Kayani’s doctrine of escalation

Published: November 13, 2010

The writer is director at the South Asia Free Media Association, Lahore khaled.ahmed@tribune.com.pk

Should we adjudge the ‘intent’ of India while framing our military defence, or should we look at India’s ‘capacity’ to harm Pakistan? Intent is when India says it wants a stable Pakistan and wants normal, good-neighbourly relations with it. Capacity is the actual capability of the Indian army to harm Pakistan, its induction of new weapon systems and the upgradation of the systems it has. Our army chief, General Kayani, adheres to the second ‘realist’ assessment. He says he will frame Pakistan’s defensive strategy in line with India’s acquisition of Pakistan-specific weapons.

On Tuesday night, November 9, 2010 Dunya TV had anchor Najam Sethi saying that General Kayani’s doctrine opened Pakistan to an arms race that Pakistan simply could not afford and that the ‘doctrine’ was a new concept in Pakistan’s confrontation with India. Anchor Dr Moeed Pirzada, a well-read person among our TV commentators, said that the ‘realist’ doctrine of General Kayani was the widely accepted yardstick of defence response among nations. It was much safer to study the war capability developed by the enemy state than to pay heed to the peaceful ‘intent’ expressed by it.

The doctrine was embraced by the US in its confrontation with the Soviet Union. It paid off because the latter also tacitly accepted it in the bilateral arms race at the global level. Finally, the Soviet Union quit the field of military competition in the face of President Reagan’s planned escalation under the rubric of ‘space wars’ initiative and was made to disintegrate later by its other internal contradictions. This happened after the ‘disarmament’ efforts by the two super-rivals had reached an advanced stage, delineating the nuclear status quo and precluding accidental nuclear conflict as far as possible. India and Pakistan are not even there as yet.

The Soviet Union simply could not keep up with the capacity of America’s free economy to innovate in the development of weapons. The totalitarian vision of Lenin, which rejected competition by calling it ‘economy of waste’, was gone by the time Brezhnev came to power in the Soviet Union in the 1970s along with much more realistic regional leaders like Gorbachev in Leningrad and Yeltsin in Moscow. The Soviet economy simply could not keep up with the new advances that competition in the US market had made possible. Where does one place Pakistan in this ‘realist’ military paradigm?

India’s economy, its high growth rate and its ability to indigenise military technology at a far higher scale than Pakistan, will go on compelling Pakistan to match India by inducting technologies it does not own. The ratio of its defence spending to the GDP is already too high to sustain. The arms race with India — including the acquisition of nuclear weapons — has damaged Pakistan; and the doctrine of escalation is already somewhat comparable to an imaginary acceptance of it by Cuba vis-à-vis America.

India has always thought of dictating Pakistan’s military build-up till Pakistan can no longer sustain it without affecting the quality of life of the common man. India ‘supported’ Pakistan’s nuclear programme when Pakistan’s growth rate was hitting rock bottom as opposed to India’s record high growth rate at the time of Pokhran. Pakistan did Kargil when its economy was almost belly-up, once again indicating the lack of realism among its military leadership. Now that its internal situation causes alarm across the globe, is it right to articulate this ‘realist’ policy of escalation?

Pakistan has always known that it can’t match India in military capability. That is why it adopted the asymmetric approach. India had the same kind of problem vis-à-vis China but it ignored the doctrine that General Kayani has embraced in his India-centric strategy. It also did not adopt the asymmetric war approach against China. Pakistan has come to grief after half a century of using non-state actors against India. It is isolated internationally and is under attack from the very non-state actors it once nurtured and patronised.

It is time we changed the paradigm of defence in Pakistan and returned to the normalcy of trade and trade routes. Pakistan’s revisionism vis-à-vis India must give way to compulsions of self-correction; and Pakistan must become open to international finance as an important adjunct to South Asia’s rising economy.

Published in The Express Tribune, November 14th, 2010.

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Reader Comments (122)

  • parvez
    Nov 14, 2010 - 12:44AM

    An important topic handled very well.
    The approach suggested is what a rational thinking intelligent person with a broader view point would subscribe to.
    Sadly we re-enforce failure with failure.Recommend

  • Nov 14, 2010 - 1:14AM

    Its only the potential for economic growth and urge of other nations to business with a state that acts as a effective defence. It wasn’t a great battle that brought China on par with the US, it was its economic might. The US ignored a nuclear capable India from the mid 1970s, and not until recently, acknowledging its economic potential is it bending over backwards to insure space for American exports. Brazil was a basket case of an economy as its military junta came within days of nuclear tests. Its recent economic progress sees a two term president leaving office with an over 70% approval rating, with every country in the world lining up to enter her market. We on the other hand claim that as a “nuclear power” located in a strategic region deserve global attention against the evil Indian designs. India is winning the propaganda battle and at the end of the day if things dont change global opinion will drastically shift against Pakistan, an escalating defence budget and international interest payments will doom our citizens into a cycle of poverty and inequality. For years we have claimed that our nuclear deterrence has made our defences impregnable, yet people are dying on the streets and those who live are crippled by the economy. How does a debt ridden, uneducated, inflation stricken economy help to defend the state? They are much smarter and economically efficient ways of defending our country. The current doctrine is unsustainable.Recommend

  • Raj
    Nov 14, 2010 - 3:57AM

    India does not try to compete with China the way Pakistan tries to compete with India.

    Reason? India is a traditional nation state. A traditional nation state’s main goal, if not only goal is proomtion of welfare of people living within its borders.

    Pakistan is an ideology. Not a traditional nation state. Pakistan may have trappings of a nation sate, but it is still only an ideology.Recommend

  • srinivasan
    Nov 14, 2010 - 9:55AM

    An excellent explanation of realities. But till the following issues are fixed, Pak army is not going to move an inch from its doctrine
    1. Army control over civilian govt
    2. Business involvement of Pak army and retired army personnel for their own benefits
    3. religious involvement in state affairs
    4. enormously corrupt politicians
    5. King size ego of Pakistan and Pak army that one muslim soldier is equivalent of 10 hindu solidiers inspite of the hiding recd in 1965, 1971 and kargil diplomatically, politically and financially
    6. Armu’s policy of covering its own people inspite of their colossal blunders

    I understand that Pak army generals and majors’ income is more than their equivalent American counterparts. could somebody throw light on thatRecommend

  • Ahmed
    Nov 14, 2010 - 9:57AM

    This article makes logical sense. But CULTURALLY we cannot do this. Because our entire existence is based on the fact that we are “not India”. Despite our obvious Indian ancestry, culture, cuisine, history and language, our goal is to be not-Indian. That means believing that the sole purpose of India is to obliterate Pakistan. We just can’t be close to India and Indians. To do so would mean denying our very rationale for existence. So, such a rapprochment with India would never work.

    AhmedRecommend

  • G.Khan
    Nov 14, 2010 - 10:25AM

    Khalid Ahmed’s assumption is completely wrong. these are te fndamental reasons.

    1) Pakistan dd not invite Soviets to Invade Afghanistan. Afghan war affected both Afghanistan and Pakistan economically.

    2) Pakistan did not Invite America to invade Afghanistan.

    Due to these two invasions by two sperpowers of their time, law and order situation in Pakistan detorietaed. Pakistan fought its fight for existance once against Soviets and now Against USA. Needless to say that we have another enemy on Eastern Borders and 1971 role of India must not be forgotten by people like Khaled Ahmad?

    Therefore, until USA withdraws from this area, no peace will prevail in the region. No nation can trade with other nation until it has threat of existance from that nation. Therefore, until those issues resolved , let’s not tal talk trade. And if they are not resolved with India,then just ignore and forget them. don’t we have China in the north and all those countries in the west to do trade? I don’t know why Khaled is so worried about India? Just let them have fun of their own. But keep defense ready if they try another adventure and answer should be complete destruction, That must be known to them.Thats the only way to avoid any adventurism from any side.Recommend

  • san
    Nov 14, 2010 - 10:55AM

    Free trade with India leading to economic confedration with common currency should be the aim of Pakistan rather than fighting a terrorist war which it can’t win. Giving up terrorist groups is still a far cry for the military establishment which is the defacto policy maker of Pakistan.I think a critical situation of revolt like seen in Bangladesh when hundreds of armymen and their families were killed, which led to it giving up anti India terrorists groups and seizing their billion dollars in Bangladeshi banks will force it to change.Recommend

  • S.Chandrasekaran
    Nov 14, 2010 - 11:14AM

    Pakistan is yet to produce a leader who puts his/her country’s interest first over his/her personal interest and who thinks about future than present. Its health is in worst condition. It requires major operation not just medicines.Recommend

  • Nov 14, 2010 - 12:37PM

    M/s.Srinivasan and Chandrasekaran when you talk of Pakistan, please stand on your feet and not on your heads.

    India never digested the creation of Pakistan and always creates problems with its skulking vocabulary and ‘oh me, misery me’ approach which the USA and UK patronize. India should be ashamed of itself for a milieu of its blunders like Kashmir, Nagas, Tamils, untouchables, human rights and the list goes on.

    Mr. Khaled Ahmed, please leave Mr. Kayani and the Pak Army out of any negative critique. You, Pakistanis and the world knows the quality of our rural civilian leaders with the exception of a handful like the Quaid, Ayub and Bhutto. India is waiting for a chance to attack and occupy Pakistan thus writing it off the global platform. But there are still some die hard patriots who will give their life for the country and defend it against India at all cost. When the day comes that Pakistan like the erstwhile Soviet Union cannot finance anything economically and militarily, then we will see what to do but until then we can teach another lesson to India like 1965 and the Kargil adventure.

    Salams and peace to all on mama terra firma.Recommend

  • MUhammad Saeed Akhter
    Nov 14, 2010 - 2:31PM

    @ Nazir sb, Who wants to rule the rowdy mob? So no harm in trumpeting one’s fife….. good luck with 16 million starving…. Salam and peace to all mama terra firma no doubt…My salamRecommend

  • Rajesh
    Nov 14, 2010 - 3:04PM

    As an indian, we do not want anybody’s land but we will not give an inch of our land to anybody. To take anybody’s land is killing our peace what we enjoy with our land at hand now. So why you spend on military competitivly against india and instead extend the hand of peace so that the economy will grow and people to people contacts and dosti grows. Your peope may want to extend the hands with india, but your politicians will never, because they want to utilize you to fill their pockets.Recommend

  • Nov 14, 2010 - 3:14PM

    @Nazir Habib

    which the USA and UK patronize.

    Ever heard of CENTO, and CEATO, and who were the members. Do look up. While looking up please also find out about Star Fighters, Pattons, The Seventh Fleet and billions of Dollars in military aid, AND the country that received it.After you have done this, look up for the word ‘patroniose’ in the dictionary. A surprise awaits you.

    quality of our rural civilian leaders with the exception of a handful like the Quaid, Ayub and Bhutto.

    AYUB??? A ‘civilian leader’??? Are you sure, this is what your Pakistan Study text book has been telling you?

    When the day comes that Pakistan like the erstwhile Soviet Union cannot finance anything economically and militarily

    Are you aware of floods in your country?Do you know where relief and rehabilitation is comimg from?Are you sure Pakistan is ‘financing it economically and militarily’?Do you know what American helicopters were doing during the floods? READ.

    we can teach another lesson to India like 1965 and the Kargil adventure.

