Italy approves draft law banning veil
The draft law would forbid women from wearing a burqa, but also prohibit anyone from covering their faces with a motorcycle helmet or any material of "ethnic origins".
Sponsored by Souad Sbai, a Moroccan-born member of Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's ruling People of Freedom Party (PDL), the draft was adopted on the back of support from the government's coalition party, the Northern League.
The other parliamentary groups for the most part abstained from the vote, while the main opposition Democratic Party (PD) voted against the draft.
Those who breached the law would be fined, with heavy penalties — 30,000 euros ($42,000) and up to 12 months in jail — for third parties who force women to cover their faces in public.
Sbai said she hoped the draft would defend "women without rights who are forced into segregation."
"In France, Belgium and even Muslim Azerbaijan, this law has become reality without any Arabic or Muslim women protesting, which just goes to show how much it is expected," she claimed.
It is rare to see women wearing burqas in the streets of Italy.
The draft will be ruled on by parliament in the autumn.
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@a soul: Dear, you are right. One could also check some Arabic channels to find how pornography and men's (again!) basic instincts are easy to be exploited. I would not say then that pornography is the typical (let alone to be the highest) expression of Western values, as well as stoning women or misuse a law on blasphemy are the highest expression of Islamic ones. Degradation of habits or distort application of values is something we have in common -being us just human beings. We could be glad of this common human nature, hence imperfect, because it may help us to better understand each other from the limitation we have in common, rather then to defend ourselves from an alleged superiority point of view. BTW, the funny thing in any moral or religious prescription is that the more something is banned, the more appealing it seems to be; the more the ban become tighter.
@Hedgefunder: @Dr. Saleem Siddiqi "for a person of your calibre, professiion and obviously with high IQ !! " Oh!!!!!!!!! Obviously, too!!!!!!!!!
@Dr. Saleem Siddiqi:
Well well - I read your links and ....well nope it doesn't say anything about covering a woman's face unless by some twisted manilpulation of interpretation. .....and if you are sexually aroused by a woman's face you need some serious counselling. A pretty woman's face arouses me? No not really - sorry.
Mhb - also South Africa (but from a different planet to Dr Siddiq I think!!)
And how did the moghuls loose their empire so rapidly??? I am very fond of that period and have travelled extensively to feel what a grand bunch they were and have always enjoyed their art, culture and cuisine too !! Ok i understand that you don;t follow BBC, but i was 5 yrs old in 65, so forgive me as i was nit capable of absorbing such stories at the time. So i am now assuming that you are senior to me ?? I enjoy the rapport with you, even if we don;t agree, its a matter of personal opinion !!
@Hedgefunder: HAHA when something is said about you or your leaders, I can feel your pain which is reflective in your above message.
Shivaji's incident is very old so you may not remember, I will give you link as below for details: http://www.preservearticles.com/201101052644/shivajis-escape-from-agra.html
I dont watch BBC from the day when they unilaterally announced during 1965 india - Pakistan War that Indian Army General is drinking wine in Lahore a white lie despite the fact that brave Pakistani forces not only repulsed Indian attached but push them back.
So what is the use of listening or viewing such a one sided liar Media - BBC?
Regards
Dr. Saleem Siddiqi Johannesbur - South Africa/
@Dr. Saleem Siddiqi: Now Doc , you really disappoint ! for a person of your calibre, professiion and obviously with high IQ !! This is not one would expect as response!! All i tried to do was enlighten those who may want to view as to how the side of the argument stands or its views!! Nothing more or less! I sincerely hope that you took the opportunity to watch the BBC clip as that really should be an eye opener for anyone who doubts as to the problems that exist in present day UK.
To all those who really are interested in this issue , here is another link of programe by BBC, on social engineering being conducted in an town in north west England !! Do note that this is their country and yet the efforts being put it to makr this scheme work !!!!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b013cnzp/OurWorldOldhamCrossingthe_Line/
@Hedgefunder: If someone uses a wrong means it is his mistake and not of Islam.
Shivaji escaped in a basket of fruit from Jail from Britisher captivity - so it means all fruits are not good.
So please behave and stop degrading our religion Islam.
Regards
Dr. Saleem Siddiqi Johannesburg - South Africa.
To those of you, who would like an Indian perpective on Islam Phobia in Europe, there is a link below titled, Why is Europe afraid of Islamic way of life, by NDTV Channel.
http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/politically-incorrect/why-is-europe-afraid-of-the-islamic-way-of-life/206964
@ Dr. Saleem Siddiqi
So muslims never interfered in the business of Hindu faith?
