Mumbai attacks: ATC rejects judicial report
The ATC-II court judge, Chaudhry Habibur Rehman, said that the report, compiled by the nine-member Pakistani judicial commission and their Indian counterparts, was unlawful because it did not give the defendants the right to cross-examine the witnesses.
Rehman further stated that the commission’s report – including statements of the witnesses – cannot be used against the accused arrested in Pakistan without giving them the right to a cross-examination.
The court further ruled that the agreement between the governments of Pakistan and India on the probe should be dissolved and a new agreement be chalked out.
Counsel of Lashkar-e-Taiba co-chairman, Abdul Rehman Makki, had earlier argued that the Indian authorities did not allow the defense counsel to interrogate, hence the report holds no legal importance.
The Pakistani commission of defense lawyers, prosecutors and a court official had gone to India on a four-day tour to gather evidence for the prosecution of suspects linked to the 2008 Mumbai attacks in March, 2012.
The commission met with police officials who were involved in the investigation in Mumbai and doctors who conducted the autopsies of the terrorists and victims.
The commission had visited India in pursuance of an order of the Rawalpindi ATC to record the statements of four key witnesses.
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@jagjit sidhoo: I see no problem with that. Our courts do accept marriage vows telephonically exchanged thousands of miles apart. But I am not a nit picking defense lawyer so not dead sure. In any case the proposal should come from Indian Govt. A representative from Pakistan High Commission (New Dehli) can submit an affidavit certifying the identity of the prosecution witnesses by being physically present on the other side.
Unfortunately the Indian Govt. seems more interested in using 26/11 to browbeat Pakistan and extracting the last drop of political capital out of it. Govts like TV channels are always after ratings.
Excellent decision by the Pakistan court. Congratulations Sir
Now, next step should be to make Hafiz Saeed the Prime Minister of Pakistan , so that Pakistan will have an even greater future than now
@Mr S: in samjohta express case the accused is behind the bars besides being an army personell.Does pakistani courts even have power or will to do so?
@Hasan Mehmood: I feel allowing the accused to cross examine the witness in Mumbai from the trail court in Rawalpindi via video conferencing is the best option. Special situations demand special solutions. Would like your views on this.
@harkol: Sarcasm won't get you anywhere. I am damn sure the lower Indian courts would have done the same. Pl ask your govt. to remove all legal excuses and help us in getting rid of these terrorists which are a much greater threat to us.
Why do these terrorists need a Defense attorney? The court does a good job of it!
@Tony Singh: I understand your anguish and I believe allowing cross examination of witnesses (as a special case) falls within (any means) mentioned by you. Whatever reservations your govt.may have must be insignificant compared to the larger goal of prosecuting the perpretators of 26/11 carnage. Pl use yr common sense and for once in a blue moon try blaming your own govt. We do it all the time but I I have yet to see an Indian stepping outside the foreign office brief. Inspite of being more democratic and open, why do Indians always toe the official line in all external matters.
The behaviour of Pakistani courts is in line with the expectations (denials,denials and more denials). However I do not understand the behaviour of our Indian Government. Why this govt. does not understand that we Indians want our govt to use any means, overt or covert to bring the masterminds of this attack to justice.
@Singh: The reference to GUJRAT was in context of judicial failure to deliver justice (purely from a civil society point of view and not legal point of view). It was not an attempt at point scoring unlike you. In the same spirit I will not respond with counter examples from within INDIA.
@Lala Gee: the list of witnessess was predetermined prior to the departure of the judicial commission. Kasab was never on the list to begin with. The witness on the list were judical officials in India like prosecutor, judges, police inspectors etc You are confusing Kasab as a witness verses judicial officials.
When Indian Judicial commission visits Pakistan for which India has already made a request and Pakistan not yet complied ( after Pakistan reciprocates the permission India granted ) , as per the treaty between India and Pakistan, Pakistan too wont allow India to question the LeT terrorists accused and in Pakistan custody. The treaty allows for examining judicial records and judicial personnel only.
In a nut shell, Pakistan's ATC-II court judge has declared unlawful the report prepared by Pakistan's own nine-member Judicial Commission Report. Could there be anything more of a mockery than this ? Pakistan's Court has mocked openly a Judicial Report Prepared by its own Judicial Commission, No wonder Pakistan's Judiciary is everyone's laughing stock and is disregarded by everyone, including most in Pakistan.
@Lala Gee: "The actual fact is that the defense council did not cross examine a single witness because the Indian government refused to allow them to cross question any witness despite insistence of judicial commission and the defendants’ lawyers. Strange, isn’t it?"