    While you are reading, look for 1965 Indo-Pak war on google, and also find out who went to Washington looking for a way out of Kargil?

    If you still want to discuss the issue further welcome back.Recommend

  • Anwar
    Nov 14, 2010 - 3:25PM

    The author has hit the nail on its head. Pakistan must change.
    Militaries world over are war-mongering. Its there profession.
    Hence we must first bring down the influence of Military.
    Secondly we should give up the fight with India and patch up our differences and settle Kashmir issue as soon as possible.
    We must also remove the external influences like USA and China., They do not act on out interest but theirs.
    Our political system should learn from Quaid and make politicians accountable reducing the corruption and reflect transparency.
    Religious influence should be brought down by making laws and administration more secular and democratic.

    Only then we can become a developed country in next 2- to 30 years. Alternative is too gross to even contemplate.Recommend

  • edgarm
    Nov 14, 2010 - 4:34PM

    Pakistan does not realise the Indian plan. Engage Pakistan in an arms race that it cannot affford, finally leading to Pakistans bankruptcy.Recommend

  • Irfan R
    Nov 14, 2010 - 5:57PM

    Yes, it looks a lot like Reaganomics. Keep upping the ante until the enemy goes broke. Pakistan’s leaders are too dumb to recognize that. I guess most Pakistani citizens have become fatalistic and lack the will to fight now. They have just given up on the idiocy of our leaders – both military and civilian.Recommend

  • vasan
    Nov 14, 2010 - 6:17PM

    Mr Nazir Habib
    Any one who wants to talk to Pakistan eye to eye should stand on their head mate. Because Pakistan always sees things upside down, we feel that this is a state upsidedownRecommend

  • Aryan
    Nov 14, 2010 - 6:27PM

    Some facts of the matter are
    1. ALL pakistanis wanted to defeat India militarily
    2. ALL pakistanis wanted Kashmir jihad to succeed

    But neither conventional war, nor jihad were successful for Pakistan.

    The result is huge economic problems and internal disturbances like terrorism.
    SO some people are asking for a change of policy

    But Pakistani mindset and desires remain the sameRecommend

  • Klues
    Nov 14, 2010 - 6:28PM

    I think we should be ready for war but never back from achieving peace.

    I also suggest civilians should be trained in case if there is an attack from any front. Good to have 48,214,298 men in standing militia.

    And those secular preachers should mind their own business. Our religion is very much part of our lives and our government should be based on Islam as well. Stop preaching us secularism, if we wanted it we would have kept the name Dominion of Pakistan. We are republic and to be exact Islamic republic, not democratic nonsense nor heedless secular.Recommend

  • trickey
    Nov 14, 2010 - 6:35PM

    Whatever Pakistan does is irrelevant now.
    India has a “Look East” policy, which can be read as “Ignore Pakistan”. Indeed, by blocking trade and transit, Pakistan has ensured that India doesn’t have any stakes in the prosperity of Pakistan. Anybody following Obama’s trip would know that India is increasingly linked to S-E Asia.
    It’s win-win for both countries. Pakistan wants Afghanistan, and it will probably get it. India wants even better ties with S-E Asia. It is likely to succeed too. All the Indian diplomatic bandwidth that Pakistan has been sucking up will be put to better use in S-E Asia.Recommend

  • Nov 14, 2010 - 6:46PM

    What Pakistan needs right now is not a doctrine of escalation but a strategic economic vision. Normalcy of trade and trade routes prior to the development of a sustainable competitive economic base will be far more disasterous than a nuclear war between India and Pakistan.

    China and India are the fastest growing economies in the world. Their economies of scale have put even European, American and Japanese corporate giants on defensive. They have confused them to such an extent that even easy solutions are now out of their sight. Is it imaginable that our corporate sector can compete with India given the conditions it is attempting to survive in?

    So, we must be careful in jumping at wrong conclusions.Recommend

  • m farooq hayat
    Nov 14, 2010 - 7:37PM

    dear khalid sb,
    strategically it has always been pakistans policy to maintain a substantial detterance against an external enemy considering its eastern and western borders for most part of its existence, if kiyan sb has announced it openly, it does’nt mean tht this is anything new. if one refers to he the 1965 war, then plz do also refer to history when india commited aggresion in the babusar pass and kargil leh sector and operation gibralter/grand slam waspu into effect in response if v tak of the 1971 war, it was india who was perpetrating violence inside the erst while east pakistan since march 1971.
    i m sorry to differ with u but the examples of U.S.A. and the Soviet union do not match india and pakistans situation too much. Soviet hardware and military strategy was far superior to tht of the U.S.A. until the former invaded afghanistan and sustainbility went lop sided as the communist army was not trained for any such warfare and the res is all history.
    so far as indigineous military technology is concerned, indian military hardware has always been inferior to what ever little has been developed by pakistan, its missiles seem to travel in the wrong direction on the launch pad, its L.C.A. will be operational in 2023 at the earliest and the arjun tank doesnt stop shedding tracks every time its driven on the testing grounds. more over according to recent economic experts opinions, indian economy is nothing but a built up economy, more of a puppet with its strings in the western imperialists hands to put up a show against the chinese. tey cud’nt eve sustin military misadventures against the nepalese communists who were getting meager support from the peoples republic of china. not to mention the disgracefull defeat of the indian forces against the sri lankan tamils much earlier.
    these bolly wood stars are good against ill equiped and outnumbered foes like the portugese in goa, the pakistani’s in east pakistan, the sikhs in the golden temple. when it cums to a serious fight, they r no where to be seen.
    i wonder on who’s side r u, pakistans misfortune has been the military dictatorships and corrupt politicians and last of all the Americans, as friends, but lets be sure of one thing, v as a state were not born to submitt to india, v r a nation of conquerors and a couple of defeats in a long drawn war shud mean nothing to brave warriors.

    pakistan zinda baadRecommend

  • Amjad Rana
    Nov 14, 2010 - 8:27PM

    It seems we have learned nothing from the collapse of Soviet Union! Really Sad. Suicidal path.Recommend

  • SSA
    Nov 14, 2010 - 9:41PM

    Just reading what the Indian lot write in the comments section of articles published in Pakistani newspapers is reason enough to not harbor any hope of lasting peace between the two countries. The undertones of these messages belie a deep-rooted malice against Pakistan and its citizens, most likely a result of being ‘educated’ on the curriculum approved by the powers that be of the Indian state. I find it to be an inherently flawed concept that advocates trade and peace-love-harmony daydreams with a lot that can barely contain its feeling of enmity against the people of another state. In other words, how do we trade with a people who hate us so much? Does India have a Khaled Ahmed imploring his countrymen not to look down upon the Pakistani people and erase from their minds the rote-learned, state indoctrinated ‘facts’ about The Enemy?

    As far as some of my naive friends here who keep harping on and on about the ‘sameness’ of the people of India and Pakistan, I have to ask you s simple question: Are you for real? Aren’t the Bahrainis and the Kuwaitis one people? Aren’t the Austrians and Germans the same people? Wasn’t Herat in Afghanistan and Neshapur in Iran once part of Khorasan for the longest time in history? Does that mean that everywhere in the world ‘the same people’ should become one country? What for? What does someone from Gilgit have in common with someone from Kerala? Get real, my friends. ‘Sameness’ doesn’t really mean watching the same Bollywood movie in Lahore and Delhi. I lived in the US for many years and have many wonderful Indian friends from that time but neither they nor I ever felt we were the same people. I remember meeting French speaking Spanish people from northern Spain and they’d hate the idea of merging with France. The lack of exposure and study in some of these comments here is disappointing.

    Good day.Recommend

  • Bean
    Nov 14, 2010 - 9:44PM

    article is realistic and shows that there are still some people thinking in the right direction.Recommend

  • Bean
    Nov 14, 2010 - 9:47PM

    article is realistic and shows that there are still some people thinking in the right direction.
    Really if Pak had spent these 60 years in economica development instead of competing with India in almost everything including the arms ( except education, healthcare, economy etc that is ) You would have been in a much better situation today. Sadly it is your lives and you people do not seem to believe in it.Recommend

  • Anonymous
    Nov 14, 2010 - 10:29PM

    We suffer from the delusion of grandeur! How can we seriously believe that the Indians want to take over the mess called today’s pakistan? Even our mighty army who won all the wars with indians (so we are taught to believe!!) and worlds #1 rated intelligence agency (by dubious publication) cant prevent the daily mayhem in the land of pure!! u think indians want to take us over!!
    Wake up and smell the cofee,
    we have a begging bowl and india has wallet full of $$ that even Obama went to visit for(beg) $$10B.Recommend

  • faraz
    Nov 14, 2010 - 10:46PM

    Our security state wont last for long. We havent learnt anything from Dhaka fall; its sad we still consider it a conspiracy.Recommend

  • Nov 14, 2010 - 11:55PM

    Much has been written about Russia and US cold war like India and Pakistan …but in all that US military and Soviet military kept meeting to discuss CBMs ….In our case the two armies never meet .and so suspicions of capability of India and to interpret intentions will increase, as Gen Kayani’s doctrine seems to convey. He is a quiet man and I wonder whether he ever said so publicly or is that the perception with which I agree as he is a power in Pakistan.

    As a Sindhi I really feel for the people of Karachi who for no fault of their own are suffering the influx of Afghanis, the wrath of the political parties MQM and others who wish to hurt PPP which has a majority and base in Karachi and the sectarian war by the Pakistan Taliban the pet of the ISI which has now turned agianst the Army and the ISI.This last is serious.

    India will never give up its side of Kashmir as the population now is 85 % born in Independent India and many Kashmiris are rich and prosperous and poverty is least in that state. India wants and needs peace and will be willing to sign a No War Pact, tacitly agree to the LOC as border and assure Pakistan of its territorial integrity and offer trade which just along the Wagah border could touch $ 6 bill and will benefit both countries.

    Do Middle line Pakistanis see a need for Pakistan to also think on these lines of reconciliation ?
    Do the Pakistanis feel the top Army brass of the Pakistani army meet counterparts in Golf Games in Lahore and I speak as a member of IPSI India Pakistan Soldier’s Initiative who can help get miliatries to meet if the Pakistani Ambassador in Delhi says the Army brass in Pakistan is willing. Recommend

  • UmEr
    Nov 15, 2010 - 12:10AM

    As a Muslim nation, our first responsibility is to protect the Muslims living in the country. we need a strong Military, we have Alhumdulillah, What are you gonna do with the Economy when you don’t have the people to “live”. We can die with hunger but we won’t die with shame defeated by a Enemy Nation.Recommend

  • Anoop
    Nov 15, 2010 - 12:19AM

    @G.Khan and @Nazir Habib and other war-mongers alike,

    Dudes, the rate of increase in defence expenditures will make Pakistan another Soviet Union, that is what the writer is suggesting.

    If you try to match India’s expenditure, which is only 2.5% of the GDP, with your limited resources, India will be successful in destabilizing Pakistan without ever firing a bullet. Why does it need to attack and waste precious Indian lives? Get it now?

    Pakistan should stretch its legs as long as the bed allows it to, borrowing from a Kannada saying.

