Lahore shooting: Some questions

Published: January 31, 2011
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The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution's Foreign Policy Studies Programme

The writer was a Ford Scholar at the Programme in Arms Control, Disarmament and International Security at UIUC (1997) and a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution's Foreign Policy Studies Programme

Two boys shot dead by Raymond Davis, an American national, in the Mozang area of Lahore; one biker crushed to death by a speeding US consulate vehicle that arrives on the scene presumably to rescue Davis, who tries to escape but is captured. The consulate vehicle escapes after overrunning the unfortunate biker.

The incident has left a trail of three bodies and several questions.

Who is Davis — accredited diplomat or a civilian contracted by the US consulate for ‘technical advice’, a term that can cover a broad range of activities? Why was he carrying a pistol, a Glock 17 I am told, which is a 9mm semi-automatic weapon that packs the punch with 17 rounds in a standard magazine. It is used by pros and Davis does seem like one.

Why did Davis try to run away from the scene after displaying the calm ability to shoot a pistol with a steady hand, get out of the car, make a video of the bodies, and talk to someone on the wireless?

From what’s known so far, it does not appear that the killed boys intended to shoot Davis. They were carrying local-made pistols (terrible choice); one didn’t have bullets in it, while the other had five rounds of local ammo, another bad amateur choice. There is no indication that they tried to fire at Davis. It is interesting to note where Davis fired from, in what direction and where the boys took the bullets.

Davis fired from inside his car, slightly above the steering wheel and towards the right. That would mean the boys were parked ahead of his car, probably close to the right edge of the bonnet. Not exactly the right place if you want to shoot down a driver. Most of the bullets, it appears from the autopsy, entered their bodies from the back — that would mean they were facing away from the shooter, or were trying to escape at the time they were shot down. If this is correct then, at least at the moment Davis shot them, they were not a threat to his life. Itchy fingers perhaps?

One source told me the ammo he used was hollow-point; another says it was ballpoint. With hollow-point the boys stood no chance at all. The round enters the body and flattens, causing terrible tissue damage.

Glock pistols have a two-stage trigger safety mechanism because there is no external safety catch. The weapon will fire when the trigger is depressed normally beyond the first stage afforded by the internal trigger safety mechanism. Why did he fire 7 shots if the idea was to incapacitate? Since Davis has claimed self-defence he will have to prove that his life was in grave danger when he shot the boys.

People are angry. There is a sense, not entirely wrong, that Americans act haughty, even though the blame for this must go to Pakistani governments. If the governments fail to observe the protocols, too eager to roll out the red carpet even for lower ranking American officials, one can’t blame the Americans for taking Pakistan for granted.

Consider the attitude of the public affairs officers at the US embassy and the consulate in Lahore. They have refused to ID Davis. Instead of helping in investigating the killing of three Pakistanis, the US embassy has now demanded that this guy be immediately released. And pray, how and why, unless all these questions are answered? The government should clarify when, how, why, and if at all, a foreign national can carry a weapon? What exactly is the status of this man, his ID and the nature of his work here? What is the protocol for the movement of American nationals, whether in official or personal capacity? Are the Americans using SOPs for their protection that may violate local laws? If so, why?

The government should set up a website, giving information on all legal and other questions thrown up by this violent incident. It must also tell the people why the US embassy has made such a demand. The US government cannot spring the guy until all legal issues are settled. Neither can the federal and Punjab governments afford to let him walk away just like that.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 31st, 2011.

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Reader Comments (78)

  • Tauseef
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:49AM

    Whether his life was in grave danger or not, he was approached by people who carried guns and this gives him the benefit of self-defense.

    Lets just imagine he was a Pakistani. Would anybody have raised an eyebrow at him in a similar situation? People would be happy that we have two less robbers to deal with.Recommend

  • Naveed Awan
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:57AM

    I must admit that it is quite rare to read a well written article in the Pakistani press these days.
    I am surprised, pleasantly I must add.

