Mumbai card has worn thin

Published: July 17, 2010
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The writer hosts a show on Express 24/7 (quatrina.hosain@tribune.com.pk)

The writer hosts a show on Express 24/7 (quatrina.hosain@tribune.com.pk)

What chance does a dialogue have when one side turns up with cold ashes in the peace pipe? After this week’s meeting between the foreign ministers of Pakistan and India, it has become abundantly clear that India has no intention of improving relations with Pakistan. Clearly forced to the talks by foreign powers that have an interest in seeing the two South Asian rivals at some degree of cordial ties, Indian External Affairs Minister, S M Krishna,  arrived in Islamabad with a single agenda — that of trying to put Islamabad on the defensive by playing the David Coleman Headley card. Who is that, you may ask? Much to the chagrin of New Delhi, few in Pakistan other than the corridors of power in Islamabad and Rawalpindi, know of Headley, who is a household name in India, courtesy an Indian media obsessed by the ISI.

David Headley, born Daud Gilani and reported to be a scout for Lashkar-e-Taiba, is a Pakistani-American arrested in the US on charges of planning terror attacks in Denmark. He has claimed he was one of the planners of the Mumbai attacks and, adding plenty of masala, said he was funded by the ISI. This, of course, sent a tsunami through the rank and file of Indian officials who immediately demanded access to Headley. If a terrorist names the ISI, of course he is telling the truth. Obviously, he has no intention of trying to sow seeds of war between India and Pakistan. Clearly, terrorist organisations have nothing to gain if Pakistan and India revert to the hostilities of 2002 when the two countries drew to the brink of war before sanity prevailed and both sides pulled back from the abyss.

I have no deep knowledge of Mr Headley, his claims or his veracity. But it would help if everyone took a step back and viewed the situation with some degree of scepticism and a healthy dollop of common sense. You don’t have to be a master strategist to realise that if hostilities between India and Pakistan increase, Pakistan would be forced to divert troops to the eastern front —  troops that are critically needed on the western front to contain the terrorists who are sending suicide bombers into our markets, volleyball matches, peace jirgas and schools. About 170 people were killed in the attacks across Mumbai. We lose more of our people to terrorism every alternate month.  I refuse to be apologetic about the Mumbai attacks any more. The Mumbai card has worn thin and no longer elicits sympathy — not when we have to weep over our dead on a daily basis. Just how many Pakistanis have to die before the world sits up and sees Pakistan as the worst victim of global terrorism? Is there a magic number — 20,000, nay 50,000?

The dialogue between Pakistan and India is being held hostage by a group of terrorists who have everything to gain if there is no thaw in relations. The Indians virtually scuttled the talks by having their Indian interior secretary announce an ISI link to the Mumbai attacks on the eve of the talks in Islamabad. Is the Indian leadership truly myopic? We think about terrorism every day. We live with it every day. And if New Delhi cannot understand that, then there is little hope of moving the peace process forward.

Published in The Express Tribune, July 18th, 2010.

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Reader Comments (39)

  • Parvez
    Jul 18, 2010 - 2:01AM

    Quatrina, excellent commentary. Where is the sincerity from Indians? We should focus on domestic issues and forget about Indian demands. Recommend

  • SKChadha
    Jul 18, 2010 - 6:42AM

    Madam Quatrina Hosain,
    Let us forget about David Coleman Headley for a moment and remember Pakistan’s declaration that “It’s territory will not be allowed to be used against India”? Will you enlighten me what Pakistan has done for that till today? Only reading the ‘Literature’ supplied by India ………. !!! Further more, even after over eight years of such declaration Mr. Qureshi, in press briefing says that infiltration of terrorists from Pakistani side is India’s problem alone … !!! The sincerity of a nation is judged by its utterances when its officials term international terror dossiers as ‘Just Literature’ knowing well that terror is emanating from their soil or countering it by vague allegations about Baluchistan , Is it not?
    You state that “The Mumbai card has worn thin and no longer elicits sympathy — not when Pakistan has to weep over its dead on a daily basis.” Have you ever analyzed that present day terrorism in Pakistan is its own creation? What ever sufferings it is getting may be its misfortune or fruits of seeds sown by it in the past. On the other hand Mumbai carnage and infiltration is inflicted from Pakistani soil on India and is the major cause of NO TRUST. Here I am deliberately not using the words ‘trust deficit’ whether you agree or disagree? India does not require your or anybody else apology for such happenings. What we require, for international peace to which Pakistan is also committed, is the action against culprits of Mumbai carnage. Whosoever, they are and whatever be named by you? They may be state, non-state, in-state, out-state, over-state actors, establishments, enterprises, forces etc. Pakistan in bilateral dealings is required to ensure investigation on its soil to book the culprits. In the process it is Pakistan to see what ever law, democratic, dictatorial or religious, it applies for such bookings?
    Mind it, the dialogue is not held hostage by a group of terrorists, it is held hostage by inaction of the leadership. We do not need more crocodile tears, what we need is the action. How one can build trust or be in peace with a nation which is having gun tottering terrorist on its back and it covertly sheltering them and calling internationally recognized evidences as ‘mere literature’? In the beginning you have questioned India’s intention in improving relations with Pakistan, to my understanding; the FMs meeting was to test the waters before any further engagement or having confidence in each other. My dear sister, India is not in the habit of playing cards by sacrificing about 170 lives of its innocent citizens. I am sorry if I am bit harsh, but this is the reality for you from the other side.Recommend

  • Jul 18, 2010 - 8:55AM

    Quatrina,

    I respond to your article only because I respect your integrity; I know we often get so caught-up in the story that we forget that every story has many sides; and from each vantage point we see the same object a bit differently.