    Pakistan is already spending a whopping 60% of its budget on defence and loan payments. That figure will only increase if Pakistan keeps on looking at India’s figures. Pakistan should realize that India and Pakistan are NOT equals in any sense of the word.Recommend

  • Moiz
    Nov 15, 2010 - 12:52AM

    Pakistan should forget about India and look West(or north-west). there’s plenty of oppurtunities for trade, and the economy can be pulled back on track. things weren’t always hunky dory in India or China, they were in much the same position a couple of decades ago. so here’s to twenty years in the future.
    and so far as war with India is concerned, we can’t afford, so if it happens, might as well end it right away. woooooooooooshhhh BOOM!Recommend

  • Nov 15, 2010 - 5:02AM

    He says he will frame Pakistan’s defensive strategy in line with India’s acquisition of Pakistan-specific weapons.

    For those who do not have a handle on military capabilities of the two neighboring giants, China surpassed whatever is there in Pakistan’s defensive capacity, in the previous century. Not too long ago, India did that as well and its defense strategy is squarely in response to China’s increased military spending. There is zero possibility for Pakistan to catch with India or China militarily. Pakistan has never found its place in the international order and has tried to throw around its weight way beyond its capacity. Post World War II, no nation on this planet has displayed such gross ignorance of its own weaknesses. Significant blunders were made in trying to help out the Americans while totally ignoring the costs of the aftermath to the subcontinent. Now, Kayani is supposed to realize the calculus of Pakistan bordering two global giants while being the connecting corridor to the Indian Ocean and the Gulf. At a bare minimum, he shouldn’t be making silly arguments. BTW, according to some forecasts, both China and India are likely to surpass the US and become $50 trillion economies by 2050.

    It is time we changed the paradigm of defence in Pakistan and returned to the normalcy of trade and trade routes.

    Now this is what I call a moonshot of intellectualism that Pakistan needs as soon as possible. Unfortunately, high-IQ folks are merely journalists and one can’t expect the obdurately weak-minded army to reach a Eureka moment anytime soon.Recommend

  • Irfan R
    Nov 15, 2010 - 6:40AM

    @Klues, you are the luckiest man alive in Pakistan and the most contented too, I would presume. All your wishes have come true. We are a society based on religion – as you yearned. We have no “democratic nonsense” and we have nearly 50-million men ready to kill anything in sight. If only more nations will have visionaries like you. My only question to you is – what do we have to show for this wonderful amalgam of circumstances? Or maybe this is the Pakistan you envision?Recommend

  • Irfan R
    Nov 15, 2010 - 7:12AM

    The saying that truth is the first casuality of war is no exaggeration. Some esteemed boarders here point out that India has inferior equipment compared to Pakistan. During the 1965 war the propaganda in Pakistan was that 1 Muslim soldier is equal to 10 Hindu soldiers – we all know what happened next. I don’t understand this blood-lust on both sides. Does Pakistan seriously hope to maintain parity with India in military strength? India is many times bigger than us and has an economy that is many times more robust. How can Pakistan hope to match India’s arsenal except make statements like “our equipment is superior to India’s”. I suppose, we’ll say “1 Pakistani gun is equal to 10 Indian guns” next. If only we compete with India on the economic front with the same zeal.Recommend

  • Usman Qazi
    Nov 15, 2010 - 10:46AM

    Khalid sb must be kidding! How can we ever consider the ‘peace and trade’ doctrine? He must remember that we are a nation with a tough pride and ego, exclusively reserved for Indians (and lately for Afghans too)! We, well we the civilians I mean, will achieve and maintain the nuclear deterrent even if we had to eat grass. I wonder, in case of that eventuality, whether I ll be allowed access to the lush green lawns of military messes, or I ll have to make do with increasingly scare roadside vegetation.What is a couple of humiliating military defeats, dismemberment of half the country, economic bankruptcy, an average of 3 bombings per day and custodial and target killings in Balochistan, in the glorious path of ultimate victory as predicted by Zaid Hamid, or was it Yousaf Kazzab? We are distinct from Indians in every respect. Our lentils are different, our Saris are differently worn, our local whiskeys are differently atrocious tasting, our respective fathers of nation spoke Gujarati with different accents, our army pay scales and perks are different, and we view Star Plus soaps from totally different perspectives, and so forth. We need not worry about exhaustion of economic resources to sustain the military build-up. Green-clad angels will rescue us!!Recommend

  • vikas ranjan
    Nov 15, 2010 - 10:52AM

    @UmEr

    We can die with hunger but we won’t die with shame defeated by a Enemy Nation.

    Well, 1971 had one side breaking into 2 and 93000 surrendering as POWs, but I think you have another definition for ‘defeat’ .Recommend

  • samina
    Nov 15, 2010 - 1:13PM

    if we want to keep the balance we should open our doors to China Recommend

  • Nov 15, 2010 - 1:17PM

    SSA – our text books are neutral albeit very boring. All our text books begin with a pledge (that we would mock at) stating that all Indians are our brothers and sisters.

    While the Hindus will look upon the Hindu part of history with a little more fondness, the Muslims do the same with their part of history. That is natural. But to be fair to the authors of the text books – the narration is neutral – though the NCERT books make an attempt to give you a more wholistic view of history – not just a chronology of kings and wars.

    As for the post independence era – we learn (actually just a few lines each) about the green revolution, Nehru’s five-year plans, the non-aligned movement. Believe it or not the wars are not mentioned (I cannot recall even one sentence on these wars) Most of what I know about the wars was narrated to me by my parents. Recommend

  • edgarm
    Nov 15, 2010 - 1:35PM

    @ Prasad – I never realised that the post 1947 wars are not mentioned in NCERT history books. And you are right . I have been teaching my kids and since you have pointed this out , I realised that this part is missing. Most of this is discussed by my kids with me or their grandparents.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 15, 2010 - 2:39PM

    The policies (specially on defence) are not ‘intent’ driven rather than ‘capability’ driven. As intent can change overnight but changing capabilities takes time. If India acquires certain capability in its arsenal which can have negative impact for Pakistan; then Pakistan needs to re-asses/revise its capability likewise no matter what the financial cost be. Similarly our economic compass needs to be aligned to the defence needs and not the other way round.

    Policies are built on realism and not idealism. We must remember our Quaid’s motto: “Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.”Recommend

  • Copper
    Nov 15, 2010 - 5:14PM

    The Indian attitude of sticking her nose into others’ business is vividly visible here by lots of her citizens. Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 15, 2010 - 5:39PM

    I was amused to read comments made by some Indians here. This is a rebuttal:

    Pakistan has corrupt politicians and army! Not more than India’s. Indian politicians and army are far more corrupt in scope and scale than Pakistanis can ever imagine it. – Poverty and backwardness;
    India is economically disadvantaged number more than 50% of their population – the shining India is a myth…
    Insurgency: India is facing a full blown insurgency by Naxalites in no less than 220 districts accounting for 40% of India in area terms

    I can go on and on.

    So its better if the Indians focus inward to reduce schisms in their society rather than being obsessed by Pakistan. Irony that even Indians don’t acknowledge is that all the military equipment is not targeted towards China, all of it is focussed on Pakistan. And then they have the guts to say we our military designs are not Pakistan specific.

    If India (really) wants peaceful relations with Pakistan, it needs to correct their human rights record and the barbarism that is unleashed on Kashmiris, Sikhs and other disadvantaged minorities….. give their people what they want rather than imposing their view on them! Until this happens, there will be no peace!

    India needs Pakistan to continue as a single entity. So it brands Pakistan as the other, an evil state, out to harm India. Indians foolishly follows this mantra, as this is the only way to keep their divided country together. Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 15, 2010 - 5:46PM

    Copper and others,
    We Indians write our comments on this newspaper because
    1. The editors of ET permit us to do so.
    2. If the article cocerns India, then Indians do have a right to voice their opinion.
    3. If the editors do not wish to see the “Indian” comments, let them frame a policy and let it be known
    4. Till such time as any other right “sulking” is also a fundamental right of individual. As “Danish” somewhere in the plethora of commentators having an identical take on “Indians”, you too keep sulking
    Good Day and Good LuckRecommend

  • UmEr
    Nov 15, 2010 - 6:36PM

    @vikas ranjan, It was NOT a Defeat, it was a “casualty” for us, No Army in the world can fight when it is made a sandwitch between some 250 Thousand traitors and some 500 thousand Invading forces.

    East Pakistan is history now, if you call it a defeat for us, thanks for that defeat, we now have a better Pakistan than pre-71.

    Defeat really is .. Being dreaming about coming to Lahore gym-Khana for evening’s drink and then kicked by a small battalion at the Lahore sector. Losing 120 Jets and just destroying 19 Enemy jets, that’s a DEFEAT.Recommend

  • Sonam Shyam
    Nov 15, 2010 - 8:31PM

    Mr Umer, When are people like you going to come out of your illusions?. Pakistani army has a great record of making a virtue out of every defeat handed out to them by the Indians. The ignominious surrender by Gen.Niazi in 1971 is considered casualty in Pakistan when the whole world acknowledges that it was arguably the most comprehensive defeat of any nation in history of modern warfare. Mr.Umer, which boasting Pakistani General has told you that Indians wanted to dine at the Lahore Gymkhana?. Ayub Khan and Bhutto started Operations Gibraltar and Grand Slam to capture Kashmir but nearly lost Lahore in the process. Independent observers have clearly concluded that even 1965 was a defeat for Pakistan because its military could not achieve the primary objective of capturing Kashmir by force. You barely managed to save Lahore and you are boasting about it? Again Mr.Umer, where did you get this figure of PAF shooting down 120 Indian jets(I presume you are referring to 1965 war) from? If Pakistan had shot down 120 Indian jets then surely it would not have suffered a crushing defeat six years later in 1971. Lost fighter jets in a war cannot be replaced overnight and it takes years for a single fighter squadron to be raised. Loss of 120 Indian jets would have meant a loss of nearly 7 fighting squadrons and it would have taken decades to replace those jets. So Mr.Umer how come IAF managed to defeat PAF in 1971? We in India always try to neutrally analyze our military operations. We accept that we got a thrashing by the Chinese in 1962 and we don’t take refuge in distorted military boasting. As regards 1965, we accept that PAF did manage to outperform the IAF but not to the scale that your propaganda machinery tells you. Does anyone on this forum would like to discuss the Kargil war and the total non performance of the PAF in that war? My request to everyone on this forum is to check out independent and neutral sites like the Wikipedia to get first hand information of Indo-Pak wars and other related issues. Finally in this over enthusiasm to project India’s growth as a myth, there has been a lot of propaganda regarding India’s poverty and Naxalite problem. Yes, We have around a third of our population in poverty but surely a bankrupt Pakistan has no locus standi to lecture us on this issue. As far as naxalism is concerned, its a socio-economic problem where some people have picked up arms to fight the injustices meted out to them and its not a separatist movement at all. The Maoist ideology of the naxalites is prevalent in various backward districts but that surely doesn’t mean that naxalites control all these areas. It would be better that people on this forum get their facts right to make the debates more meaningful. Recommend

  • Priya
    Nov 15, 2010 - 8:49PM

    Hi,

    Why does any article which has India and Pakistan mentioned become a slinging match between Indian and Pakistani commentators? Instead of discussing the merits or demerits of the article the only thing one gets to read is immature comments about superficial things as to who is bigger and mightier etc etc…Honestly I think the writer has a point, instead of focusing on India’s problems, Pakistan should have objectives/ goals for making Pakistan a stronger country (and acquiring arms is not the only way especially given today’s realities). And as much as his arguments are realistic, I guess it is very difficult for average Pakistanis to move away from being India centric to being Pakistan centric because of years probably decades of being fed on Indophobia. Not all Indians like Pakistan and I am sure some even think it should not exist or should be destroyed (as I am sure so do some Pakistani’s about India)..however this is nothing but day dreaming on either sides of the border. Only Pakistanis can save Pakistan. And every nation and country in world has a character of its own and the will to survive. If you are a great nation and believe me all nations are great (all have their own histories), you will survive even if India were to attack you. The question right now facing Pakistan is not – Do we have enough weapons to save our nation? the right question is – Will our weapons be of any use to save our nation?Recommend

  • Moiz
    Nov 15, 2010 - 9:11PM

    To Umer, Copper and the others, it’s best if you shut up and let the Indians make their comments. don’t you see that their comments are aimed specifically at eliciting this kind of response. let them say what they have to say. it’s called free speech. if you don’t like what they’re saying, simply exclude them from the conversation. or you can do the noble thing and take it as constructive (albeit not purely intended to be so) criticism. the fact of the matter is that as long as India is developing and Pakistan isn’t we’re going to have to bear with this “onslaught”. a better reply would be burgeoning economy, a trillion dollars in our federal reserve and some Fortune 500 companies from Pakistan. till then, stiff upper lip.Recommend

  • UmEr
    Nov 15, 2010 - 9:32PM

    Ms. Sonam, It’s not Pakistan Army propaganda, WHO started 1965 War? Get your facts tested first.