    Thanks.Recommend

  • Shams Zaman
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:18AM

    This is the test for Pakistani government. If the judiciary handles this case and Mr Davis proves his innocence then it is fine. But if he is just permitted to walk away, then I would say that even stray dogs enjoy more status and respect by the Americans than average Pakistani citizens.
    P.S for Mr Tauseef. He has so quickly identified the robbers. He must also be happy over the fate of two brothers who were brutally killed by mob on the pretext of robbers. He must also condone the murder of Salman Taseer because he was also killed on the pretext of protecting the honour of Prophet. He should also suggest the same course of action to Pakistani diplomats serving in Washington. What a pity and shame that we have lost our sense of honour and judgement to white skin for so cheap. Recommend

  • rehan
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:56AM

    Give me 5 Ejaz Bhai!!!!..:))Recommend

  • SSA
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:26AM

    How do you know that, Tauseef? Are you an eye-witness? How do you know the deceased were robbers? By what we know at this moment, those ‘robbers’ must really suck at their job, trying to ‘rob’ someone in a car behind them presenting their backs to him. Well, they’ve now been schooled, let’s put it that way.

    Why can’t our public at large learn to wait till the dust settles on this matter before shooting from the hip? ( no pun ) Let the court decide if it was self defense or not. Unfortunately you sound just like the kind of people who had made up their mind in the case of poor Salman Taseer – issuing your final judgment as if you alone know the truth. Settle down, dude. There are A LOT of questions to be answered here, not the least the one about the third casualty who was, by all accounts, wasn’t even a threat to anybody.Recommend

  • marc
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:42AM

    This is a diplomatic disaster for the U.S. yet they are not making the slightest effort to mitigate it. They want Mr Davis returned to them immediately and unconditionally. Why are they resorting to such desperate hardball tactics? Wouldn’t the ISI like to know. I think Mr Davis is in for a very rough time.Recommend

  • Majid Urrehman
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:43AM

    Tauseef. Build some sense and then try to use it as common.Recommend

  • andy
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:47AM

    Yeh right. Why would any American fear for his life in PAKISTAN? Where the assassins are feted with roses and the main export is death and hatred.
    The answer for all this easy, all American and all American money should leave these savages to the fate. We are not wasting this kind of money on Somalia, why waste billions on a country that hates America and Americans?

    The ” boys ” the author refers to had pockets filled with loot from previous victims. Arresting a man for murder in Pakistan is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500. The Pak Gov is no doubt looking for an under the table payment, as always.
    I have a great idea, let’s start with a one way ticket back to Pakistan for all paks in the USA. Let them enjoy to the full the Islamic paradise they love so fervently. Given the contribution of Pakistanis to science literature and civilization who would notice?Recommend

  • Isme
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:58AM

    Other web postings say the two armed “boys” followed the american after he withdrew money from a bank atm machine. sounds like the boys brandished their unlicensed local-made pistols at the american and he defended himself. so the fact remains that two armed “boys” targeted the american for his money. regardless of country, any reasonable person would fear for their life if targeted by two armed agressors.Recommend

  • Blithe
    Jan 31, 2011 - 3:21AM

    This is the best article I have read on the subject!

    You have said all that I have wanted to say! Recommend

  • Blithe
    Jan 31, 2011 - 3:27AM

    @Tauseef: Tauseef, let me guess, you are a Pakistani- American. The primary function of Pakistan – as a state – right now is to look after Pakistanis in Pakistan. There may be a backlash on Pakistani-Americans but that has to be of secondary importance.

    And you are worng about people raising an eyebrow. It is rather akward for anyone to kill somebody in Lahore (I know the city, I live in it) — there are rules of civilised living and most of us live by them.

    We CANNOT sell Pakistan wholesale to these cowboys, especially private sercurity firm “affliates”, like Mr. Davis (if that is his correct name) need to be held accountable for their actions. Recommend

  • Sana
    Jan 31, 2011 - 3:57AM

    Every evidence is going against this person who’s name is not even Reymond Davis and the US embassy is not willing to disclose his identity. If a Pakistani had shot a robber in the slums of NY in self defense with an unlicensed sophisticated weapon… well not even a single American had said that good, at least we have two less robbers to deal with. One doesn’t need much intelligence to understand that this story is made up by the killer and that too in a hurry. There are so many loop holes in it and US embassy has played a vital role in adding more suspicion.
    And yes, it is correct that if USA is taking us for granted, it is because we have allowed them to do so. I really hope that the actual story come in front of us soon though it’s a wishful thinking. Recommend

