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Can we change our ‘hate-India’ mindset?
The title “Can we change our ‘hate-India’ mindset?” was deceptive as the piece was more about Bangladesh...
ayesha.siddiqa@tribune.com.pk
I must confess that the title of Air-Vice Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry’s piece “Can we change our ‘hate-India’ mindset?” was deceptive as it was more about Bangladesh than India. It also raised expectations, that perhaps the retired air marshal had re-thought the basic framework which drives hatred for India in this country. Instead, I came across a rambling piece regarding the use of a Bangladesh model, which is very popular amongst the Pakistani pro-establishment circle, to bring about internal changes in the country.
The article inferred that development in the country, as in the case of Bangladesh, would help get rid of our anti-India policy. To say the least, this sounds like an absolutely incorrect reading of the past, present and even the future. Bangladesh and Pakistan are different — as one of the main political players in Dhaka, the Awami League, traditionally has good ties with India. This is mainly because part of the Bangladeshi military, the Mukti Bahini freedom fighters, is indebted to India. Ziaur Rehman’s BNP under the leadership of his wife Khalida Zia, on the other hand, had relatively better ties with Pakistan. This could also be due to the fact that Bangladesh’s General Zia was part of the repatriated officers who form a bulk of Bangladesh military’s officer corps.
In Bangladesh, the common man, especially those in the border areas, dislikes India more than Pakistanis due to border skirmishes between the two neighbours, and other issues including smuggling of cattle and water. The reason such popular opinion does not translate automatically into more conflict is because, unlike in Pakistan, Bangladeshi governments are not willing to use this negative opinion to their political advantage.
As for the Bangladeshi model of political change that Mr Chaudhry and others of his ilk so like, it was a top-down change envisioned by the country’s middle class. However, it did not manage to weed out the political actors it so wanted to. Nor has the Grameen Bank model brought real change in Bangladesh. In fact, it was later discovered that the bank was deceptive in reporting its financial performance. More recent research, some of which can be read in the autumn issue of the South Asian magazine Himal, shows that Yunus’s was a neo-liberal approach which increased indebtedness of the local community without increasing profits because too many people were doing the same thing through micro-credit loans. However, since the collateral was indirect, people tended to waste money rather than put it to good use.
Had Mr Chaudhry looked deeper, he might have discovered two broad reasons for why Bangladesh has performed better than Pakistan. Despite the high polarisation of the Bangladeshi state and society, they are largely committed to a secular identity. Although the majority of people are Muslims there have never been claims of the country being the fortress of Islam which can only be defended militarily. The separation of religion from politics provides a healthy space in which faith can grow and allow people to coexist.
To Bangladesh’s advantage, its military’s initial structure was not professional despite the fact that the bulk of its officers were those repatriated from Pakistan. This meant that the military continued to be less Machiavellian in the initial part of the country’s history. Although the army conducted two coups, it could also be pushed out because it had not managed to create a powerful national narrative that was based on inciting fear and gathered people around the armed forces.
The fact of the matter is that India-hatred is the raison d’être of Pakistan’s security apparatus. This, in isolation, is not wrong since all militaries are designed to respond to an external threat. The main problem is that like the Prussian army, our military has become larger than life and continues to paddle anti-Indianism as the nation’s driver. Under the circumstances, many like Shahzad Chaudhry may privately or publicly confess to anti-Indianism, posing a problem for economic growth, but fail to offer a solution. Settlement of outstanding disputes alone may not solve the problem — the solution of disputes itself is linked with a change in perception.
Published in The Express Tribune, October 24th, 2010.
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Reader Comments (76)
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Too many in the military-industrial complex have too much too lose, in terms of resources which are quantifiable. Those who would gain for any improvement in Pakistan-India relations have little to offer but a promise of some future, unquantifiable gain. Better to keep the hate-going. Hate is sexy, its keeps everyone in line, it makes for good news reels, while at the same time hate and the prospect of a better future both help to maintain the status-quo on the one hand while keep critics in check on the other.
Not to mention that in Bangladesh the bloody civilians arnt that accustomed to accepting diktats from the military without question. Only yesterday many were injured protesting the development of military housing scheme without proper compensation, anything sound familiar, minus the outrage? http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2010/10/23/world/international-us-bangladesh-violence.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rssRecommend
As an Indian, the idea of a non-India-hating Pakistan sounds wonderful, but I wonder if it would be a good thing. I have never been to Pakistan, but from what I gather from the news, it sounds like there isn’t much common factor across Pakistan other than hating India. In a way, it serves to hold the country together. This is valuable, much as it sucks for India. Until there is some alternative focused on as a country that can weave people together, I suspect that giving up hatred of India could fragment an already fragmented country. I doubt if this could be better for either India or Pakistan than the current hatred, which can be expressed as politics and boundaries with minimal disruption to daily life. Also, what would the jihadis do? If we look at Indo-Pak (ah, that ghastly hyphenation) as a regional entity, the jihadi elements are currently being destroyed in the least damaging manner – with sacrifices in Indian troops, yes, but little damage to either society. Stopping them would create massive backlash in Pakistan, which in turn can’t be a good thing for India. I don’t remember where I read it, but some western writer had written that the easiest way for India to destroy Pakistan would be to give up Kashmir and end the national narrative. So, much as I admire your insight, and I have no doubt you are absolutely correct, I wonder if it is practical in today’s circumstances.Recommend
The first reason to hate India is that Indian government could not amicably solve the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan for more than 6 decades.
The other reason to hate India is that India helped Mukti Bahini to create Bangladesh on the world map in 1971.
