakistan and India remain deadlocked over Kashmir, but have made some progress in less contentious subjects such as bilateral trade.
COMMENTS (72)
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and some posters here are quiet liberal with stats....45% of India under Naxal clout 50% of people not speaking Hindi deliberately(only god knows who conducts such surveys) and more than 70% of Indians are not Indian.....lol..and this theory of death by thousand cuts is most hilarious...only problem is that the hunter become the hunted...
@gp65
@Cynical: Thanks. It was important for this to come from a Pakistani like you.
What a joy! I try posting comments and wait for eternity; when peace loving, tolerant, logical ,fair minded Indians with an acute sense of justice and fairness with a matching heart full of love and compassion will send me a word of appreciation. And you did it. Thanks a lot. But you know, the more people get the more they want. I am no exception. A small request: not a demand. In future, I would like to be commended or chastised (as the case may be) for the merit (or for lack of it) of my views, not because of the colour of my passport, or such other temporal identities. They have their importance at appropriate levels, but not at the level of intellectual discourse. The country, the state, the people; all are separate entities; and more often than not, have separate rationale and separate dynamics. Birth is accident and so is whatever comes with it. All identities are imposed or imagined. We can all create our own individual identity through our continuous effort to become as best a human being as we can be. And be recognised and addressed on that basis alone.
Thanks and regards.
@Cynical: Very well said. As I like to say, ignorance in this time and age is a huge sin. Now, we Jats are Aryans or not, U son't know. But very very rarely you will find a Jat with a light eye color, or light hair. As you said, we belong to this region, we originated here, and we have always been here. This is our motherland. Our roots are here. As far back as we have tried, all our ancestors have lived here.
We all are Indians, whether someone likes it or not. There might have been some dilution here and there on the edges of the region. We have no intention of linking our roots to Europe, to Central Asia or to the Arab lands.
I, an Indian, was born here, and will die here. My roots are here, this is my motherland. Any person, any citizen of this country who does not accept this fact, does not embrace the motherland is requested to leave immediately never to return.
As you have correctly pointed out, this Aryan Invasion Theory was the handiwork of some European historians who could not digest the fact that a more advanced civilization had lived and developed here.
Way back when these Europeans and Central Asians were living in caves and wearing animal skins, we were setting up universities and developing philosophical thought.
@Lala Gee
'......over 70% of India’s current population is migrant ‘Aryan’ who came from north and the native ‘Dravidians’ were pushed down to the south. Every astute reader knows this fact....'
Apparently, even some not so astute readers also know about this 'Aryan Invasion Theory' which was circulated by some Orientalist/Indologists during mid 19th century. Most prominent among them is Max Muller, a renowned Philologist of German extraction. But this theory has been challenged by modern day scholars from both east and west. Advancement in genetic studies and development of more inclusive models to study language structures have contributed greatly in debunking 'Aryan Invasion' theory and came up with the 'Out of India' (OIT) theory. It is interesting to note that the idea was first proposed by another German Wilhelm Friedrich born 50 years before Max Muller. Probably we haven't heard the last word yet. Don't go opening a can of worms. The invasion, central to the theory of 'Aryan Invasion' took place through present day north-west region of Pakistan and populated almost the whole of present day Pakistan and much of Northern India. So if we ask 70% of Indians to leave India because of their Aryan ancestry, almost all the Pakistanis will have to join them and find a place somewhere in Central Asia or Northern Iran (Persia). India will still be left with the remaining 30%. Good for them. But what about us? I don't want to claim 'Aryan' ancestry. I don't to go to Central Asia, or Iran. Leave me alone. The history of mankind is the history of migration. Strictly speaking nobody is an indigenous, or a native; only a mere local.
@Randomstranger:
"Lol at the comments from Indians who are telling them to not to return."
Like they have compelled Kashmiri Hindus to leave Kashmir never to return.
And might is right. If we do not want these guys (the so called leaders visiting Pakistan), back in India, we will not have them.
@Lala Gee: "@BruteForce: @Jat: End of discussion – as my purpose has already been well served by exposing your reality."
How will it benefit you, except for getting me arrested for indecent behavior ?
@BruteForce: @Jat:
End of discussion - as my purpose has already been well served by exposing your reality.
@Lala Gee:
India gave a raw deal to Pakistan, so what?