    Operation Gibralter was to liberate Kashmir which is a Disputed territory, we never attacked Indian soil first, on the night of 6th Sept, 1965, Indian Forces crossed International borders, You can go and research yourself, Neutral sources everywhere have estimated IAF’s losses to be round about 120 Jets and PAF’s losses at 20-25 jets. Accept it, Even in 71 War, the Air superiority remained with us.

    I think I don’t have to mention Chawinda here where more than 200 Tanks were burnt by Pakistani forces, you can deny the claim BUT one thing which force me to say that YOU LOST the war is, you gained nothing from the war AND we, I accept the Liberation of Kashmir was not successful BUT Kashmir issue was highlighted in the World. When Indian forces crossed International Borders, they had a objective to Capture Lahore and other major cities breaking Pakistan into two, did you achieve any of this? Even after 17 days of fighting at the Lahore sector, your Army couldn’t advance a single inch. Pakistan defended itself against a BIGGER Enemy and that’s why we say we WON, with a much larger force your country didn’t achieve any of your Military goal.

    And about kargil war, at that time, PAF was not equipped with BVR technology so jumping into the conflict was just as dying, and furthermore, that was NOT a war for us, that was a filed excercise for our Paramilitary forces, do you even know the Troops who were occupying the Kargil hills were from Pakistan’s Northern Light Infantry unit which was a Paramilitary force at that time.

    Your Army gained what from that? Lost almost 800 men for nothing, Our 350-450 troops were martyred, your Military with a number of 30,000 couldn’t advance in weeks and finally your Air Force was called and two of your jets were still shot down by Pakistani troops near LOC :)

    After so many days of fighting, what did you gain? Just a showoff that you won the war and thus your nation got a day to celebrate their fake victory :)

    You know what, this will be a shock to you, the highest Hill at Kargil, the Point 5353, is still Pakistan Occupied, your N. Highway is at our mercy all the time, so what did you won Ms. Sonam? ;)Recommend

  • m farooq hayat
    Nov 15, 2010 - 10:48PM

    i think most of the ppl are over powered by the india phobia, even ppl who seem to b having a muslim back ground. the west is building up india to face up the peoples republic of china, just like they built up the japanese empire against the same adversary about 120 yrs ago and in the end the western powers turned against thier own puppet, namely japan.

    was’nt it and still is an egoistic approach of the westerm imperialists? y cant they let a nation choose thier own type government/democracy? y cant they tolerate a country developing on thier own rather than to rely on the IMF and the WORLD BANK?

    is the egoistic policy ok for te westen powers to adopt? and wrong for us to pursue as pakistani’s? remember how pakistan started off, v dint even have papers to write on, our government dint even have money to pay the salaries of the government servants, one of u talked abt pakistan ecuming bankurupt? well forur informations sake, bakrupcy has been part of history but yet pakistan dint collapse.

    ever heard of miracles? pakistan is a miracle, ever heard of miracle? soon u ppl will c a miracle in afghanistan in shape of a U.S. withdrawl/defeat

    thanks fr ur time pplRecommend

  • Nov 15, 2010 - 11:15PM

    @UmEr

    I think I don’t have to mention Chawinda here where more than 200 Tanks were burnt by Pakistani forces, you can deny the claim BUT one thing which force me to say that YOU LOST the war

    When did you dream of this , here is what actually happened. Can you cite some similar source other than your Pakistan Study Text Books.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KhemkaranRecommend

  • kittu
    Nov 15, 2010 - 11:50PM

    @UmEr,

    You live in your own little world don’t you. Don’t watch too many bollywood films. You can check the facts here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KargilWar
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani
    Warof1965

    I am proud of Indian Forces, at the same time I am mature enough to understand the plight of families of soldiers who lost their lives in these wars on both sides. I am sure you are proud of pakistani forces. Their survival depends on your confidence in them. So Pak Army made it a strategy to keep you misinformed. May be Indian Army has this kind of strategy to keep me misinformed, But I am sure they don’t run my Govt.Recommend

  • Bean
    Nov 16, 2010 - 12:42AM

    @Waqas..

    What a shame man. You want to believe things that are not true. Instead of comparing everything with India and trying to console yourself ( with wrong facts) why dont you guys work to build a better society and nation for yourself? Why do you have to comapre things with India? You will only loose your sleep doing that.Recommend

  • kittu
    Nov 16, 2010 - 3:02AM

    @UmEr.

    About your post..

    As a Muslim nation, our first responsibility is to protect the Muslims living in the country. we need a strong Military, we have Alhumdulillah, What are you gonna do with the Economy when you don’t have the people to “live”. We can die with hunger but we won’t die with shame defeated by a Enemy Nation.

    Here is a better approach for you..As a Nation you should STRIVE to protect all the citizens including minorities. Real enemy to Pakistan is its extremist religious ideology not India. You don’t have to die with hunger as no body is trying to defeat you. In a neclear world a real enemy cannot be defeted. So have a Biryani on me.Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 16, 2010 - 7:10AM

    @Umer,
    if your projections of Pakistan’s military might is true, Pakistan has no business asking all and sundry to intervene on the Kashmir issue. All you have to do is ask your ‘superior’ military to walk in and take Kashmir. India will surely know when it is beaten. All this nonsense about Kargil being an ‘exercise’ is only embarrassing your nation’s military. I guess, Nawaz Sharif went running to Clinton to help stop the Kargil ‘exercise’ after blaming Musharraf for starting this ‘exercise’ without consulting him, is also another exercise of his. Wake up and smell the cordite, my friend. Your illusions of grandeur is already unraveling for the world to see. Indians do not seek ‘friendship’ with Pakistan – only a cessation of hostilities. There isn’t another example of a more under-achieving military in the world than Pakistan’s – which has lost every single skirmish or war. But your military is not going to admit to that, will they? Just read about them in neutral websites – if you can stomach the truth, that is.Recommend

  • Sonam Shyam
    Nov 16, 2010 - 8:08AM

    Mr.Umer, I thought I would make this debate more meaningful but your rhetoric continues unabated. As Mr.Vikas pointed about the war in Khemkaran sector, what do you have to say about it? What about the battle of “Asal Uttar”? Its absolute news for the rest of the world to hear that it was India which started the 1965 war. Our objective in 1971 war was to liberate Bangladesh, which we fully achieved with 93000 POW’s in our control. You would be surprised to know that your government even released a postal stamp highlighting the plight of your POW’s to garner world sympathy. Really, you seem to be brainwashed to the core. Now coming to the Kargil war. My God!, I didn’t know that the Kargil war was a field exercise for the Pakistani para military forces. Gen.Musharraf, along with a couple of other core commanders, started this exercise of occupying vacant Indian posts and the idea was to cut off the Srinagar-Leh highway, ostensibly to starve and freeze the Indian troops in Siachen. Now Mr.Umer, have you heard someone named Air.Com.Retd Kaiser Tufail? He was commanding the PAF operations in Kargil and has given a blow by blow account of Kargil war right from the planning stage to the end of the war. Mind you, this is not Indian propaganda, but your own air force officer spilling the beans. Mr.Tufail, has clearly mentioned the warning which the PAF gave to the self serving Pakistani army officers about the loopholes in the whole operation and how it was doomed to fail, but to no avail. Pakistani soldiers were getting killed in heaps and your beloved Gen.Musharraf, was busy calling them mujahideens and even refused to take their dead bodies. It was left to the Indian army to give a burial to those Pakistani soldiers with full Islamic principles. At least 800 Pakistani soldiers were killed in Kargil while Mr.Nawaz Sharif put the figure at 3000 killed. Mr.Umer, your tactically brilliant Generals slaughtered any where between 800 to 3000 soldiers just for a field exercise? You surely can’t be serious. As far as your claim that Indian troops couldn’t advance further, let me tell you that the brief given to the army was to clear Indian territory of the intruders without crossing the LOC. Therefore further advancement theory is totally bogus. Yes, a couple of our jets were shot down by your stingers but the IAF changed tactics and ultimately the Pakistani forces had to really bear the brunt of highly sophisticated precision bombings on the Tiger Hill and Muntho Dhalo, resulting in heavy casualties. Your army invaded Kargil and was forcefully evicted and you are asking us what did we gain from the war? Your army failed to achieve its objective of cutting off the strategic highway and you are claiming victory? Come on Mr.Umer, don’t demean your intelligence. As far as your claim regarding Pakistan occupying Point 5353, if that is true then what is stopping your army to cut off the strategic highway? Please ask Gen Kayani to do it. Finally, Mr.Umer, what about Siachen? Your army tried its level best but still is no where near the heights occupied by the Indian army. Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 16, 2010 - 11:58AM

    @UmEr
    We Indians are inferior in our intellect and fighting abilities. We Indians are poor. Our moral fabric is bankrupt, but still 90K troops surrender to this “inferior” Army, Every second artist from your country wants to work in our “morally bankrupt” bollywood and film Industry. Every knowledge based company wants to hire our “inferior Intellect” to innovate in cutting edge technology.Right from Gaints like Microsoft to IBM to small critical technology firms have their “Centres of excellence” here and that includes your “all weather friend” Chinese firms. Come down from your ivory tower. You obviously are living in fool’s paradise. Anyway ignorance is a bliss. How about that for some food for thoughtRecommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 16, 2010 - 12:07PM

    @vikas, sonam & other indians

    Your comments show how you have been brain washed into believing in fairy tales about indian superiority. Its time to wake and smell the coffee. Your governments have repeatedly duped you into believing that you’ve won all the wars, i guess in your books India won the 1857 war against British as well, and Mughals and all others who invaded and ruled India were also defeated including Alexander… but in our part of the world, we take history seriously, so be happy living in the fools paradise that you’ve created for yourselves.

    Reality strikes when India ‘the mighty’ is challenged by stone throwing teenagers in Kashmir who are then responded with bullets, or when Naxalites who now control 40% of your country ambush and slaughter your ‘superior police and army’… and when a handful of young men with couple of guns, can play havoc with your ‘superior security forces’ for 3 days in Mumbai…..