  • Ahmed
    Jan 31, 2011 - 4:57AM

    Tauseef had definitely been listening to foreign news. Approached by people who had a gun on them which did not even have any bullets in it. Also approached does not mean they threatened him in any manner. Guy who can shot so many times and calmly get out of the car to make videos does not sound like an ordinary foreign agency worker, it seems as though as if he had been prepared for a such situation. Why did he get out to make a video? does not sound like a guy who was scared and shot in self defence.
    Also one of the boys was carrying a gun with him because recently his brother had been killed and his life was in danger because he had an influential role in a pending court case. If you actually watched the local news and seen his poor family mourning, you would be aware of this.
    Unfortunately in a few days time he will be handed to USA government and those three boys will be announced criminals. But hey people like Aafia Siddiqui will continue to rot in an American prison.
    Shame on our leaders, they will probably receive a good check so it’s all fine.Recommend

  • Ahmed
    Jan 31, 2011 - 6:13AM

    Approached by people who had a gun on them which did not even have any bullets in it. Also approached does not mean they threatened him in any manner. Guy who can shot so many times and calmly get out of the car to make videos does not sound like an ordinary foreign agency worker, it seems as though as if he had been prepared for a such situation. Why did he get out to make a video, does not sound like a guy was scared and shot in self defence.
    Also one of the boys was carrying a gun with him because recently his brother had been killed and his life in danger because he had an influential role in a pending court case. If you actually watched the local news and seen his poor family mourning, you would be aware of this.
    Unfortunately in a few days time he will be handed to USA government and those three boys will be announced criminals. But hey people like Aafia Siddiqui will continue to rot in an American prison.
    Shame on our leaders, they will probably receive a good check so it’s all fine.Recommend

  • URTruth
    Jan 31, 2011 - 6:26AM

    @ Tauseef: Is there any indication anyone approached him? If they did, they must have done so moving backwards. read the account again.Recommend

  • Nauman
    Jan 31, 2011 - 6:58AM

    Covered the topic very sensibly. So far people are just emotional. I think the questions raised by you should be resolved before taking any further action.Recommend

  • ZQ
    Jan 31, 2011 - 8:23AM

    very sad, Tauseef..the fact that you have branded them ‘robbers’ without any evidence or proof…all we know is that they were carrying weapons which were holstered…pray explain, how that makes them robbers?? The guy shot them, repeatedly may i add, from inside his vehicle, and then got out to make a video!!! we don’t even see a sign of aggression from the poor souls, let alone them taking anything away from the murderer, which would have been the case had it been a robberyRecommend

  • concerned
    Jan 31, 2011 - 8:50AM

    I’m sure that every American stationed in Pakistan (and the Mid-East in general) has, in the back of his or her mind, the kidnapping, ransom, and decapitation via web-cam of news correspondent Daniel Pearl. Having armed escorts for all embassy personnel simply isn’t affordable or reasonable. Instead of writing a sensationalized article that asks more questions than it provides answers, perhaps it would be best to wait until valid descriptions of the event surface.

    Although, I admit, the circumstances of where the men were shot (in the back) is suspect, they were carrying weapons and had just robbed a local civilian – according to other reports. In a fast paced scenario, such as this depicts, fearing a web-broadcast kidnapping and decapitation, could you control how many times you pulled the trigger? Who said that his intent was to incapacitate. If I feared that someone wanted to take me to some cell and saw my head off like some medieval barbarian, I would consider the threat and person completely capable, or capable to shoot back, until they stopped moving. Perhaps Pakistan should provide security escorts for embassy personnel! Why is it foreign countries’ responsibility to provide security within another nations boarders? The United States provides Pakistan with a ton of foreign and defense aid annually and are fighting the war on terrorism in Pakistan, which is providing a safe-haven for terrorists. In the grand scope of international relations and security, most would interpret that Pakistan is actually quite unsafe; but yet foreign countries have to be there to keep tabs and attempt to control a situation which the people and government of Pakistan don’t really care to manage.

    I’m just playing devils advocate to balance out the bias in this article. Why did this man’s car have bullet holes in it and the back windshield shot out if these motorcyclists were so innocent? There are also reports that he had a Beretta not a Glock. Get your facts straight and take into consideration the fear people have in Pakistan of being kidnapped or if they are thought to be an American. If you don’t like it, stop taking their money and kick them out!Recommend

  • Oz
    Jan 31, 2011 - 8:52AM

    The Americans truly believe they getaway with itRecommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 31, 2011 - 9:04AM

    Very disappointing commentary and probably meant to appease your right of the centre readers which have been in full force on ET demanding from hanging Raymond to keeping him incarcerated for life and lynching him !!

