We don’t support an artificial shortage of accountants: ICAP President
The prestigious institution vows to go an extra mile to improve the output of professionals but it rebuffs the widespread feeling in market that the institution supports artificial shortage of accountants.
“It’s a misconception that ICAP wants to create an artificial shortage of accountants in the market,” Masood said. ICAP is not only updating its syllabus but is also improving its examination process to increase the number of students passing out every year. But Masood added that the institute would not compromise on its standards.
Masood said that ICAP had updated its syllabus and examination system and as a result the passing-out rate had increased over the past few years. He said students were also working harder.
AF Ferguson and Company Partner SM Shabbar Zaidi also said that ICAP never fails its students deliberately to create artificial shortage of accountants. “It’s a wrong perception that ICAP creates artificial shortage of accountants in market,” said Zaidi.
“There are other reasons for the low passing-out rate, one of which is the declining education standard in the country,” he said.
Replying to a question on why ICAP has cut down exemptions to ACCA students, Masood said this was because of changes in the syllabus and not to create problems for students coming from other fields or with different qualifications. “Whatever ICAP did in recent examination reforms was purely on merit and not to target any other qualification,” he said.
An ACCA member who is currently working with a leading accountancy firm in Pakistan said that it is widely believed that top firms prefer ICAP students over ACCA students. “It is a common observation that ACCA in last few years has gained acceptance in Pakistan which obviously pinched ICAP,” he said, “Also, in the last few months after the ICAP slashed exemptions of ACCA students, the recruitment in top firms in Pakistan has declined.”
An ACCA student said that ICAP students can only join their articles (compulsory training) when they complete their Module D, on the other hand ACCA students can start their training any time during their studies. “I like this flexibility as I want to complete my qualification on a fast-track. Many students prefer ACCA because it takes less time to complete and is flexible compared to ICA,P” he explained.
ICAP believes that ACCA is a commercial body so it is more open, flexible and easy going and that the two cannot be compared. But market observers say global accountancy qualifications in last few years have made strong inroads into Pakistan – a challenge to ICAP which recently celebrated its golden jubilee.
A CA student who is just one paper away from qualification believes that the examination system of ICAP is fair and credible but very strict.
A former ICAP examiner who wished to remain unnamed agreed, “There are numerous checks on ICAP examiners which actually helps maintain quality.” It is also a misconception, he said that more number of accountants will help in documenting the economy.
Zaidi also believes that documenting the economy is not linked with the number of accountants.
Speaking on the past trends in accountancy education, the ICAP president said that historically accounting education was never the top priority of brightest students. Thanks to awareness, today, the knowledge of accountancy in students has increased phenomenally.
The acceptance of Pakistani accountants has improved over the years in international markets. A significant development is the fact that the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales (ICAEW) now recognises ICAP, which was not the case a few years ago.
Published in The Express Tribune, September 14th, 2011.
COMMENTS (42)
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Why to create so much fuss about a useless topic-ICAP Vs ACCA? Yes, ICAP examinations are tedious but certainly not cruel It is matter of the "survival of the fittest" to fit in ICAP family. Those dudes shouting hard at ICAP must be reminded that here mantra for success doesn't lie in being efficient hard-worker but it takes a learning approach that requires core conceptual understanding and demonstration of knowledge in the most precise manner. No matter how much effort you put in but if you lack effectiveness in your studies, forget about ICAP.
As a student I can say it without any hesitation that I passed each and every paper I could say before submitting my answer script to invigilator that I deserve to pass, problem is not in examination system atleast for me, its quality which limits the number of passed candidate and we should understand it but the problem is what to prepare? from where to prepare?, how much to prepare? and what NOT TO PREPARE? we waste our time and energy in irrelevant areas as opposed to ACCA and ICAEW students who can surely say that they are following their course outline for a particular exam and one thing more there is lack of paper specific guidance for us what works best in law does not help out in Audit (just an example) we are willing to meet your Standard ICAP are trying our best but lacking guodance thats limiting the number of qualifying candidates
why compare ICAP with ACCA? ACCA should be compared with ICAEW.. where ACCA can have exemptions up to professional level in ICAEW and ICAEW can have exemptions up to part 2 of ACCA. Also I live in London for several years and can tell ICAEW and ACCA has same royal charter to perform audit and tax service. Further I see here many ACCA and FCCA in top firm as partner. Also CIOT ( chartered institute of Tax advisors in UK ) offers exactly same exemptions to ACCA and ICAEW. Why bother of ICAP any way when ICAEW , which is much more reputable and credible institute accepts ACCA.
who cares, add skill to ur portfolios not rote learning
ACCA vs CA
both have advntages and disadvntgs, glad im part of both kekekekeke...
