Veena Malik and social tyranny

Published: February 2, 2011
The writer is a recent graduate of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, where she was a student fellow with the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

The writer is a recent graduate of Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, where she was a student fellow with the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

The discussion on the Veena Malik controversy has centered on herFrontlineinterview with Kamran Shahid. However, I was more disturbed by Abdur Rauf’s “50 Minutes” on Geo TV, which came on two hours earlier. In a town hall-style format, dozens of people in the room, goaded by their host, parroted the same opinion: Veena Malik had shamed Pakistan as a country and culture.

I understand that many Pakistanis feel this way. But was there not one audience member who had an inkling of doubt, who worried about the implications of condemning a woman based on what she wore or did in another country, or just outright disagreed? There was one, but she was silenced. If there were more, we would never know. The atmosphere was decided, and it intimidated anyone in the room with a minority view to stay silent or convert to the dominant opinion. The show seemed more like a hoax trial before a witch burning, rather than a real discussion meant to inform a national audience.

You don’t need to have seen the programme to understand what I am talking about. What happened on “50 Minutes” is a microcosm for what is happening in Pakistan more broadly: Tyranny of the minority — in this case, an intellectual minority — by the majority.

‘Tyranny of the majority’ is a term usually reserved for bookish college students, signed up for political philosophy 101, but it has a remarkable bearing on what many Pakistanis experience every day, perhaps without realising it. The term was coined by British philosopher and parliamentarian, John Stuart Mill, concerned with determining the rightful amount of authority that one man (or woman) can exercise over another. He wrote that while people have historically been obsessed with the abuse of power by governments — political despotism — an equal threat comes from society.

In short, while the threat of military coups and dictatorships is well-appreciated and oft-protested in Pakistan, it is social tyranny that, unchecked, has greater potential to ruin lives and the soul of the country.

But what if you belong to the majority? Why should it be important to you that people can always express their opinions, even if they are wrong? Mill offers two reasons. First, generally, the so-called ‘wrong’ opinion may actually be right — man is not infallible in his judgment and has no authority to make decisions for all humankind, robbing every other person, and future generations, of the right to judge for himself or herself. Secondly, it is through the process of discussion that the truth, and arguments for it, become elucidated and more fully understood. For that reason, not knowing how to have a civilised discussion is Pakistan’s greatest tragedy.

Instead, mob mentality prevails. And the problem with the masses, as Shakespeare once illustrated in Julius Caesar, is that they are fickle. At one moment, they support a man. At another, they rally around his assassin. Brutus or Mumtaz Qadri, pick your villain-turned-pop-hero.

So how can social tyranny be stopped? Pakistan needs leadership, and I don’t mean the Islamabad-kind (although that would, of course, help). Instead, leadership needs to be more broadly redefined: If the tyranny that Pakistan faces comes from its own society, even our own homes, then the leadership to fight it will be found there as well.

The media is a powerful source of leadership in Pakistan. In this case, the media bears a huge responsibility to ensure that it does not become a tool for social tyranny. Watching “50 Minutes”, I was shocked that Abdur Rauf allowed the time to pass with hardly a diverse thought expressed, while the invited guests clearly self-censored themselves, out of fear of reprisal for dissent. Instead, the host should have probed the audience for minority views, protected those who expressed them, and played devil’s advocate (a figurative, not literal expression), to expose new realisations and further tolerance, as the “50 Minutes” website promises.

Last year, Geo TV’s CEO, Mir Ibrahim Rehman, was a fellow student at Harvard Kennedy School. At commencement, he gave a brilliant speech about the dangers of certainty and the importance of being, of all things, confused. He said: “I came here [to Harvard] to find how I can better serve my people, but learnt instead that my primary service was to frustrate them enough so they would lead themselves… The power of confusion can and should be celebrated. The celebration of doubt can help us see things better, with fresh eyes, open curiosity and a beginner’s mind and heart. The premise of confusion has more potential in bringing peace and prosperity than most think. The audacity, sometimes, is in being too sure. Together, we have learnt about two kinds of confusion, one that leads to doubt and inaction, and the other more positive kind, that leads to pause… reflection and better action. It is this second kind that helps us be smarter troublemakers.”