    Until and unless you start working on developing a society based on social justice, bring the 50% of your population out of poverty and share the economic fruits equally and give freedom of thought, expression and freedom to govern the lives one wants to. Until you give right of self determination to Kashmiris.. there will be no peace within India or with her neighbors.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 16, 2010 - 12:32PM

    @ Bean: I was giving a rebuttal to the Indians here, who claim superior forces, superior technology, superior country than Pakistan… thus giving them the right to lecture us into what to do, and what is right!! They should look at their country before they start pointing fingers at others!! In Pakistan we know the reality. Its the Indians getting sleepless nights because of us not the other way round :-) About believing things that are not true, u did’nt tell me where was i wrong? A nation’s character is made through selfless sacrifices and building things one is proud of. We are proud of our Pakistan and proudly display what we have achieved despite having a monstrous neighbor who is always on the lookout to harm us, imposed three wars on us and doesn’t let any opportunity pass where it can damage our standing, reputation and physically harm us. India is fomenting trouble in our tribal areas and Balochistan.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 16, 2010 - 2:19PM

    @ sonam

    Kargil: More than 10,000 indian ‘superior’ armed forces casualties who fell like cockroaches, so much so that you guys didnt have coffins and they had to be imported… with Pakistani casualties under 350…

    As i said, keep living in your fool’s paradise… Only our mujahideen are enough for you, as you are no match for our regular troops…Recommend

  • Amer
    Nov 16, 2010 - 2:43PM

    I totally agree with Priya! It seems like the comments on this article have been hijacked by hatemonger on both sides. Being a Pakistani I have lived in a few other countries including the US and lived with/met alot of Indians….I really believe that both sides should come to their senses very soon. I will only speak from the Pakistani prospective and what I see in the future for Pakistan. We really need to look into the future and talk among ourselves, decide where we want to see Pakistan in 2011 to 2025, possibly beyond. If we won’t even try to do this then the next 10 years are going to be just the same or even worst then the last 10 years. Alot of things (including the war within our borders) are in our control at the moment,it won’t be anywhere near our control if things keep on the same because of our own deteriorating economic condition. We need to look at our defence budget and look for ways of cutting it to a reasonable amount where it’s not our major expense. Having a constant confrontation on both sides of our borders will never allow for any defense budget cuts & it’s going to take us to economic mayhem very soon. Hate me as much as you like but that’s the reality check my dear Pakistanis.
    Pakistan Zindabad! Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 16, 2010 - 3:08PM

    @Waqas, @Umer, wasn’t it 30,000 casualties for India and 13 for Pakistan in Kargil? The 13 Pakistanis who died did so when their chopper crashed due to foul weather. Nawaz Sharif rushed to the US to help stop the carnage of the poor Indians. Nawaz was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for this effort. And the funny thing is Kargil was just a ‘military exercise‘ for Pakistan. So was the 1971 war but somehow the ‘exercise‘ became too strenuous, it broke Pak into two. Too much exercising may not be so good for the health. Pakistan has never fought a war – only military exercises. Recommend

  • Anonymous
    Nov 16, 2010 - 3:31PM

    @Waqas
    At least have some respect for soldiers who fought and gave their lives for Musharraf’s fantasies. Seems you have been readng too many Zaid Hamid articles. Read some independent world (NOT INDIAN – its too modest in these matters) media too. Dreaming is good but day dreaming…????Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 16, 2010 - 3:47PM

    I really have to commend the moderators of this website for their even-handed moderation. No comment is circumcised or deleted because it originated in India. It is refreshing to come to a website that is entirely fair. Hats off to the guys behind the scenes of this wonderful website. It is laid out beautifully and manned by professionals who understand the importance of freedom of expression. Well done ! Recommend

  • Amer
    Nov 16, 2010 - 4:10PM

    @Waqas, Umer etc: Let’s cut the childish crap guys! Telling these Indians what you think of the wars etc etc won’t make an iooota of a difference in any Pakistani’s life. Why don’t you channel that energy and time in discussing solutions for Pakistan? I don’t see alot of people offering solutions these days, most of the writers are biased and have their own political/personal agendas.
    We need to ask ourselves if we are really serious in contributing to a discussion or if we are only commenting for the sentimental value & tit-for-tat games.Recommend

  • UmEr
    Nov 16, 2010 - 5:52PM

    @Sonam Shyam, That’s not just my claim, your own media went to that part and made a report about how after 10 years, we still occupy the highest hills. So my question is what did you achieved? I think I don’t have to mention here the FACT that in 3 weeks your soilders were not even aware of where the heck is this fire coming from..

    Lt Gen Kishan Pal on NDTV said that he was not convinced that he YOU guys won KARGIL, go search on youtube..

    THE FACTS OF KARGIL CONFLICT

    We have fought a great war in the mountains of kashmir, but unfortunately, our then coward prime minister betrayed the nation and we had to retreat, and then, india has used its full propaganda machine to try to come out of a victory after such a humilation at the hands of few hundred mujahideens.
    Some facts are:
    1.Total number of Mujahideen, at any stage did not exceed approx: 1000.
    2. They captured one of the most difficult terrain and in intense cold enviornment.
    3. They completely evaded the indian intelligence machine and the (made in india)satellites pictures.
    4. It was a total surprise to indians when sheperds brought the news of invasion to indian military machine, which took some days to realize its importance.
    5. Indian chief of staff did not even cancelled his foreign visit.
    6. The first search party of 60 indian soldiers was completely annihilated and none of them returned.
    7. The second search party of 259 indian soldiers was either annihalited or injured.
    8. The first camberra reconisance mission ended up in a damaged camberra plane, which did land in srinagar and brought to indians the actual scale of invasion.
    9. Two indian planes were downed including a mig 21 and mig 27.
    10. An indian helicopter was downed.
    11. Airforce totallly stopped all its operations and so did the military helicopters.
    12. It took long time for the indian airforce to come back again, but only with mirage 2000 planes dropping bombs from high altitude…and also using laser guided bombs.
    13. A barrage of artillery pounding continued for the next 6 weeks, and in the end, even bofor guns were employed, in order to score, as there did not seems to be any change in Mujahideen positions.
    14. There was a huge loss to indian military . there was a shortage of coffins. About 1700 indian soldiers died and more than the same number injured.
    15. About 50 bofors bombs were used per mujahideen amounting to US$50000 per person, apart from the various other ammunition used extensively including artillery shells, rockets from ground launchers and air and infantry attacks.
    16. After all this efforts for nearly 2 months, it took Clinton to come to india´s rescue, and pakistan had to retreat with 370 losses in life.Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 16, 2010 - 6:19PM

    @UmEr,
    The issue is solved then. All you guys have to do is flex your considerable military muscle and you can take Kashmir anytime – if what you say is even remotely true. End of story. Why do you then have to go to the UN or ask the US to intervene? Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 16, 2010 - 7:10PM

    @UmEr
    and add
    Casualities
    Casualties for both sides were heavy. Pakistani claims gave two figures. The figure of 357 soldiers dead was challenged by some Pakistani officials, who claimed that 4,000 Pakistani soldiers were killed in the conflict. Pakistan also confirmed that more than 665 Pakistani troops were wounded and 8 were captured. According to India, Indian losses stand at 527 soldiers killed, 1,363 wounded, and 1 captured.

    Pakistan army losses have been difficult to determine, partly because Pakistan has not published an official casualties list. The US Department of State had made an early, partial estimate of close to 700 fatalities. According to numbers stated by Nawaz Sharif there were over 4,000 fatalities. His PML (N) party in its “white paper” on the war mentioned that more than 3,000 Mujahideens, officers and soldiers were killed.[127] Another major Pakistani political party, the Pakistan Peoples Party, also says that “thousands” of soldiers and irregulars died.[128] Indian estimates stand at 1,042 Pakistani soldiers killed.[
    Want more…
    Do your homework before commenting
    This source is WiKipediaRecommend

  • Huda
    Nov 16, 2010 - 7:31PM

    How does Kayani plan to determine which part of India’s arsenal is “Pakistan specific”? India is in an arms race with China, too, you know.Recommend

  • Moiz
    Nov 16, 2010 - 10:46PM

    i am really sorry to intervene but i have to say, UmEr, Waqas,Copper, before it gets anymore embarassing, let me tell you straight up, whatever the Indians are saying is true. Pakistan has lost all it’s wars, unless you count 1947. India never wanted Kargil in the first place. we went over there, and came back with our tails b/w our legs. of course, there were several Indians martyred, but we had the greater loss since our objectives weren’t completed. 1971 doesn’t require explanation, and yes, we did attack first in ’65. you guys don’t realize that the army is the real enemy of Pakistan. they own the most land, take the most out of the GDP and have the highest salaries. the army is exactly the reason you guys think this way. if the generals had been kind enough to donate a month’s paycheck, instead of just ferrying aid around, the sailaab zadgaan would be living in brand new homes. we need to keep a check on the army, otherwise we too will become Hitler’s Germany. And like i said before, don’t reply to the Indians, this article doesn’t really concern them, and hence their (malice containing) comments aren’t welcome so far as i’m concerned. like i said, until we achieve economic parity(we can never stand shoulder to shoulder in warfare) we’re gonna have to bear with this.Recommend

  • Nov 16, 2010 - 11:09PM

    @Waqas

    You write
    Your comments show how you have been brain washed into believing in fairy tales about indian superiority. Its time to wake and smell the coffee.

    I have reproduced my post below,as you can see, it has no mention of any Indian superiority.
    When did you dream of this , here is what actually happened. Can you cite some similar source other than your Pakistan Study Text Books

    Alongwith this comment I had posted a link to a ‘verifiable source’ giving an account of what happened at Khemkaran and Asal Uttar. As you must have noticed the link was of non-Indian origin.I had asked UmEr to show some similar verifiable source for his claim.

    I will do so for your claim too.You have claimed

    Kargil: More than 10,000 indian ‘superior’ armed forces casualties who fell like cockroaches,
    More than 10,000 indian ‘superior’ armed forces casualties who fell like cockroaches,

    Can you post a link to some verifiable independent source. I understand that as a resident of the Islamic Republic, the concept of ‘verifiable facts and sources’ is not only alien but an anathema to you, but the ‘civilised world’ expects such standards. I will be generous to you, even if you are unable to back your claim of 10,000 Kargi casualties with verifiable sources, I will accept your statement if you say that in this month of Hajj you swear that this ststement is correct.
    Please also note I have not referred to superiority, Indian or otherwise. You did.Recommend

  • Parvez Mahmud
    Nov 17, 2010 - 12:53AM

    What are the items Bharat wants to trade? Examples please.
    For Pakistan, the need is to build stock of battlefield nukes. This should not cost a whole lot.
    There is need to get out of fake war on terror which is costing big.
    Let Bharat compete with China.
    Spend money on heath and education.
    EndRecommend

  • MilesToGo
    Nov 17, 2010 - 7:14AM

    Pakistan should reunite with Bangladesh. What say…Recommend

  • Nov 17, 2010 - 10:34AM

    @Parvez Mahmud

    For Pakistan, the need is to build stock of battlefield nukes. This should not cost a whole lot.

    If you want them so badly, why did you allow Dr Khan to smuggle the nukes to other countries, And more importantly, since you get it for free from China, (in exchange for Gwadar, and Gold Mines and Gilgit Baltistan) are you sure you want to pay?