Not a all strange. The agreement was to provide access to Pakistan's judicial commission to the members of Indian judicial commission. There was never an agreement to allow access to convicts. After coming to India, the judicial commission wanted to enlarge the scope of their task which India did not permit. They were given all the access that they were promised before they started their journey.
@Zeta: "If you indians can’t let judicial commission to cross interrogate the witnesses. There is no use of it"
If Pakistan had felt that way, they should not have sent the judicial commission in the first place when it was very clear that they would be getting access to Indian judicial functionaries and not convicts.
Kasab asked Pakistan Government to provide him legal assistance before his trial started in the Indian Courts. He made repeated appeals on public TV and also sent several written requests to Pakistan Embassy in India asking Pakistan Government to provide him legal assistance. He also asked Pakistan Government to appoint lawyers to represent him in the Indian Courts. India Government forwarded Kasab's requests to Pakistan and advised Pakistan Government that they can provide Kasab legal assistance during the trial and also that Pakistan's lawyers can represent him in the trial. Pakistan refused to provide him any legal assistance and also did not appoint a lawyer to represent him. Had Pakistan appointed a lawyer for Kasab, they could have not only defended Kasab in the Indian Courts but also could have questioned and guided him during the trial. Pakistan may think that Mumbai Attacks will be forgotten. It will not be and Pakistan will pay the price. The longer it takes, the more punitive interest shall keep adding.
@Lala Gee: Once again if you go to Wikipedia and search for "26/11", you will get to a full description of the Mumbai Attack, ALONG WITH THE NAMES AND ADDRESSES OF THE THE OTHER NINE PAKISTANI TERRORISTS WHO WERE KILLED!
Why India did not let the the defendent to cross examine the witness??????
There must be something india is hiding from Pakistan. Good Judgement from Pakistan court.
@Hasan Mehmood: You are talking about Gujrat. Have you brought justice to thousands of Shias, Ahmedis, Hazaras ho have been killed in Sectarian riots? recently there were news about destruction of Ahmedis worship place and ban on Shia, Ahmedi sites.
@Wajahat Laeeq: On this page with so much hot air how did a sensible comment like yours sneak in, my your tribe grow.
@Mr S, then why PCB requested (dont misunderstand me I am just using a decent word) BCCI to have Indo-Pak Cricket series? Why PCB agreed to play at non-neutral place without revenue sharing? You should not have done that until the justice to Samjhota victims was brought. Who is willing to have ties with India?
@Wajahat Laeeq
You make perfect sense. You are absolutely right. I agree with you.
However, I don't understand how can you compare India with Pakistan, so simplistically? Would you like to answer that?
Hey Buddies, Its funny how elite play with all of us. Pakistani'es are dying in war of terror already about 36,000 lost lives and GOD knows how many are in the list of this lost cause. Indian despite of strong economy still a vast majority is below poverty level.
Bhuttos , sharifs , molana's ,ghandihs and Nehrus and generations never die or suffer what we (public) go through. They were born to rule and we are born to be ruled by them.
People on both sides should use common sense. All that Drama need to stop , Both sides need food more than weapon and both suffer thorough same elite in different uniforms.
This is how other jurisdiction have handled situation:
Use of previously admitted evidence 15.1(1)The tribunal may treat previously admitted evidence as if it had been admitted in a proceeding before the tribunal, if the parties to the proceeding consent. 1994, c. 27, s. 56 (30). Definition (2)In subsection (1), “previously admitted evidence” means evidence that was admitted, before the hearing of the proceeding referred to in that subsection, in any other proceeding before a court or tribunal, whether in or outside Ontario. Statutory Powers Procedure Act R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER S.22 Consolidation Period: From June 1, 2011 to the e-Laws currency date. Last amendment: 2009, c. 33, Sched. 6, s. 87.
@Lala Gee
Well sorry sir, I didn't realize I was knocking you out. Next time it will not be that strong, I will make it easy on you.
@Lala Gee:
In this world for you is different from the world rest of us live in.
@mr. righty rightist:
I guess that was too strong a dose.
@Lala Gee
Gee Lala gee, the cases you mentioned are India's internal matters. They do not concern Pakistan, unlike 26/11, Samjhauta, Kargil or even 1971.
Besides, court cases are on on all these cases. If there is military involved, then court martial are also on.
However YOU ARE RIGHT, in case of Gujrath, the justice has not been done.
The mob of Muslims who burnt down a train of Hindus should be held accountable for all 2,000 deaths in the riots. This we can't expect in a secular India, because blaming muslims (for all they are) is considered anti-Indian.