So funny to read all these frustrations coming out of the people...!!! All I say is... I am also a proud ACCA member... and at the end of the day it is your training and knowledge not ICAP or ACCA... I am working with Australian CA's and CPA without hassel... so stop fighting and get back to work... : ) learn and then make the difference
Well. I can bet ACCA's and ACA's if trained in the same firm / organisation with an unbiased mentor / manager will come out with an exact amount of knowledge and skills. Obviously I am ignoring the personality element when I am making the above statement. ACA's should accept the ground realities and not discriminate. The ground reality is ACCA is a global qualification which allows a level playing field to all. If you work hard you pass,else get chucked out with time. ICAEW has recognised ACCA's potential by introducing the pathway scheme, and many chartered bodies around the world are signing mutual agreements with the ACCA. ACCA equals to Masters in the UK and also in Pakistan by the HEC. ACCA can audit in the UK just like ICAEW.
I don't understand why do we have such time wasting debates in Pakistan, where as in the UK if you ask a British white man or a lady he/she will equally give respect to both the accountancy bodies. I request all ACA's to understand that ACCA qualified members DO work hard as themselves and of course are human beings. ACA's will have to accept this change and accept ACCA's otherwise these old folks will have no chance to survive. This is globalisation and we human beings should accept this and not act like apes. ACCA and ACA both are quality institutes and deserve due respect and I request all the members to STOP this bun fight forever and support and respect each other. A special message to ACA's please don't discriminate else this global body for professional accountants will easily take you over one day my producing quality members who are proving themselves in all sectors. Take care all, respect and cooperation is the word for the future
@John Doe:
1 - Most of the people here simply seem to be supporting their institutes or qualifications. This is quite natural. I appreciate those who have given a balanced opinion on this forum.
2 - Mr Doe, you say "These ‘Professionals’ have never sat an ACCA exam and clearly have no knowledge of what ACCA is." Presumably, you are able make this judgment because you are already a qualified ACCA?? If so, you just prove my point # 1 above; and if not, you are contradicting yourself. :)
Yeh you are attracting more people to abuse ICAP.........
Paying only 6500 stipend and it is hard to find a articles.
These situation along with family pressure to earn some thing and support family
I think you are attracting more people to abuse you
Every one in my firm is abusing ICAP. Specially you the chairman.
This is completely outrageous for President of a professional body such as ICAP to speak in such a manner about a rival. Clearly, indicates the level at which ICAP stands currently. ACCA and ICAEW should respond in kind and reduce if not completely eliminate any exemptions offered to ICAP members or students. We do not seek nor are interested in any part with ICAP's manipulation.
Those who question ACCA's stature are deluded by fictitious norms being presented as facts. These 'Professionals' have never sat an ACCA exam and clearly have no knowledge of what ACCA is. ACCA is professional certification beyond the level of degree as some have proclaimed it to be; it is equivalent to Masters in the UK.
Easy going? Mr. ICAP President?
The main problem for icap student is to select a suitable raet for him. But unfortunately all raets are here for just commercial purpose. it is request to icap president that please change your decision about privatization of studies because it is creating confusions. every teacher is claiming that if you adopt his method you will succeeded but this is not the solution. they just want more and more students to earn high fesses also due to high failure ratio ,more peoples are interested in opening a raet because of its high revenue.. ICAP should start classes at his own building by qualified teachers as ICMAP. ACCA students claiming that ACCA is better than CA,or just like C.A than its also a wrong story, if you are claiming just due to this reason that ACCA is internationally approved degree than this is also not a valid reason because on international level ISRAEL is also a country and we are not accepting him right now and not also in future. ACCA is also just a business, if you are a student of C.A and after this moved to ACCA than you will feel the huge difference........................ Difference between concepts and rtta............ your question ends at the stage from which the question of C.A starts........ So Dont claim to be best.......
This is to Mr. Shahid - you don't have to score by 'crook'
SALAM,
Peoples are pretty much criticizing ICAP for not passing its students.I have to share my personal experience.Buddies I am a student of CA inter MOD D and believe me icap has passed me even in such papers that I was only be able to attempt up 65-70 %.I think Its not the case that Icap deliberately fails students in fact u got to score 50 by hook or by crook.and icap Past paper solutions can contribute pretty much if U got it as runner..........D
@Muhammad Khan: welldone i like uur comment
While calling ACCA commercial, he should know that ICAP is looking for following the same pattern with every change they make in the examination or course pattern. And what is the best thing about ACCA? You can do training even in industry and at whatever stage you want. ICAP is very rigid when it comes to training.