It is difficult for the Pakistanis to change their mindset about India unless India seriously talk with Pakistan in settling all disputes including the core dispute of Jammu and Kashmir and apologise to the government and people of Pakistan for creating Bangladesh in 1971.
India should surrender the occupied Kashmir to the people of Jammu and Kashmiri where uncounted innocent people have died during the last 64 years and let the Kashmiris make their own government in the occupied Kashmir.Recommend
“This could also be due to the fact that Bangladesh’s General Zia was part of the repatriated officers who form a bulk of Bangladesh military’s officer corps.”
Ziaur Rahman is the person who formally declared Independence of Bangladesh and you say he was repatriated army men. Please read history before writing somethingRecommend
How precise! I agree “they” will never let us shed this perception of fear.If you think India is not our enemy, you are a TRAITOR.Full Stop.
Just as the “mosque” is the mullah’s business place,or better “Rozi roti ka adda”,here in Pakistan, “Kashmir” is our military’s “Rozi roti ka adda”.We are so unfortunate that now that the world (and maybe some hard realities) have forced us to not talk much on Kashmir,”THEY’d” still have us believe that India is our eternal enemy and so on.
We are fool if we expect any militaryman,retired or otherwise,to give us a solution to this.
I really love your clear-headed analyses,ma’am!Recommend
What is this Bangladesh model. The problem for Pakistan is corruption and lack of justice. Fix it and other things will follow. Please don’t try to divert focus. India hatred would go away when India solves the issues with Pakistan. Army has a function to perform and they should restrict their activities to defense. Stop listening to foreign agents.Recommend
Excellent, credible article. General Kiyani is in Washington DC talking to the US for further assistance, will it ever stop? Not in my lifetime.Recommend
In terms of human history six decades is nothing.
Indian civilisation has lasted nearly 5000 years. However this does not mean India was one sovereign country …through out the centuries India has been virtually run over by invasion upon invasion via religions,cultures you name it all.The central core of Indianness has remained through out the South Asian subcontinent despite the creation of new Nations with new names previously there was Kalinga,Magadh,Vijayanagar etc today it is Pakistan and Bangladesh etc..In other words history will swallow these Identities with flow of the time but India or to be less offensive the Indianness will remain so long as the humanity continues.
Our problem is that we are getting sucked in quite often with the present nationalistic ideologies forgetting the fact that we are the children of one civilisation regardless of creation of sub political and religious pseudo identities. Our food our dress codes moral issues like the human code of conduct. so much so that our public quarreling have been the same that was 5000 years ago.
If you look at that time span than one would surely come to realise that against time measured history Kashmir problem is nothing but a silly argument paraded by and deliberately fuelled mainly by political establishments to sustain their hold on ordinary people.To a certain degree neither the sovereign nations of both India and Pakistan have the capacity to ride out this status quo for another six decades simply because other more important problems are bound to erupt during the next six decades and not necessarily between the two countries as they are today..
There is a possibility that the whole sub continent might go back to the 500 little kingdoms considering the new trend of dynastic politics of the last two decade.
There is also a possibility that Indian economic and technological development progress could start a new beginning of federating the whole sub continent into one huge common market like the EU model.
Whatever the case the present phase of false nationalism based on hatred will never last the historical course of the remaining time of the Great Indian civilisation which has the time tested durability of one hundred times the six decades that have just passed.
Therefore it is safe and easy to say this time that I know what the past was..I know what the present is ..and I know what the future is going to be..All we now need is an army of thinkers and scholars to tow a path for generation next to change the course of history of our long long running civilisation which anyway has happened before and will happen again..time waits for no one.Peace can be achieved provided we accept that we are just the temporary guests appearing in this vast time controlled episode of Human History on this planet called the Earth. We should be grateful for the privilege granted by the mother nature to be a part of it. Let us all contribute to that by positive action of promoting peace and harmony starting with our immediate neighborhoods within our own nations.
Regards and God bless
Viren NaikRecommend
India has then ruined Pakistan just by being there. Pakistani military has used this fear of India to promote its agendas and maintain control over Pakistan.
Pakistani military foolishly claims as long as India has hold over Kashmir it is a threat. But, what they dont tell you is that a power like India will never let go of a huge and resource filled piece of land at any cost. It can happen only when the majority in India will favour it but that, we can safely say, will never happen.
So, Pakistan is stuck in this vicious cycle being fed by its own military. I dont see this changing.
Pakistan will remain politically, militarily and economically stagnant for many years to come. Culturally it may even travel backwards as well as economically.Recommend
With due respect… Can you write anything without anti army mindset?Recommend
YES,
We can change the mindset if we be the realist.
Like, Traffic Jamming and race on the roads if every people should be th responsible and feel responsibility not formality.Recommend
While I don’t completely agree with the reasons attributed to Bangladesh’s success, the “hate-India” strategy is outmoded and increasingly irrelevant to Pakistan’s future. That slogan has lost its ability to fool people, despite the few who still subscribe to it. By now, most people in Pakistan know that the enemy is not across the border, it is among us. We need to confront our own demons and focus on nation building if we are to survive as a nation. So far Pakistan’s self-centered political leaders, and religious zealots have been far more effective in destablizing the country than any cross-border enemies.
For the most part, India has moved on. Pakistan is no longer a threat and the world has accepted India as a global player able to stand on its own feet. Not only is the growth rate second only to China, it survived the financial crisis without resorting to its begging bowl. Its industrialists are global players in steel, telecommunications, software and many more sectors. Even in sports its own cricket innovations are more lucrative than that of the rest of the world. Sure they have numerous challenges to overcome, including rural poverty and regional insurgencies. But they have built a good economic and institutional base to address them over time. Pakistan, in the meanwhile, is still stuck in a stage where power, whether in the hands of the civilian or military leadership, is the primary source of wealth creation.