    I find following assertions curious:

    1- “Clearly forced to the talks by foreign powers that have an interest in seeing the two South Asian rivals at some degree of cordial ties..”

    India-Pakistan cordial ties are in my interest- and it is in your interest. We are the key stakeholders. America’s recent prodding of India is due to Pakistan’s insistence that Washington should play a role. It has actually backfired.

    2- “You don’t have to be a master strategist to realise that if hostilities between India and Pakistan increase, Pakistan would be forced to divert troops to the eastern front..”

    If anything has ‘worn thin,’ it is simply our childish threat. GHQ needs to stop playing this silly game and Pakistani journalists should stop reading this old template.

    3- “Just how many Pakistanis have to die before the world sits up and sees Pakistan as the worst victim of global terrorism? Is there a magic number — 20,000, nay 50,000?”

    You must be really tired because a person who is so compassionate about her cats cannot compare miseries as if they were ‘commodity prices.’ Ask mother of my neighbor in North Nazimabad, Karachi who lost her first born and she will till you that Farhat’s death was the end of the world for her. Ask mother of 22 year old Anshu and she will tell that no matter how many Pakistanis die, the hole in her heart will never heal.

    Before the world ‘sits up’ seriously and empathize, we (Pakistanis) must recognize where we went wrong. We must realize that we allowed ISI to become very powerful, we allowed Army to run our foreign policy and we are responsible for this mess.

    I have covered David Headley Coleman’s story quite extensively. Not only he worked for ISI, he was also on the payroll of American intelligence. Is that curious or what?

    4- “I refuse to be apologetic about the Mumbai attacks any more.”
    I am saddened by your statement and I hope you will rethink your position. I believe Pakistani people should seek forgiveness from the families of those who lost loved ones in Mumbai. We should let the people of Mumbai know that we are just as much a victim. We should let them know that we don’t condone these acts of violence.

    One can apologize for acts done in the name of one’s nation, or in this case one’s religion, by their governments, or by their citizens, without assuming direct and absolute responsibility; just as many anti-war Americans have gone to Iraq and Afghanistan and apologized to the people for the war waged upon them by the U.S. government. I think here of the group September 11th Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow who have actively protested the war in Afghanistan and have even traveled there to apologize directly to the people of Afghanistan. It takes a big heart and courage to take such a position. Pakistanis should muster up the courage and do the same.

    And, Quatrina please let the rulers in GHQ know that they can’t indulge in adventurism like LeT anymore. We should let ISI and MI know that we will not pay their salary if they do not immediately cease all relations with all terrorist outfits.

    Respect and peace!Recommend

  • imran
    Jul 18, 2010 - 11:09AM

    @Mr. Chada & Ibrahin: i think the writer is wright in saying we(pakistani) should not be apologetic abt the mumbai, we should be sympathetic though….pak india relation should not only be viewed through the prism of mumbai,ISI or Pak army…..the history is vry bitter fm both side….has india ever apologies abt 1971….how many pakistani lost their lives then, do u hv a number…..its only india past behavior that it can aggressively interfere in neighbor internal matter….that has made or given birth to this terrorism….and now India is crying before the world….quote fm ZA Bhutto speech to UN when they declare east pak as BD…(that another debate)….and india active support to the mughti bahini…he said “you hv made legal what has been illegal so far”…..60 odd yrs india has failed miserably and never honor its pledges on kashmir….if i say pak is ready to and is acting against terrorist as they r not in any one control…is india ready to work simultaneously on resolving kashmir…. or they will come up with another lame excuse to backtrack on kashmir….2004 india was saying violence in kashmir has to stop before any dialogue on kashmir….2004 to 2010 virtually no major violence….still they failed to engage APHC to resolve kashmir…if they were not talking to pak bcos of mumbai why hv they not talked to APHC…its really shows india is not ready to resolve all issues….only want to resolve issue that is hurting it….100 chohe kha ke billi nikli hajj par….if indians think they r better than us no point talking to them…unless they realize they r as good or bad as the other it would not work….and i purposefully hv not included indian involvement in baluchistan and FATA… bcos indians want to live in past…it either past or nothing for them…they should not complain to pak when we say kashmir or nothing…..Recommend

  • Harsh
    Jul 18, 2010 - 11:32AM

    “Just how many Pakistanis have to die before the world sits up and sees Pakistan as the worst victim of global terrorism? Is there a magic number — 20,000, nay 50,000?”

    Pakistan is a victim NOT of global terror but the terror infrastructure it created on it’s own. It’s classic case of the dog(terror) is biting the hand( pakistan) which fed it for so long.