Many Pakistani leaders make speeches in the West, but quickly shed their promises as soon as they come home and realise how great the challenges are. I hope that Mir will live up to his promise to create positive confusion in Pakistan, by shaking up the dangerous certainty that Pakistanis seek as comfort and protecting the inherent value of dissenting opinions.

But Pakistan also has a bad case of finger-pointing — to foreign governments, their own government, the media and powerful individuals. Ultimately, each individual in Abdur Rauf’s audience bears the greatest responsibility for the discussion that took place there. Similarly, Pakistanis, each one of them, have a responsibility to speak up, resist the pressure to conform, and to own creative and original thoughts. The next time you hear something that doesn’t sound right, say so. Chances are, others feel the same way, but lack the courage to speak. At least ask a question. Civil disobedience, on the smallest scale, would take Pakistan a long way. You may be ridiculed or admonished, but leaders do what is right in the pursuit of a higher good and a sense of service. They are not silenced out of fear of reprisal.

Published in The Express Tribune, February 2nd, 2011.

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Reader Comments (53)

  • ishaq
    Feb 2, 2011 - 12:55AM

    In 50 minute Veena Malik was not present there so audience were unable
    to see and hear what Veena Malik Herself have to say in her Defence.. That
    Kind of shows show us how some anchors push their own Agenda.Recommend

  • rehan
    Feb 2, 2011 - 12:56AM

    Another “intellectual”has joined the bandwagon.Welcome Ma’am.Recommend

  • Feb 2, 2011 - 1:11AM

    Very well written.

    we do need a pause and reflection at the national level. I hope Mir Ibrahim reads this, his employees could benefit from a bit of confusion… Recommend

  • Aamir
    Feb 2, 2011 - 1:35AM

    I’m sorry… is this article calling Veena Malik an intellectual? I’ll file this under the funny pages.Recommend

  • Feb 2, 2011 - 1:46AM

    Veena Malik has called a spade a spade, and for that I salute her!Recommend

  • saleem muhammad
    Feb 2, 2011 - 3:05AM

    Rightly pointed out.Recommend

  • R S
    Feb 2, 2011 - 3:13AM

    @ Rehan… I would assume ‘intellectual’ is a compliment there..:P ever thought why it is generally highly educated and rational people putting forward that similar line of thought, you are (i guess) opposed to? May be, because they know better?Recommend

  • Aiman Mughni
    Feb 2, 2011 - 3:24AM

    Very well written. you have described and expressed the real scenarios in an excellent fashion. i was completely hooked at your every line. hope to see more of your writings.Recommend

  • Talha Khan
    Feb 2, 2011 - 9:59AM

    It looks a great effort to discuss the mentality of our nation and their behaviors against a woman in the media.

    People might be against the work done by Veena malik, but the act done by Rauf sb and Shahid sb were worst in comparison from the convicted artist. We are totally ashamed that all the media and especially woman in our country are helpless in support for veena. The way they humiliated the character of veena looks awkward and unethical. This kind of behavior encourages the mentally ill people to behave fatal and they act silently.

    I request to the senior media professionals not to intervene in the personal life of the people. If they wish to sell their program then they should invite the guest individually and discuss the matter with grace.

    At least in our country we should give respect even to the most worst woman, I believe that God almighty will also hide our bad deed that we do openly and in isolation. Recommend

  • rehan
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:35AM

    @Aamir. Hahaha.Only “intellectuals” can ‘identify’ the “intellectuals” out of this 14 Crore ‘bewakoof awam’.Arrogance and Pride at its intellectual best!Recommend

  • Feb 2, 2011 - 10:42AM


    Not say.. She weep in her defence only.

    Well, it thought, this topic is ended. Veena Malik done wrong. But now i think tribune should stop more artical on same issues after so much time.Recommend

  • naveed ahmed
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:49AM

    The way u r justifying veena,i must say that one can justify terror,robbery etc.afterall moral ethics must be there and every society needs it to establish his writ.Recommend

  • shazli
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:50AM

    well…. for me.. it’s all about publicity… everybody needs fame and popularity.. but for veena, it’s all about to be most popular to get an indian movie… with these acts of controversies.. she can get popularity to indian people. so they may know her after these acts specially after big boss drama…!Recommend

  • Usman
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:58AM

    rational thoughts embodied effectively. The emphasis on positivity of “doubt” will lead to eventual self correction. I appreciate the writer.Recommend

  • Hammad Ali
    Feb 2, 2011 - 11:04AM

    ”Similarly, Pakistanis, each one of them, have a responsibility to speak up, resist the pressure to conform, and to own creative and original thoughts. The next time you hear something that doesn’t sound right, say so.”

