India, Pakistan clash over Kashmir at UN
Reacting to Indian External Affairs Minister SM Krishna's assertion earlier in the day that last week's remarks by President Asif Ali Zardari remarks on Kashmir were "unwarranted", Pakistan's Deputy Permanent Representative Raza Bashir Tarar defended the Pakistani leader's statement as the dispute, he said, remained unresolved.
"Let me begin by emphasizing that the reference to the Jammu and Kashmir dispute in the President of Pakistan's statement was not 'unwarranted'," Ambassador Tarar said, while exercising his right of reply to the Indian minister's statement, in which Krishna had also claimed that the Himalayan state was an "integral part" of India.
"Let me also make it absolutely clear that Jammu and Kashmir is neither an integral part of India nor has it ever been," the Pakistani envoy told the 193-member Assembly.
Zardari had reaffirmed in his speech that Pakistan "will continue to support the right of the people of Jammu & Kashmir to peacefully choose their destiny in accordance with the UN Security Council's long-standing resolutions on this matter".
Kashmir, he said, remained a symbol of the failures of the United Nations system rather than its strengths. The president went on to say that a solution could only be reached in an environment of cooperation.
Indian delegate Vinay Kumar, responding to references by Ambassador Tarar of Pakistan, insisted that Jammu and Kashmir states were an integral part of India, adding that Pakistan's "illegal occupation" of parts of the region was in violation of India's territorial integrity and international law.
India, he added, rejected Pakistan's claim in its entirety. Exercising his right of reply for a second time, Ambassador Tarar said the disputed status of Jammu and Kashmir had been set out in Security Council resolutions and agreed upon by both Pakistan and India.
As such, characterizing the region as an integral part of India was untenable, he said, adding that the people of Jammu and Kashmir had not exercised their right to self-determination.
COMMENTS (73)
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@Kaddu: Please continue with your illegal occupation of Kashmir, keep the Kashmiris subjugated and oppressed, keep denying them the basic rights enjoyed by other Indians, keep killing innocent civilians and bury them in mass graves. Keep up the utter disregard to human rights, civil rights and liberties. Be totally inflexible and harden your attitude towards Kashmiris. This will surely make India great and strong (sic) Replace Kashmir with Balochistan/Waziristan and Indians with Pakistanis in the above statement and read it again, you will understand that mirror sometimes shows harsh realities stark into the face....
@Sting--Fragile: To add to what Sting-Fragile said
Don't forget tortured bodies with drilled holes thrown on the road to scare the Baloch. And of course the Taliban playing football with heads of Pakistani soldiers, who were just doing their job.
@Kaddu: No harm dreaming. Please continue with your illegal occupation of baluchistan, keep the balochis subjugated and oppressed, keep denying them the basic rights enjoyed by other Pakistanis, keep killing innocent civilians and bury them in mass graves. Keep up the utter disregard to human rights, civil rights and liberties. Be totally inflexible and harden your attitude towards balochis. This will surely make Pakistan great and strong (sic)
@ Somesh
No harm dreaming. Please continue with your illegal occupation of Kashmir, keep the Kashmiris subjugated and oppressed, keep denying them the basic rights enjoyed by other Indians, keep killing innocent civilians and bury them in mass graves. Keep up the utter disregard to human rights, civil rights and liberties. Be totally inflexible and harden your attitude towards Kashmiris. This will surely make India great and strong (sic)
in related news: We have started work on a tunnel between Sonmarg and Leh in order to provide all-weather connectivity to the area......and once it is done....a 13 KM long tunnel will be built between Srinagar and Kargil under the Zozila Pass.for the same reason.....work on railway line connecting Srinagar with rest of the country is nearing completion........ this is my reply to those demanding plebiscite/referendum etc etcI am a Kashmiri and Pakistan is part of Kashmir. Indians are an integral part of bollywood. Kashmir is an integral part of Pakistanhood.
