I woke up to an irritating din of chanting grief on July 12, 2012, when this newspaper carried my article, titled, “The Parthasarathy doctrine”. By the time the day was out, about a 100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names, had put up an orchestrated protest on the website of this publication finding fault with my not being aware of an Indian intelligence group, the NIA having met India’s witness of choice, David Headley (not Kasab, mind you). It meant zilch to the larger argument I was making in that article, but no, when you are orchestrated as a hired hand by a central authority, you do as you are ordained and conveniently overlook the niceties of any argument.
Seemingly, some sleuths from India visited Headley in April, 2011, which was then reported in The Hindu, in June, 2011, that I had missed taking note of. One, I don’t follow The Hindu; in fact, I don’t follow any Indian newspaper for their boringly similar reporting on Pakistan, which mirrors India’s official position. Heck, there are more Pakistanis fighting India’s cause in many more innovative ways than what the world’s largest democracy can put together in a resurgent progressive-liberalist mould. And two, India herself could only get to learn of the earth-breaking development two months later. By then, there were far more pressing things happening in Pakistan than to bother with a double, or a triple, agent, Headley.
Now to the more substantive, legal aspects of the Headley testimony: what is the value and health of the evidence that is gained when accompanied by the handlers of a witness, in their lair? Next, what value does handed-down evidence — one, which has not been directly acquired by the prosecution — hold? The Headley testimony was third-hand, since India handed the dossiers to Pakistan without having had any access to the witness. Is such evidence reliable enough to admit allegations of Pakistani state’s complicity — India’s pervasive gripe — when the witness is a proclaimed double agent? These are legal issues that need to be brought to the fore. India has balked at any attempt to flesh these out in a joint bid, instead hoping to dictate the process. As a consequence, we remain stagnated and stunted.
Mumbai was a horrible reality — the entire Pakistan has repeatedly come out loud on this — and the two players, Kasab and Ansari, are living proofs of it. In a very legal sense, they can lead us to others who connived to enact this monstrosity. Pakistani prosecutors should be enabled unfettered access to the prime witnesses and without accompanying minders please. With evidence — Kasab and Ansari — in India, convictions cannot take place in Pakistan. For convictions to take place, India will need to seriously shift modes from being confrontationist and prescriptive to being cooperative, if indeed closure is what India seeks.
But, does it? My postulation is she doesn’t. Cavalier playfulness instead rules the roost. Every evening the Indian media rises in a hate-Pakistan crescendo drowning out reason or logic to forge common ground. Those seeking peace are vilified and excommunicated (“Wagah candle-kissers”?). Track IIs put forth a constant set of people who remain too scared to venture beyond official refrain. The people of both nations wallow in the misrepresentative narratives that are happily left untreated in the name of popular public space, viciously setting forth degenerative entrenchment of resident animosity. The establishments on either side relish in this perpetual slander of the other in a most diabolic double-speak, even as they ostensibly work to cure what ails the relationship.
When Pakistan’s foreign secretary was en route to Delhi for a most crucial dialogue with his counterpart, it was Abu Jundal who dominated the airwaves, taking away any good that could be had from this interaction. India’s media, in cahoots with vested interests, preempts any possibility of progress with persistent vituperation aiming to defile Pakistan as a dysfunctional, terror-sponsoring nation in the eyes of the world; this, despite Pakistan paying in blood and treasure in this war on terror in proportions unmatched by any other country in the world. That does not bring closure any nearer in this India-Pakistan circus to the many ailments that bedevil this increasingly sickening relationship. The prognosis remains ominously dark under such trends.
The dialogue process continues without much success. If a few months back, there seemed to be progress on visa facilitation and Sir Creek, it now seems held back by India’s exploitatively evolving position on Siachen. Its silent but catastrophic impact is likely to seriously impair any progress in the foreseeable future, including progress attained till date on trade issues.