    Pakistan cannot play terror victim card. It’s victim of it’s own strategy which it tried to use to bleed India with 1000 cuts.Recommend

  • Jul 18, 2010 - 11:43AM

    quatrina:

    nary a word about hafiz saeed, his inflammatory speeches and his claims of innocence based on his saying the indians did not provide tell-tale evidence therefore he is still free

    or

    the india centric policies of the military and intelligence agenciesRecommend

  • Jul 18, 2010 - 12:15PM

    Qatrina madam;
    It is simply a inhumane and insensitive remark “The Mumbai card has worn thin and no longer elicits sympathy”. What we can expect from a society which happily tolerates murder of its citizens by the terrorist group which are created by its own army and intelligence. We are fighting for the families of those 170 people whose life was ruined by the terrorists which came from pakistan.
    “I refuse to be apologetic about the Mumbai attacks any more.”
    Keep your apologies for those who are getting killed everyday in pakistan and will continue to die if civil society of pakistan will continue to tolerate terrorist groups in their territory.Please do some introspection why Pakistanis are look upon with suspicion througout the world.Accept the reality so that future generations of pakistan live happily.Recommend

  • Parvez
    Jul 18, 2010 - 12:31PM

    Malick, I understand your need for peaceful tomorrow but your analysis is flawed when you mix positions of private group and state policies. Quatrina is knowledgeable and I trust her judgment. You blame Karachi killings on ISI. Why do you hide from truth, it is political-supported mafia. It has nothing to do with terror coming from Afghanistan. So long there is war there, there no peace for Pakistan. You blame army but it was really Musharaf who got you in current mess. Do you have the courage to pull out of WOT? In current situation India is marginal player, trying to be important as B team for America.Recommend

  • Parvez
    Jul 18, 2010 - 12:39PM

    Harsh, 1000 thanks for the sympathy and it will be remembered.
    Temporal, Hafiz Saeed is private citizen and he is free to express his views. Of course you never heard of freedom of speech in Bharat. Is it only reserved for Brahmin class? Recommend

  • Jul 18, 2010 - 1:46PM

    pervez:

    Temporal, Hafiz Saeed is private citizen and he is free to express his
    views.

    i’d buy your flawed argument if we had extended this so called free expression to every one every where Recommend

  • imran
    Jul 18, 2010 - 2:20PM

    @temporal: that’s the point u may not like someone speech….but u cannt brand him terrorist only for war mongering…their r many ppl in india who also excel in hate speeches….as far as saeed masterminding the whole mumbai incident it has to be proven first….if kasab or hedley say that nawaz sharif was involved it will remain an accusation…and every accused is innocent until proven other wise……

    @harsh & stefen: if u thinking that terrorism in subcontinent is or was only pak policy then u r gravelly mistaken….look at india past and u will realize why india is also reaping what it sowed…Recommend

  • Latif Chaudhry
    Jul 18, 2010 - 2:29PM

    Ibrahim Sajid Malick,
    What a brilliant analysis. You have nailed it my friend. Anyone knowledgeable knows that Foreign Minister was on a short leash. He had no room to manoeuvre because of army.Recommend

  • AA
    Jul 18, 2010 - 5:05PM

    The article seems to give the impression as if David Headley’s a just another cock and bull story. But Headley, in a plea bargain, had pleaded guilty to 12 counts of charges, 9 of which relate to Bombay attacks, in return for an assurance that he will not be extradited to India, Pakistan or Denmark and that the prosecution will not seek the death penalty for him. Incidentally, Headley’s story was reported in detail by The New York Times on 22 November 2009. (I know NYT is not considered a reliable paper by many Pakistanis, being part of the axis of evil, but we will have to do with it in absence of any reports by our ranked investigative journalist/ editors)

    I guess the Bombay card will not wear thin for India so soon, just as 9/11 card hasn’t worn thin for the US even after 9 years.Recommend

  • Yasmeen
    Jul 18, 2010 - 10:28PM

    Ibrahim Sb is right 1000%. We should act responsibliity for the nefarious design of our agencies. We sound like clowns when we complain that world is not serious. We created this monster and we must kill it.Recommend

  • Parvez
    Jul 18, 2010 - 11:01PM

    Yasmeen, what do you know about agencies. Please share. Who is we? Recommend

  • Haider
    Jul 19, 2010 - 1:09AM

    What has happened to journalism in our country. I had hoped that The Express Tribune will bring introduce fresh ideas but alas – it is the same old, same old.

    This unfortunate statement “I refuse to be apologetic about the Mumbai attacks any more,” should be recorded in the books of journalism as an example of what happens when a journalist wants to become a ‘story.’ I know one can argue that it is an opinion article- but there are some opinions that better not expressed.Recommend

  • Yasmeen
    Jul 19, 2010 - 4:26AM

    Pervez,

    “We” means Pakistanis. I know a lot about agencies, how they work and what crimes they have committed against people of Pakistan. How can you forget that Afia Siddiqui herself has said that she was kidnapped by ISI. How can you forget Zarina Marri?

