Muslim girl cannot skip swim class: German court
The 12-year-old, originally from Morocco but going to school in the southern German city of Frankfurt, had refused to take part in swimming lessons and had been marked down accordingly.
She filed to be given the right to skip the classes, her lawyer arguing that according to the Quran, she was not only forbidden from showing herself to boys but also from seeing the topless boys.
An administrative court in Kassel, western Germany, rejected her application.
It said in its ruling that she could wear the full-body swimsuit, known as the "burkini" already used by several girls at her school, which would be enough to guarantee her religious freedom.
The family had chosen to live in Germany where mixed swimming classes were the norm, the court pointed out.
One of the aims of the school system was to promote integration and tolerance, the court added, citing a ruling by Germany's constitutional court.
The applicant would have to put up with the sight of her classmates in their swimming costumes, the court said.
COMMENTS (56)
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@gp65:
Sorry guys homeschooling is in principle illegal in Germany. Schooling is also compulsory, so you better follow the rules of the land.
@Concerned, if such exceptions continue to be demanded by Muslims, sure that Germany and other western countries are going to ask immigrants or even only visitors to sign documents that oblige them to follow our rules and regulations. We have already too many in the West asking for the introduction of Sharia law and other unacceptable demands. Just wait and see. Laws in the west are not carved in stone as in most Islamic Countries. Laws usually follow desired developments or forbid undesired developments.
@Concerned: "Whereas if the kid reasonably thinks it violates his or her religion, they could be accommodated to be home schooled, therefore still given education"
Of course her parents can choose to home school her but they are not choosing to do that. Even the school is simply marking her down for not attending a required class - nothing more. IT is her parents that are whining and asking for exemptions.
Tomorrow someone may say they want exemptions from ohysics because it teaches that earh is not the centre of universe and that is against their beliefs. SOmeone may say they want exemption from biology because they do think theory of evolution is against their theory of creationism. How can a school system be run like that?
It doesn't matter that you or i think that some swimsuits are un-revealing, what matters is that the girl doesn't think that any swimsuit would be acceptable in her interpretation of religion.
If the kid didn't want to go to school, that would be laziness, not deserving of the status that "freedom of religion" enjoys and therefore not protectable. Whereas if the kid reasonably thinks it violates his or her religion, they could be accommodated to be home schooled, therefore still given education.
Not all swim suits are revealing so please check your facts before calling others by names. And another thing in most developed countries education is also compulsory so if a kid does not wanna go we should put him at home because of freedom? Swimming is a very good activity and everyone should know how to swim . And no one has stopped her from wearing a swim suit that is not revealing@-MA-:
Additionally, that's just sad that they think, by this decision they're implementing "One of the aims of the school system to promote integration and tolerance".
In the words of Nabila Ramdani,"A secular society has everything to do with bringing different life-styles together, not suppressing them... It's about allowing diversity" Not like this German Court has done "our way or the highway"
I don't think the German Court should have a say, as a secular institution, as to how liberally or how conservatively she can interpret her religion. Moreover, had she been born in Germany and not have had a choice to live in it or not, would the court have given a different decision? Besides, they don't make you sign anything when you migrate there, about adhering to their interpretation of your own religion. She was just asking them to apply their own secular logic concerning freedom of religion. No sense in condemning her and telling her to go back where she came from. In other words, the court can't say 'well we like this form of islam where they let you wear a burkini and so we think that should be enough for you'. That's just so un-secular.
Move back to Morocco.
You always have a choice.
Muslims can have their way in an Islamic country and not in a Western country, where society is more liberal, tolerant and reasonable. Going to court, fighting for a freedom (restriction) based on one's own culture (odd in another country) is like having a cake and eating it too. The best option for the girl is to go back to Morocco, where there may not be bare-chested boys and men in public(?) and where the girl in question can pursue to her heart's content Islam in its purest form.
I don't agree with the German court forcing the girl to do something against her beliefs. This is supposed to be the West with its liberties. But a muslim, should not be living in a place where their beliefs and practices run contrary to the majority. Her parents decided to come to Germany for a better life, I am sure they are enjoying it then they should also learn to bear the pinch points of the better life. BTW if this is acceptable in Germany, then a whole floodgates argument opens up for what is acceptable in Pakistan especially taken in the context of minorities. We all know what happens when democracies are highjacked by mob rule. I have a feeling the Germans are going towards mob rule.
@Khalid Pervez....lets see, you said: *Islam also allows peaceful co-existence of people of other faiths and religions, without indulging in their religious affairs and expects equal rights for Muslims when they are in minority.** Pakistan, Saudi are live examples of muslims giving equal rights to other religion!!