    I thought based on your previous articles and your experience in being a seasoned columnist that you would understand the sub-judice nature of the case and wouldn’t open up your own court.

    All hearsay comments, all third party un-validated evidence and quick to conclude the case and pass the guilty verdict ..?

    How on earth could leading columnists so openly and blatantly make commentary on the exact nature of this case involving 4 lives ( 3 lost) by peudo-scholars is beyond me.

    You are making commentary as if either you were sitting next to Raymond or you had a chance to analyse the forensic nature of evidence (that takes weeks to collect and months to analyse) before it is available for the relevant investigative and judicial authorities.

    I strongly feel that you could not resist the temptation of “cashing in” (Colloquialy-speaking) on this hot topic and had to come up with your 2 cents regardless of how shallow, sub-judice and immature it reads.

    Haris ChaudhryRecommend

  • Salman
    Jan 31, 2011 - 9:10AM

    Very well written article!
    but i believe Pakistan govt wont be able to keep him in custody for long
    maximum USA would say we will start legal proceedings against him in USA but release him and i think we will release bcz you cant say NO to your GODFATHER! Recommend

  • Safwan
    Jan 31, 2011 - 10:15AM

    “Neither can the federal and Punjab governments afford to let him walk away just like that”
    but they will!Recommend

  • Shahida Kazi
    Jan 31, 2011 - 10:19AM

    I would advise everyone to read the book the Reluctant fundamentalist by Mohsin Hamid.The American protoganist in the story,to whom the narrator tells his story and the circumstances in which the hero confronted him bear an uncanny resemblance to Raymond Davis..I am sure it will help the readers to understand more about the identity and motives of Davis.Recommend

  • Aamir
    Jan 31, 2011 - 10:28AM

    One of the anchor raised a question on TV that if an ISI operative would have killed two individuals in America with his non registered pistol, the American media would have grilled him till now. We have already sold our country and the incidents will not affect the secret deals signed.Recommend

  • hameeda
    Jan 31, 2011 - 10:45AM

    @ Tauseef, well just imagine had the same thing happened in Newyork, where a Pakistani embassy staff not only shot and killed 2 thugs but also embassy\s car ran over one innocent pedestrian …. imagine the headlines in the newspaper, a Pakistani terrorist caught red handed ?!?! and Pakistan would have been labelled as a terrorist state ….. Aafia Siddiqui is in jail for life for an attempt to kill US nationals whereas this gentleman has killed atleast two ….. so what should be the verdict?!?! I say hang him !!Recommend

  • Jan 31, 2011 - 11:07AM

    Davis was certainly not a simple consulate employee but a Pro in gun firing probably CIA or Military.
    if you see the front windscreen of the car you would get an idea that how close bullets fired were and mind you pistols are not that easy to fried from while sitting in card over the steering.

    now coming to issue, if those were robbers then he certainly did the right thing but issue is he had a unlicensed pistol.

    how to resolve it: if dead people were robbers, then US embassy should send an apology to govt for violating law (unlicensed pistol) and pay compensation to the family of the deceased who was killed by their second when it rolled over him.Recommend

  • Jawad+Iqbal+Jawad
    Jan 31, 2011 - 11:35AM

    Facts gathered through so far investigations and witnesses go against the killer. If he is handed over to US because of any unfair pressure it means that we are no free free and independent. Civil and military leadership must ensure the independence and sovereignty of the country. Recommend

  • Jawad+Iqbal+Jawad
    Jan 31, 2011 - 11:40AM

    @Tauseef:
    Hats off to your point of view. It is not prejudices but the facts and conditions which shows the innocence of those young boys and this killer was also drunk. In addition to the intoxication by wine his mind and mind was full of the superiority complex. Recommend

  • salim
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:38PM

    The ball is in Punjab Govt court! Lets see what they do!Recommend

  • wowemkay
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:43PM

    The author has just established almost undeniably, that the Yankee’s life was NOT in danger. He certainly does not look like any diplomat I’ve ever seen, even haughty, overweight and shabbily dressed ones! There is no reason for either the confused US Embassy or the scared Pakistan government to try and withhold the facts: his passport, his visa, his bravado in driving in Mozang without a driver…even if we accept the fake license plate as a cheap and illegal ‘safety’ ploy.