    It is a common knowledge that she was held in military torture cells and forced into sexual slavery

    Ms. Zarina Marri, a 23-year-old schoolteacher from Balochistan province, was arrested in late 2005, and has been held incommunicado in an army torture cell at Karachi. She has been repeatedly raped by the military officers and is being used as a sex slave, to induce arrested nationalist activists to sign state-concocted confessions.

    One man, who was arrested by ISI and kept in military torture cell almost for nine months, narrated the story of this young woman to Reporters Without Borders (Reporters Sans Frontières, RSF); nowpublic.com; the International Red Cross; and at Woolwich Court in London. The current whereabouts of the young woman are not known. women who are fighting for the greater autonomy of Balochistan are being arrested by the state agencies and being forced into sex slavery in their custody.

    Munir Mengal, the managing director of a Balochi-language television channel, was arrested on April 4, 2006 from Karachi International airport by ISI and transferred to a military torture cell in Karachi for nine months. He narrated the story of the forced sex slavery of the young teacher Zarina Marri whom he encountered in a military cell. He witnessed many human rights violations in this military prison. Mengal says that, “a young Balochi woman, Ms. Zarina Marri, was used as a sexual slave by the officers. They even once threw her naked into my cell. I did not know what had happened to this mother of a family who was arrested by the army in our province.”

    Another Balochi nationalist who was arrested by the military intelligence agency twice and kept in military cells in different cities, has confirmed that there were young Balochi females seen at those two torture cells, naked and in distress. The prominent Balochi nationalist leaders say that they know fact that young Balochi women are being arrested, either during or after protest demonstrations on the disappearances and are missing.

    ISI’s atrocities people of Pakistan is unfathomable and people who defend this criminal activity are actually doing great dis-service to our country.Recommend

  • Jul 19, 2010 - 4:39AM

    In my own mind I had come to see The Express Tribune as Dawn’s little brother or sister. This article has made me sit up and review my assessment.

    Ms Hosain has written a realistic article which seems to have shaken the airy fairy “liberals”. The hypocritical protests that are being made ignore the reality that pre-9/11 Pakistan was peaceful and there was no such thing as “Pakistani Taliban”. The monstrous TTP is the creation of the USA’s agencies and it is heavily financed and trained by the Indians, who appear to have received assistance from Israeli experts in urban terrorism. The hell that is Pakistan today is the third such hell after Iraq and Afghanistan that the USA imperialism has created, driven by its insatiable hunger for power and natural resources, and its insane desire to weaken the Muslims militarily.

    While the Indian political leadership loudly accuses Pakistan and the ISI of all kinds of security failures in India, our own timid political leaders can do no more than timidly stutter about “foreign intervention” in Pakistan. Following General Ahmed Shuja Pasha’s recent briefing to the Parliamentary Committee on National Security, our politicians ought to summon up courage to speak up at international forums and reveal the dirty deeds of the USA and India. We should also not forget the Hindu terrorism that has taken root in India (remember Samjhota Express?).

    Apart from the widespread acts of terrorism in Pakistan, India is also engaged in state terrorism in Kashmir where it has stationed an army of 700,000. In such circumstances, any negotiations with India would bring disgrace and dishonour to Pakistan. We have a right to demand that all terrorist activity against Pakistan is halted before we will talk. To his credit, the Foreign Minister Mr Qureshi has made some sensible statements following the collapse of his talks with his opposite number, Mr Krishna.Recommend

  • Seema
    Jul 19, 2010 - 9:54AM

    “Clearly forced to the talks by foreign powers that have an interest in seeing the two South Asian rivals at some degree of cordial ties”

    Really, are you referring to the U.S. who started blaming the ISI and Pakistan for Mumbai within hours of the incident.

    Though you make some valid points about Pakistan’s current predicament, you ignore the fact that India showed tremendous restraint after Mumbai, despite the constant beating of the war drum by the Indian media and opposition leaders.Recommend

  • Seema
    Jul 19, 2010 - 10:34AM

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/What-does-America-have-to-hide/Article1-521432.aspx
    See this article which alleges that Headley was an american agent.Recommend

  • Jul 19, 2010 - 12:22PM

    “The Mumbai card has worn thin and no longer elicits sympathy” perhaps we need to weigh our words more carefully, whilst being sensitive to this overtly charged tension between our 2 countries?

    As writers/journalists/free thinkers- you or India cannot be publicly decrying and abusing each other as it only leads to more wrongs.

    Your stmnt cut deep, very deep as I lost some near and dear ones in this massacre. The need is to correct the wrongs- find the right path- albeit difficult given the 2 nations history- but not impossible. Is there a will? When one doesnt show the will the other nation needs to. Thats the test of both our nations. But the sad part is the will is too weak and the Ego is too large- on both sides.

    Parallely we as people from these 2 nations-other than bad mouthing and debating and fanning the same hatred like myopic frogs in the well do not make much of an effort in engaging or influencing each other. Cmon guys we are ‘the educated have’s’ – we need to be more tolerant, more sensitive, less ra-ra

    Polity and common mans agenda are 2 very different things. If you mix them you dont get a heady cocktail you get a toxic wash that is bound to make us feel frustrated – does anger and frustration and hatred lead to peace? Only patience, tolerance, no ego, understanding ca be the game changers. Of course a lot of play of the bad kind will happen ( case in point last week foreign ministers mtg n thereaftr the presscon) – Peace does not come to those who dont make an attempt- attempts have to be made and remade and remade till peace and equanimity is restored. Who knows it may take another 60 yrs for this to happen- but there will come a time where we will stop drawing blood from each other and start listening to each other.