What about the state of Hindus in Pakistan. Are their temples not being destroyed there? Are their women not being forcebily converted through force.What about Somnath temple and 1000s of other temples destroyed in India when muslims were in power. Hopefully they are not figments of imagination. Muslims mond their own business when they are weak. When they are on stronger ground, Pakistan happens.
@a soul: Well the Western perception of freedom is rather different, than Islam's !! Do note these women are not forced into such acts, but choose to do it !!! Rest assure they are likely to be better paid than me & you !!!! In west, its a matter of choice, in regards to how this wish to live their lives.
@ulysses: And i can name you another one, when a Somali Terrorist responsible for London Underground Attack tried to leave the country from heathrow in Burqa !!!! So I suppose this is also allowed in Islam!!!!
To all....If you want to see the LEVEL of freedom of women in the WEST, go check adult channels...what a shame!! what a humiliation of women!!!! they should ban adult channels first!!!!!!
@hassan: Poor men, they pretend to be grown-up and still are unable to manage their coarse instincts! And who is to be blamed, segregated, deemed, stoned for that? Women! of course. Ridiculous, hypocritical, dangerous and lethal. There are cases of man wearing a burqa: I remember the case of Abdul Aziz Ghazi from the Lal Masjid in Islamabad.
@Stop The War Coalition: Since when have Muslims ever even tried to intergrate in the main frame societies of the Nations they have taken residence in, even in present day and age???? They like the benefits of education, healthcare, stability, comfort etc, but they really have never even tried to understand or even respect local people or their customs!!!
@goggi: I have crossed, my friend, the river Attock many times spending most of my time on 'its other' shore. And I remember the sounds and the music of Swat Valley before it was stormed by intolerance. And I have met people dressed in a different way, all sincerely Muslims. I think God resides is in our heart, not in our cloak. @Dr. Saleem Siddiqi: Thank you. Nor in the Sura Al-Noon, nor in the Sura Al-Azab I can read any prescription of covering women's face, while other body parts are clearly mentioned. May be just a matter of interpretation? If so, which is the correct interpretation? And in which language? Urdu?Arabic?
Regards.
France, Belgium and now Italy seem to forget the notion of religious freedom. In all these countries, passing the niqab-ban law just increase islamophobia and Muslim-hatred among people. This law is restricting individual freedom (imposing a dress code with a law, really ?), stigmatising the Muslims and not helping integration. To fight against the growing Islamophobia, join the Mass Protest of Stop the War Coalition on October 8th in Trafalgar Square. To get more information go to: http://antiwarassembly.org/
@a: As pointed our earlier, being a non-Muslim, you are not at all suppose to riddicule or make fun of our beloved religion Islam and or Allah's orders.
What Allah has ordered to us, we Muslims are supposed to comply as a pious Muslim. You have no business to comment on it. Moderator please. note.
Regards
Dr. Saleem Siddiqi Johannesburg - South Africa.
@ hassan to @Long Standing: "Women who are objects of desire and if the go without veils, they will arouse the basic passions of men. So, in their own safety, they are told to cover themselves from head to toe."
What a twisted logic- since men cannot control themselves, women should cover them. Rather women should be forced to carry a WHIP instead of a veil, so that whenever a person (like you) cannot control his emotions, they can bring them to senses by whipping.Ok Ppl we nned to Chill and Stop pointing fingers at different religions. 1. Islam is very liberal and it does not force anyone to do anythng. We Muslims follow our religion like all the others. 2. as for forcing Pakistani Christians (NUNS) to change thr dressing well its thr religious dress so we should stay away from it. I mean its this twisted way of thnking that we have which makes othr countries thnk of us as extremists. 3. and In Islam we have Chaddars where we cover ourselves but not the face and Burqas r not necessary. 4. Islam actually forces the Muslim rulers to take care (Life, Property and freedom to follow their religion) of non Muslims living in their country. If they are harmed in any way the Ruler is answerable.
Thr r a lot of othr thngs I want to write but I guess this much is enough.
@ulysses: The true values must have universal validity as the divine laws of the nature. Such is the case with arbitrariness of this burka which is till today opposed and rejected from the majority of Pakistani Muslim women, and surely with the consent of our male dominated society. Only when you cross the river Attock, there prevail another world which resembles the superhuman Arab world. Such peculiar laws of Religion could never prevail over our centuries old traditions which have their roots deep in our souls, e.g. the suppression and abolishing of music and sangeet as whole. It never worked and gave way to non-instrumental singing arts like Sufi-kaafi, naat or marsiya..............................................How many melodies and different songs are stored in the minds of Pakistani women and men? Thousands and thousands and thousands, and no religion can eradicate them from our memories because..........music and singing is the most dominant tradition of the masses of Pakistani people, a religious tradition which rules our hearts!!!