Bilateralism, the underlying approach to conflict-resolution between India and Pakistan as per the intent and design of the Simla Agreement, is increasingly losing relevance despite what US President Barack Obama indicated in his latest remarks. If bilateral engagement between the two remains as non-productive as it has in all these years, it is likely that Pakistan will go the route of international mediation, and it need not be through the US. If that is the route taken, expect water, Siachen, and Kashmir again before the world agencies as issues ready to threaten the uneasy peace. Pakistan had chosen to move beyond Kashmir, but the recent discovery of unmarked secret graves of thousands of Kashmiris is once again likely to figure as serious human rights violation needing immediate international attention. The debate on states sponsoring terrorism as a tool vis-a-vis states indulging directly in terrorism, as in the case of Syria and India, too, will heat up. Pakistan remains averse to India cherry-picking trade and visa facilitation, while rubbishing Pakistan’s priority on resolving Siachen and Sir Creek. There is an increasing likelihood that Pakistan will now pursue a packaged approach seeking simultaneous resolution of all four issues.
Without the necessary toleration to imagine two sides to a story, any story, India’s proclivity to prescribe and dictate resolutions to the vexing problems countervails the well-intended effort of the dialogue process. It may actually have regressed South Asia down the slippery slope to older paradigms.
Published in The Express Tribune, July 19th, 2012.
COMMENTS (230)
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@Hasan Mehmood: "By showing inflexibility on minor / non critical issues you detract from the credibility of Mumbai massacre investigation demand" Assuming India is very rigid and unreasonable and does not have a big heart on issues like Kashmir, Siachen and Sir Creek. The crux of the issue as you suggest is tying progress/attitude on issues like Sir Creek, Kashmir & Siachen to investigation on Mumbai. This would be outrageous in any standards. If we assume Mumbai act was a terrorist act, no state should use that terrorist act as a tool to negotiate. "Thats why we are depending on fool proof Indian evidence to act as fait accompli" Unfortunately the definition of foolproof is decided by Pakistan. If Pakistani government were sincere they would have done internal investigation. Basically the Pakistani establishment does not see any reason to pro-actively go after the thugs, because they feel India does not deserve it. Unfortunately your Elite is siding with this discourse, in this scenario you cannot lecture to India on it's herd mentality when it comes to pakistani discourse.
@Cosmo: My remark was meant to indicate the futility of indulging in this name game. No sane person can deny that India has more muslims and they have similar names unlike maybe Turkish Muslims. You have simply wasted your breath on a non controversial issue.
@Hasan Mehmood: How many of you elite in pakistan would really be surprised if the control center for Mumbai carnage was in karachi and the boat actually left karachi and all 10 are Pakistanis, and finally there may be some kind of establishment support(done using Ex-ISI and Ex-Army). If you think it is a most likely scenario, then shouldn't you be applying more pressure on your Government. Instead the elite along with Government is coming up with excuses saying because of lack of co-operation from indian government we cannot make progress. I have not seen a single voice in Pakistan putting pressure on your Government saying look there is a good chance that this is orchestrated from this country, forget India, let us go after these guys, as this is our responsibilty. On the other hand if the elite thinks, look we really do not know, we are sorry for Mumbai carnage, but if you think there are people in Pakistan involved then India should provide concrete evidence for us to take action. Believe me India will never be able to provide concrete evidence Pakistan is looking for. I can understand average Indians and Pakistanis having different perspective On Kashmir, Siachen, or Rann of Kutch but Mumbai is a different story.
@Hasan Mehmood: Something similar (though on a smaller scale) seems to be in work in Indian Media. Otherwise how can you explain uniformity of views across race / language / region / political affiliation etc when it comes to Pakistan. So this is your grievance. How come India is united in its view when it comes to Pakistan & you blame the Indian media. I think you can go a step further & apply the same logic to the world media in general & blame them.
@kaalchakra, same Iqbal also wrote-saare jahan se acha Hindostan hamara
@Hasan Mehmood: Oh, dont get perturbed! It may surprize you but yes since my childhood i have had many friends with islamic names such as Hasan, sahazad, ali, asif, imran, etc.,. It just amuses me a lot that Pakistanis get offended when Indians lay claim on an muslim names. Well, i just have one advise for u,the author and more people with similar philosophy of thinking- get over it, pakistan doesnt have the sole propriety over islam or muslim names. Oh yes, one more thing we will never forget lives of 166 innocent indians( they were hindus, muslims, christians, sikhs, jains, jews, etc).