Are you going go war or it? Oh wait, its India 4-0.
Are you going to send Terrorists? Oh wait, apparently, according to you, we are much better at it.
Are you going to outgrow us economy wise? Oh wait, India has been growing at twice the pace as Pakistan. Sometimes thrice as fast.
An ant should be wiser than taking on an elephant.
@gp65,
Dude, this guy is never going to learn. The irony is its precisely his kind of thinking that has made sure Pakistan is facing International isolation and multi-pronged Terrorist violence.
All he can do is hate India. No matter how much you debate with him he is not going to change his views.
Do what I do, accept the charge and say, "So?". We are much better placed, we don't need the satisfaction of proving a Pakistani wrong.
@gp65:
"Pakistan has only itself to blame for creating all these hurdles to the plebiscite."
Yeah, Pakistan also has to be blamed for the military takeover of Junagadh State, Hyderabad Deccan, Goa, Sikim etc. etc. Any decent person would at least smile over your claim of demilitarization of Indian Occupied part of Kashmir. Perhaps you consider everybody except yourself a plain simpleton. Regarding demographics, I suggest you start a property business in Azad Kashmir or GB, and you will be soon filing for bankruptcy because you couldn't sell a single inch of land to Pakistani citizens, while Kashmiris are allowed to buy any property anywhere in Pakistan. FYI half the population of Lahore is or Kashmiri origin. In case you don't know, Azad Kashmir has its own President, Prime Minister, and Supreme Court, unlike Indian Occupied Kashmir where you kept its first Chief Minister, Sheikh Abdullah, in Jail for 15 long years to make him yield to Indian wishes.
@Jat:
"@Lala Gee: “Since more than 70% of Indian populations is not Indian by origin or race (including the Jat caste)”
Am so overwhelmed by the brilliance of your knowledge that I feel any attempt on my part to reply to you will only take away from the beauty of your post. You have written something so extraordinary that everyone must read it and enjoy. Amazing !!"
Acting funny and responding with sarcasm instead of arguments won't change the fact that over 70% of India's current population is migrant 'Aryan' who came from north and the native 'Dravidians' were pushed down to the south. Every astute reader knows this fact, but then the person also has to have some character to accept the facts, an unlikely trait in most Indians. In the past, I have minted this maxim which I quote occasionally, "The Indians are different species with whom facts, logic, and reasoning do not work", and you have one more time proved it.
@Lala Gee: We took it to UN. Indian KAshmir was demilitarized until 1988- that was not true of Pakistani Kashmir which was first condition in the UN resolution. Second condition was to keep demographic condition same. India tried to do this through article 356 which does not allow anyone from anyother state to but propertyin Kashmir though Kashmirirs can buy property anywhere. We knowerfectly well, Pakistan did the exact opposite nd deliberately settled millions of people in what you call Azad Kashmir. You not just distorted demographic composition in Pakistan but also India when your jihadis pushed pandits out of their homes. Finally you have given a portion of the disputed Kashmir to China. How do you propose that the referendum be conducted there? Pakistan has only itself to blame for creating all these hurdles to the plebiscite.
@gp65:
"Resolutions passed under Chapter VI of UN charter are considered non binding".
Although I would've liked if you had provided some reputable online reference to back your claims but, even if accepted as you claim, the resorting to "non-binding" is something only a morally bankrupt person or nation would do considering you yourself took the dispute to UNSC for settlement. What about UNSC Resolutions 38, 39, 51, 80, 91, 96, 98, 122, 123, and 126. Were all these also passed because UNSC had nothing better to do to kill their time?
@Afzaal Khan: acchi khatir karna! dont send him back please.
@Lala Gee: "Since more than 70% of Indian populations is not Indian by origin or race (including the Jat caste)"
Am so overwhelmed by the brilliance of your knowledge that I feel any attempt on my part to reply to you will only take away from the beauty of your post. You have written something so extraordinary that everyone must read it and enjoy. Amazing !!
@Jat:
"B (2) Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the Commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.
Read, carefully read the B. (2) clause of the the text you provided in your comment, especially the highlighted part. It clearly acknowledges and endorses the existence of line(s) of control that would be created at the time of cease fire. What is that line(s) of control and its purpose? It is clear that according to this agreement, both countries are required to draw back their forces to the areas of their line of control, which Pakistan did. And hence no violation of this agreement by Pakistan.