@antanu g
Well Antanu, on one hand, you Pakistanis expect to play with India because you are a pariah of the world and playing with India helps you kickstart international cricket.
On the other hand, you Pakistanis do not want justice done to the victims of Mumbai.
Don't you think, you Pakistanis are being hypocrites?
@antony: what a goodwill people like you are showing through your comments.
@Its (still) Econonmy Stupid:
"The lawyer for the accused also went to India too if they did not cross examin the witness whos fault it is? Not all witnessess are cross examined by the defense lawyers."
The actual fact is that the defense council did not cross examine a single witness because the Indian government refused to allow them to cross question any witness despite insistence of judicial commission and the defendants' lawyers. Strange, isn't it?
@mr. righty rightist:
"@Lala jee who writes ........ We understand the legal procedure. We are better off on the failed state index, because we deliver better justice and understand the procedure more than Pakistan ever did"
Your delivery of better justice is also appreciated in these reports of the Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch Organizations. Please read and enjoy.
1- Annual Report of Amnesty International for year 2012 (see section "Jammu and Kashmir"
2- India: A Decade on, Gujarat Justice Incomplete - Human Rights Watch 2012
3- India: Communal Violence and the Denial of Justice - Human Rights Watch
@ Shah
We will not forget Kashmir either. And the plight of half a million Pandits.
If you indians can't let judicial commission to cross interrogate the witnesses. There is no use of it. Frankly i don't give a damn anymore what these indians say, because their credibility is highly doubtful
@Hasan Mehmood:The accused should be allowed to cross examine the witness in Mumbai by video- conferencing from the courtroom in Rawalpindi this is 2012, get on with it and cut out the free trips at govt expense.
@Hasan Mehmood: Amongst the hot air on this page your comment seems to be a sober one . My question is did not this judicial commission know their report would be unacceptable to the ATC without the cross examination ? If they knew that(it was a judicial commission so they should have known) then why did they even come to India knowing that the agreement between the two countries did not allow for cross examination ? Should they not have asked for the agreement to be amended so that they could present a report which would be acceptable to the ATC ? However if the idea was just to have a all expenses paid VIP trip to Mumbai at govt expense all these questions are irrelevant .
@Cosmo:
yeah India is clean from Terrorism....read wht last terrorist caught in India said...HE USED TO RECRUIT INDIANS...indians muslims and other minority are not happy in India that is the root cause...
Pakistan also has such issues which we need to deal with...rather than point fingers on Pakistan or vice versa, we should try to work out our problems....
But it wont happen, because of currupt politicians from both sides.....PEACE
@jagjit sidhoo:
so wht is India trying to hide...just a simple question...
@Cautious:
when not enough proves are there...DUH...
@mr. righty rightist:
dude India is investigating was sarcasm...i hope you got it...doesnt matter ..discussing with people who just want to blame and do nothing is like hitting ur head on the wall...have a nice day...
@Lala Gee: Wasn’t it agreed between Pakistan and India (at the time of deciding to have a Pakistani judicial commission visit India), that this commission WOULD NOT cross examine the witnesses when it comes to India?
So how can an investigative report be considered "unlawful"?
The governments of India and Pakistan had signed an agreement, in which they had agreed that the judiciary of two countries, would co-operate and the statements of judicial officials of India and Pakistan, would be admissable, in each other countries. Its like saying, you would honor a bachelor of Engineering degree in each others countries. They did not agree to subject the accused to be cross examined by the other country but agreed that the judicial officials can be examined and their statements recorded. Pakistan today violated that treaty.
@Mr S: Right, " Samjhota.. masterminds sitting in Mumbai ?" and you are the Queen of Britain !!
@Shah
You have told the truth even in your sarcasm.
True. We are investigating and you are not. This has been the case since 1947.
Don't forget 1971.
Don't believe me? Read Hamudoor Rehman report. I can email it to you if you want. I haven't read a more biased, incomplete, apologetic sham as this report.
@mr. righty rightist:
yeah yeah ..we are not investigating and India is investigating cases in Kashmir. First try to make your own people happy ...there is a problem, find it and tackel it rather than blaming...
@Lala jee who writes "I have been saying this all along since the beginning that without giving the defense council their legal right to cross question the witnesses and Ajmal Kasab, no court in this world can lawfully convict the accused."
You seem to be a man of reason.
Answer my question. Has any Indian government official ever blamed your court? Please give proof, if so.
We understand the legal procedure. We are better off on the failed state index, because we deliver better justice and understand the procedure more than Pakistan ever did (just remember 1971).