Salaam
My experience is different. Hardwork and consistency always always pay back in ICAP. ICAP owe lot of respect. Reading material and study habits matters alot, being critic does not render you anything. ICAP does not belongs to enemy state. I am proud of being part of this qualification.
Hafiz Muhammad Adnan Rana ICAP Registration # 16635 Owner, Pak Accountants, Management Consultancy Owner, The Student College at Sialkot (StuCo)
The only difference between ICAP and ACCA is the compulsory training period before their final examination.. I suppose , if ACCA also initiates a clause of 18 months " AUDIT FIRM " experience before taking their professional or final exams, ICAP will be pursuing their quality standards with ACCA instead of ICAEW !!
The ICAP President's integrity can be gauged by his audacity to lie in on record.
Firstly, ACCA is not a commercial body it is a not for profit organisation that work for the betterment of people so ICAP's personal beliefs are not relevent,
Secondly please open up your statistics, the 'passing rate' has decreased not increased, even a cursory review of the exams results and number of students appearing in exams would tell him that.
Disappointing!
I believe that the ICAP is the only examination body in our country which is free from any political pressure and free of bias. The complete examination and subsequent result's process is purely fair i believe. It is the impression that is created by the students who do not get pass in their early stage papers. Ask someone who is in finals stage, even ask me how do i feel about being in finals and just this close to become a CA, i just feel proud of ICAP and i will surely get involved in the ICAP processes after qualification. it is the only qualification that people of Pakistan feel proud of it. We are proud of ICAP and we are proud of Pakistan.
ICAP and ACCA has their own standards in their right. It is a natural phenomenon that one supporting something or someone will demonstrate its good qualities only. It is true that both accounting bodies have their pros and cons. ICAP being an elite national body inherit good standards being number 2 in the world ( #1 ICAEW). Therefore they cannot be criticized on their quality of standards. However ACCA is itself an elite professional qualification in it own kind, its over a 100 year old accounting body and in a survey by the Harvard University, USA, ACCA has been declared as the most well structured syllabus in the world. Someone above rightly said above that ACCA provide much more support to students than ICAP, let it be the technical articles to every subject, examiner comments, current issues and some others. While on the other hand ICAP does issue examiner comments but nothing more, this is also a good ploy by ICAP in making a student work for himself. Anyhow both qualifications have their merits and demerits as discussed above by people, BUT the main thing is one should not discredit its own or any others professional qualification as it is against the professional code of conduct taught by ACCA.
Finally on a personal note, I being an ACCA student have passed my core papers and some professional papers in first attempt. I have no experience of ICAP studies, BUT one thing I need to emphasis on, and which disturbs me alot, ICAP members do have discrimination between ACCA and ICAP when it comes to Audit firms, I personally have experienced qualified ICAP ACA members reluctant to keep ACCA students believing that we have no worth in what we are doing. Its just not in one or two places, but everywhere. Simply they just dont want ACCA to enter firms.
No matter how hard ICAP trys to justify, the fact is icap passing rate in pathetic "i would say " it as low as 4 %. This figure is genuine belive me or not.
It is funny how ACCA ppl criticize ICAP for slashing exemptions. In the real world everything is on RECIPROCAL basis. Has anyone ever asked how many exemptions does ACCA give to CA INTER and CA qualified! Have you ever heard that a CA qualified is doing or wants to do ACCA at the same time many ACCA qualified want to do CA thats why so many people are are criticizing ICAP on slashing exemptions! If ICAP is so unfair and so atrocious so why do you need ANY exemptions from ICAP!
P.S. Citation Needed 'ICAP believes that ACCA is a commercial body so it is more open, flexible and easy going and that the two cannot be compared.' although the statement is true but still you dont just write it you qoute it.
I agree what AF Ferguson and Company Partner Mr. SM Shabbar Zaidi said.
“There are other reasons for the low passing-out rate, one of which is the declining education standard in the country,” he said.
ICAP keeps on increasing its standard and maintaining quality output but there is no defined policy to give quality education to its students via learning providers..
ICAP is a cartel; they restrict supply to jack up price.
@INQ Can you please tell me where it has been stated that a qualified CA (with no experience) is far more superior than ACCA affiliate (with no experience)?? It is the audit firm training that polishes the skill set, I would like to pinpoint another point, under ICAP ,ICAEW member can directly become ICAP member, while ACCA members are required to attempt more ICAP papers, now just look from ICAEW side, ICAEW is offering full member ship to ACCA member after 5 years of experience, and required ICAP members to attempt more papers, So what does it state, ICAEW is considering ACCA as equivalent, but ICAP isnt, what a joke.