    We the people must know that it is only us people who must feel deeply the need for neighbourly ties, and only then can we the people influence our elected governments to enact our requirement. And they will! They must!Recommend

  • SKChadha
    Jul 19, 2010 - 2:52PM

    @ Imran
    Mr. Imran, refer my blog, India doesn’t need crocodile tears any more from Pakistan, whether they are in the shape of apology or sympathy. You can keep both for the victims of terror in your own country. What India desire is to keep your international and bilateral commitment and ensure investigation on its soil and book the culprits. In the process it is Pakistan to see what ever law, democratic, dictatorial or religious, it applies for such bookings? Pakistan’s actions should convince the world community that justice in investigation and prosecution has been done.
    Imran Sahib, 1971 was Pakistan’s own creation when it failed to hear the just and democratic demands of its own Eastern part. What kind of apology you want from India? Did India massacre your fellow citizens in Bangladesh or your own Army? Despite Kashmir’s accession to India and UN resolution dated 13.08.1948, in your opinion Pakistan has all rights to illegally occupy the Kashmir territory and call it ‘Azad Kashmir’. In your opinion, Pakistan also has rights to overtly and covertly make infiltration, incite violence, indulge in full fledged war in the name of religion in J&K? Please enlighten us what right Pakistan had to infiltrate in Kargil despite Simla Agreement? Forget about Bangladesh Imran Sahib and note my suggestion to keep at least entire present territory of Pakistan together as also free it from sectarian violence. As regards to 1971, I would also suggest you to please read Hamid Mir’s editorial analysis in Dawn as to “who broke Pakistan” at http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_detail.asp?id=169180 . Please also read the excerpts of General Yahya Khan’s speech at about 5.45 pm declaring war and attacking India in December, 1971 and come forward with facts to substantiate your accusation against India.
    Now I come to Kashmir –
    To my understanding India’s only concern is the repossession of territory known as ‘Azad Kashmir’ or PHK by peaceful means. This territory belongs to India under valid documents of accession. To my opinion somewhere in our dealings with Pakistan; India had compromised its territorial integrity as regards to PHK in appeasement of a section of society and it hurts me. Sooner Pakistan vacates it, it is better for secular credentials of Kashmir and for fulfillment of aspirations of Kashmiri. Pakistan’s withdraw of its occupational forces and its tribal militants are the only course for betterment of Kashmir. The Kashmir since time immemorial is known for its beauty, communal harmony and varied ethnicity which is way different from NWFP and FATA.
    I don‘t understand that by which standards APHC are representatives of silent Kashmiri voice? The secessionist elements in J&K let first prove their worth in State elections and serve their own people? They are afraid of it as they do not have following in entire J&K. Their credentials are doubtful even in Valley area. Their bread and butter is dependent only harping on religious bigotry or funding from Pakistan. Your Mukti Bahini e.g. LeT, JuD, state, non-state, in-state, out-state actors. These separatist voices are spreading paranoia, suspicion, mistrust and religious bigotry. They are not the true representatives of the people of the State and represent only handful of stone pelting hooligans on streets.
    While fueling the fire on faith or plebiscite the looser of democratic process forget that the withdrawal from PHK in all forms was pre-condition for any plebiscite in Kashmir and not its division as now envisaged by Pakistan.
    Imran Sahib, people hide behind the religion. They also tarnish the image of religion by terror in other country. They also support the leaders who shout Hurriayat at the pitch of their voice (APHC) without presenting their credentials even in local elections. In your eyes this is correct and for Mukti Bahini of Bangladesh you need India’s apology. The assessment on your part requires through correct spectacles. You have some inferiority complex while writing “if Indians think they r better than us no point talking to them”. Forget about Indian’s thinking, go around the world and make your own assessment about talking to India. Yes for us Pakistan is a better society and hence we want to talk and have relations with Pakistan. Bro …….. we may have differences but think and B +ve not by blood but by brain.Recommend

  • imran
    Jul 19, 2010 - 4:46PM

    @chada: where in the UN resolution it is stated that kashmir is part of india….dont fool ur self…and thats exactly my point what about the Pak desire to keep your international and bilateral commitment on kashmir…..on 1971 no doubt its was pak own creation but what india did was an aggresion….and r u saying Pak should support maoist,naxals,dalit ur hindu brothers as they r being persecuted by india?…..and u should not cry when Pak is doing the same to u in kashmir…the reality is much too bitter and complicated than ur simplistic thoughts…..abt APHC hold a refrendum and u will see……and the reason behind their not taking part in local election is bcos they r held under indian constitution…. we may have differences but think and B +ve not by blood but by brain…and yet u dont realize the diff and dont use ur brain….pity on u…and about the world assessment we will reply to them when we talk to them…india has to realize that they r as bad or good as we r……otherwise no point talking to them……Recommend

  • Waheed
    Jul 19, 2010 - 6:19PM

    Sakib Ahmad

    Your comment above says “The hypocritical protests that are being made ignore the reality that pre-9/11 Pakistan was peaceful and there was no such thing as “Pakistani Taliban”.