    Start practicing this as it would take us long way !!!!!!!!! Recommend

  • Usman Ahmad
    Feb 2, 2011 - 11:25AM

    A Harvard gradute thus polluting and wasting her energies…Oh God have mercy on us! No offense! but you could have written on more demanding and pressing issues of Pakistan’s governmental policies. tut-tut-tut…Recommend

  • Rituraj
    Feb 2, 2011 - 11:54AM

    I ask you to watch the show, did you?
    I watched it and the anchor did a good job at being impartial!Recommend

  • Change
    Feb 2, 2011 - 12:10PM

    Such eloquence. Great thought process and I would have to completely agree with the writer! For those commenting on this article, I understand you are part of the ‘majority’, the herd mentality the writer speaks of. So pause. Think about what she’s saying. That confusion might lead to enlightenment. You are not always right because the person next to you or your friends share similar views. Freedom of expression is everyone’s right. You are not the judge of anyone’s actions of their fate. Educate yourselves! Hopefully one day I can reach out to you all, confined in your uneducated view of the world and bring real change. Recommend

  • Sabah
    Feb 2, 2011 - 12:45PM

    Excuseme madam why are you comparing Veena with Mr.Taseer and creating confusion in the minds of people.She did not said anything about religion in BIG BOSS4.Veena realized her mistake for which she said SORRY in a morning show at SAMAA TV.Recommend

  • Waqqas Iftikhar
    Feb 2, 2011 - 12:52PM

    very well – written – brilliant piece

    i find it hilarious that various commenters within our society equate personal lifestyle choices to scoial ills like theiving, robbing, murdering etc..

    a revealing dress or casual sex, or imbibing alcohol does not equate to killing, looting, raping, thieving….at all, the sooner people understand that the closer we will be to leaving he twilight zoneRecommend

  • parvez
    Feb 2, 2011 - 1:03PM

    Enjoyed reading this. Forces one to stop and think and I do agree with your view.Recommend

  • Feb 2, 2011 - 1:13PM

    My thoughts exactly Nadia. I was hoping that the next young speaker in the room will raise a counter issue but they were unanimous in their condemnation of Veena.

    My question to channels is that they seem to err on the conservative side – there are always enough to represent that side and if in doubt they will invite a turbanned gentleman.

    How is it that the likes of Naji, Najam Sethi, Asma Jahangir or NFP are never invited to these shows? It does Pakistani youth a disservice to see the right and far right represented to the detriment of anything sounding remotely secular and rational. And one expression that should be banned from conversation is (in my bad version of Urdu in English) “Doosre rai ki koi Gunjaish hi nahin”. (Said after a person quotes a hadeeth or some religious text). Now if a person speaks after this statement, he or she would be in jail for blasphemy or worse meet the fate of Taseer. Recommend

  • Ayra
    Feb 2, 2011 - 1:34PM

    Well articulated. Unfortunately perception driven thoughts prevails and we are left with very little room to allow intellectual discourse on rational thinking and objectivity to develop consensus. Recommend

  • arshad
    Feb 2, 2011 - 1:36PM

    kindly forget veena,,, she is not that much important that people writing so much about her. There is a lot of other issues which Pakistan is facing and we can constructively participate in overcoming those.

  • Brilliant
    Feb 2, 2011 - 1:42PM

    What a brilliant piece and the fact that you quoted John Stuart Mill and Shakespeare, and even tweeted about it , speaks of your genius! Recommend

  • anie
    Feb 2, 2011 - 1:50PM

    MISS SABAH, veena NEVER appologized and “realized her mistake” ( i dont know wat her mistake was in the first place but anyway ) she said if she has intentionally hurt someone then she never meant to…she is not sorry for her actions and NOR SHOULD SHE BE !Recommend