Once in a while, those who want to divert attention from the actual challenges facing the nation will dust off and wave the “anti-Indian” banner although in the past few years that has been replaced by the “anti-US” banner. Again a convenient way of externalizing blame for our own inability to apply some of the fundamental principles of nation-building and state-building – the separation of the state from religion, the separation of powers between the different organs of the state, a social contract based on equal rights for all citizens, and accountability and responsiveness of the rulers to their people, and a willingness to learn from history and take responsibility for the misadventures of the Pakistani state, rather then denying or justifiying them in Bangladesh, Afghanistan, or Kargil. It is time to put our own house in order.Recommend
Respected Madam,
Hatred for India along with Islam has become a cohesive force for the fabric that is Pakistan. It is difficult to imagine a Pakistani state without these two important factors. Pakistan has avoided implosion of its state till now only because the citizens have Islam and Hate India outlook in common.
It is difficult to compare the socio-political strata of Pakistan with that of Bangladesh because of the tremendous differences that have developed between the two states. The Bangladeshi society, while being more secular in outlook is majorly a tolerant one. For them, military or the armed forces have a responsibility of protecting the state, not administering the state. While on the other hand, the armed forces of Pakistan enjoy a greater legitimacy in the eyes of the general public than its politicians do!
Your argument against Grameen bank, however factual, falls on deaf ears as people at least have a source of Inspiration or an ideal whose footsteps they can follow. There is a sense of responsibility and hardwork among the bangladeshi people unlike the pakistanis who have been robbed of their inspiration as their role models are caught taking bribes for fixing the matches!Recommend
ayesha and the likes….Please Just give us one goos reason,why should we start loving India.Recommend
I havent read the article and dont plan to either, reason being that the Majority of Pakistani’s DONT have a ‘hate-india’ mindset. Isn’t India all up in our living rooms? bollywood…..Recommend
Madam Ayesha –
Most of the Pak analysis suffers from peculiar paranoid of criticizing positives of an opponent. This is also evident when you try to find fault in micro-economic models of Bangladesh, its social polarization on religious lines, considering Bangladesh differently due to their ties with India or considering them indebted to India. The entire progress of a nation is linked to their Army structure or the absence hardliner approach in Islamic thoughts. The religious faith is personal to everyone and a person who follows his faith religiously is hardliner of his faith. He may also be a very good scholar of other faiths. A hardliner is not always an extremist, terrorist, preacher or propagator of his faith. The analysis smacks as if Bengali Muslims are less followers of Islam as compared to Pakistani’s and that is why they have support from India. Please correct me if I am wrong?
Please realize that this is the same citizenry which was part of Pakistan 40 years back. Bengal was also hotbed of bloodshed during partition and scars of division are quite deeper in either side of Bengal. For me a Muslim of Bangladesh is probably better follower of Islamic thoughts than his Pakistani counterpart. Bangladesh as on date is an Islamic country. Yes, its citizenry is not far away from its cultural heritage and that is secularism. Secularism (sarva dharm sambhav) is heritage of this civilization to which we all belong and faith in teachings of Islam is also part of it. Building a society based on single religion takes the people of this civilization away from their heritage and that is the dilemma Pakistan is facing today. When Bangladesh inserted Article 2A in its constitution in 1988 it also started suffering from the same dilemma. It is still struggling to come out of it.
The analysis suffers from same racial superiority complex which was the cause of division of Pakistan 40 years back. It is the same Army of Pakistan on East and West fronts in 1971. If so, than how do you conclude that Bangladesh’s initial military structure was not professional or it was Machiavellian …??? By calling Bengali army man Machiavellian you are questioning their patriotism for which they are known world over. To my opinion the Bangladesh Army is coming out of Machiavellianism of which it was part.Recommend
If you see from a Bangladeshi’s point of view, the West Pakistan’s political structure in 1971 was un-democratic, non-law abiding and deceitful and its Army Structure was oppressive, barbaric and unprofessional who could not sense the public anger. It also could not sense the training and armed support Bengali refugee or their Mukti Bahini can get from your enemy country like India. Is that you call the professionalism of Army? Whether, an Army conducting more coups, interfere more in civil structure is more professional in your eyes? I feel we have the different yardsticks of professionalism?Recommend
This is some brilliant analysis!Recommend
The title and subject of this piece should have been, “Can we change our hate mindset”. We think it is our religious duty to hate Christians, Jews, Ahmedis, Hindus etc. If we get out of this, we will stop hating.Recommend
I agree with ‘Indian’ that the best solution for both countries is to manage the hate – on the scale it is. As Indians it has been confusing – the sheer hospitality that one experienced during the cricket matches in pakistan and the gun toting 10 terrorists in Mumbai. I suppose as an Indian (and as a pakistani) we would want neither overwhelming love or bloody hatred. An emotion-free, profit-driven trade is the best solution with Kashmir on the back-burner for future more prosperous generations to solve.Recommend
Separate state and religion as done in Bangladesh and prosper.Recommend
Pakistan cannot economically progress till it has friendly relations with India & start trading with our immediate neighbor. It’s that simple & easy to understand!Recommend
I read article in The Dawn in regards to Strategic dialogue between Pakistan and USA, where most of the time was spent in discussing India. No doubt one commentator pointed that, is Mr Qureshi Foreign min of India?
Another good opportunity lost by Pakistan.It is known fact that all developed countries have succeeded, due to their very close business ties with USA, be it Japan, Germany, Brazil, Taiwan and lately China. India is also trying to do the same. Pakistan should create climate where, they can have more trade with countries like USA, India and of course China.