    There is need to get out of fake war on terror which is costing big.

    Costing who?Last time I checked Pakistan was getting billions of dollars for two timing its ally in the war.

    Let Bharat compete with China.
    Spend money on heath and education

    To slightly paraphrase you, “Let Pakistan Compete with Afghanistan, Spend Money on Madersahs and Fidayeen”Recommend

  • Amer
    Nov 17, 2010 - 1:11PM

    @vikas ranjan: The bottom line is that you are a hate/war monger your self. I didn’t want to jump into all the stupid comments here but your war monger mentality deserves a response! Recommend

  • Umar farooq
    Nov 17, 2010 - 1:30PM

    As long as army leaders in Pakistan retain their role in having amongst the highest incomes of any military leaders on Earth…our nation will continue on its self destructive pathRecommend

  • Elvis
    Nov 17, 2010 - 2:19PM

    Imagine what Pakistan could achieve with a population of 170 million, if only it can channelise it in the right way. India in the initial years spent money on education and healthcare and the results are showing now inspite of having many corrupt politicians.

    With Pakistan not focussed on the rght goals, we find that that poorer nations have overtaken it in growth. Countres like Afganistan , Ethiopia, Malawi,East Timor, Mozambique, Nigeria, Bhutan ,Djibouti and even Bangladesh have overtaken it registering more than 5 % growth annually.

    What use having a muscular body if your inside organs are degenerating? I hope the leaders of Pakistan realise that stop they have to stop the hate mongering and look to strengthen its economy and education system. If not, be ready to welcome something similiar to the Iranian revolution.

    I think the seeds are already sown.Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Nov 17, 2010 - 2:26PM

    To all my Indians friend welcome to free and diverse media of Pakistan, where people are allowed to criticize army and other security institutions and where even Indians are allowed to express their hate against Pakistan and Pakistanis using their typical bad mouthing.

    This privilege is not available to Pakistanis on Indian news websites.

    I am proud of my country’s free, outspoken and dynamic media and journalistsRecommend

  • ashok sai
    Nov 17, 2010 - 4:30PM

    90% of Indians dont know who is the army chief, whereas only 10%(even less) of pakistanis dont know who is there army chief,

    The above statement contains the problem as well as the solution, DOT.Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 17, 2010 - 5:35PM

    @Naeem Siddiqui, Australia,
    Mr.Naeem Siddiqui of Australia, I don’t think anybody is spewing ‘hatred’ here. The internet has no boundaries and if hearing facts that don’t suit your narrative is ‘hatred’ then I am guilty as charged. I mean, you guys are welcome to think Pakistan won every war against India but surely, it is not hatred if I point out that it is not true. And it is a fact, I can’t tell you the name of my Army chief without looking it up. Recommend

  • Neeraj, India
    Nov 17, 2010 - 8:57PM

    @Naeem Siddiqui, Don’t tell me that Pakistani newspapers are very fair in giving full freedom to us Indians on comments critical of Pakistan. May be, ET is an exception. But here too, I found some of my comments go unpublished, though I never use any abusive language, at worst my comments do contain sarcasm or humor. However, I am ready to give benefit of doubt to this newspaper assuming that it might have been a technical error. But, my worst experience was at your so called most liberal newspaper( I don’t want to name it) where almost all of my comments either not published or badly censored, distorting the entire content of my comment which forced me to vow never to write to that paper again.
    As for Indian newspapers, I don’t know about your personal experience, but I saw many Pakistanis criticizing India in their comments. Yes, their number is small, but, that is natural. Compared to India, Pakistan is a small country and number of english speaking Pakistanis is even smaller.
    I visit Pakistani newspapers because some of the writers are exceptionally brilliant that includes author of this article Mr. Khaled Ahmed, Ayesha Siddiqa, Kamran Shafi, Irfan Hussain and some others. I think it is these people who are mainly responsible for attracting us Indians, at least, someone like me. Nobody visits or at least, revisits a newspaper like The Nation, edited by a woman Mullha. Therefore, buddy, don’t loose sleep over the fact that so many Indians are visiting some of the Pak newspapers, if fact, it should be matter of pride to you. Recommend

  • Hassan Malik
    Nov 17, 2010 - 9:30PM

    In World War II, Hitler surprised Stalin by attacking Russia. Stalin had no idea that Hitler would start a war with Russia, because he was convinced that Hitler did not have the intent or the will to start a war with Russia, while being at war with the rest of the Europe. Russia was not prepared at all for this invasion and lost millions of lives trying to defend the homeland.
    As a consequence, Hitler’s armies marched right towards Moscow. Maybe Mr. Najam Sethi should read about the changeability of a nation’s intentions. The history is full of it.Recommend

  • Nov 17, 2010 - 9:38PM

    @Naeem Siddiqui

    Thank you and Tribune for having us.However, I have an issue with your statement, “This privilege is not available to Pakistanis on Indian news websites.”

    Not having visited all news websites I can not vouch for all, but one site welcomes participants from across the world. Try outlookindia.com . They have an open door and open mind policy. In fact they have been hosting our dissident in chief a.k.a Arundhati Roy most frequently. Welcome.Recommend

  • Ra
    Nov 18, 2010 - 12:34AM

    To all those who think Pakistan won in Kargil, 1971, 1965, 1948, like Umer does:

    Please educate yourself by reading history from not only your sources but also Indian, European and American accounts. You will get a well rounded view and perhaps reach the conclusion that even many in your civil and military circles have: Pakistan started all wars and did not accomplish its objectives in any of them – in the process it was defeated in all of them. Educate yourself on facts and analysis from a variety of sources. Only then can you escape the clutches of national mythology and political indoctrination. If you don’t, you will continue to commit intellectual suicide as warned by your own General K. M. Arif (author of Khaki Shadows). By the way that is an excellent book. Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 18, 2010 - 7:06AM

    “In World War II, Hitler surprised
    Stalin by attacking Russia. Stalin had
    no idea that Hitler would start a war
    with Russia…”

    @Hassan Malik, here’s your clue: Hitler was an autocrat. He dissolved the reichstag and assumed total power. Does that ring a bell? If you are making a strong case for Pakistan to disarm, you couldn’t have said it any better.Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Nov 18, 2010 - 1:16PM

    @ ashok sai

    I didn’t know about Indian Army chief till he gave the idea of ‘Two Front’ war with china and Pakistan simultaneously and the ‘Cold Start Doctrine’ against Pakistan :)

    That was really an interesting idea, I did not find any single Indian journalist who could come forward and discuses the feasibility of this ‘Two Front war’ and ‘cold start doctrine’

    But dear Indians you are still welcome to discuses Kyani’s ‘Doctrine of capability and not the intention’Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Nov 18, 2010 - 1:30PM

    @ Neeraj, India

    I have seen the comments of the ‘larger English speaking’ Indians on Indian news papers, they are full of explicit abuses, derogatory words against Pakistan and Islam. Some of them even abuse religious personalities of Islam and its basic teachings and above all those news websites allows those comments to appear.

    After reading those ‘High quality’ and ‘Thought Provoking’ articles and comments from ‘larger English speaking’ Indians, I as a ‘smaller English speaking’ Pakistani don’t feel like joining them :)

    There is a saying if you throw stone on gutter it will only rotten your own cloths.Recommend

  • vikas ranjan
    Nov 18, 2010 - 4:39PM

    @Amer: Amer, I do not consider myself even a true blue patriot. If you care to see, I have not responded to any posts citing India’s poverty or human rights record or India being eons behind patron in chief China. But I draw a line on facts. If a claim of 200 tanks or 10000 casualties, or Indian being the aggressor in 1965 is made I would like to see some objective / verifiable source for such claims. And that is precisely what I have done. If that makes me a warmonger I plead guilty. In any event it is a matter of opinion and I fully concede that you have every right to hold any opinion. But as I am an interested party, can you, for just once point out the ‘war mongering’ parts of my post please.Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 18, 2010 - 6:35PM

    UmEr and co,
    Good news. Today Pak army quitely admited … read the post below
    ISLAMABAD: Eleven years after the Kargil War, the Pakistan Army which has been denying its role in the conflict has quietly included the names of 453 soldiers and officers in the battle on its website.

    Proof of the involvement of regular Pakistani soldiers in the 1999 Kargil War over a string of strategic heights in the Kargil sector of the Line of Control in 1999 has come from an institution that spent years denying its role in the hostilities with India – the Pakistan Army.

    The 453 Pakistani soldiers were shown killed in Batalik-Kargil sector in Jammu and Kashmir.

    The names of those who died in Kargil are tucked away in a list of thousands of personnel killed while on duty that has been posted in the “Shuhada’s Corner” (Martyrs Corner) of the website.

    The very first page of the long list of martyrs includes the names of Capt Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan, who were both killed on July 7, 1999 in Kargil and awarded Pakistan’s highest military award, the Nishan-e-Haider.

    Several others were posthumously given other gallantry awards like the Tamgha-e-Jurat (Medal of Courage).

    The army also reveals the codename given to the operation to occupy strategic mountains and heights on the Indian side of the LoC – “Operation Koh-e-Paima” or Mountain of Resolve. In some cases, the campaign is also referred to as “Operation Kargil”.

    A majority of those who died in Kargil were soldiers from the Northern Light Infantry, a formation that was made a regular regiment of the Pakistan Army because of its performance in the 1999 conflict.

    It was earlier a paramilitary force formed by the amalgamation of several militias from the Northern Areas or Gilgit-Baltistan.

    Several causes are cited for those who died in Kargil – “killed in action”, “enemy action”, “enemy firing”, “enemy artillery shelling” and even “road accident”. The list gives the name, rank, unit, and location and nature of death of each casualty.

    During the Kargil conflict and in subsequent years, the Pakistan Army insisted that none of its regular soldiers were involved in the hostilities. Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 18, 2010 - 6:42PM

    and add
    these do not include the scores of killed soldiers Pakistan refused to accept and were buried with full honours by the Indian Army. Hope some day sense will prevail in Pakistan Army and will accept them,, honour them, thereby bringing some closure for their loved ones.Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 19, 2010 - 7:01AM

    Finally the Pakistan Army owns up to its dead Kargil soldiers – after 11 years of not even claiming their bodies. Spare a thought for the soldiers who laid down their lives only to be disowned by their own army. Is this the way a ‘professional’ army treats its own soldiers who made the ultimate sacrifice? The @Umers of the world better wake up. You have been fed lies since the inception of Pakistan. Route your energies towards, at least, recognizing the sacrifices of your war heroes. A society that cannot even do that is not even one IMHO. Even though I am the ‘enemy’, my heart goes out to the poor soldiers who laid down their lives and have nothing to show for it. I mean that in the sincerest way.Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 19, 2010 - 7:03AM

    The Indian Army buried the dead Pakistani soldiers with full military honour and in true Islamic tradition. Your ‘enemy’ treats your war heroes better than your own Army. Think about it.Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Nov 19, 2010 - 12:38PM

    @Pardeep Singh and @Tony Singh

    This ‘Good news’ is a cooked story, Pakistan army and Govenrment from day one accepting the casualties some where around 500, infact Capt Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan were awarded Nishan-e-Haider just couple of months after the kargil war.