  • M. H. Hussain
    Feb 2, 2011 - 2:42PM

    Were we not ashamed when Yahya Khan was visiting prostitutes????
    Were we not ashamed when our Islamist President Zia-ul-Haq was praising Heema Malini’s cheeks????
    Were we not ashamed when we saw the pictures of our President boozing in China????
    Were we not ashamed when Our foreign minister was drinking and giggling with Halery Clinton???? (He is also a Gaddi-nasheen Pir!!!! Poor followers)

    Whatever Veena did was NOT right. But come on people, you have been negllecting your leaders’ immoralities for long…Let’s do it one more time….Recommend

  • kashif
    Feb 2, 2011 - 2:45PM

    all liberals lost mind, remember you are muslim first, you people living in constant state of denialRecommend

  • Ibne Khattana
    Feb 2, 2011 - 3:52PM

    I think this lady never watched Fox news , how they twist facts for their own interests or may be she watched but don’t have the courage to write up thats the problem of these so called liberals “”Recommend

  • sammy n
    Feb 2, 2011 - 4:06PM

    leave the women alone ! muslims should believe in only god judging them on jugement day !! no human has a right to judge another . what she wore or did does not affect the life of the citizens of pakistan ,and if she has wronged then she is answerable to god not us !! get a life please !! who has appointed half the country to sit in jugement on what islam allows and what it doesnt !? people , live and let live !! dont waste ur time on irrelevant issues , our country is going to the dogs ,politically and economically ,do something about that !! know ur priorities !veena malik is a nonissue!Recommend

  • Waqqas Iftikhar
    Feb 2, 2011 - 4:38PM

    @ibne khattana…you wouldnt want to watch fox news though right? most of our channels being like fox news will not really be the epitome of intellectual evolutionRecommend

  • Feb 2, 2011 - 4:56PM

    Thank you for sharing (a portion of) Mir Ibrahim Rehman’s speech with us. It is indeed insightful and well-thought.

    These are the correct strings that need to be plucked, although, unfortunately, I am sure that the majority of readers can’t associate these things with Veena’s case. I think most men in Pakistan are still confused and hypocritical about ghar wali versus bahar wali. They see Veena as a ghar wali and that she hasn’t upheld the ‘family values’, various and sundry as they may be.

    I hope you don’t mind that I have put up my Facebook status: “Not knowing how to have a civilised discussion is Pakistan’s greatest tragedy”, which I got from this article. I fully agree with this statement.

    Reporting with integrity would come under Islam’s concept of Ikhlaq. But here in Pakistan, that’s a long-forgotten concept.Recommend

  • MAD
    Feb 2, 2011 - 5:06PM

    My opinion of that particular show was that it was a witch hunt and the audience was planted. the multiple references to Geo launching her career gave away the real agenda here which was to punish Veena for ditching Geo.Recommend

  • Ali
    Feb 2, 2011 - 7:21PM

    I can’t understand obsession of our so called liberals and hardliners with this issue. I am not against Veena Malik and think that whatever she had done was her right as an individual. But I also do not see her as beacon of hope for future of Pakistan. For past one month, 160 millions people are quarreling over a kiss and that is pretty ridiculous. Leave her and her opponents to their own devices, there are many other important issues facing this country.Recommend

  • Manjit singh
    Feb 2, 2011 - 9:59PM

    Why morality is always expected from women in our society? Would there had been such a criticism if there was a male pakistani artist in place of veena? Whatever immoral that male would have done with his indian female co inhabitant would have rather made many pakistanis proud .an indian film will have indian hero romancing with pakistani heroine in role, never the vice versa . Same is true for paki cinema.this is an example how feudal mentality makes women a token of family or national pride Recommend

  • Khan
    Feb 2, 2011 - 11:19PM

    I think Veena Malik is a sign of hope. How brave of a woman to single handedly defend herself in the way that she has and thank god for the few that came out on these shows to support her. Everything she says is absolutely correct. We need to eduae and better ourselves. If you are concerned about Pakistan’s bad image then go address sexual assault in madrasas, go end prostitution, bride burning, rape, family violence and all these atrocities against women and children. I am a proud Pakistani only because of people like Veena Malik.Recommend

  • Khan
    Feb 2, 2011 - 11:22PM

    We have our values all screwed up when greatest problem is Veena Malik. I agree with women like Ms. Tahmena Bokhari, a professor and women’s rights activist who says that somehow for men, and I would say epecially these Pakistani men, the greatest threat is when a woman does nobehave according to social norms. I love the quote Ms Bokhari gave that throughout it history, it is not the well behaved women who made history.
    Tahmena Bokhari is one amazing person and we need more like her in this world.