@Jat:
"C. (1) Upon signature, the full text of the Truce Agreement or communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public."
Any reputable online link (preferably on UN website).
@Jat:
"India is for Indians."
You are absolutely right in your assertion. India is for Indians. Since more than 70% of Indian populations is not Indian by origin or race (including the Jat caste), and they migrated from somewhere else, they must leave India ASAP. So, go get packing already.
@gp65:
"Simla agreement was signed by Pakistan and India AFTER the UN resolution and it clearly states that all disputes between the 2 countries will be bilaterally resolved – in other words no role for UN. Effectively Simla agreement supercedes the UN resolution on Kashmir from an operational perspective."
1- International laws and UNSC resolutions supersede any local law or agreement, just like the Federal laws supersede any provincial (state, in case of USA) laws.
2- There is no clause in the Simla Agreement specifically prohibiting any party to take-up the issue with the United Nations, or declared UNSC Resolutions null and void.
3- Not in any of the UNSC resolutions it is mentioned that these resolutions are non-binding. Such a claim especially from India is ludicrous who herself took the issue to the Security Council.
@Blithe: 75% indians??? lol.............u r wrong......its actually 101% indians......get ur facts correct sir!!!!!!!
Lol at the comments from Indians who are telling them to not to return. It's their country. Kashmir belongs to the muslims majority Kashmiris, and no one else.
@Cynical: Thanks. It was important for this to come from a Pakistani like you. To amplify your points: 1. The UN resolution is non-binding 2. Simla agreement was signed by Pakistan and India AFTER the UN resolution and it clearly states that all disputes between the 2 countries will be bilaterally resolved - in other words no role for UN. Effectively Simla agreement supercedes the UN resolution on Kashmir from an operational perspective.
@Jat: You show insulting language - it shows lack of vocabulary .
Here are some other points for you to chew over:
5) corruption like the telecom scandal that cost India's exchequer USD 40bio , is rampant. Ease of doing business in India is worse than in Pakistan - one reason cited is the institutional corruption in India. This negative India will continue .
6) disparity between rich and poor, wedded in the casts system , will continue to be a serious problem for India. Gini coefficient in India is far worse than in Pakistan .
7) female infanticide / selective absorption is the worst in the world in India. In the future Indian men will not find ladies to marry and will get frustrated . Ratio at birth in India is 112: 100 ( in Pakistan it is the same as in UK , 105: 100) . A reason why Pakistan has a near normal ratio is because the Islamic religion does not permit female infanticide ( whereas Hindu religion is not clear on this )
8) Indians will continue to vote on caste and not Ideas ( Mayawati example in UP). Indians are so fractured that they will not be able to vote beyond caste and language .
9) Indian government and universities are working on caste quotas . This will continue to create problems of meritocracy in India.
10) 75 percent of Indians live below USD 2 a day , far more in Pakistan . The veneer of 'India Shinning' has already come off and more frustrated Indians will continue to write frustrated articles / post comments on ET.
@Blithe: you are deluded. naxals want to convert india into communist india. do you wish to see communist India with compulsory military like china and mindless arm race. indian constitution have 16 languages as indian languages and speaking anyone of them is personal right- its not like pakistan that every one leave aside their culture and language for urdu or punjabi- reason for pakistan losing bangladesh and now baluchistan. UN resolution calls for pakistan first moving out of kashmir followed by india. pakistan is not ready to move that means its not ready to have plebiscite just having crocodile tears
Here is the relevant again – if the moderators allow it to be published here
PART II TRUCE AGREEMENT Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.
A. (1) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State. (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. (3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission.
B. (1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission. (2) Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the Commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary. (3) The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within their power to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human and political rights will be guaranteed.
C. (1) Upon signature, the full text of the Truce Agreement or communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.
@Blithe: Yes just wait for the thousand cuts,
@Blithe: wake up and smell coffee..must be high on drugs..lol..
@Blithe: Don't think you know an iota of what India stands for..I am a Tamilian don't think i need to learn Hindi just for the sake of it..at the same time i am also a proud Indian..India is known for its "Unity in Diversity"..we are not like Pakistanis who confuse everything with the same thinking..I can only pity your poor IQ..
@Blithe: 1)... 2)... 3)...
You forgot the fourth - a Pakistani has landed on moon using a suicide jacket...