    Pakistan always accepted it occupied some mountain posts on indian side of kargil to have a better stretegic position in case of indian invasion. Recommend

  • Anonymous
    Nov 19, 2010 - 12:43PM

    Hi,

    It is amusing to read much of the articles.

    I read a comment about the difference between the situations in india and pakistan. We both are in the gutter but the only difference is india is with its face up and seeing the stars while for Pakistan it is with the face down.

    As an ordinary Indian except for occassions like 26/11 i am least interested in pakistan or what state they are in. Proper education, proper sanitation, good infrastructure, a job in hand is what is on my mind. So i am just wondering do these matters really concern an ordinary pakistani or are do they still harbour dreams of ‘Listening to Radi
    o pakistan in New Delhi’

    I think this is the problem with pakistanis. There are no role models you can ape. We have guys like Ratan Tata, Dhirubhai ambani etc whom we try to ape. I think there is a genuine dearth of such icons in pakistan who can be role models.

    If I were a pakistani I would put all my attention in improving my education , infrastructure etc rather than getting into self defeating competition with India.

    And a simple question. Why would India growing at 8% pa attack pakistan? Do you think any sensible nation would want to do it?Recommend

  • srinivasan
    Nov 19, 2010 - 3:17PM

    Anonymous “We both are in the gutter but the only difference is india is with its face up and seeing the stars while for Pakistan it is with the face down”
    You couldnt have put Indian and Pakistani position better.
    What on the earth makes u think India will attack Pakistan. India never invaded any country in the past but was under subjugation by other outsiders(Moguls, Mongols, Brits etc) and that is precisely why India from being one of the biggest economies of the world in 18/19th century has come down to this position.. I am sure we will regain the past glory with Dr Singh in the helmRecommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 19, 2010 - 4:07PM

    @ Pardeep vikas and other Indians

    You guys don’t have any right to lecture us when your own country is worse than ours. The same parameters that you are judging Pakistan with are rampantly abused by your own government in India on a regular basis. And the level of obsession shown by you guys only confirms that India and Indians are obsessively overwhelmed by Pakistan. It confirms our worst fears that India wants to harm Pakistan militarily, socially, economically, diplomatically and politically.

    The fact remains that among many of the issues holding back progress between Pakistan and India, Kashmir remains the biggest. And the level of immaturity India is showing in its dealing with this issue is for all to see. I will listen to you, if you give right of free determination to Kashmiris, this will be the biggest confidence building measure that india is finally moving towards peace in the region and not being the regional bully that its showing right now. Otherwise Pakistan will be your nemesis.Recommend

  • Anoop
    Nov 19, 2010 - 4:51PM

    @Waqas,

    “Otherwise Pakistan will be your nemesis.”

    –> If you say so.

    “It confirms our worst fears that India wants to harm Pakistan militarily, socially, economically, diplomatically and politically.”

    –> Sure, go ahead and spend the little money left for development on Defence. Already 60% of your budget is spent on defence and debt servicing. India spends only 2.5% of GDP, FYI.

    “I will listen to you, if you give right of free determination to Kashmiris, this will be the biggest confidence building measure that india is finally moving towards peace in the region and not being the regional bully that its showing right now. ”

    –> That cannot happen for a lot of reason. No country,as economically and politically strong as India, in History has voluntarily given up a piece of neighbouring land to any other country under any circumstances. Add to that Constitutional amendments to be approved by the Parliament and most importantly Supreme Court, and the question of the status of 150 Muslims of India and the precedence it will set, you can easily assume this is NEVER going to happen. India is not a dictatorship like Pakistan(A dictatorship with many leaders, some democratic some non-democratic) to just sign a piece of document and hold a Plebiscite.

    The leader who will even suggest a plebiscite can kiss his political career goodbye.

    Besides, Kashmir has 3 parts, 2 of which are well-integrated with India. The protests in Kashmir will be replaced by the Taliban bomb blasts and suicide blasts to kill the infidels left in Kashmir and especially in Jammu and Ladakh if it comes under you guys.

    “The fact remains that among many of the issues holding back progress between Pakistan and India, Kashmir remains the biggest.”

    –> India is not held back by any country. It is on its way to become the fastest growing economy in the world in 5 years. We dont spend 60% of our budget on defence and our debts are well below our Foreign Reserves which are about a $Trillion now.

    So, you decide, Kashmir is dragging whom.Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 19, 2010 - 5:25PM

    @Naeem Siddiqui
    Read old newspapers and Musharraf’s briefing. He claimed they were Mujahideens (Go to pak defence forum site) According to neutral observers minimum 1000 Pak Army men died. Yes tour Army is a good cook. Cooked up the figures. Have respect for dead soldiers man. Recommend

  • Tony Singh
    Nov 19, 2010 - 5:29PM

    @waqas
    You are right. Kashmir is the biggest issue. So when is Pakistan vacating the land it occupied in 1947 and ask its chinese friends to also return part of Kashmir you gifted? Indeed that would be the greatest CBMRecommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui
    Nov 19, 2010 - 8:42PM

    @Tony Singh

    This cooked story was first initiated in Indian media from out of nowhere. I don’t need to read history and some privately owned defense forum. I myself and hundred and thousands of Pakistanis watched the award ceremony of Kargil Martyrs live on TV organized in Aiwan-e-sadr back in 1999 preside by then president Rafiq Tarar in presence of then prime minister Nawaz sharif. Capt Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan and other soldiers were given awards on the same ceremony.

    Pakistan Government has always maintained that operation was initiated by Kashmiri Mujahidine and Pakistan army has to intervene and capture advance mountain posts in response of resulting Indian buildup across line of control.

    BTW how did you respected dead Indian soldiers of Kargil, by taking kickbacks on their coffins !!??

    its good your media cooks good stories to satisfy your eternal hate against Pakistan, but please don’t lie about Pakistan in a Pakistani forum, it only makes us lough and pity you guys :) Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui
    Nov 19, 2010 - 8:58PM

    @Tony Singh

    Neither Pakistan will vacate nor China will hand over their part of Kashmir. these Kashmir will always remain peaceful and stable. Yes offcourse Indian occupied Kashmir has been, is and will remain a problem, this problem will be fixed if not sooner then later.

    Yes India did earned few additional bucks since last 20 years by cheap export of labor and has offered her full services to US against china; this may cause a delay but will not stop the solution of Indian occupied kashmir.Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui
    Nov 19, 2010 - 9:19PM

    @Anoop

    Your Comment of the day :)

    “our (India) debts are well below our Foreign Reserves which are about a $Trillion now.”

    OH MAN! your definition of India’s ‘great progress’ is not complete! you forget to mention those 2 ‘lucky’ Indians who are now among worlds top 5 richest people and almost 50% ‘unlucky’ Indian population living worst life then sub-Saharan African countries, despite being largest producer of food India host largest pool of malnutrition children and ranks much below Pakistan, Bangladesh even Nepal.

    We have big Indian brains blowing their minds and disusing the future of Pakistan, suggesting Pakistanis what they should and should not think, telling Pakistanis about their version of 1948,1965,1971 and Kargil wars. e.t.c

    But fact is that these Indian don’t know how to feed their kids :) Recommend

  • G.Khan
    Nov 19, 2010 - 9:30PM

    @ Tony Singh.
    Who were the perpetrators and why those culprits are still at large? Why not Justice has been served to your own Community Mr. Singh after so many years in the biggest democracy of the world?Why Punjab Police did thousands of fake encounters in which thousands and thousands of Sikh Youth slaughtered? Why Tony Singh? From where these untrial Killing orders Generated? Who gave such orders? Why Jagdish Tytler still at large and not behind the bars and I never heard you saying a single word about that? Instead of counting other’s deads, first start counting your own and by the hands of your very own majority and both Political parties? Do you have courage to stand up to that Tony Singh? Why is that that You don’t see the sufferings of your own community Tony Singh? whatever the case is, I would be glad if that researh of yours would have been for the benefits of your own community. Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 20, 2010 - 7:23AM

    @G.Khan, nobody is saying India is perfectly equitable. Neither is Pakistan. I could raise the Balochistan issue, where the people of the richest province in terms of natural resources live a life of poverty and their leaders are brazenly assassinated. But that is your internal problem and I have no business commenting on it. We are discussing India vis-a-vis Pakistan here.Recommend

  • Muhammad Saeed Akhter
    Nov 20, 2010 - 9:34AM

    @ Khalid Ahmed most of the comments displayed suggest that no body seems to be ready to listen sane people. God bless you !Recommend

  • Nov 20, 2010 - 10:48AM

    @Nadim Sidiquiof Australia

    Pakistan always accepted it occupied some mountain posts on indian side of kargil to have a better stretegic position in case of indian invasion.

    To put it very politely: According, to a study carried out by Cambridge University “Eight years after the event, Pakistan still officially maintains that freedom fighters and not the Northern Light Infantry conducted the cross LOC intrusion. Former President Musharraf states in his 2006 memoir that the, “freedom fighting mujahideen occupied the Kargil heights that the Indian army had vacated for the winter.”

    Full document at

    http://assets.cambridge.org/97805217/67217/excerpt/9780521767217_excerpt.pdf

    I know that citizens of the Islamic Republic have a strong allergy to facts, at best they are apathetic to verifying the truth. But as you claim to be in Australia now, I suppose you have access to sources of information other than the Friday lecture at the local masjid. My suggestion to you would be to visit the site above and also to read the relevant portions of your ex-President’s hagiography, and then come back with verifiable evidence supporting your claim of Pakistan officially accepting a role for its army in Kargil right from the beginning.Recommend

  • RR
    Nov 20, 2010 - 12:48PM

    In India As a former Hindu i call my religion ( and indeed all religions) as nonsense and fairy tales . I have adopt science / technology/ abstract thinking and logic as my “new religion”

    In my new religion “anything and everything can be question, debated , rationally evaluated before being accepted”

    I have taken inspiration from “Akbar the Greats” Din A Illa hi. Why don’t the intellectuals of India and Pakistan combine together to from a separate nation ( separate from religions morons of both sides )

    Even if 20,000 individuals combine together from both sides and create a cyber world…..it could have the potentiality of changing the future of the region and the world.

    Indian and Pakistan are exactly the same ………same genetic DNA ticking in both under the garb of different religions……..the only and only reason why India is getting wealthier ( although massive inequalities in distribution of wealth exist) is the laze- fare approach to religion ( Hinduism in particular) ……Recommend

  • Elvis
    Nov 20, 2010 - 2:31PM

    Seems to me that a lot Pakisatinis are not aware of the UN resolution passed on Aug 13th 1948.

    The United Nations passed the United Nations Security Council Resolution 47 asking Pakistan to withdraw all its forces from Kashmir. This was to be followed by a plebscite to determine the wishes of people of the entire state of Kashmir. However the required withdrawal never happened,. As a result the plebscite never happened.

    80% kashmiris in India are happy with India. It is only a minority that wants freedom. If Pakistan wants freedom for Kashmir, they should set an example by withdrawing from POK and creating a truly independent Kashmir in POK.

    Why does Pakistan want Kashmir. So that they can gift it to China bit by bit. First Shaksgam Valley and now Gilgit- Baltistan.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 21, 2010 - 2:41PM

    The comments by Indians here only confirm that there can be no peace between India and Pakistan. And it just adds to our defence concerns which I believe are on the right track. This is a true mindset you indians have unveiled here exists in the majority population. All talks of human rights and shining India is trashed when Kashmir is mentioned. This is your biggest paradox.