  • Alish
    Feb 3, 2011 - 1:05AM

    Its so easy to point fingers at other specially if your a pakistani. Every one has the right to believe what they wish and like. As much as you have the right to believe what you want, you don’t have the right to impose it to others. Veena may be wrong or right, but as long as she don’t justify her thoughts using Islam, nobody should have any issue. Problem don’t arise from doing bad, problem actually emerges when you class that wrong as right. Do as you wish but just don’t bother justifying it, as from the point you start justifying your acts using common beliefs of others, those ‘others’ then become entitled to hold opinion against you.
    Concerning your writing, I think we have far more and important issues to dicuss and debate. Only if we leave these lame issues aside, we can move forward and its time we actually do need to move on and personally thinking we can not move on untill we believe in true meaning of islam rather then amending it to our own likings. Recommend

  • Rana Asghar
    Feb 3, 2011 - 9:52AM

    Hats off to Veena! We love you & you made us proud. Don’t be scared with these Mullah’s they are nothing except trouble makers.Recommend

  • Anjabeen Shah
    Feb 3, 2011 - 1:09PM

    A very well-written piece. And thought-provoking too. The majority of our readers seem to overlook the gist of the entire argument. It encourages peopel to speak out and dare to differ. Dare to swim against the tide. Dare to tell the majority that they are wrong. Dare and stand by it. This article is NOT about a certain actress or a certain host . Its about YOU. The Public.The people who can bring about a change.
    Well Done Nadia.Recommend

  • Jeddy
    Feb 3, 2011 - 3:12PM

    Tyranny of the minority over the silent majority. The minority wants to ban and censor everything they can, which is an abominationRecommend

  • Ritu
    Feb 3, 2011 - 8:45PM

    Amazingly well written article and yes intellectual is equated to those with an open-mind who would not try to control conditions (whether it be gender issues or otherwise), so the lack of its presence in Pakistan and the obsession to control the fate of people by pulling out the religion card doesn’t make much sense. Recommend

  • Myra
    Feb 4, 2011 - 12:21AM

    Excellent article!Recommend

  • Grouper
    Feb 4, 2011 - 5:31AM

    Brilliant! As a great man once said: “the definition of genius is to being able to hold two opposing thoughts in your mind at the same time.” Certainty in one’s thoughts and beliefs does not lead one very far intellectually.Recommend

  • Feb 4, 2011 - 5:34AM

    I think Veena episode has exposed the hypocrisy and double standards of our society. That 50 miutes show was indeed a shame because of the opinions of the people which were contrary to their OWN attire. Recommend

  • NS
    Feb 4, 2011 - 10:24AM

    Unfortunately the price of speaking what one feels is right, is not responded with tolerance rather with bullets. Recommend

  • Afzal Hussain
    Feb 4, 2011 - 2:31PM

    I think its a free world and everyone has a right to have an opinion. I respect Nadia’s opinion. But having said that I must say Newspapers particularly English Newspapers are promoting Pseudo intellectuals. This article is a mere reflection. The writer is a recent graduate of Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, where she was a student fellow with the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs. I guess someone in editorial section is promoting his personal friends or a particulary view point. Anyone who has been to a foreign university (UK, & USA) has become an intellectual who can dictate his or her opinion. If you want to wear a short dress please suit yourself we do not mind but people who does not like such stuff can’t be condemned on their views. Everyone has a write to have an opinion. You represent liberal extremists and people who are giving fatwas against veena malik are religious extremist. Both are dangerous for Pakistan. Our overwhelming majority is moderate. Veena Malik did all this because she wanted to be popular and that’s all. “Wanna be” mentality. Ms. Writer, I invite you to write an article on Raymond Davis, and his actions in Lahore. Recommend

  • shuja
    Feb 4, 2011 - 5:00PM

    why discuss Veena Malik’s actions so much.Dont these pious people know what is going on in starless hotels to five star hotels in Pakistan?I am sure neither any indian actor was nominated by the indian government nor Veena by Pakistan.She went there on her own.Why pious people dont dicuss muslim actor Imran Hashmi of India of Shahrukh Khan for marrying a non muslim.Please look up at deteriorating moralities at our homes where we dont hesitate to see vulgar movies alongwith family members & love to see our daughters dancing to vulgar indian tunes at MENHDI ceremony in front of other people.Our double standards…..Recommend