The world is moving on and is not waiting for any one. It is known fact that, India now carries a lot of weight and is better heard than Pakistan.
Vexed issues can be solved in no time, if there is a will to do.
Old habits die hard, but once it dies, life is much better than the past. India is no saint, but by virtue of goos business decisions, people have lot of opportunity, be in business of other wise. Lot of scope for educated people in India and very little time for hate mongering.Recommend
I agree with Prasad,in case of our countries national sentiments swing from extreme hate to extreme love,which both are unrealistic.we should live like any other neighbors live.with pragmatic approach only we can prosper.both the extremities are nothing but impractical and hypocrisy.Recommend
same requires for the fundamentalists of both sides. and Pakistan-centric mindset should also be changed at the other side, and South Asia at large.Recommend
Ok dont love India; just reduce the defence budget and stop wasting money on F-16s. We need education and health, nobody is going to invade this barren piece of landRecommend
If you do a dispassionate analysis of our hatred of India, it has brought us nothing but war, violence and poverty. India is developing rapidly as if our hatred and its consequential Kashmir effects has no influence on them. On the other hand Pakistan is sinking rapidly. Bangladesh on the hand has befriended India and has started to develop rapidly. Your writeup is a sensible and timely analysis to remind us of the pitfalls in future and we must change our course. But will military allow this?Recommend
No, because Indians are full of malice towards Pakistanis in particular and Muslims in general. Those who don’t recognize this fact are fools.Recommend
We will love India if they will change their stance on us. 80% Indians hate Pakistan, a recent pole by TRIBUNE where as only 33% Pakistanis have similar perception of India.Recommend
My God ! The Indians have swarmed our newspaper and are onto us so much like a pack of hounds ! What is with the Pakistan obsession? Every Pakistani newspaper article I read online has tons of holier-than-thou, high and mighty Indian nationalists trying to tell Pakistanis what to do. Do you lot realize your attitude alone gives us little reason to let go of our guard? I mean, just the condescending tone alone is irritating enough. ” I have never been to Pakistan but I KNOW that India hatred is the only commonality amongst Pakistanis.” WOW ! I thought I had seen enough fools in Pakistan but dear lord, if this is the standard of intellect and the extent of tolerance across the border, then I am happy 1947 happened. You lot are as scary as the Taleban, just different in the mode of ‘attack.’
I would respectfully suggest the super holy, incapable of any wrongdoing, near-perfect Indian commentators here to please raise the same level of furore over the Samjhota Express massacre and for the love of god, ask your government to apprehend the criminals involved.
You don’t us to hate you? Don’t act like you are some kind of god’s gift on earth, learn more about other cultures and people thoroughly and give them respect.Recommend
Main problem is our so-called Ideology of Pakistan having its roots in Hindu Hatred, host of sections of our society rather individuals has made fortune by mongering Hindu phobia. If we want to change this mindset, it will definitely be at the cost of our so-called ideology of Pakistan that we cherish to much.Recommend
Bangash, Even if what you say were to be true it doesn’t make them responsible for the current state of Pakistan. Nor are they going to solve Pakistan’s problems. That burden cannot be externalized.Recommend
@Dar..I do not think Pakistan should start loving India. Pakistan should just ignore India and get on with the task of taking care of its own people and fixing its economy. India has enough problems of its own to start worrying about Pakistans.
India is major part of the global economy and the world realises the huge opportunities they have in dealing with India.
There are only two ways that Pakistan can deal with India. One ignore it and second plug into its growing economy to help itself.Recommend
Dr Agha is spot on as usual, very impressive analysis. Her analysis is full of love for Pakistan and its Army because she wants this army to do their rightful job and do not spoil its professionalism by creating and protecting half baked ideologies!Recommend
This hate mindset has destroyed people from both sides. We are neighbours and need to learn to live peacefully. Get rid of these hate mongers from both side especially the religious blackmailers.Recommend
Love the dig at Grameen Bank. If such a bank existed in Pakistan it would have long ago been looted by local tribes and set on fire in the name of whatever movement they decided to follow this week.Recommend
Dear Madam, You have always been a treat to read. But, on this particular article I have a mixed feelings. When you imply that unlike Pakistanis an average Bangladeshi is secular in his/her approach and do not carry any utopian delusions about Islamic glory etc, no one can disagree with you. You are right again in saying that Pakistani establishment’s very existence do revolve around India centric hatred, which allows it to get away with anything.
But, I don’t see any reason in, Pakistan not taking a cue from Bangladesh and follow it’s secular model. It could be difficult to shed India phobia for common Pakistanis, particularly for the army, but, it certainly, falls within the realm of possibility.
During the last few years, going by newspaper comments, blogs etc., I noticed a perceptible change in, at least educated Pakistanis, about their attitude towards India and also the realization of their country’s suicidal fall into the abyss. It should taken as a good sign.
I also disagree on your view that Bangladeshi government or politicians did not try to use anti-India feeling to their advantage. Begum Khalida zia govt. and her party left no stone unturned in creating anti-India frenzy in Bangladeshi masses. Of course, she could not achieve as much success as Pakistani politicians and army could, but, that was mainly because of largely secular nature of Bangladeshi people.Recommend
@SSA, You are truly and badly mistaken. We, Indians are not obsessed with Pakistan, in fact, the opposite is true. The reason you see so many Indians here or anywhere is simply because of the fact that, India is the second largest English speaking country in the world, after the US. In the US there are a little over 251 million (95.81%) people speak English, whereas in India the number is 232 million (23.18%). Soon, we are likely to overtake the US and become largest English speaking nation on earth. India also boasts of having the largest circulated English daily, the Times of India who has staggering readership touching 7.5 million. It’s online version is visited by almost 160 million people from across the globe, again making it the most visited newspaper website in the world.