    Yes, Pakis do kill, maim, and rape their kin like its going out of style but that doesn’t make it right. An American doing that in a charged anti-American environ is of course just what the hypocrites and the other kind (are there any?) want to make the kind of points they long to make.He’s bad news, just as the locals are but if thee’s a piece of bad news we can fix without going to CJ Iftikhar Chaudhry let’s just do it if only so the poor CJ can carry on dealing with much, much bigger and incredibly more rotten fish. Recommend

  • ashok sai
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:50PM

    Let us assume, Davis knowingly fired at them and also they are innocent civilians. What is the motive behind the killings ?Recommend

  • Yasir
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:51PM

    @Tauseef, Just imagine if he was a Pakistani in US killing two US citizens (Robbers) while acting in self defense with similar circumstances, Would people be happy there or all hell will break loose?Recommend

  • Shakir Lakhani
    Jan 31, 2011 - 12:51PM

    We ourselves are to blame. In this country, men can get away with murder (by paying off the heirs of the victims). This guy only did what our feudals are doing all the time. I think, ultimately, the U.S. government will pay substantial amounts to the victims’ heirs to forgive this man.Recommend

  • Ovayce
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:01PM

    This is BS talking about self defence. If people start calling it self-defence for the murders they carry out, then we will be seeing people shot down in every nook and corner of every city of Pakistan. All we know that people have lot of licenced weapons with them for one or other reason. If this would be termed as self-defence then we should be ready to see more Pakistanis dieing in the streets for this defence. Recommend

  • parvez
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:09PM

    Very rightly said that there are too many unanswered questions.
    It is the Americans duty to do what ever is necessary to save one of their own. Outcome will depend on how or government behaves and our track record is not good.Recommend

  • ed
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:12PM

    @andy:
    might as well hand over davis to the taliban, then all 3 of them can enjoy life in paradise.
    davis hasnt done anything wrong…not to deserve paradise..rite :PRecommend

  • Jan 31, 2011 - 3:16PM

    Excellent article. Many questions asked but who’ll answer them?Recommend

  • Malik Nasir
    Jan 31, 2011 - 3:23PM

    Nice input !Recommend

  • Kamran A.
    Jan 31, 2011 - 3:26PM

    @haris chaudry
    Are you serious? Did you just get through watching some old episode of “law and order”, throwing around legal terms like “hearsay” and “third party unvalidated evidence”, were you at the scene yourself that you can discount eyewitnesses as hearsay? Even if we pretend that people like you want to play devil’s advocate to make sure that no one jumps to prejudicial conclusions, let me reiterate some “facts” that are not in question. Raymond shot and killed two boys without getting out of his car, he himself was not shot anywhere on his person, neither has any evidence come to light that he was “shot at” period, he then gets out of his car and makes a video of his victims, then he tries to flee the scene, these are just the bare minimum indisputable “facts” of the incident based on several eyewitnesses and preliminary accounts of the incident provided by the police to the media. Your own personal bias and loathing for your own people and society is evident from your comments, why else would you categorically ignore all “eyewitness” accounts of the scene, is it because the eyewitnesses are Pakistanis along with the deceased and the shooter an American? Recommend

  • Khawaja Faraz
    Jan 31, 2011 - 4:19PM

    @SSA:
    Beautiful…atelast some san mens are thereRecommend

  • Sana
    Jan 31, 2011 - 4:30PM

    @Haris Chaudhry:
    Guess you should read the article again. The writer has raised questions on the information he has collected and not given a verdict. He has used the word “source” and that “he was told” (this is how journalists work) But after reading your comment its quite clear that you are ignoring all the evidences and eyewitness accounts. You like it or not but the case will be built on these accounts.Recommend

  • M. H. Hussain
    Jan 31, 2011 - 4:33PM

    @Tauseef:

    I share you point of view Tauseef…But these yanks are bigger sinners……let’s give them a taste of their own medicine….Recommend

  • Jan 31, 2011 - 5:23PM

    If this man has to be freed (which shouldn’t be), then we want Ms. Aafia Siddique in return.Recommend