@ yuri
Its not only kashmir, its Khalistan, nagaland, tripura, maoists and 70 other insurgencies across India. The 'universal principal' you are applying will make at least 70 pieces of India. Lead the way, and we will follow you. Pakistanis won't mind it. Lets see who is hypocrite now.
Kashmir is the Achilles heel of India. Its the tail that wags the dog. Kashmir will be the main reason behind India's undoing. The more 'inflexible' India will be on this issue, the better for Pakistan and Kashmir. Kashmir is the fire that is slow boiling India, slow bleeding it.
Pakistan is going to declare India as a "Most Favorite Nation" and enhancing and boosting trade,business,visa and traveling ties with India for comradeship and on the other hand the ground realities have been differentiating because India is and always has been showing cold shoulders and using delaying tactics and lame excuses to resolve burning and core "Kashmir" issue by giving this statement that "Kashmir is the India's integral part"..... All this situation has been impossible to understand because this is confirmed that "Kashmir" is the most important issue to be resolved on top priority basis as soon as possible for the comradeship between India-Pakistan and their people...... Kashmir has been complicated and India is not prepared to withdraw from its stance/standpoint regarding Kashmir and Kashmir's issue....
@ParvezM:
Replace "Kashmir" with "Baluchistan" and "Dilli" with "Islamabad" if you can. A moral principle should be applied universally otherwise it's just hypocrisy.
@Tony Singh: "BTW why does Zardari puts Benazir’s pic on the podium every time he addresses UN assembly? Any comments? Would love to read them."
How would anyone recognize him without that ? And Benazir used a pic of ZAB; who in turned used pics of Saudi and Turk rulers... you get the point.
@Shameless Indian: As in 1971 ? Do you want photographs of the surrender ceremony ? Who protected the lives of 93,000 Pak soldiers from the revenge seeking Bengalis ?
According to your theory; all the 93,000 whom surrendered were women and children ? You sure you don't want to see some pics from that time ?
@ Fellow Indian Trolls
Before asking Pakistan to handover our 'atoot ang' why dont we first get aksai chin from China? Fact is that when chinese want the rest of Kashmir, we will be totally impotent. Our fat cat army is just good for killing and torturing unarmed men, women and children. When it comes to fighting 'real men' they become mice.
BTW why does Zardari puts Benezir's pic on the podium everytime he addresses UN assembly? Any comments? Would love to read them.
@Kashmiri - Srinagar: I am also from J& K if you want to be Pakistani you can go & live in Pakistan but Kashmir will always be an intergral part of India come what may
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/nG288IzydUP6Z3ycS63AOJ/Rahul-Gandhi-invites-biz-leaders-to-interact-with-Kashmir-st.html
Above link shows how India owns and cares for its peaceful and patriotic Kashmiri citizens. All Pakistanis and many Indians don't even realize that how much today Kashmiris are part of Indian mainstream. I work for a reputed Indian IT company and I have 3 Kashmiris in my team of 35 people (2 in India and 1 in US). We sit together and laugh at reactions of Pakistanis. Just to be clear, all Kashmiris here are Muslims as that is what Pakistanis care about.
Kashmiri rahega Hindustan...Inshallah!!! :)
I am a Kashmir and I want my own identity, because I have my own culture I have my own language. We want to live as an independent country neither India nor Pakistan but this is a fact that we love Pakistan
The discussion on Kashmir is an exercise in futility since this issue cannot be solved even in the next 50 years. Due to political and home compulsions, Pakistan has to raise this issue at UN repeating its six decades old points and India replies accordingly of its known stand of the similar period. India is fully reconciled that Pakistan would continue to send the terrorists across the LoC and its security forces killing them shall also continue thus making nil impact of so called freedom struggle on India. However, situation in Kashmir is very peaceful and economy of the state is booming due to visit of record number of tourists and commencement of newly laid rail services. Pakistan for its own welfare needs to forget Kashmir issue and focus on its economy and elimination of terrorism in the country which will benefit people in both countries to live peacefully and achieve progress due to reduction of wasteful defense expenditure.