Let me lit another bulb in your head. Unlike the US the most of the English speakers in India are highly educated with higher IQ levels. That is why you see a huge number of Indian commenting on every subject under the sun. What is the condition of English in Pakistan? If I am right the only English news channel in Pakistan was forced to convert itself into Urdu because of the lack of viewership. Talking less about “Injemami English” is better! Boy! That is unique to Pakistan! You need a decoding expert to understand the incoherent babbling.
I live in the western part of the country and can assure you that other than a few bleeding heart Punjabis, no one in India cares for Pakistan. Yes, Pakistan gained an unprecedented notoriety after sending 10 butchers to Mumbai on 26/11 after which no Mumbaikar or for that matter any Indian true to his salt, can forgive Pakistan.
As for love for India and studying other cultures is concerned, I would advise you to first check Pakistan’s image in the world. Just go to this place :- http://pewglobal.org/2010/10/20/indians-see-threat-from-pakistan-extremist-groups/2/#chapter-1-views-of-pakistan-and-extremism
More than 50 % people from your ‘birader’ countries view Pakistan negatively. And wait! What about your taller than Himalaya friend? Fifty percent of it’s population view you negatively! Only a 30 percent have a positive opinion!Recommend
@Neeraj: plz read the article again. I have indirectly mentioned that the reason Pakistan is different from Bangladesh is because of secularism. Kindly read the reference to not wanting to make Bangladesh a fortress of Islam. I agree that Begum Khalida Zia tried to use anti-India rhetoric also because she had partnered with the Bangladeshi Jamaat-i-Islami. But honestly she could have done more given the displeasure you find amongst the ordinary Bangladeshi for India. Furthermore, to be fair to ordinary Pakistanis they have given in to a state rhetoric or the one created by the media, as it has happened on your side, but they are extremely warm and generous. They can forgive and move on. I suppose this is the same on both sides of the border. Unfortunately, the governments are not capable to rise above their bias and insecurities.Recommend
SSA: Every Pakistani newspaper article I read online has tons of holier-than-thou, high and mighty Indian nationalists trying to tell Pakistanis what to do. Do you lot realize your attitude alone gives us little reason to let go of our guard?
Ha, its not only with you, even the Americans, British and the Australians are fed up of our condescending tone on the blogs. The chinese are spared because they censor comments.Recommend
Yeah. Change the history to reality in your textbooks and give it 10-15 yrs. Oh and stop blaming India, along with US and Israel for each and every one of your problem, too.Recommend
What Rakesh said. Pakistanis need to stop blaming India, US, Israel, Jews, Hindus, The Illuminati, the Freemasons, Rajnikanth, The Dajjal, etc. for all their problems and realize that most of them come from within Pakistan itself.Recommend
Dear Ayesha
I find ur article really interesting.U always write something intersting.I would like to comment on ur thoughts on bangladesh and Pakistan.You are saying that people in border areas of bangladesh hates india.This is only half truth.Majority of bangladeshi muslims hates India.It is in their blood.They are not secular.They are muslim of highest quality.All india muslim league was born in Dacca.The movement of seperate islamic state started from east bengal.The muslims of east bengal were sick and tired of bangali hindus from calcutta.As a pakistani I accept that muslims of east bengal were always more politcally aware then their muslim brothers in west pakistan.Muslims of bengal intially work towards a seperate east bengal state within british Raj and then rallied behind a non bengali Jinnah to get Pakistan.If I buy ur argument that a commom bangladeshi is a secular then they would love to be stayed in greater bengal in so called secular state India.The people of Pakistan and Bangladesh are bound by one common thread that is Islam.It is up to both governments to pave the way of friendship and reconciliation.Both countries will never bow down to hindu majority India.I have not a met a single bangldeshi who likes India.Had Fatima Jinah be elected as president of Pakistan in 1964 we would have remained together,it was just because of ayub and yahya we lost our brothers.Long live Pak bangla Frienship Ameen.Recommend
We are not born to defend Islam world over. Islam is here. Now please move on. we need secular state. we need india as a friend. we are more similiar to india than arabs.Recommend
I have caught onto Ayesha’s article only now, unaware that she has used my name repeatedly to some cause. I have no qualms in her taking on the substance, but she has been in the business long enough to know how to retain civility and how must we focus a debate onto issues rather than the ‘person’ or his “ilk”. Dr Ayesha has been around long enough; in fact it was a pleasure to grant her an interview at her request more than six years back when I was still in the air force and looking after a sensitive assignment. She interviewed me for an hour and a half; and I have since supported her independent opinion against not a very supportive stance of her within the military.
I have always believed all opinions must be aired; these must be heard; and accorded all respect that is due to a mature interaction. We must not be rigid, pre-disposed, presumptive, and never stereotype others. Usually one draws wrong conclusions with all such presumptions.
We should not reach that level of fear and paranoia that one is scared of one’s own shadow. Together, we all, Dr Ayesha and I included, have made this country to be what it is. Sadly for her, it will also take all of us, Dr Ayesha and I included, to take it out from where it stands.
I do not intend to respond to Dr Ayesha in a rejoinder for I respect her and her opinion. I am certain I will catch up with her soon somewhere in Islamabad. Heck, without her knowing I have recommended her very strongly to be in a Discussion group that we have put together under a local Think-Tank’s arrangement. Though that poses me some difficulty for a piece on Civil-Military relations that I intend doing sometime which may incorrectly be perceived as a rejoinder. Even at the cost of giving up on a desired plan, I think I will pend the thought for now.