  • Schazad
    Feb 4, 2011 - 6:10PM

    @Afzal Hussain:
    How many people have liberal extremists killed? Have you seen any with sticks and provoke intimidation? How many have you seen being vigilantes? Misguiding people…

    Mullah brigade is cancer to our society and has to be eradicated if our country wants to prosper. Thats the verdictRecommend

  • Shams Zaman
    Feb 4, 2011 - 6:30PM

    Another intellectual secular extremist’s discourse. She is trying to mock the religious and ethical sentiments of majority population and justify that the secular minority is facing the tyranny of the religious majority. Maybe she needs to read some good readings on democracy and learn to respect the sentiments of majority. I don’t understand why only secular and vulgar thoughts are regarded as “civilized and original” and why religious sentiments are termed as “outdated and oppressive”. Thanks God still majority of Pakistani society regards their social, cultural and religious norms as civilized and consider western values as inimical to their social and religious beliefs. It is only those seculars who have become so obsessed with the western culture and norms that they would go to any extent to criticize the religious and social values, intellectually crumbling under the inferiority complex of being born to an Islamic and Eastern society. Lets take pride in our social and religious values and it must be remembered that these values are not based on gender but rather principles but unfortunately most men consider it only a taboo for women which is condemnable.Recommend

  • Meera Ghani
    Feb 4, 2011 - 7:12PM

    Sad that many people instead of reflecting on the message of the article…went on and on about Veena Malik who was merely used as an example to elaborate on Pakistan’s mob mentality. Why cant more people rise up and say what they really think and feel instead of what they think they ‘should’ be saying in order to fit in.

    That said, I think we’re giving people the benefit of the doubt…I think the author is right to point out the tyranny of the majority. Because sadly the majority does think like the audience in the 50 minutes show….it is also evident in the comments above. People who think differently are often seen as westernized outcasts- “liberal extremists” (the horrible oxymoron that get thrown around time and time again). Just because you differ in opinion from the majority doesn’t mean that you should be automatically labeled and put in one camp.

    I also agree with some of the commentators that its odd that in our society personal lifestyles are equated to social ills and that our moral compass is soo skewed that we hail a murderer but we cant tolerate a woman dressing differently. I think media plays a large role in perpetuating the social appetite for this moral policing. We are soo far gone as a society that we cant even see the difference between right and wrong. We are quick to judge others but fail to apply the same standards to ourselves. This constant obsession with religion piety and self-righteousness has made us forget how to be human.

    I pray for the day that people open their hearts and minds stop judging each other by how good “muslims” because only Allah can be the judge of that, but rather by how our actions affect others in a positive way. I think the author sums it up rather well “not knowing how to have a civilised discussion is Pakistan’s greatest tragedy”.Recommend

  • Feb 4, 2011 - 7:30PM

    I agree with ‘Schazad’ above and completely oppose the view Shams Zaman presented above, because he fails to recognize the positive aspects of the writer’s intended message. It is not about Veena Malik and any vulgarity associated with her. In religion, the one Shams Zaman contends to support, the concept of ‘Hayah’ is a two-way one – men need it in their eyes – in how they view women – and women need to have it in their external presentation. If you are pretending to be a religious man, you shouldn’t even watch Big Boss if you find it offensive. The fact that you view it, think about it, and then talk about it – makes it ten times dirtier. And when you come on television to talk about, you reach the living rooms of all the people who hold this ‘majority’ view – scandalizing them as well by forcing them to think along these lines. Recommend

  • Meera Ghani
    Feb 4, 2011 - 8:23PM

    “Hypocrisy is the most difficult and nerve racking vice that any man can pursue; it needs an unceasing vigilance and rare detachment of spirit. It cannot, like adultery or gluttony, b practiced at spare moments; it is a whole time job” – W. Somerset Maugham

    I think that about sums up our society pretty well! We are consumed by hypocrisy. Its our nations favorite pastime after moral policing….the two go hand in hand really!Recommend

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