@naeem khan Manhattan,Ks:
India does not tell the world that it is the world's largest democracy. It is now the world that acknowledges that India is the world's largest democracy. Pakistan has a pseudo democracy with no relevance for the people of Pakistan. There is no such thing as of the people, by the people and for the people in Pakistan. It has had a long reign by military dictators who raped the freedom of Pakistanis and brainwashed them with their fictitious history, making them feel they are "superior" to Indians and that they are the "descendents" of Arabs who, incidentally, look upon them with contempt and scorn. As far as Kashmir is concerned, the UN resolution is, to use the international diplomatic jargon, in a "dormant state". There is no state in the world willing to rake this resolution. This is true even of Pakistan's so-called "all-weather friend" China or the OIC countries. The resolution has already been superseded by the Shimla Agreement in 1972 which provides that Kashmir will be discussed in a bilateral context. The use of armed forces (followed by acts of terrorism) has further defeated Pakistan's already hollow arguments about claims to Kashmir. Incidentally, if Kashmir is a "disputed territory", as Pakistan keeps calling it, then it has committed a serious violation of international law because it has donated a chunk of this real estate to China without first attaining a final resolution of the "disputed territory". No party is allowed to effect any material change of a "disputed territory" until a final resolution is attained under international law.
That referendum that Pakistan is asking for in the whole of Indian Jammu & Kashmir is never going to happen, since India is certainly not going to risk losing that much territory with no compensation. On sectarian grounds, Pakistan may have a claim to Kashmir valley and Poonch district of Jammu, but certainly not to most of Jammu and all of Ladakh. Even Kargil is Balti Shia, and I doubt Pakistan is going to win popularity contests among Baltis anytime soon.
If Pakistan wants Kashmir valley so badly, they should start asking India what they want in trade for it that would be acceptable. If Pakistan were to offer Baltistan (Skardu and Ghanche districts) and a peace treaty in exchange for Kashmir valley, India might at least think about it, since those troops garrisoned in the valley are costing India a whole lot of money.
Continuing to try acquiring Kashmir by infiltration and force is not going to work out for Pakistan, since India is stronger militarily and China won't support Pakistan if it is the aggressor in a war, as 1999 has shown already.
@Raja Poras: Sorry dude, I am Kashmiri and I can't agree with what you wrote - please speak for yourself and not for all Kashmiris.
@Syedshah: keep hallucinating Sir, and spreading lies - your gullible population must be loving it.
@naeem khan Manhattan,Ks: Goa is an island ? Sir, you are truly a very knowledgeable person. Do you by any chance teach in one of the famous universities of America ?
Sir, you should immediately return to Pakistan and help your country with your great experience and understanding of history.
Well Mr. Zardari, "BYE, BYE" Mr. Manmohan Singh's visit to Pakistan. You surely know how to derail progress.
These shameless indians know that they are commit crimes against humanity yet have audacity to come here on Pakistani websites to show their utter stubborness. No body cares what you indian trolls think. Fact is Kashmiri people who are legitimate owners of the land Kashmir demands freedom from occupier india
@gaurav: Now let's promote that diplomat!
Whenever a politician in Pakistan feels that his seat is in trouble or he wants brownie points from people he talks 'Kashmir Kashmir'. How can anyone imagine that India is going to even negotiate this issue. India was not afraid of the entire world in 71 and 99 even when Richard Nixon wanted to blast us, how do you think it is going to be intimidated now?
@Naked Truth: neither is going to happen.
To all educated, intelligent Pakistanis - If you really want to save your country, open your eyes and mind. To get an idea about what dirty deeds your establishment has been up to; go listen to "Aapas ki baat" of Najam Sethi aired on Geo TV on 19th September. Listen and try to understand what Sethi says from 18 minutes onward.