Cheers all! As for my article, it was what it was; just that in this conspiratorial national mold of ours, we unnecessarily think too deep. Read it for what it is – an assemblage of facts with a view to urge a thought of seeking alternate paradigms. On that Dr Ayesha is not the only one who holds exclusive rights. And yes, self-righteousness and maturity are mostly exclusive in our less than independent intellectual environment.
Best.
Shahzad ChaudhryRecommend
BRIGHT FUTURE THINKING of this region !Recommend
@ SSA,
What about this? 50-60% of all Pakistani Newspaper articles are about India or somewhere touching India. Why then wonder Indians coming here and fill the comments section?!
As a remedy, may be Pakistanis should start filling Indian newspaper comment sections..Recommend
This article is very well-written. Indeed it is not just about India that we need to change our mindset but about everything. We need a paradigm change in our thinking about : excessive spending on defence and civil establishment vs too little on social sectors; spending too much of our time on politics vs other social issues; proportioning all resources to tycoons running textiles and autos industries vs the rest; giving huge subsidies to road and air users as against railways; allowing bureaucrats/Ministers/higher judiciary to live in a different world compared to common people and so on. What we need to do is to benchmark ourselves against the rest of the world (successful countries and not countries like Iran) and try to emulate their policies.Recommend
@Khalid
Religion alone cannot bind nations. Only impact it has is that u have common Holidays. Germany and Rest of Europe are Christians, yet they had two world wars. Look at North Korea and South Korea- war has not been officially declared closed. Taiwan and China, Iran and Iraq’ Go through History and you will find many more examples.
Just to say that being followers of same faith leads to integration of communities is too simplistic. If that were the case, people would not be blowing themselves up along with their coreligionists in your country.
By the way according to you, It seems world hates India and Hindus. May be we dimwitted people fail to notice it. (sarcasm Intended). Still they want to invest in our future.Recommend
I agree with your comments on my views. These may be moderated some. The best is to not let these be a part of the debate. I should let this one go! Hope she will be more careful in the way she treats fellow writers in the future. Maybe the editorial team now need to stand up and explain how the title got changed. My title was clearly – Bangladesh Model? Which one? Had the same been used it would have pacified her unnecessary irritability.Recommend
Shehzad Ch sb: I appreciate you being such a gentleman and glad to know that the title wasn’t yours. As for treating fellow writers – I imagine that you haven’t taken kindly to me questioning your Bangladesh model. I believe I was within my right, like everyone else, to challenge your opinion. I was neither rude nor abusive for you to use the term ‘treat fellow writers’. I am sure you must have heard the earlier argument over Fasi Zaka and George Fulton’s articles as well.It so happens that since we have systematically killed social sciences, people have no option but to write in newspapers. I would have enjoyed a fuller and deeper debate with you but the newspaper is currently the only option. I don’t think there was any disrespect intended unless you consider my act of questioning your wisdom as being rude. In that case, Air Marshal sb I would request you to think again.Recommend
Bavo Ayesha Siddiqa for giving a hammering answer to Ijaz Haider for making unjustified and illogical criticism of your article. Although, we must appreciate difference of opinion but the stature of Dr. Ayesha to stand firm and determined against the military “mind set” is unquestionable. You are the “Asama Jahangir” among most analysts and columnists.Recommend
@ Tony singh
I can not say about other religion but my religion Islam teaches me a lesson of integrity and brotherhood.All muslims of the world living in any country are brothers according to Islam. I will again say this that if ur argument is correct then East bengal should have joined west bengal in 1971 but that did not happened. They left us because of our mistakes I agree but that does not negate Two nation theory,Still Majority of south asian muslims lives outside India(340 million muslims in Pakisan and Bangladesh as compared to 160 million in India)
As far as bomb explosion in Pakistan is concerned it is because of war on terror. These explosions are conducted by our enemies together with 1 percent of brainwashed people.
I have no problem with India.I do not hate India.I got no problem that investment coming in there.Recommend
I quite enjoyed the article Can we change our ‘hate-India’ mindset by Marshal Shahzad Chaudhry.
As for the issue of whether or not the Grameen Bank is beneficial or not I think it would require a much deeper analysis which neither artricles give. Broad generalizations about the work of Grameen bank are misleading.Recommend
@khalid
1.All religions teach brotherhood. Haven’t come across any which does not. But all religions are judged by the way the people following it. (is their any other way? like interpretation of Hinduism as idol worshipping, w/o going into what more there is to it than that). Same way Hindus/ Christians/ Jews/ Budhists… judge the followers of Islamic faith or people who maim and kill in name of Islam.(those one percent people u talk abt are the people world sees as face of Islam)
1. The people of Bangladesh wanted independence from feudal lords of Punjab. The question of merging with West Bengal never arose.
2. Can you interpret the Iran – Iraq eight year war in the context of Muslim brotherhood, or for that matter the recent sale agreement of $60billion worth sale of weapons to KSA, to act as buffer between Isreal and Iran?
3. The point I am trying to make is that religion is not the glue which can integrate a nation. Economics and good governance are the ones.Recommend
Dear Ms Ayesha,
I see this point (of Pakistan being obsessed with India and how it needs to let go off the same) in a lot of articles being written in pakistani english print media. I personally have always believed both India and Pakistan are way too involved with one another, thankfully I feel India has moved on because of the aspirations of its people. However I am curious as to what percentage of people in pakistan are talking about a perception change vis a vis India. The reason is I cannot read urdu and thus miss out on a lot of stuff which can give me a better understanding of what does an average Pakistani feel and where is Pakistan headed?
Regards
PriyaRecommend
@ Khalid,
Sir, you agree that division of Pakistan in 1971, was due to political mistakes made by Pak establishment at that time. You also admit universal islamic brotherhood with Bangladesh. You also know that Sheikh Mujibur Rehman (East Bengal) had won by mojority in 1970-71 elections.