  • SB
    Jan 31, 2011 - 5:36PM

    Great piece!
    Target practice, perhaps?Recommend

  • A.Salma
    Jan 31, 2011 - 6:05PM

    Mr. Haider, very disapointing article. Your whole argument is based on hearsay! U dont have any proof of guilt or innocence Mr. Davis, but u and the most of the posters have already convicted him “guilty”!
    If commandos assigned to protect Governor Taseer can kill him in cold blood, in broad day light in capital Islamabad, while the other security guard just stood there with indifference (i am sure they had smile on their faces) , do u really expect a hated American to walk/drive around unamed in Lahore? For what its worth, anybody whos can afford it, pakistanis either carry more deadly weapons or have armed guards with ak-47 all over pakistan. Get Real!Recommend

  • PakAm
    Jan 31, 2011 - 7:10PM

    Pakistan will be forced to let him go or will face denial in $$$ aid. Google Georgia (the country) diplomat who was driving drunk and killed a 16 years old girl in Kensington, Washington DC in 1997. He had diplomatic immunity but his government waived it after threat from the US that there will no U$ annual assistance if they did not do so and he was convicted and jailed. If Pakistan does not release him the whole Pakistan will suffer (Jis ki laathy us key bhains).Recommend

  • Qasim
    Jan 31, 2011 - 7:25PM

    People who are calling for the deal affia wid raymond need to rethink .. the whole idea of dis article is out of reality .. the reality every pakistani dusnt want to see… when our leaders go there to beg we dunt take it seriously ..our lives and our country is no longer ours, we are living on money of deirz.. we are badly dipped in debt frm our head to foot ..we are nt even liable to question them fr nt being equal … beggars dunt ask questions to there masters…Recommend

  • Qasim
    Jan 31, 2011 - 7:29PM

    when a group of ppl tears apart or burns apart 3 men, for stealing just a water tap n everyone dusnt show ny care ,, so y nw? we pakistanis r living wid dual standards..Recommend

  • Humanity
    Jan 31, 2011 - 8:54PM

    @Yuzafzai “we want Ms. Aafia Siddique in return.”

    The US tax payers say good riddance. By all means, please take her back and then watch as entertainment, what is done with daughters of the qaum.

    Paraded naked in the streets, attacked with acid, gang raped and yet declared guilty for asking for the ‘enjoyment’, wife’s hands chopped off for giving birth to a girl, and on and on ..

    The people have become worse than the pre-Islamic barbarians. No wonder there is no sense of right or wrong. Even the jungle has some rules. But not the Paki land ..Recommend

  • Srinath
    Jan 31, 2011 - 8:54PM

    Most of the comments are dripping with cynicism. Understandably so, considering that the previous President claimed credit for earning precious foreign exchange by handing over Pakistani citizens bypassing the legal process.Recommend

  • Asad Shairani
    Jan 31, 2011 - 8:59PM

    Brilliantly put Ejaz Sb. As I’ve said before, you’re one of the rare sane voices in the Pakistani media!Recommend

  • Jan 31, 2011 - 9:04PM

    I think the complete array of questions sharply raised by Ejaz Haider. We will be in a better position to comment on the incidence after we got the answers of above-mentioned questions. till that moment, we must be patient and let the authorities do their workRecommend

  • Raza
    Jan 31, 2011 - 9:19PM

    Valid questions indeed…..Recommend

  • Jan 31, 2011 - 9:32PM

    A great article!

    Thorough and comprehensive. The case should be dealt on the basis of humanity and NOT nationalities.Recommend

  • Azhar
    Feb 1, 2011 - 1:01AM

    We all are blaming Americans for killings..they did what they are here for. Question is who authorized them to operate freely. We all are very furious about this sad event in which three life were lost but what about all those innocent poeple killed in Drone attacks every day. Recommend

  • zeruk
    Feb 1, 2011 - 1:13AM

    well done Mr Ejaz Hyder,you have seen the issue with professional approach.Recommend

  • Nadeem Ahmed
    Feb 1, 2011 - 3:43AM

    So far nothing is clear, looks all hearsay and lies. Alleged killer did one very wise move, that he took photographs of dead boys, otherwise bodies might have been repalced. There is one truth in whole story, that there is no truth.Recommend

  • Adnan
    Feb 1, 2011 - 3:49AM

    I don’t understand why Raymond Davis is such an important issue right now. We have much more important stuff to worry about. Why can’t we wait for the courts to make their decision without branding Raymond Davis as a cold-blooded murderer from Blackwater. Remember guys, as per our law, he’s innocent till proven guilty.