Another thing this chartered accountancy profession is developed by British and Americans, And still they are the ones who are taking the lead in every aspect risk management, corporate governance, Sustainability, So how can one say that Followers (ICAP) are more talented than people whom are standard setters of modern era?
ACCA is more transparent, after every exam, officials answers are issued, along with examiner commentary about major pitfall, ACCA exams are not child play, it is the support and guidance of ACCA which assist in passing.
ICAP surely struggles to be a transparent body, it shall ease the examination criteria a little and let students pass fairly.
being an icap student and struggling real hard to pass my ca inter it was quite unfair that an acca gets exemption for ca inter which includes subjects like business law and company law never even studied by an acca !
moreover since passing ICAP examinations is not that easy an acca would easily get the exemption and make their way to firms
its one thing i loved about ICAP finally thinking about ur students
ICAP is changing syllabus and examination system drastically. There will be case study after passing all papers which will be the toughest one...wikileaks
When I joined this profession long time ago, I often asked the senior members of ICAP including those closely involved with the institute whether ICAP's exams are qualifying or competitive, the answer has always been "qualifying", however, I liked the answer of one of my mentors who said... even if the exams were competitive you should prepare hard enough so that you are among those who comfortably cross that threshold and qualify. ICAP's examination system is indeed tough but that's precisely the reason why Pakistani Chartered Accountants are so sought-after across the globe. Any chartered accountant who has qualified from ICAP can tell you that this rigorous training and education truly prepares you for the toughest in the accountancy profession, whether in Pakistan or abroad.
On balance, the system is not unfair and I believe, over the years ICAP has become even more transparent than when we sat for our exams more than a decade ago.
@ Vix just b'coz u were not able to pass icap papers does not mean that icap is biased...icap haz some standards u've got to meet them to pass...eventhough i gav 4 attempts of one of the paper in module B i wud still say that icap didnt fail me on purpose...it waz my own fault! the proof was that i cleared a paper of same nature of module D in first attempt!
U've to change urself...icap wont change for you!
plus u cannot compare acca wid ca of icap...acca is like a bachelors degree and ca is like a masters degree!
No doubt acca haz quality but if u really wanna compare an international qualification comapre it with ICAEW, which i say iz better than icap's given their level of experience.
ICAP policies are not that clear. ICAP usually dont follow its own examination grids whereas ACCA is very strict in this matter. Also, the level of questions asked by examiner is usually not clear. At times they ask questions of such a high level that an ordinary student cannot answer them until and unless he has years of practical experience. ICAP should consider that he is questioning a student and not a qualified experienced person
ICAP policies are discriminatory and are just to protect their students and members from other international body members and associates.
@ vix, how exactly is this article ridiculous?
View point of almost all people concenred has been added while filing it. President of ICAP, Senior Partner of largest practice in Pakistan, an ACCA student, a former ICAP examiner ...
You have the right to disagree with, what each and everyone has said, but this article is pretty balanced
This is a ridiculous article in every sense. I am ACCA and before that I started CA where I was unable to pass despite several attempts. However, when started ACCA, things went on smoothly as the reward of hard work was duly given. I managed to pass all the ACCA exams including the core in the first go. ICAP does not want students to pass. This is just not a misconception, infact a truth!!! Now that ICAP has cancelled the exemptions to the ACCAs, proves that it does not want its monopoly to be broken in any sense. Therefore, I believe and recommend that the students wishing to study accounting and finance should adopt ACCA rather than CA since they wont pass the ICAP exams because ICAP has a specific percentage of students to pass. Shame on ICAP!!!!!!
I have also been very critical of ICAP and its examination system. There is no concurrence between the course outline & exams of ICAP. Also I believe that the level at which the things are tested in ICAP exams is not untouchable at all but the pass rates always surprise candidates and most of them never expect them which casts serious doubts on the passing criteria for exams. More recently reducing the exemptions for ACCA affiliates in ICAP was an addition to several shameful attempts by ICAP to put a stop on the growing credibility of ACCA within country. I mean why don't you accept if something is better. But with all due respect to ICAP if someone wants get a fair opinion of ACCA quality they should come to markets outside Pakistan. This writing is not targeted to ICAP students at all as I believe they are the most amazing students our country have looking at how much hardwork(mpst of which goes in vain) they put in. But it criticises the ICAP as a body and its policies