If you have that much brotherhood with Bangladesh and you were one few years back, ask yourself and your leadership as to whether they are agreeable to back merger of Pakistan in Bangladesh? Afterall it is a meeting of two borthers of one family for betterment of both. I will wait for your answer?Recommend
@Priya: The average Pakistani is like the average Indian – we are absorbed in our lives and issues of earning bread and butter to bother with anything else. The hate India stance as the anti-Pakistan stance is governments’. Can I remind you when the Indian team came to play cricket in several cities in Pakistan? People welcomed them with open hearts. You can’t think that such people would bother hating. You might have moved on and our people might have moved on but neither of the establishment has. I have heard former and serving Indian diplomats talk about how irrelevant Pakistan has become for India and yet talk obsessively about Pakistan. The problem is that we actually don’t know each other. Relations can never improve unless we feel relevant to each other. The peace process has always been very elitist. Unless it connects the common man, we will continue to be blackmailed by our states.
@Chadha sb: I don’t know if Mr Khalid will respond or not allow me to say my bit. You are right that the civil war in East Pakistan and now Bangladesh was our own mistake. I don’t think that Bangladeshis want to integrate with us. We have nothing to offer. But the point which is worth remembering about Bangladesh is that it is a proud nation which hates to politically or morally integrate with any bigger neighbor. Bangladeshis hate being reminded by Indians that the country got created due to India’s efforts. The common Bangladeshi hates being dominated. While Pakistan is history for the Bengalis, India is the present and future for them. I hope your government remembers that.Recommend
@ Ayesha ji – I don’t know what is wrong in Indo-Pak relations? Partition has given similar scars to us both at eastern and western borders but trust deficit is only in Indo-Pak relations? We had skirmishes with Bangladesh due to changing course of river tributaries but still we are having good business with them. India has influx of Bangladeshi and at times it also becomes political issue not only in eastern but also in other states, but animosity is not visible. Lot of Bangladeshi professionals attend our seminars and training sessions and even Indians go to study their economy and rural development models. It gives a feeling as if you have met a distant relative.
However, in case of Pakistan this feeling turns into suspicion and make even our next Gen cautious ..?? I can’t explain it properly, I mean, it is as if you love, like and adore a puppy and can’t keep yourself away from it, on the other hand your own fear doesn’t allow you to go near it as it may bite you.Recommend
@Ayesha – I fully agree that the ” people ” of Pakistan and India actually dont know each other. Travel should be as free as it can get. People from Karachi should be able to be in Mumbai for a Friday Night opening of a Shah Rukh Movie and people from Amritsar just drop in at Nankana Sahib. Untill that does not happen , we are chained to ignorance.Recommend
@SK
In my previous posts I have said that people of East bengal were more politically advanced then their brothers in West Pakistan.They know that they can not prosper with west bengal in India that is why they voted for Pakistan.I have no shame in saying this that because of Bengali muslims we got Pakistan.The problem orignates from continous military dictatorships in Pakistan that is why we lost our brothers.As I am living overseas I feel more closer to bangladeshi as compared to a Hindu or sikh from India because of Islam.It is correct we can not merge together but still we can move forward as great friends.Common currency,Defence and foreign Policy could be a new a chapter in Pak Bangla relationship if both governments move forward in right direction.Recommend
@ Tony
Islam is not represented by those one 1 percent people that has to be understand by West.Muslims all over the world are brothers.It is because of certain governments in different islamic countries they suffer as a nation.These governments works on payroll of West.Saadam hussian of Iraq was filly supported by US in Iran Iraq war in 1980s.The people Of Iran Iraq never wanted the War so please dont mix the act of certain governments or dictators with Islam or muslim brotherhood.Recommend
@ Ayesha
Ayesha ghi I respect u a lot.U write on great subjects,but I have to disagree with u here.India is not future of Bangladesh.They dont want them to Prosper as an Independent Nation.Bangladesh has developed some good Ties with China.They are getting defence supplies from China.China is working on deep sea port in Chitagong If I am not wrong both China and BD are working on road links Via Mynamar.Pakistan can also built a very strong relation with BD in both defence and trade.India can never be a friend to muslim dominent country.Its only their interest in certain Gas reserves in Bangladesh.Recommend
@ Khalid:
To my opinion ethnicity, culture and once own pride is more binding force than once religion. The religion is personal to one, whereas ethnicity, cultural ties and pride have social dimensions and make one feel at home. It is worth observing that in faraway place from homeland it is ethnicity and culture which is more binding force as compared to once religion.
In comparison, a Muslim Lahori person will be closer to a Hindu Amritsari Person, as compared to Lahori and Karachi Muslim. Similarly, a Tamilian Hindu will be more closure to a Tamilian Muslim or a north SriLankan, as compared to his closeness to a Hindu Punjabi or Bihari. This is also true for a Bengali Muslim and Hindu when compared to a Bengali vs Malaysian, African or Pakistani Muslim. Probably, this may also be a reason when East and West Pakistan gave preference to ethnicity and culture rather than sticking to religious beliefs in 1971.