Try to catch hold of the original recording as it seems the deep state has edited out a very interesting point, from the recording available on youtube.
To all Indians - If someone has the original recording, without the missing line, please let me know. It is important.
It's amazing how many indians are skewing the recommend button this site. Please stick to your own propaganda media outlets because we will tolerate none of it here. You guys are just in awe of us arent you?
and btw, Kashmir is part of Pakistan. I might say that all of India is Pakistan's too.
Analyee the raking up of the Kashmir issue with what is happening in the neighbourhood. First, the US is making statements indicating that the stabilization of Afghanistan may be impossible. This is a shot in the arm of organizations such as D.e.P. The ruling dispensation in a bid to undercut potential competitors ( D.e.P, etc ) for power has no option but to talk about Kashmir.
Kashmir future is for Kashmiris to decide, Dilli can have attoot ang or what ever.
Simple solution for Kahmir issue,to give the independence to Indian Kashmir and declare India as a hindu nation.
All territory of former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir legally belongs to India. As for people living there, if pakistanis love the people in Kashmir so much, you can invite them to Pakistan.
What I don't understand is the Indians never ever stop telling the world that it is the largest democracy in the world but they failed to mention that democracy is only for some and not all. Kashmir is a disputed area and why are they so afraid to have a free plebiscite and let the Kashmiris decide as India has accepted the UN Security Council resolution about the free plebiscite. Perhaps they should go back to the Security Council and change the resolution and then make it a integral part of the country. Goa island was another case where Indian forces took over the island by force and now claim it is integral part of India. Indians always points out about Pakistan's Baluchistan and KP but there was no Security Council resolutions about these provinces and yes, it is integral part of Pakistan. Although ASSAM could be considered India's integral part but one should ask the Assamese how do they feel about it and oh yeah don't forget the Sikhistan.
Decades passed,hundred and hundred of thousand died on this issue but it is still stand at its old place.In case ,any one think it will be solved,think he is living fool's paradise.
Disputed issue between the two rival nuclear armed states has become flashpoint it may be any time blasted.
In such circumstance ,duty of the United Nation be alerted and take out the way leading to peace and security of the region.
Right of self determination,resolution passed by United Nations' assembly all are proved heap of rubbish. Powers played a role not according to the international justice.prominent figures had been play a game of self interests.
wars were fought over Kashmir issue,hundred of thousand men ,women and children killed but the leaders had been clapping on every leader's speech.
United Nation is a fashion house really fashion house and silent spectator also. Some time i feel,this global institution is helpless before world's nuclear armed states.It has no law,called international law .This league of nation hear those who know screaming and providing aid to this wide and large institution.
In recent days,middle east states were ignited by well known conspirators but it had played no role.Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and destroyed but U.N. raised no voice against the horrible outrage of the world people. The fact is that this institution has lost its credibility it has become subject to finish. Dire need of the time it build a new institution with new rules there is country poor or rich have veto power.
To clinch a lifetime's argument That nothing comes from violence and nothing ever could For all those born beneath an angry star Lest we forget how fragile we are
@gaurav
That's not a real story. That's just a joke.
However, you cannot expect logic and reasoning from Pakistanis. They won't take your point.
OK I will tell you a real story which happened in the past in UN. As we all know Kashmir was named after maharishi kashyap.
In UN security council Indian diplomat said in his opening remark " When 1 nice morning maharishi Kashyap was taking bath in river, he left his clothes near river. After shower when he came back those clothes were not there. After investigation it was determined that a pakistani stoled those clothes.
Listening to this remark, pakistani diplomat stood up from their seat and countered that Indian diplomat is telling lie, the fact of the matter is We(Pakistani) were non existential at that time.
Indian Diplomat smiled and said 1st point proven now lets come to other facts.
@Max who writes "U Indian trolls sure do have a lot of time. "
Well, the recession.