    I think it’s just another outlet for people to rant on about how America is the root cause of all our failures. I mean seriously, the very next day after his arrest, people were out on the streets in Mazang protesting for him to be hanged. Why was there no such procession against target killings or terrorism or when Ahmed Omar Shaikh was caught. Recommend

  • Abbas Khan
    Feb 1, 2011 - 4:22AM

    What I have learnt and understood from your article and reading many comments is that, Pakistan is most peaceful place on earth, where no crime has occurred in centuries. Most of the people do not carry arms, if someone does, most probably thats a toy gun or if real one then it has no bullets. People are very nice to foreigners and love them so much that they take them to their homes and serve them with tasty foods and live entertainment. They have rendered these services to Chinese and other nationals, unfortunately they have not found any American so far. America has done so much for us, but have never asked anything in return. Therefore our young boys keep on looking for Americans to thank them. Only American they found turned out to be a trigger happy Yankee, who did not understand the motive of our innocent boys, instead he killed our boys without asking whether their guns have bullets or not. In a city, where people surrender their valuables and lives with smile, how come someone dare to do the opposite. God bless Pakistan and curse on those who disturb our way of life.Recommend

  • karachiite
    Feb 1, 2011 - 7:49PM

    The problem is not Reymond Davis but it is countless other john smith(s) , mark peter(s) (or whatever common alias they are using) roaming on Pakistan’s streets steps must be taken to curb their presence and haughtiness Recommend

  • Copper
    Feb 1, 2011 - 11:22PM

    unexpectedly pleasant surprise to read a well written pieceRecommend

  • muhammad aamir mazhar
    Feb 2, 2011 - 8:41AM

    where are the sympathies of NGO’s and our humman rights activist asma jahngir and ansar burni….i think these all humman rights are for european union countries who funds them just to unrest our country…this is a slap on all humman rights related people not only in pakistan but all over the world that they can’t raise a single word for the victims they only know how to sell our country respect for personal benifits. .Recommend

  • SA
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:04AM

    @Tauseef: Apparently it was he who was approaching the two, shooting them in the back suggests that. No wonder we deserve such government. Like masses, like rulers. Slaves of the west!!!!Recommend

  • SA
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:23AM

    @A.Salma: What exactly are you trying to justify? The amercian carrying weapon or the american killing the two boys? Isn’t it rather ironical that the poor foreigner was so freaked out at the idea of being in the land of pure that he was made to carry a pistol and even went to the point of shooting the two out of paranoia, yet he had all the time in the world to take pictures of the dead. Where did his fear vanish all of a sudden?Recommend

  • SA
    Feb 2, 2011 - 10:30AM

    @Adnan: Look like you dont keep yourself updated :> There are protests on the streets of Pakistan day in day out as marching out on the streets is the thing we’re best at! There have been processions related to sialkot incident, afia’s sentence, taseer’s murder, arrests of shias in karachi, dr’s killing, what not? As for the people who came out on the street that day they were somehow related to the three deceased. It’s their right to protest! Recommend

  • Sobriquet
    Feb 2, 2011 - 8:32PM

    @Humanity: you state that people have become worse than pre-Islamic barbarians.

    As all major religions are older than Islam, you are saying that they are all barbarians!Recommend

  • Aamir+Ali
    Feb 2, 2011 - 9:03PM

    To the people speculating on what if a Pakistani had done the same act in New York…I say the act would have been investigated by police and if indeed self-defense, charges would have been dropped. It would certainly not have turned into a circus with hot debates in US Congress and processions to hand the Pakistani in public.