    Which Pakistan do you live in? Where were you in 80s? Pakistan has not been a peaceful country ever since military started to take control of state affairs.

    Wake up and smell ‘cafe payala’ tea, Sir!Recommend

  • SKChadha
    Jul 19, 2010 - 7:57PM

    Imran Sahib – Aap Naraz Mat Hoiye. My humble submissions are as under:
    About Kashmir –
    UN is not a body to declare territorial boundaries of any country. Kashmir is part of India by document of its accession signed between Govt. of India and Raja Hari Singh which was irreversible and binding on parties. It is India, which approached UN for vacation of PHK territory by peaceful negotiation and not by military conflict. The excerpt of UN resolution to which Pakistan is an agreeing party is as under:
    1. UN Resolution (Document No. S/1100, Para 75, dated 9th November, 1948) PART I (Cease-fire Order) para B states: “The High Commands of Indian and Pakistan forces agreed to refrain from taking any measures that might augment the military potential of the forces under their control in the State of Jammu and Kashmir. (For the purpose of these proposals “forces under their control shall be considered to include all forces, organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities on their respective sides).” Here reference to “organized and unorganized, fighting or participating in hostilities” clearly denotes the tribesmen from Pakistan’s side.
    2. Please also refer Part II (Truce Agreement) para A (2) & (3): “(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting. (3) Pending a final solution the territory evacuated by the Pakistan troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the Commission”.
    Except aforesaid resolution, I could not lay hand on any other international or bilateral commitments. If you have one please provide me a copy of it. There are innumerable speeches by individuals and referring to them is a Pakistani ploy to confuse, not to Indians but to its own citizenry. I am not going into ancient history of Kashmir to establish its secular identity.
    Forget about nexus or support of maoist, naxals, dalits etc. by saying “and u should not cry when Pak is doing the same to u in Kashmir” at least you admit that Pakistan is doing hanky panky in Kashmir. Is it not? Please don’t be ashamed, you are not the only one to admit it, even Gen. Musharraf had admitted this fact in Press his conference in India. Please see at link – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1CXrHxC8MY. Yes I admit that realities are bitter.
    About 1971 war –
    For all practical purposes, the war started by Pakistani President General Yahya Yahya Khan’s declaration of war against India at 1630 hours on 3rd December 1971. Please collect the excerpts of speech from Pakistan Radio, if they provide you? Within 30 minutes of this speech Pakistani fighter bombers struck five Indian airfields – Srinagar, Avantipur, Pathankot, Amritsar and Faridkot. These air strikes were followed by a massive attack on the strategic Chhamb sector in the north.
    According to my Pakistani brothers India is holding Kashmir against the wishes of Kashmiri, if that be so, don’t you feel that in case India would have any nefarious designs, it could very well hold the territory now known as Bangladesh against the wishes of its residents? If you still feel that Bangladesh is India’s creation, then why Pakistan has admitted its sovereignty? Once again I admit your quoting that realities are bitter, that is why it is becoming difficult for you to swallow them.
    About APHC –
    You have stated that “and the reason behind their not taking part in local election is bcos they r held under indian constitution” ….. The same guys travel through out the world on Indian Passports, isn’t it? Can’t they represent the Kashmiri voice better as elected representatives? At least they can solve the problems relating to the subjects which are on J&Ks State List. Mind it, J&K is still having better conditions as compared to other Indian States. How they are helping common citizens of J&K by keeping handful of hooligans on the streets of the State. Imran Sahib, the voice of silent majority is basic strength of any democracy. In India, we fight, moan, groan and shout on various issues, the parties come and go as per the wishes of people, but the democracy remains and we are proud of it. Let any leader of APHC explain what rights Kashmiri do not have in their State which are available to any other Indian citizen. Imran Sahib, please come out of religious bigotry. It had so far not helped Pakistan in any way, except making divisions and sectarianism in the beautiful religion known as Islam.
    Please accept my apologies and at least talk to me? Recommend

  • Harsh
    Jul 19, 2010 - 8:23PM

    Pakistan had occupied 35% of j&k in ’48, it should be satisfied with it. Pakistan should accept LoC as international border and declare victory. That’s in the best interest of region. India too would accept such an arrangement.Recommend

  • Harsh
    Jul 19, 2010 - 8:36PM

    Could pakistanis tell why they gifted a part of kashmir they had occupied, to China? China occupies 20% of kashmir. Why no kashmir dispute with their so called ‘best friend’? Recommend

  • Jul 20, 2010 - 3:27AM

    @Waheed
    As the context of my comments shows, I am talking about the conditions immediately before and after the atrocity carried out on 11 September 2001. You are merely distorting the issues by introducing the events of nineteen eighties, which are irrelevant to this discussion. Do they serve ‘bhang’ or ‘afeem’ in the ‘cafe payala’ cups?