For our readers, the analysis of Rakesh Mani published as Editorial in Pak ‘Daily Times’ is also worth reading in this regard at link: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010%5C05%5C20%5Cstory20-5-2010pg3_5Recommend
Thanks for answering my question. I guess I got the answer to this question minutes after posting it, cause I met a villager from my mother’s native who really is so poor that I don’t think even India (forget Pakistan) figures in his daily thoughts. Only people with their bellies full have the time to contemplate. I agree with you that the problem is we don’t know each other. I read in a book recently that if you fear something or are biased against someone, the only way to get rid of the same is to know that thing/person better. Say a person dislikes gays, he/she should spend more time with gays to understand that they are not really all that different from us. I think the same applies to us Indians and Pakistanis and especially those people whose comments I read which are full of spite be it for indians or pakistanis or americans or gays or jews or muslims. I mean seriously can anyone in their right mind think all Indians/ Pakistanis/ Muslims/ Hindus are bad…Recommend
@khalid
1. It is impossible to convience a person of the reality, when a person has made up his/her mind. Its like a person saying crow is white. Try to convience him/her it is black and his reply would be for me its white. Same is the case with you. As far as the world sees, Economic interdependence is a much more binding glue than any religion. Its bonds are thicker than blood in most cases.Recommend
@Khalid sb: I would still insist that India is Bangladesh’s present and future in terms of their territorial relevance. What they do with each other is then a different story. The point I am trying to make is that the ordinary Bangladeshi has gotten over Pakistan. I visited the country and was surprised to see that the man on the street was more concerned about their relations with India. Pakistan was forgotten, if not forgiven. This attitude is not about religion but the fact that we are geographically apart. We were geographically, p[politically, psychologically, emotionally and economically apart even when we were the same country. Now that Bangladesh has an independent status they don’t want a merger with us or with India. This was a simple point I was trying to make.Recommend
@SK
I respect ur views.We can not come to a point where we agree.Now ur saying that Lahori muslim is more closer to Sikh or hindu punjabi as compared to a muslim in Karachi again wrong totally wrong.Language can not be a binding factor alone.West punjab is different from East punjab.Again Islam is a bigger Factor,Even in urban metros of west Punjab urdu is getting popular as compared to East punjab who can not read or write urdu.East punjab writes punjabi in gormoki,while our Punjab u can hardly find written punjabi.Our most punjabi food is from meat.West punjab can not read gormoki punjabi.Plz dont distort the facts.Recommend
@ TonySingh
Ur argument also applies on u.Because of this difference of opinion I am a pakistani n ur an Indian.U people always negate two nation theory again n again.I can not change ur mind and u can not change my opinion.Recommend
@ Ayesha
Ur elder to me.I will always learn from u.I always listen to u wen u turn on TV.My question to u is that If ur point is valid then why muslims of east bengal voted for Pakistan in 1946 general elections.They should have known that they are going to be a part of biggest Islamic state on this Planet.We were not different from each other from 1947 to 1971.East bengal was pushed for independent state by our Army Generals.The whole bengal voted for Fatima Jinnah who was non bengali,whereever she goes she was welcomed.The people of dacca,chittagong sehlat turn out in great numbers in her gatherings.She won the election but Ayub has other Ideas.I will say it again just because of military dictators the people of bengal left us.They were denied of their rights during ayub yahya rule.Had there been no military rule things would have been different.Recommend
@ Khalid – The cultural and ethinic binding to which I am refering is visible when you are away from your land, when you do not have man made boundaries between the two. What I am discussing is not for situations were we have forceful saparation.Recommend
@SK
I am living overseas and I feel more closer to a muslim as compared to hindu or sikh.There was no forceful separation in 1947.The people of west punjab and East Bengal Voted for All India Muslim League and Pakistan.Recommend
This is a message for Khalid, I am a Muslim of Bangladeshi Descent from UK and my wife is a Muslim of Pakistani Descent from UK, me and my wife always agree on how its good and viable for Bangladesh and Pakistan to stay seperate as independant Muslim nations, in this world the nature and history takes its course and it should remain that way.Recommend
Khalid Bhai, No issue I agree that we have disagreement.Recommend
Absolutely. I’ve worked with many Indians and Bangladeshis in the US and they are some of the nicest people I’ve met. No one talks about religion which is so taboo. It’s mostly shared feelings about how things could-be should-be and so on. With some close friends, sometimes we do get a bit deeper emotionally and wonder if there was no partition to begin with, we’d be a real superpower today, matching up with China. But all that maybe moot here. A few not so liberal folks disagree, but it’s a fact that a common culture binds us all together. If we let our children being taught from altered history books, and for the wrong reasons, it will be hard to change the ‘hate India’ mindset. Myself and many others watch Zee-TV and make no qualms about it. If cable TV brings us closer, why not? We need to be open and allow cable channels from India operate in Pakistan without being so suspicious. That will mostly certainly help resolve the issue on the mind of our youth — what is the other side like? Plain vanilla government sponsored cultural exchanges are okay but that’s not going to do much.
On a side note, my take is that we really need to get our strategy right before getting into the stew with Washington. With a long-term perspective in mind, sharing a border with China is a dangerous proposition for us. You are one who clearly understands the geopolitics behind it. Pakistan becomes the eye of the storm as the great game is played out between the US, China, and India. And that means Pakistan will become the next Afghanistan for a very long time. It might be worthwhile considering alternatives and compromises where we don’t have a border with China. That would most certainly pave the way for sustained economic growth at par with India. As they say “It’s the economy, stupid.” I know mine is more of a radical position held by liberal intellectuals, but just wanted to voice it out to see what you thought of it.Recommend
stupid.. those who hate india and blame india. Now go back in 1947 and think for a moment which is more easier to acquire kasmir or bangladesh. kasmir surrounded by china, pakistan and india. bangladesh surrounded by only india. i pakistani brothers didnt forgot partition of east pakistan. come on that is not our choice bcoz pakistan was not willing to share power though bhutto won less seat than rehman. pakistan as usual use millitry to force u to accept their dominance. Those who hate india just look at history first then express your views. A true lover of humanityRecommend