@ulysses: @Long Standing:
Allah has strictly instructed in Quran. Since you will not understand urdu translation, on your request, I am appending links with English Translation so that you may also read and understand it:
http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/?Sura=33&FromVerse=59&Translation=Eng-Dr. Mohsin&Script=Usmani
http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/?Sura=24&FromVerse=31&Translation=Eng-Dr. Mohsin&Script=Usmani
Good and bad people are in every religion. Those who comply Allah's instructions are pious and will be suitably rewarded and vice versa.
Hope you will review and understand foregoing. Quran is a way of guidance. I invite you to read this book to seek guidance for a rewarding way of life here and after.
Regards
Dr. Saleem Siddiqi Johannesburg - South Africa
@Dr. Saleem Siddiqi: Only a blind can audaciously define WHAT light is! ..................hope you understand the difference between "what" and "how"?
@Hamza Ali Khan: I have known the Pakistani culture as vibrant and diverse on its own. I am glad to see the debate -as far as I understood, most of the comments are from Pakistani- is reflecting the perception I have had. Cultures and traditions are actually challenged in Western countries as well as in others, in Muslim countries as well. I think people normally react protecting their own traditions and culture they perceive are in danger. Hence the feeling of insecurity and the reaction of intolerance (it is something I can testify in my own country). It is not by chance that migrants are more keen to preserve traditions from their homelands, being their identities exposed to more trials. Drafting a law on ban to burqas (moreover doing it with amending a law on security) is the perfect sample of such insecurity. p.s. the law regards only burqas and niqab because they make difficult to identify, not any veil. Even no longer practiced among the youngest, I can still remember from my childhood Italian women wearing a 'foulard' to cover their heads. The practice to cover one's head is still mandatory in the Vatican protocol for women who are going to meet the Pope.
@Dr. Saleem Siddiqi: Sorry,I am not a Muslim, I have been visiting and working in Muslim countries though (Pakistan and Afghanistan among others). It seems to me the practice of wearing burqa or niqab is not widespread in all Muslim countries. As far as I can see from the comments above, neither is a common habits in Pakistan, nor commonly accepted. So, are all those people wrong, bad Muslims, unaware of The teachings? And who is supposed to know The teaching? Regarding the comments to Longstanding, well, I would say I partially agree on his point of view. As a matter of fact, I have no memory of women imposing any wearing rules to men.Thank you and regards.
@Dr. Saleem Siddiqi: I am sure you are not a Muslim - Irrelevant as I believe in God
"It is an order from Allah and we Muslims have to follow it in letter and spirit. No arguments." I believe Islam allows religious discourse as all other religions do... Can you , for my information quote relevant passages from Quaran or Hadith. I would be englightened.
Sincerely
Why do we/Muslims have trouble with everything? Or specifically us Pakistanis? Its their country, and with a democratic voice, they are free to pass any legislation. We have our Tableeghi Jamaats visiting every other non-Muslim country. Have those non-Muslim countries ever objected to that practice? Simple answer is No. Now imagine a Christian missionary from Italy coming to Pakistan to preach Christianity. How would we react to that? I bet thousands would be on streets objecting to that and trying to stone them. That is what we have become- insecure and intolerant. Hypocrisy on our part. They allow us to live their countries and give us a chance to get their nationalities. Compare that with fellow Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Gulf states- they don't even recognize us as proper citizens let alone allowing us to become a part of their country. Hypocrites- that is what we all are.
We need to do the same in India.
@Long Standing: I am sure you are not a Muslim as if you aware of Quranic teachings. It is an order from Allah and we Muslims have to follow it in letter and spirit. No arguments.
Regards
Dr. Saleem Siddiqi Johannesburg - South Africa
@san: Again Indian Hindus commenting on our beloved religion Islam is highly unwarranted and deplorable. We follow our own book of guidance which is Quran and we do not need and comments or suggestions like this from a non-Muslim. We respect other relgion and do not do interference and expect the same from the other community. So please refrain from commenting on our religion which is neither appreciated nor welcomed and created bad taste here.
Regards
Dr. Saleem Siddiqi
Johannesburg - South Africa.
I support Muslim women wearing the veil but if you talk about Nuns, then:
Nuns choose the head-covering veil 'at their own will' when they are adults to decide.
I have seen Abayas/ veils on 6-9 year olds, would you call that a choice or something forced upon them ? Are they old enough to decide ?
How can you compare the two ?
I am sure that all of you who are supporting the ban on full-veil have all the supporting facts and numbers of veiled women blowing themselves up as suicide bombers and being 'forced' to wear the veil. 'fear' can make yo believe anything.