    Some Indians are hell-bent on distorting history. What happened to the legal documents signed by the Nizam of Hyderabad and the Nawab of Junagadh? They were ripped up by Indian forces, of course!

    Jawaharlal Nehru gave a solemn pledge to the United Nations to hold a plebiscite in Kashmir. Well, when is that promise going to be honoured? There are numerous UN resolutions referring to Kashmir as disputed territory and telling India how to solve the Kashmir issue justly. India is thumbing its nose at all those resolutions and telling all and sundry that Kashmir is an “internal issue”! Presumably, one that requires 700,000 troops to suppress and oppress Kashmiris in the most heinous ways imaginable.

    The simple fact is that the Maharaja of Kashmir and the Nawab of Junagadh violated the principles underlying the division of the British colony between Pakistan and Bharat. The duplicitous Indians dealt with the Nawab by standing on high moral ground and insisting that a Muslim ruler of mainly Hindu subjects had no right to accede to Pakistan. Fine. When Pakistan made the same point about Kashmir, India resorted to duplicity and intrigue, with Mounbatten acting as a willing accomplice. Had the Pakistan army not intervened, India would have gobbled up the whole of Kashmir. In the event it gave a solemn pledge to hold a plebiscite so the Kashmiris could decide if they wished to accede to Pakistan or Bharat. That plebiscite has yet to take place!

    As for the unfortunate Nizam of Hyderabad, he only wanted to be the ruler of an independent country, which was his right under the the agreement which gave freedom to the British colonies in South Asia. India moved in its troops and the legal document signed by the Nizam was ripped up.

    Might is right – that, in a nutshell, has been India’s policy all along. Recommend

  • Malik Rashid
    Jul 20, 2010 - 3:41AM

    Sanity that got lost at the time of partition was never found. Somebody defending Hafiz Saeed can not be taken seriously. Analysis by Ibrahim and Yasmeen’s post about Zarina Marri made my visit worthwhile. Thanks.Recommend

  • imran
    Jul 20, 2010 - 11:42AM

    @chada: dont pick and choose…..read the full resolution above….and u come to know that finally a plsbiscite has to take place…to decide the question of accession of J&K……dont fool ur self….and i hope u dont go on RSS handouts…..and also read Sakhib Ahmed reply to @waheed and u will know abt the aggression that i was talking about…..and u hv to realize that kashmir is not a part of india…and then u will come to realize that no matter how much money u pump into kashmir…they will still be protesting for their rite for freedom……and sorry to disapoint u i m merely replying to u….for talk to happen dear Chada u hv to accept there is a problem b/w us which concern us as well….its not only abt indian concerns…..Recommend

  • SKChadha
    Jul 20, 2010 - 9:18PM

    Mr Imran,
    I think from the present we are moving into past and it will not lead us anywhere?

    What I quoted from the resolution is the only relevant provisions to save the space. If I am fooling myself, at least you can save me by enlightening me. Forget about my or GOI’s admission that Kashmir is not its part, at least realize that GOP consider it as ‘Azad’ and hence have no right on it except as an aggressor. As regards to pumping money in Kashmir, I assure you that India will not be bankrupt in the process before any other side. Imran Sahib, problems are part of life and we all should learn to live with them or solve them.

    I have read Sakhib Ahmed’s comments and I would like to recollect the history, please correct me wherever I am wrong? Of course, this recollection is not from Zia-ul-Haq’s curriculum. Moreover, at the time of partition India and Pakistan just came into existence as nations and I consider both of them as innocent. Therefore, for genesis of our existence as separate nations, I would rather like to use the name of political parties i.e. Congress (INC) or Muslim League in place of nations.

    During partition there were 562 princely states in the sub-continent which were not part of British India. The British Crown abandoned them and given them a choice to accede to either India or Pakistan or remain outside them. It is a fact that these states were given choice but due to “geographic compulsions” of such States, Mountbatten took the position that only states that shared a common border with Pakistan should only accede to Pakistan otherwise it would lead in chaos and both Pakistan and India would look like polka dots. To certain extent Congress and Muslim League were also of the similar view. Nobody at that time predicted huge and uncontrollable mass migration. The main reason of present hostility is migration, looting and personal scars inflicted by both communities on each other. Mountbatten did not have power to impose his abovementioned point of view on the states. Political parties looking into the bloodshed, as it usually happens, distanced themselves from this tacit understanding and placed entire blame on Mountbatten.

    Nizam of Hyderabad wished to remain independent or to accede to Pakistan. However, this triggered largest armed rebellion of agriculturists at that time. As Hyderabad was landlocked area, Congress put economic blockade. The Congress led government at centre also used military force (Operation Polo) against the landlocked princely state of Hyderabad which was successful and on 17.09.1948 the Nizam signed an Instrument of Accession to the Union of India. Imran Sahib, at that time what was important was approval of Accession from Princely States for legality of the territory between warring political parties. India being secular, Congress tried its best to woe Muslim population so that they stick to India and India should have larger territory. On the other hand Muslim League after partition was interested in having all Muslim leaders on its side and who so ever opposed it, had become religious traitor for Muslim League and example is Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad. For Indians he is hero and I don’t know how you rank him. The Muslim leaders loyal to Congress were having their interests in India and did not want to migrate to Pakistan. These leaders also played major role in the whole process to unite the territory of India. Recommend

  • Anoop
    Jul 20, 2010 - 10:20PM

    Well, the author misses one point. Indians dont come to Karachi and shoot people.