@deep:
"do not trust the pakistanis"
And may I ask most humbly what Indians have done to earn Pakistan's trust right from the begining when Ghandi Ji had to go on fast to get Pakistan its share of revenue. It will definitely strenghen the hands of doves like me. You cannot clap or slap one sided only although you can argue who is more to blame and who has been more kind. The hawks in Pakistan have also a very compelling list of grievances but still pro peace lobby manages to find some space which I am sure must be the case on Indian side also. Its just that the trols on this blog dont seem to reflect it. By the way thats what the author was trying to say but you rubbished him mercilessly and in the end proved him right that such uniform vitriolic can only come from a select band preprogrammed for the purpose. PEACE
The biggest gripe is that indians seem unanimous in their opinion - perhaps 10 years ago - you had indians arguing that we must make peace with pakistan - 10 years on that number has gone down considerably. In any drawing room or nukkad - get 10 indians of various classes together and yes - they will have the same view - do not trust the pakistanis - do some trade or whatever - but cautiously.
@amit:
@amit:
"Especially in foreign affairs there is more or less a unanimity in the country even between political parties to a degree"
Thats the same unanimity which is seen in USA (otherwise a great democratic country) regarding relations with Israel. Any political leader straying slightly out of line is doomed politically by media lynching for reasons best known to all. That certainly doesn't mean that all common American citizens condone the Zionist policies. Something similar (though on a smaller scale) seems to be in work in Indian Media. Otherwise how can you explain uniformity of views across race / language / region / political affiliation etc when it comes to Pakistan. Even two brothers under a roof don't share 100% common views.
Inspite of Jehadi mindset / rightist brainwashing and endemic hate mongering in our local language media, we still have people boldly speaking out against the majority viewpoint.
Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy (a renowned physicist and writer / intellectual) has gone to the extent of advocating unilateral nuclear disarmament. Can you imagine someone in India doing that or being allowed to do that? So my dear friend its a paradox that a much much more democratic / liberal country like INDIA is much more rigid / inflexible / self righteous / close minded regarding bilateral issues concerning Pakistan.
By the way thanks for inviting Pak cricket team. Its certainly against the run of play.
@observer: All your points can be replied adequately but it will only take us away from the main topic. Suffice is to say that reducing complex geopolitical concepts to 2+2=4 equation is pretty naive. I will only give two examples one from the past and one from present. 1. You claimed Hyderabad being a Hindu majority state and did not honor Muslim ruler's choice. In Kashmir you acted upon Hindu rulers's choice of accession knowing fully well its a muslim majority state. 2. Saudi Arabia vhemently protested against Iranian interference in Bharain (supporting Shia majority) but is currently arming Sunni majority rebel army in Syria.
You keep reinforcing my perception that you are not wiling to think out of the box which is desperately required to break through the impasse and achieve the elusive peace between our two countries.
@amit: "Especially in foreign affairs there is more or less a unanimity in the country even between political parties to a degree"
Thats the same unanimity which is seen in USA (otherwise a great democratic country) regarding relations with Israel. Any political leader straying slightly out of line is doomed politically by media lynching for reasons best known to all. That certainly doesn't mean that all common American citizens condone the Zionist policies. Something similar (though on a smaller scale) seems to be in work in Indian Media. Otherwise how can you explain uniformity of views across race / language / region / political affiliation etc when it comes to Pakistan. Even two brothers under a roof don't share 100% common views.
Inspite of Jehadi mindset / rightist brainwashing and endemic hate mongering in our local language media, we still have people boldly speaking out against the majority viewpoint. Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy (a renowned physicist and writer / intellectual) has gone to the extent of advocating unilateral nuclear disarmament. Can you imagine someone in India doing that or being allowed to do that? So my dear friend its a paradox that a much much more democratic / liberal country like INDIA is much more rigid / inflexible / self righteous / close minded regarding bilateral issues concerning Pakistan. By the way thanks for inviting Pak cricket team. Its certainly against the run of play.
@Yuri Kondratyuk: Hey Yuri.
What exactly is the club? please..let me know..