The problem here is with your government, which is not investigating this any further and in fact, protecting the likes of Hafiz Saeed. India has given sufficient proof to your government to initiate its own honest investigation and provide acceptable proof to your courts.
Instead, your government uses this excuse and protects the terrorists.
Excellent. Pakistan has never supported a short-cut to justice and must not in the future. India has to learn to follow appropriate procedures, not just blame everybody else for their failures.
But wasn't it agreed between Pakistan and India (at the time of deciding to have a Pakistani judicial commission visit India), that this commission WOULD NOT cross examine the witnesses when it comes to India?
So why the fuss now?
Oh I get it!
That agreement was between the civilian government of Pakistan and the Govt of India. And any agreement entered by the civilian govt of Pakistan is worth less than dust in the eyes of Pakistani judiciary today.
Will the real sovereign authority in Pakistan please stand up and let the rest of the world know that they are the ones who will enter into agreements and make commitments and not this sham, pretender, democratically elected, legally constituted and constitutionally valid set of Ministers, President, Prime Minister and MNAs?
@ Cosmo
He actually did killed many Pakistanis and Pakistan should be included over that so called investigation and he was not alone ..what about the masterminds sitting in Mumbai ?
A sham trial.
Indian agencies usual blame game continues!!
It is time we release all the innocent Mumbai attack suspects because time and time again india has shown they are not serious about this case, most likely because they know their 'evidence' is a complete joke.
@Hemant:
Its extremely sad that Mumbai attack took place and I hope that never such attack ever take place in Pakistan or India or any other country in the world..REMEMBER Terrorists have no Religion nor any country. Till India cannot accept that, discussing the point is useless.....and the court has the right to probe the case according to the law and not by emotions....
Indians should not play and innocent game because Pakistan will also not forget Kashmir nor the screams of the innocent people slaughtered by Indian boots....
@Mr S:
India is always quiet when their names pop up.. India think that they are the most innocent in the world...but it forgets that every neighbour of India has a problem with it either its Nepal or Bangladesh..no one is happy to have them as a neightbour. Pakistan is the only one who comes forwards and they try to pressurize us using their international contact made by their economical growth...
@Mr S: Why should he be, did he commit a crime in Pakistan? By the way he's already behind the bars, initiated and based on investigations by India. You ignorance just amuses me!
Really unfortunate . Extremely sad . India will not forget 26/11 . The conspriacy was hatched and run from Pakistan . The culprits have to be punished .
This is the problem in Pakistan. Parliament does not trust judiciary and army; lower courts don't recognize reports of commissions. Looks like every institution in Pakistan is like a sovereign Pakistan. This makes very difficult for outsiders to deal with Pakistan as they don't know what is the real Pakistan. Even non-state actors think that they are the real Pakistan and not the army, judiciary or the parliament.
@antony: If things don't happen according to the wish of you Indians then everything is wrong. Everything is only right when the whims of India is followed. Grow up bruv
No surprises there and we are playing cricket with these guys. Stop all drama Pakistan.. we all know nothing is going to happen. Just admit and not waste our time.
One Judge says go get information. The other says information of no use. That os a smart Judicial system for the land of the pure!
I am surprised why indian authorities didnt allow the defense to cross examine the witnesses. This hence is not a fair trial.
@antony: So what is wrong with cross checking witness?
@ antony: I am also against relationship with India, they have yet not done anything against Samjhota Express militants which are required to be handed over to Pakistan.
This not a good development this will hamper the peace process .
Every Pakistani Institution is conspiring to make pakistan look a foolish country in the eyes of the world. Defending criminals is so appaling, and that too by the courts???!!! Oh dear..
@Shah: This is the reason why their is no progress in the relationship of 2 countries. Now next thing which is shortly expected is Mumbai type another incident because the extremists(like Hafiz Sayed) can't tollerate any improvement in relations between these 2 countries as this will defeat their political agenda of getting importance & Votes by spreading hatred.
Pakistan is a place where people like Hafiz Sayeed can become heroes, they can never be put behind bars as most of the masses are extremists.
@antony:
Yeah right GOOD WILL OF INDIA...thnx BUDDY for your GOOD WILL AND KEEP YOUR CRICKET TO URSELF...
Ongoing pressure game by India, making mockery of Pakistan’s current situation, not even attention worthy! 9/11-----26/11 my foot!!
This is the reason I want complete cut off of relationship with pakistan including cricket..they twist each and every progress and hamper good will from indian public towards pakistan.
They could have put the blame on India itself.