Regards.
True is that one can see very few burqas on Italy's streets. The 'security' reasons actually sounds as an alleged reason in the case. The proposal amends an existing law on security, that already forbids to disguise one's face in public places without a justified reason, adding the ban for burqas and niqab and foresees fines for whoever forces women to wear them). In the proposal there is no reference to any ban for 'any material of “ethnic origins”, so this part is simply false. In fact what could be of 'ethnic origin'? and what would 'any material' mean? Like: sandals... bracelets... a shirt 'Made in China'...? what to do then with all the souvenir brought by tourists from abroad? A norm written like this would be ridiculous and inapplicable and in fact is not there. Really not well done, Tribune! So, the law actually aims to 'free' women to impositions on wearing certain kind of dresses. It's really challenging in terms of adequateness, effectiveness and can have backlashes with increasing the segregation of those women: 'if you cannot go out dressed with your burqa, you won't go out at all'. That is (one of) the reason why the PD party decided to oppose the law. The law has passed only one commission in the Camera (Italy's Low Chamber). Then the Senate has to give its vote on this. And, if the law will be seen dangerous for fundamental rights (as religious ones are in Italian constitution), the Constitutional Court will have the opportunity to let its statement be clear again like in the past and such a norm will no longer be applicable.
@Adeerash If women want to continue covering their face I fail to understand what drives them or their male folk to leave their homes and migrate to countries where many live as asylum seekers and as illegals. I also think linking the burqa to Pakistan or Islam is misplaced. Those who do so should view the lives of women in all the regions of Pakistan and try and take in how they manage their daily lives in different regions. How many women have we come across milking cows and doing other chores in the fields with their face veiled? Burqa or veiled faces is lifestyle many Muslim cannot afford - where do they stand in terms of their faith are they to be banished from the fold of Islam? Rather than the silly notion of pointing fingers at the habits of nuns, whose faces are bared, look for some practices that are more obvious. Would Pakistani society tolerate western women moving about dressed in their attire? Other than a few odd cases this would be extremely intolerable. Even those western women who adorned Pakistan dresses and try to adapt norms of its society are frowned upon if they do not have head scarves. Before condemning others for intolerance please look inwards.
According to the BBC, china has also imposed religious restrictions on muslims in Xinjiang!
A woman who believes and wants to practice veil has no business to be in Europe. She should stay in her country of origin
@Aadersh: How many Western female visitors to Pakistan do you see wearing mini skirts in Pakistan, leave alone Pakistani women in such dress?
@Aadersh: Well, we Pakistanis will never ban their religious outfits but we will feel free to burn their place of worships and wrongfully accuse them of blasphemy when it seems fit. Is that what you are trying to say? While Islam respects the rights of all minorities, do we? My friend, "WE" pakistanis are much less tolerant than you would like to believe!
@Long Standing: Women have been the object of humiliation and supression by men. In addition, men cannot and would not control their animal instincts so the easy option is cover the women totally. Does not matter if her health is in dangere or it is too hot for so much covering in dark burqas. As long as the men rule all the laws would favor them. Thanks and regards, Mirza
@from india: That's true
Why do Pakistani's care what the Italian's wear? If you don't want to dress according to their standards don't go to Italy ---- no big deal.
this will never happen in india ....
@Long Standing:
Women who are objects of desire and if the go without veils, they will arouse the basic passions of men. So, in their own safety, they are told to cover themselves from head to toe.
Men too can wear veils and cover themselves provided they are handsome enough to arouse desire in women. And to protect themselves from women falling over men, they can wear veil. It is allowed.
Oh really!! you r trying to defend the evil thought behind the ban of veil....okyyy then how you defend ban on Hijab it is close to habits of Nuns...isn't it??
Good on them ! The so called refugees and asylum seekers have ruined the country and its demographics too, as they simply will never be able to intergrate!!!!
@Adersh
How you wrote "we Pakistanis will never ban any religious dress or activity because we respect minorities n Islam respects other religion’s rights" I want to explain one little thing to u. Do you know hindu marriages still are not legal in Pakistan, they cant prove that they r husband wife.....how liberal we pakistani for minorities.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
Don't foreign women wear a coat and a scarf in Iran? On a visa change at Kish Island I witnessed female airport police asking foreign women to purchase a long coat and a scarf from a duty free shop or they will not be allowed entry.
@rusm: you contradict my dear !!!making corruption punishable by death.............death penalty is abolished in secular humanist Europa .......it is a learning process which we Muslims need another couple of millenniums to understand the value of life, either humans, animals or the rest of ecology. Killing a killer in the name of justice, religion and in the name of the people is absolutely an insanity!