    Anyway, in a matter of a few years India will be mostly ruled by maoists/naxalites – who already rule 40% of her area. The rest by big multinational corporations who will expolit cheap indian labour for a few measly bucks. It would be better for your collective health, if you focus on your own country rather than being obsessed by Pakistan. I know its a tough ask, as Pakistan remains a thorn in your backside and will continue to be for time to come. Recommend

  • Nov 21, 2010 - 9:50PM

    @Waqas

    Pakistan remains a thorn in your backside and will continue to be for time to come.

    Brother, you are being very modest. You are a major pain in the backside of the entire world including the Islamic lands.No,no don’t believe me believe Mr Zafar Hilaly ex-ambassador who has this to say,

    And how can the pretext of national interest make what is bad, good; wrong, right and sin a holy act unless society had developed warped values?
    The world knows that we nurtured the monster that now threatens to devour us. Moreover, our confidence that the extremists can neither cow the government nor subvert the people’s loyalty to the state may appear reassuring but for others it’s a bit like whistling in the dark. Our success in combating terror has been mixed at best; nor is final victory assured.

    Full article in The News of today at. Happy self discovery.
    http://thenews.com.pk/21-11-2010/opinion/16501.htmRecommend

  • G.Khan
    Nov 21, 2010 - 11:20PM

    @ Pradeep Singh “nobody is saying India is perfectly equitable. Neither is Pakistan. I could raise the Baluchistan issue, where the people of the richest province in terms of natural “……

    No, Pradeep Singh , You can not raise this point at all. Logic is very simple. Here is why not

    1) You have more than 300 million , again 300 millions who live well below poverty line. If you want to take such position , you must take that position for them first. Period. No ifs and buts. Because they will kill you if you go and become Mahatma Gandhi for somebody else while they starve and die.

    2) What You have been doing with Kashmiri Muslims for the last 63 years , do you think you can keep any ethical position in Muslim world? are you aware of 45,000 or more innocent kashmiris are assassinated by your own security force in Kashmir so far and You have a face to talk about Baloch leaders? Go and check on your massive violation of Human Right abuses in Kashmir. Should I remind you of Golden Temple demolishing and Sikh genocide of 1984 by the Hindu terrorists? Or rather Gujarat massacre of Muslims where more than 2000 or more perished ? Or a christian holocaust in southern India? Do you think you have right to lecture others when your state carry out state terrorism against the minorities? Where is Jagdish Tytler and why he is at large? When will he be punished . May be never. This is what you Are Pradeep Singh. let’s come out of that hypocrisy and beating drums for baloch rights when you violate thousands of time daily those rights in India for minorities. What Israel done to Palestinians is obvious and how Israel is treated in Muslim world is no mystery to anyone.

    3) WOW, So it is the Hidden treasures under Baluchistan that you are interested in? Not the Baloch rights. I want to remind you it is part ( Muslim not Hindu) part of Pakistan. Its better your Govt. understand that specially when Americans and NATO are pulling out of Afghanistan.

    I must remind you that your country is 8 time in size of Pakistan population. I never saw a nation of your size comparing itself with a neighbor 8 times smaller than itself. It’s a pity you always come and compare with us. Do you have courage to look at your northern neighbor. By the way, so much love you have started feeling for Baluchistan all of a sudden then if we keep this logic then what will happen if China started feeling the same love for its border territories in India on which it at least have legitimate claims.

    Afghanistan , Pakistan and Iran all are Muslim countries and none of them wants foreign presence on their borders. Afghans are fighting Americans for that control. If you will dream venturing , come and have fun in the Graveyard of Empires. People like you are millions in India who keep such opinions, which make me to believe even more stronglyRecommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 22, 2010 - 11:47AM

    @ Vikas

    I guess you’re getting nightmares about Pakistan. Very conveniently, you choose to ignore all what is wrong with your country, while you find anything and everything wrong with Pakistan

    What you don’t realize is that in Pakistan we discuss and put across our ideas very candidly without being subjective to intellectual blackmail by our security agencies and intelligentsia. So a person like Arundhati Roy is outcast and subjected to threats and blackmail. Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 23, 2010 - 6:35AM

    **> I guess you’re getting nightmares

    about Pakistan**
    @Waqas, you have obviously been a frog in the well for far too long. Do you realize where your country stands today? It is busy giving itself ‘nighmares’. If it isn’t for the largesse of the US and EU, that ‘nighmare’ would have turned to reality a long while back. Stretch out that bowl, you never know who might drop the next penny.

    Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 23, 2010 - 9:59PM

    @ Pardeep

    I ask you the same question, do you realize where India stands? Do you realize what is happening in the hole you live in and you are worried about my well? While you Indians continue to be obsessed by Pakistan, 40% of india is under Naxalite control and its expanding!

    Do you realize there might not be any India anymore for you to boast about other than Delhi and Mumbai. Stop giving us lectures, we know what is good for us.Recommend

  • Pardeep Singh
    Nov 24, 2010 - 6:40AM

    @Waqas, you totally got me pal. I have to throw in the towel and admit that Pakistan is the fastest growing economy in the world and the most progressive. I hope you guys have a few billions to spare for poor India. Gee… you guys are insightful – nothing gets past you, does it? Let’s end this banter on that note. Recommend

  • Anoop
    Nov 24, 2010 - 10:17AM

    @Waqas,

    Just because Taliban are present in Karachi you dont say they control Karachi. Same with India.

    I dont know where you got that figure of 40%, I am guessing from some lowly hate-mongering Urdu Newspaper. There is a difference between controlling an area and an area affected by Naxalites or their presence.

    Can you show me any independent journal which says 40% of India is under their control?

    If we go by your definition of things then we can safely say that the whole of Pakistan is under Taliban control.

    Stop blabbering and back up your accusations. You are an embarrassment to your country.Recommend

  • Anoop
    Nov 24, 2010 - 4:47PM

    @Waqas,

    Man, have a look at one of the articles. It goes,”In practice, the 40-year-old insurgency is thought to have a presence in as many as half of India’s 28 states “.

    So, by your theory presence equals control. Al-Qaeda’s #2 was caught in Karachi, so Karachi is under Al-Qaeda control.

    But, Maoists do control 92,000 square kilometers of area but this area is predominantly thick jungle. Maoist phenomena is not new its been around for 40 years as one of your articles explain.

    They are motivated by economics rather than Ideology, like the Taliban are. Their grievances is with the state and not the people. They would for example not blow themselves up to kill Civilians like the Taliban here do every week.

    I am well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the state. India has a solid foundation which cannot be brought down. Compare this with Pakistan which in the last 63 years hasn’t been able to decide which system of governance it needs and wants.

    And, I think before you give Wikipedia links. Even I can go and edit those articles to my liking. Most often than not they are outdated when it comes to current affairs.

    Just compare the number of people killed in 2009 alone due to Ideological reasons and compare it with India to get an idea. 3000 people got killed in 2009 in Pakistan. More this year, plus drone attacks is a HUGE figure.Recommend

  • Nov 24, 2010 - 11:17PM

    @Waqas

    What you don’t realize is that in Pakistan we discuss and put across our ideas very candidly without being subjective to intellectual blackmail by our security agencies and intelligentsia. So a person like Arundhati Roy is outcast and subjected to threats and blackmail.

    Is there any end to your appetite for self deception. Have you heard of a gentleman called Faiz Ahmad ‘Faiz’. Find out what hapened to his ‘candid’ putting out of free ideas. Does Fatima Jinnah ring a bell find out what hapened to her when she spoke against the Field Marshal. And while you are doing so check up on Mujibur Rehman, Prime Minister elect and Z A Bhutto, Prime Minister deposed , of Pakistan.
    And I do recall ISI (WIDELY BELIEVED TO BE SECURITY AGENCY) filing a statemenmt in Pakistan Supreme Court aacepting interference in domestic politics.
    And do also read up on Deobandi and Balelvis threatening against ‘Prsidential Pardon ‘ to Aasia Bibi.

    And once you find out if even an FIR has been registered against Arundhati Roy , come back and we will discuss, civil liberties and fundamental rights.

    http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/faiz.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_JinnahRecommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 26, 2010 - 9:34AM

    @ Vikas

    Do you know what happened to Mr. Gandhi? Who killed him and why? How Ms Roy is threatened? This is the real face of your human rights, which is hardly anything to write home about and you’re worried about Pakistan? It would help if you take your head of the sand. And for your consumption here is some more:

    http://www.achrweb.org/reports/india/AR09/AR2009.pdf
    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/sca/119134.htm
    http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/india/kashmir-protests-background-page/page.do?id=1721042
    http://www.minorityrights.org/5648/india/india-overview.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Staines

    With such a miserable record, you have lost any right to lecture Pakistan.I wish you stay focussed on what is happening within India and try to correct it rather than your endless obsession with Pakistan.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 26, 2010 - 10:14AM

    @ Anoop

    I will enjoy this now. So what you’re telling me is that its a 40 yr old problem, they only rule jungles, they are motivated by economics, they are not anti people, which makes them better than Taliban!!

    Does it make an insurgency ‘better’ if it is economically or ideologically based? I have yet to see this analysis. If today Kashmiris start an insurgency economically based, will you have the same comments for them as well? Do you know what is Taliban’s ideology – stated and real? because i really have no idea, can you fill me in here? Economics is the basis of any insurgency and can not be run without it.

    And for your information, wikipedia links i pasted were only 2 out of 7. But I think your eyes didnt see anything else than wikipedia?

    Can you support your comment that India has a solid foundation? any references to support this view. And time and time again, you only compare India with Pakistan, knowing that you can not compare apples and oranges. Why don’t you compare India with any other country of your choice which is on a comparable level, say China!!Recommend

  • Anoop
    Nov 26, 2010 - 4:02PM

    @Waqas,

    You are putting words into my mouth. I never said my insurgency is better than yours. You are talking as if Naxalism is an existential threat to India, and I was just debunking your theory.

    With India’s economic growth those economic grievances will also vanish. But, ideological issues are not the same. And, Taliban are an existential threat to Pakistan.

    “Can you support your comment that India has a solid foundation?”

    –> India has a Secular, clear Constitution and consequently laws. The 3 arms of Democracy- Judiciary, Executive and Legislature are very efficient and stable. There has been no Army takeover in India and unlike Pakistan, we have not been ruled for more than half our existence as a free country under a Military regime. Even now the Military Regime is the only institution that matters.

    “Why don’t you compare India with any other country of your choice which is on a comparable level, say China!!”

    –> On economic matters a little comparison can be made but structurally and sociologically we are poles apart. For one, there is no such thing as Democracy in China and India celebrates all that is free.

    China is a export oriented economy while India’s growth is more driven by its own citizens.

    But, both are massive economies, follow similar liberalization policies and reforms with the economy. Both have a 1 Billion plus population. Both are expected to have combined GDP more than the whole world put together when fully developed.Recommend

  • Waqas
    Nov 28, 2010 - 12:54PM

    And once you find out if even an FIR has been registered against Arundhati Roy , come back and we will discuss, civil liberties and fundamental rights.

    @ Vikas check this link, and eat your words. Do you want to debate this with me now?

    http://www.indiatalkies.com/2010/11/book-geelani-arundhati-delhi-court.html

    Are you ashamed of your country now, or do you want me to show you some more reality? Recommend

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