@Syedshah:
I am from Hyderabad and I am yet to find a Muslim in Hyderabad who misses Pakistan. BTW, the dethroned Nizam of Hyderabad remain a fond admirer of Sardar Patel since the time of accession. The king was fine and so are the subjects (Kasim Rizvi was deported to Pakistan). So, what's your problem.
@rajeev (Indian): I'll take Baluchistan..... for now...
@Jat: FATA, NWFP, Balochistan ....................
@Syedshah
It invaded Hyderabad against the will of its 'people' ??
sorry but for your kind information let me clear that it was not the people but the luxury loving nawab !! i welcome you to come to Hyderabad and scream in front of chaarminar questioning people who want 'independence' from 'tyrant India' ? .I bet you would get nothing in reply but glares from the folk staring at you for your mad question !!
@Raja Poras: How pathetic can you be ? It was Pakistan’s Deputy Permanent Representative Raza Bashir Tarar who talked about UN resolution. And now I have laid bare, with facts, the reality of UN resolution, you call it semantics and want to discuss ground facts ?
OK here we go. We will talk ground facts; the ground fact is you occupy less than 1/3 of Kashmir, and if you don't begin to act like a responsible nation, you will lose that too.
Bangladesh is a ground fact and so is Siachin. What is it going to be next ?
@Kashmiri - Srinagar: Each year thousands of your fellow countrymen (Indian) visit Jammu & Kashmir (One of the state of India) and provide bread & butter to them.
@Max: Have you lost your brain.Even a single Hindu (sane or insane) from India is not in favor of giving an inch of land to pakistan.You wanna clear your doubt. Go and visit TOI.You will find thousands of comments on the same topic abusing pakistan.
@Max: Oh really and who are you to tell a country of 1.2 billion people what to do or not do ?
According to your theory, Baloch, Pashtoons, Punjabis, Sindhis, Hazaras, Mohajirs and Seraikis should also be allowed to decide their own fates. And yes, we will need three enclaves for Ahmedis, Hindus and Christians. And a sovereign Tea/Coffee house for Pakistani liberals.
Lol. U Indian trolls sure do have a lot of time. Face it, neither sane Pakistanis nor sane Indians care much for Kashmir, it is merely used and exploited by moronic war-mongers on each side. Kashmir should be allowed to be free to decide their own fate.
My dear Pakistani friends, please don't read too much on this friendly match between the two countries on Kashmir which was well played in UN by your smart President, reminding decades old UN resolution and support to Kashmiris etc etc purely for home consumption. India responded back with its decades old statement of Kashmir being integral part of India etc etc which too was for home consumption only. This friendly match again ended in an honorable draw and the trophy(Kashmir) was shared by both countries.
@Syedshah: haha buddy keep living in the past, we have no intentions of joining you, btw im from jammu tawi
@ Jat
Indians are THE problem!!
I know Indian's love for semantics. What really matters are facts on ground. We do not trust Indians and rightly so. You can dream whatever, Kashmir is for Kashmiris as it had been for centuries. Kashmiris do not want Indian rule. No matter how many you kill and dump in mass graves. No matter how many your torture. You can take their lives but you will never take their freedom.
"Kashmir banega Pakistan" Inshahallah!
@Jat well said mate!! They are illiterate.
We saw your love for Kashmir when you guys infiltrated Kashmir with savages terrorists to kill innocents. Even Azad kashmir(which hardly Azad by the way) is part of India. They have this habit of stealing.. snatching which is not rightfully theirs. Look what they did to Afghanistan.
@kashmiri-Srinagar who writes "Kashmir banega Pakistan"
You missed Inshahallah!
I must ask to the government of India to settle her differences with government of Pakistan because in near future nobody asks for Kashmir, everyone will ask for Northern India.
"Kashmir banega Pakistan" ++++++++++++++++++ And Pakistan will, win T20 against India.