Would it be fine for a Muslim mother to have relations with son? Really? Pls give examples which dont let reader puke...I have no idea that you think in West...folks do this!!
Let’s not flow with evil traits and practices And you think everyone except muslims follow evil traits!! How do you know? Some mullah told you...right?
It’s highly courageous on the part of the young girl.to raise her voice. It's highly stupid of parents of the girl to put innocent child in spot.
These self entitled people reduce opportunities for Muslims currently wishing to emigrate to Western democracies. No one wants to deal with this prima dona approach of I am different and different rules for me.
@boco: "I’m aquaphobic and theres no way I would participate in swimming lessons, I’d rather drag their backs in court and get a petition rolling."
Nobody was dragging her to the pool. She was just being marked down for not attending a required class. She petitioned to be excused on somewhat flimsy grounds and was denied. If your aquaphobia was certified by a reputed doctor, I am sure the school itself would rule differently. After all no school would force a kid with peanut allergy to eat a peanut butter sandwitch.
@Khurram Malik: Islamic countries are model Of Segregation and Persecution.......of Persecuting the Minority until it vanishes and we.........Hindus and Ahmedis in Pakistan..
OK. But is there Islam in Pakistan? or is it [Islam] being used to subjugate others [reference; Gazette of Pakistan 1955 or 56]. It's not just Ahmedis who have their own concocted version of Islam. And it may be the prime example of how religions of old were changed, forgotten. And in it's place we have more rituals and less of belief [or belief in rituals]?
So maybe the Islam you mention here [Segregation and Persecution of Minorities] is somewhat [or absolutely] removed from what is ordered in the Quran?
Thats why I asked all to read the Quran [translation, if not a Arab].
No one should be segregated on any basis but yet the Germans have segregated [on religious basis] by taxing Christians and not Muslims? Well, do I understand correctly? No offense meant.
@abc: Yes... Mr. Pickthall's translation is in tradition English [which is a little difficult to understand for non-English speaking folks. But, to an extant, preserves the Old Arabic flavor for English speaking folks]. The Prologue relates the history and events before and during the Revelation of Quran.
Yusuf Ali's is in relatively simpler English and equally good.
@Khalid Pervez: If religion is the dominating influence in MUslim life, then they should live in a country where this is the case. In democracies rule of Law is the supreme and has to be followed by everybody irrespective of their personal religious preferences.
Says it all doesn't it? Further - I have little doubt that it's the parents who are the instigators of this ruckus as I have never met a young girl who has a problem looking at boys - topless or otherwise.
@Khalid Pervez: Sure, if it is unacceptable, do what everyone is suggesting. Leave and live comfortably in a place where you can live by your rules. And please do not bring up incest. Most cousin marriages in the UK are between Pakistani Muslims in particular. So it seems very ironic if you bring that up.
This is typical issue facing immigrants who go to other countries carrying their garbage of past. They love the dollar or DM but hate the local culture. At twelve the language she is using is that of her parents and not of her own. The typical issue is I am better than local or my morals are better than locals hence I am entitle to adjustment? Once you set your mind in this frame one starts refusing integrating in the local community and end up in gheto. These people have no network of local connections.
@Khalid Pervez: Then stay in Muslim country. No body forcing Muslim to migrate to western country.
The ruling is fair enough; she's allowed to cover herself, so her own freedom is protected, but well she IS living in the West of her own free will after all.
@A Khan:
The argument of 'Do in Rome as the Romans do' is not acceptable in Islam or Deen. Muslims, where ever they are, are obligated to follow the teachings of Quran and Sunnah. Islam also allows peaceful co-existence of people of other faiths and religions, without indulging in their religious affairs and expects equal rights for Muslims when they are in minority.
How could 'Do in Rome as Roman do' be acceptable for Muslims? A very large number of un-wed couples spend their lives living together and also have [illegitimate] children in Europe and Americas. No Muslim could allow his children to follow this course. Then how about the menace of incest? Would it be fine for a Muslim mother to have relations with son?
Let's not indulge in weak arguments Let's have our identity as Muslims. Let's not flow with evil traits and practices - traits which are forbidden even in Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc.
It's highly courageous on the part of the young girl.to raise her voice. The respective courts and society should show openness and allow equal opportunity for all regardless of their cast, creed and religion.
if someone is uncomfortabl then he/she shud be allowed to skip SWIMMNG classses... i was in favour of the decision to ban full face veil.. but this one is crazy.... swimming classes must be optional....