Banning this horrible Arab cloak in Italy (although never saw one in Italy) is one more step towards the liberation of the women rights.......... enforcement of such human laws have their roots in the European history when they eradicated the centuries old witch persecution of women strongly backed from the Roman catholic Church. European secular humanism has its foundation in reasoning and not in mere faith and religious customs. We have caged up our women out of religious beliefs and these people have educated the eyes of their societies with reasoning.
All argue... but no one answers my query ;-(
It is true that you dont find many women with niqab in Italy and this law is passed in commission there is time still to applicate. PD (democratic party) against this draft because they have fear that men dont allow their women to go out and those women remain in home like prison.
@Aadersh: Actually, you're resting in false pride of 'we Pakistanis'. Let me correct your assertions here.
The habit worn by the nuns all over the world never requires a face covering. The banning here by Italy and other countries is ONLY where the face is covered.
Since you got such a glaring point wrong, arguing anything else with you on minorities etc is pointless. Especially considering this statement by you: "we Pakistanis will never ban any religious dress or activity because we respect minorities n Islam respects other religion’s rights"
Talk about having blinders on.
@Aadersh:
Ban the habits in Pakistan and promise not to brutally kill or persecute Christians under blasphemy law as is the case in Pakistan currently, and it would actually be a positive step forward which I am sure will be welcomed by Christian community.
Well I really don't care about Burqas and Veils... Everyone has the right to wear and do what they like and I don't think any kind of hatred is involved so people stop always thinking negatively... U guys really need to get a life...
Can any body explain to me why should only a woman wear a burqas and not men.... What is the defining logic that makes only burqa applicable only to women?
By covering your face with a Burka you send a certain message. So why go and claim asylum in Europe and insist on wearing a burka? Better to stay inside a house and never go out in your own country if you believe in Burka. Let the women who wear Burka move to Saudia or Iran and be treated like a real burka women.
@adersh
Please look at the state of minorities in Pakistan, you're statement seems a bit out of tune with Pakistan's reality!
Hypocrisy of the west! With such intolerance in their society, the west should refrain from claiming to represent a free society! Pakistan has security booths where women remove their veil and are checked for security by other women! It is never a security issue.
This is just being done to ridicule the Muslims and their practices! And while no label is placed on the west for such racist laws, any reaction by the Muslims would be termed as intolerance and extremism!
Good. We need three urgent laws 1. making Pakistan a republic and banning any archaic and barbaric religious laws 2. making corruption punishable by death 3. banning all parties based on religion.
...glad to read this...i hope they implement it quickly...it is not islamic, but a beduin culture for women to cover their face....who would like to sit next to a ninja-turtle in office, public transport or open space?...this will still not stop all those saudi and other arab women from shopping in UK and europe this summer.
Bravo Italy!
The Australians are the ones to be looked at on this topic when it comes to judging this kind of thing. They have the right idea. http://tribune.com.pk/story/202811/australian-police-get-power-to-demand-removal-of-burqas/
That is as far as anyone should go with the topic of burka restrictions.
I may as well point out that I am not Muslim and have no interest in becoming one, so I'm not speaking out due to taking offense in some way. Rules help with order, obviously. But, they're supposed to be seen as good and reasonable, benefiting those they are applied to in some way. When they start trying to run someone's personal life and they put negative restrictions on some, and not all of the population, it's going too far. Yes, there are upsides and downsides to both ways of going about it. But, I do believe if there's a choice between restriction and freedom, the one with freedom attached is superior. Though I'm well aware that is just a matter of personal opinion.
good for italy
@postman
i think its more of a message to those hard core muslims who dont want to integrate into Italian society. The deserts of arabia might be fine for a Burka, but not the modern cities of Europe or the lush green country of Pakistan.
The burka represents an ideiology which Europe is openly saying no to.
watever....i am super scared to enter a mall or board a flight with someone whose face is covered. Its security issue....i do not feel secure.People do not feel secure.We panic for our lives....If you cannot respect this then please do not enter countries where security and safety is important.Please visit and live in countries which welcome burqa.I am for sure and know a lot of people who are terrified of flying with these people.
With due respect to minorities in Pakistan...What if Pakistan bans the religious habit(traditional dress of Nuns) ?? Pakistan will b declared terrorist state of fanatic Muslims & extremists but that is the difference between a Muslim state n a Non-Muslim state we Pakistanis will never ban any religious dress or activity because we respect minorities n Islam respects other religion's rights....Shame on these so called liberal westerns...
'It is rare to see women wearing burqas in the streets of Italy.'
The politics of fear and hate has resulted in devising of a law where none was needed at all.