    Your patience is running out? How about ours? We have been facing acts of Terror from Pakistani soil for more than 2 decades!

    I dont care about if a Pakistani kills loads of other Pakistanis. I only care when a Pakistani kills an Indian. I do condemn Pakistanis killing other Pakistanis but I wont lose my sleep over it. But, not Mumbai.

    I have the power to vote. If this govt fails to persuade Pakistan to bring perpetrators of Mumbai to Justice then it will lose my and many other’s votes. Simple as that.Recommend

  • SKChadha
    Jul 21, 2010 - 6:45AM

    Good take AnoopRecommend

  • Rani
    Jul 22, 2010 - 7:30PM

    @Anoop and Chadha, though I disagree with this author, India is not consistent on the issue of terrorism. Two decades ago all the terrorism dollars that targeted India, both in Kashmir and Punjab came from the U.S. That hasn’t stopped India from signing all kinds of new agreements with the U.S. and India hasn’t flinched once as it has moved closed to the U.S. economically as well as militarily. If they can forget this sordid history for the sake of their economic interest, they can also forget for the sake of the billion south asians in the region who need peace now.Recommend

  • Jul 23, 2010 - 12:17AM

    @Rani.

    Stupendous suggestion, coming from an Indian. Hats off to you, lady.

    The USA government is universally hated because it depends on indiscriminate use of its immense power. India is heading the same way. It can easily win friends, and genuine respect, by rejecting the immorality of the Americans.

    Pakistanis are highly critical of their dysfunctional government and the excesses of their army and secret agencies. A magnanimous gesture from India would go a long way towards establishing clean government and a military answerable to that government. Recommend

  • SKChadha
    Jul 23, 2010 - 2:03AM

    @ Rani – At that time for talks and solving the issues Pakistan had not stated that “Its territory will not be allowed to be used for terrorism against India” and we were not as close as we were before Kargil adventure or 26/11. We had trust deficit when Kargil happened. Now the situation is of NO TRUST at all. The reason is terrorism being covert state policy of Pakistan.
    As to US India relationship, Please realize India is prepared to do business with Pakistan by granting Pakistan Most Favored Nation (MFN) status though India fought wars with it. It is Pakistan which is not reciprocating. What ever terror Dollars you are talking, were canalized, whether in India or in Afghanistan, were only through Pakistan establishments. Rani, in International Trade, we do not have permanent friends or foes. We only do business if it benefits us, immediately or in long run. Mind it peace will remain illusive to region if nations continue to shelter, finance, protect terrorists, overtly or covertly, calling them non-state actors. Recommend

  • Jul 23, 2010 - 9:11AM

    @Rani, @Sakib Ahmad, @SKChadha – such healthy debates is good, makes me feel encouraged. Finger pointing and mud slinging gets us nowhere. Just one submission- in Politics nobody is a friend of nobody -just like USA maybe using its powers to curry favour – and India or Pakistan maybe currying those favours – it is for the same reasons (in the interest of our safe future) we nations must wield equal power (sensibly) so that we come to the table we can negotiate better! Who has given the right to USA to play big brother? Its economic clout that has got usa whr it is. When will we learn that it is in the interest of the western nations to keep India and Pak at war mistrusting each other- we are falling rey to them and they succeed every time! Politicians in both our country s are selling us out to fill their coffers. Its very important that both us people from both our countries talk to each other- influence each other- so that we can have a better governance! Recommend

  • Anoop
    Jul 23, 2010 - 12:20PM

    @Rani,

    US never directly funded any Terrorism against India. It gave Money to Pakistan and ignored the Terror bred by it against India. Many Western countries did the same. Understandable. No country can think beyond its borders.

    Lot of Countries have border rows. Almost every alternate country does. But, no one indulges in Terrorism. Even after massive blow-back from the Mujahideens, Pakistan is unwilling to accept that anti-India militants are harmful to it. This is pure lunacy on part of Pakistan.

    Pakistan is suffering blow back, but why should we be worried about it? We would be ,if we weren’t suffering Terrorism from the very land of Pakistan! First, we should care about Indian lives,naturally,being Indian citizens, then Pakistani lives or any other Country’s miseries. As long as our policies are not hurting any other country’s lives there is nothing wrong with that being self-obsessed.

    I want India and Pakistan to live peacefully. But, if that means Terrorist have their way then its not peace at all. Its surrender. Knowing Terrorist mentality they will only break their promises and strike back. Pakistan must know this well. Remember, Fazlullah, Sufi Mohammed,etc?Recommend

  • Fatimah
    Jul 30, 2010 - 6:10PM

    so much is written on this blog by so many people including quatrain hussain. but i think ibrahim sajid malick said it best. i have been reading his blogs here and there and i truly getting a sense that he is among very few pakistani writers who are wholehearted supporters of democracy, secularism and peace.Recommend

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