When you are dreaming, dream big, you fool !
@Baji Please @sohaibzeshan
Have you ever read the UN resolution in full? Most likely you haven't and just heard about it. Its much more complicated than you think, and surely not a one way ticket. That's why it is gathering dust for last 65 years.
1) Naxalites movement has consumed 45 percent of India. This is an insurgency that will lead to East separating from the West.
2) Almost 50 percent of Indians refuse to speak Hindi (on purpose as they do not believe in union of India). Such fissures and popular politics on caste and linguistics will expedite breakup of India.
3) Kashmir occupation of India is a violation of UN resolutions and is a untenable position . Kashmiris will get independence from India. This will create a domino effect . India will die by a thousand cuts.
@Shah,
Then why did my cousin went to his honeymoon in Kashmir this year without any passports or visa?
Why did people of Kashmir vote in Indian elections?
Cannot win a simple election, but have taken on the mantle of representing the entire Kashmiri population. Whoa!
@karisma Rathod:
Kashmir is not a part of India....
@ET, - Please Stop Calling "Indian occupied Kashmir " as indian Kashmir, For God Sake Pleasssssssse
@Polpot: She must be ayesha from india....
@Zeux: Get Real O! Baivkoof..
Its Indian-OCCUPIED-Kashmir not indian kashmir editor @ET
They will be told - it is game over.
@ayesha: I salute your courage in expressing what you feel. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Get rid of the Mullahcracy !
Learning from Pakistans ECL: Exit Control List, let us Indians develop another ECL: Entry Control List and not permit these traitors to return. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Let them stay with Dawood.
@Sidewinder: why should India? pak-punjabis should leave Baluchistan and accept their right
ya ya keep him with u..........he is a pain here...........we are fed up of keeping under house arrest again and again,,,,,,,,,,,,adopt him and discuss kashmir...............
India should prepare red carpet for Baluch separatists in N Delhi....
“We will be meeting members of the ruling party, opposition leaders and government officials,” ruling party,opposition and government officials---they don't even have a clue what is happening in Pakistan; how will they establish peace in Kashmir?
Include the military also, they have been sending young brainwashed men for charity and development across the border for more than 2 decades.
They should discuss Pakistani Kashmir rather than Indian Kashmir, and also Baluchistan.
@Go: its a reality,sooner or latter you have to accept it
must be a worried lot after the Pakistan internior ministry praised india's handling of insrgencies.
" Muslim-majority Kashmir, which Pakistan and India both claim but rule in parts, has been racked by militancy since 1989 when an insurgency against Indian rule erupted.""
"hefty, decades-long military assistance to Pakistan, which it used to incite proxy militants to crush socio-economic reform at home and commit aggression against its neighbours.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Both above in inverted commas are quotes from Todays ET. Putting two and two together its clear who is behind the militancy in Indian Kashmir !.
"Indian Kashmir"....how many times will ET make this mistake?
Stay away from Pakistan please,our situation is already known by the world,instead be a part of India to prosper instead you'll never be able to prosper because of insane Mullahs of Pakistan..
Dont come back....
very good move
I wonder how many non-Muslim leaders have been invited by Pakistan. After all, they make up one-third the population of the state and the Hindus and Buddhists lived in the region centuries before the Muslims 'arrived' (I'm being kind here).
welcome home MIr waiz sahib
Do not return.
Indian Kashmir and not Indian-held Kashmir? W*w ET, how easy it is for you to ignore the UN resolution where it said Kashmir is a disputed region.
@Indian: "Visa ready. Go !!!"
And all those who like Pakistan, don't come back. India is for Indians.
Sooner Kashmir will be part of Pakistan InshaAllah.
I guess they are desperate to revive their relevance in kashmir. this is the profits of conflict that the gainers dont want to give up. Hope Pakistan does have the money to give these leaders.
& Don't come back !!
why dont muslims who want to be a part of Pakistan , migrate to Pakistan. Just leave India.
"Indian Kashmir leaders to hold talks in Pakistan" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In another hour ET will be profusely apologizing to its Pakistani readers for using the phrase Indian Kashmir in place of Indian Held Kashmir.
Its time for India to invite the TTP & Baluchistan Separatists and withdraw the invite to the Cricket Team ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Reveals Pakistan for what it truly is.
Visa ready. Go !!!