    I find it amusing commentators getting hot under the collar in this case and demanding that Davis be hanged, even before any investigation or trial !Recommend

  • DavidSalmon
    Feb 3, 2011 - 12:33AM

    Perhaps someone should track down the eyewitness described by Kamran Shafi in his Feb. 1st column:

    “What I myself saw on the very day of the shooting, about two hours after the event, was the interview of a young man off the street, conducted by a loud and vociferous channel. When asked what he had seen the man said: “pistol” (“The two motorcyclists drew their pistols to rob the foreigner [using the near-pejorative term , or Whitey] who shot them dead”). This was repeated twice in a period of 30 or so minutes and then taken off air. This is what I saw and heard myself. It is pertinent to note that that young man has not been seen, nor heard from, again. Neither has any newspaper quoted what he said on record.” http://www.dawn.com/2011/02/01/cutting-off-the-nose.htmlRecommend

  • Farooq
    Feb 3, 2011 - 1:37AM

    @ Tauseef:

    Respected Scholar…. they were shot in the back. Don’t you get it? Grow up man. Everything’s based on facts, not assumptions.Recommend

  • DavidSalmon
    Feb 4, 2011 - 3:31AM

    @Farooq:

    I spent my career as a deputy attorney general handling criminal cases on appeal in California, and was professionally acquainted with the distinctions between “fact” and “assumptions.” You say they were shot in the back. How do you know this? Did you see it? Why do you think the wounds you may have seen were entry wounds and not exit wounds? What else did you see or hear? As you can judge, the line between real fact and facile assumptions is not always clear to me from news reports.

    I also am acquainted with the law of self-defence as practiced in California, and, mostly likely, in Pakistan also, since our penal codes are both from the same source. The law allows a man (or woman) to act upon appearances, how it seems to him or her at the time, but at his peril if a jury or judge finds that his belief he had to act in self-defence was not reasonable, even when viewed from his perspective. If, from his perspective, it was reasonable for him to believe they were threatening his life, then he was lawfully entitled to use deadly force to protect himself. Moreover, in California, he would get the benefit of any reasonable doubt.

    I have seen newspaper reports sufficient to justify any outcome from hanging, drawing and quartering to release and apology. I suggest you should examine your sources more carefully before condemning anyone of murder.Recommend

  • Asad Shairani
    Feb 4, 2011 - 3:32PM

    @DavidSalmon:
    You make very valid points. But just like the demands to hang Davis are illegitimate, the US’ demand to release him without respecting the local law are also insensitive. The questions you raise in your comment (first para) can only be answered once the due process and investigation takes place. Davis is innocent till proven guilty – but the matter is very serious and has to be managed carefully. Recommend

  • Waqas
    Feb 4, 2011 - 3:48PM

    Let the courts find out the truth, decide and punish the guilty! Recommend

  • DavidSalmon
    Feb 5, 2011 - 1:22AM

    Due process takes time, and it would be better for all if this boil could be lanced early. I think the idea of a trade of Dr. Aafia Siddique for Davis perhaps could do that, were it done quickly. Recommend

  • ghamiz
    Feb 5, 2011 - 4:23PM

    so many questions on David’s case, i have one: how would our govt had supported a Pakistani killing two robbers in NY in self defence?Recommend

  • Khawaja Faraz
    Feb 7, 2011 - 2:37PM

    please also ask the authorities from where this hand gun that raymond was carrying came into Pakistan…ask raymond it will open a yet new black hole….Recommend

  • Saleem Adil
    Feb 16, 2011 - 5:20PM

    @Humanity
    I do not know where you are from
    But go and see USA. There are more gang rapes than in Pakistan. Ask women from USA who work in military. In USA, you can not go into Harlem area and come back safe and sound.
    @ andy
    There is no evidence that the 2 men took out their guns or threatened this American. Carrying licensed weapon is no crime anywhere. And looters and robbers do not carry pistols in holsters and so obvious ammo belts. Yes, and ask all Pakistanis to leave USA who are professionals and are tax payers and a good number of them are better off than most Americans. Recommend

  • Saleem Adil
    Feb 16, 2011 - 5:28PM

    David Salmon
    If those two men were actually robbers then we are with Raymond Davis, we will not support robbers or looter; may they be our own people of aliens
    However, the case should be seen carefully and honestly. That is right, a person has a right to defend himself if threatened. But it is not a threat if someone passes from near you carrying a weapon. The threat should be very obvious. The thing which goes against Davis is that in self defense, you do not shoot the attackers 16 times.
    And please let me tell you that our concerned authority including the forensics are expert enough to tell an entry wound from an exit one. Many of our professionals (including doctors) who were trained and educated in Pakistan are working in USA in high placesRecommend

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