@Kashmiri - Srinagar
Kashmir is integral part of Pakistan – both geogrphically and religiously. the basis of formation of Pakistan. If you have doubts please visit srinagar on your next vacations. Kashmir banega Pakistan
What about leh-ladhak areas,would these hindu-buddhist majority regions where these peoples have lived from thousands of years peacefully practicing their religion...will they like to join pakistan?! NO!!!
And no matter how much kashmir is shown to be 'islamic' but the truth is that in indian tradition one of the biggest sect of hinduism ,'kashmir shaivism' has been born and practiced in kashmir for thousands of years.It was kept alive by the kashmiri pandits the original inhibitors of that place until separatists funded from across the border massacred them and they were forced to flee. Kashmir is and will always remain an integral part of India.
Kashmir is a good Time Pass for pakistan. what else can they raise in UN? vertainly not their support of non state terrorists.
So much for bilateral talks and confidence building measures, all use less as always.
Pakistanis have a problem understanding simple English.
PART II
TRUCE AGREEMENT (United Nations)
Simultaneously with the acceptance of the proposal for the immediate cessation of hostilities as outlined in Part I, both Governments accept the following principles as a basis for the formulation of a truce agreement, the details of which shall be worked out in discussion between their Representatives and the Commission.
A. (1) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State. (2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. (3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission. B. (1) When the Commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistan nationals referred to in Part II A2 hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistan forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of their forces from the State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission. (2) Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the Commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary. (3) The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within their power to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human and political rights will be guaranteed. C. (1) Upon signature, the full text of the Truce Agreement or communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.
And then there is this small matter of large piece of land of "disputed territory", as acknowledged by Pakistan ambassador, illegally ceded to China. How can you sell, cede, surrender something that you don't legally own ?
@Kashmiri - Srinagar: Ditto,
Kashmir is for Kashmiris. India will never be given satisfaction of 'owning' Kashmir. Kashmir was invaded by Indian Army in 1947 against the will of Kashmiri people. Indian Army, the whole 0.7 million of it, will have to move back to India as they can not legitimately stay in Kashmir. After all India claims herself as largest democracy. isn't it?
Pakistan could have gained far more from India by conducting peaceful negotiations with India. Because of its policy of terrorism and sggressions, it will not get an inch of J&K territory from India
It always will boil down to this core, mother of all issues, regardless of the bane attempts to whitewash history with inane liberalism and blinkered hubris. The only difference to the intended solutions in respective countries whenever Kashmir is tackled will be leverage and wriggle room created with relative space for each. To that end the struggle continues.
If unable to understand, a benign translation is available at around seventy Kilometers from Lahore.
@Zoro: Kashmir is integral part of Pakistan - both geogrphically and religiously. the basis of formation of Pakistan. If you have doubts please visit srinagar on your next vacations.
Kashmir banega Pakistan
NOTTT an inch of Kashmir will be given away ...
It is India's megalomania that makes it do what it does. It invaded Hyderabad against the will of its people and occupied it. It had invaded a peaceful, prosperous and the best governed state that was rendered defenceless by the Brits. not returning their arms from their assignment in The Middle East.
India waited till QA MA Jinnah's death and started the invasion the same day. The powerless UN was a mute spectator. India earlier had invaded Kashmir too again against the will of the people. Thankfully UN got active coz India took the case to the UN. But India never honored its commitment.
It can never be an integral part of India against the will of the people of Kashmir. Just because we are unable to do good diplomacy and manage media internationally India is able to get away with this aggression and atrocities over the divided nation of Kashmir. We have so many positives but we are in the news for all the wrong reasons.
Kashmir, he said, remained a symbol of the failures of the United Nations system rather than its strengths. And Bangladesh remains a symbol of the failures of Pakistani system rather than its strengths and Balochistan is going to remain as a symbol of the failures the Pakistani system rather than its strengths.....