@FJ: She has the freedom of choice! She can choose not to go to that school and go to a Madrasa instead. And you can rest assured they'd have separate changing rooms for girls and boys, because even they're not that liberal.
we she have free will to go morroco! nobody forces her to stay there!
If this is the your logic , then I wonder whether there are any lady doctors in muslim world ? "according to the Quran, she was not only forbidden from showing herself to boys but also from seeing the topless boys"--Going by your logic , I think you are not going to marry . I also think you don't stay in the house where your brother and father stay .Burkini and Moroco is your destination baby , not Hitler's Germany .
@azeem:
i have yusuf ali's version. is that good?
@boco: If you are AquaPhobic then According to German rules you will be exempted on Medical Grounds. Germany is far more developed and you cannot catch them with these statements. They have Gesetzbuch * Rule Book for almost everything.
@Ahsan: No one forces anyone in Germany. Germany is one of the best countries to live in the world. Mz family members live there as well. All Germans say that no one should make Religion a way of Segregation. Do you know that in Germany there is a Tax on Catholic Christians while Muslims are living freely. We should respect the German Values and infact we have to learn from them in this regard Here is a small news piece for Pakistanis that Germany is strict to its values and Chrsitians are taxed specifically in Germany so why we should mourn in the first when Muslims enjoying more freedom here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581
German culture and western culture is a model based on integration. Islamic countries are model Of Segregation and Persecution. Islamic countries stresses the need of Persecuting the Minority until it vanishes and we have already seen what is going on with Christians, Hindus and Ahmedis in Pakistan.. The Western values embraces the Minority so that it will integrate with Grace into Majority. The German culture states that every German must have same values irrespective of Religion and they stick to these values. If you are a Muslim then you have equal rights in Germany. Since Germans dont want Parallel soceity so they have made these rules so that no one would segregating a part of society. Atleast Pakistani people have no right to comment on this issue where according to Constitution we have defined classes of People and now Even a Non Muslim cannot take top position in Pakistan.
On the bright side they are using the courts to resolve this dispute - beats the typical rampage we see in Pakistan.
She should wear burkini, follow the rules else her parents have a choice to go back to Morrocco. "lawyer arguing that according to the Quran, she was not only forbidden from showing herself to boys but also from seeing the topless boys." show me the verse please which talks about topless boys.
what integration? to force a little girl to swim with boys against her will?? to the parents: if u are concerned for ur child then change her school! and also why did they move to the west if they are so religious, they cant force the west to accept each and every demand a foreigner puts forward, either be thankful for the better standard of living or shut up and go back to failed,corruption riddled countries they belong to.
The solution, it seems, is for Germany to accept holy Sharia laws.
Why doesn't she leave Germany for Morocco in protest ???
I am a Muslim. I have read The Bible [to better understand Christianity and Christians]. May I recommend my non Muslims friends to at least read a good translation of The Quran [to better understand Islam and Muslims] once.
Get "The Meaning of The Glorious Quran" by Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall, a translation in English.
I respect all... Peace
topless? all this seems bottomless... in this age of learning, knowledge and we still have to go a long, long way. come on, the human race.... the world has to rethink how we are to each other.
Rules are rules and every country has their own rules. These people demand that freedom of choice be given to them but if a western girl in Saudi Arabia wants to wear a bikini on beach then will she be allowed? Ofcourse no!
But then why they bring their way of life in a country which is totally different?If she has problem with bare chest boys then better study in Morocco! Leave Germany!
Well... we find bare chested men in every corner of our cities and villages. Thats even true for Morocco as i have been there. Good on the European nations to crack down on these absurd requests.
@Salman... Is it correct for a Muslim women or man to swim with opposite gender???
She is right in her stance. Why the so called liberals westerns give her liberty if she doesn't want to attend a class..
They could migrate to Pakistan where they'll have no problem as everything is according to their belief. Let the poor non Muslims live their lives in peace according their heathen social values and beliefs.
Too harsh. Personal freedom should exists. This is not liberalism.
dont like the rule? go back to your country! dont expect european countries will follow shariah law!
IF bare chested boys offend you then you are in a very wrong country my lady.
I'm aquaphobic and theres no way I would participate in swimming lessons, I'd rather drag their backs in court and get a petition rolling.
Appropriate ruling. One should not go and live in a country, the culture of which one finds unacceptable. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
"One of the aims of the school system was to promote integration and tolerance" ...so school should first tolerate and give freedom of choice!!! I know how it works in these schools where kids change clothes in front of other classmates as there is usually no changing rooms for such big classes.
Can't see bare-chested men? what a load of nonsense!