@Hasan Mehmood: Is’nt it praiseworthy that in spite of all the points listed by you, we still have many people openly challenging the official / mainstream narrative. Well i respect all of them.But why almost of these people are living under death threat in Pakistan.Asma jahangir,Nazam sethi etc. Arundhati Roy..Look what your media did to her She parachutes from one issues to another depending upon how much space that issue covers in media.Indian media is too LIBERAL to give her space as everything about her is against India and all things Indian. Official narrative of India on Kashmir Just ask yourself.Why a billion plus Indians agree to that narrative. LETS FACE IT ALL YOUR DEMOCRATIC , LIBERAL , HUMANE CREDENTIALS come to a naught when dealing with Pakistan. Just ask yourself..why the world is calling you an international migraine.Why Paki is a slang in many western countries.Why many Pakistanis abroad try to hide their identity & call themselves Indian. Your harangue regarding Siachin is already answered by Ayesha khan.
@cosmo: Actually you make a very valid point, “Shahzad” sure is an Indian name.
What sort of a senseless / meaningless comment is that? You are lucky to get past ET moderators with such a frivolous post.
Editor ET: Please publish my comment. You should be man enough to take critisizem in your stride.
@Rowdy R:
So is @Ali Tanoli
Cosmo
Are you sure your Indian friends and colleagues are named Shahzad and not Shajad?
@cosmo: "Actually you make a very valid point, “Shahzad” sure is an Indian name."
What sort of silly comment is that?
Editor ET: How come such senseless / frivolous comment got past moderators? You have definitely lowered your standards.
@Hasan Mahmood
But one thing has been proved decisively i.e there is no space for alternative narrative in Indian Media and most of your people are more scared of running foul of official guidelines then we are of our own Ghairat Brigade / perpetual hate mongers.
Let me put it this way, if some one tells you 2+2=4 and then somebody else tells you 2+2=7, which one would you protest against?
Now consider,
A. Pakistan tells its citizens India invaded Kashmir. The rest of the world knows where the Kabailis came from.
B. Pakistan text books say India attacked Pakistan 'unprovoked in 1965. The rest of the world knows about Operation Gibraltar.
C. Pakistan said that Mujahideen were occupying the Kargil heights. Everyone else knows the occupiers came from Northern Light Infantry.
D. Pakistan kept swearing its commitment to WOT. We all know where OBL was hiding.
Now, you know who should question the official version and why? You are not doing any favours to the world or India.
@Neel: Actually you make a very valid point, "Shahzad" sure is an Indian name. I mean, I know friends and colleagues in India with that name. Going by the author's theory, i am not sure if he is a an Indian who just loves Pakistan more ?? or is he just an unfortunate Pakistani who is "bestowed" with an "Indian Name" ? A good question, any sane or otherwise Pakistani out there to tackle this conundrum?
@akash: So we have distorted history, hate fill curriculum, war against communism, people like Zaid Hamid, hero worship of OBL and so on. But what excuse you have for the hatred as exemplified by the demeaning, dismissive, disparaging, sarcastic remarks by almost all Indians. Looks like the absence of accentuating circumstances have not made a difference and by all means you are winning the war of vitriolic hate mongering. Think about it without going into self righteous mode so favorite of Indians.
With evidence — Kasab and Ansari — in India, convictions cannot take place in Pakistan.
And, with evidence for Gojra, Garhi Shahu, Parchinar, Baltistan all being in Pakistan, How many convictions have taken place? PLEASE.
@Hasan Mehmood - By and large India media reflects public opinion and even Govt of India in most of the cases will work according to public perception.
No Govt in India (whether BJP or Congress) can afford to forget Mumbai because they know public will punish them. So whether it is foreign policy, domestic policy or media pronouncements, what you see is more or less what people of India think. There are some exceptions though. Especially in foreign affairs there is more or less a unanimity in the country even between political parties to a degree!
@Hasan Mehmood:
The author had many factual inaccuracies in his previous blog and his explanatin in the current blog is that he does not read Indian newspapers. Whether Indian newspapers are boring or not (that is a subjective opinion - author is entitled to think they are boring - who am I to argue), he needs to update himself on facts if he is going to write about Indo-Pak relations.
Secondly when it comes to Siachen, India is. IT is an important strategic location for which Indians have paid in blood and treasure, so there is not going to be any unilateral withdrawal. India was and is willing to withdraw as long as Pakistan authenticates the AGPL - which it has so far been unwilling to do. In light of Kargill, unilateral withdrawal is simply not an option.
I cannot say about others but can confirm for myself, my family and friends that there is no hatred (deep seated or otherwise) of Pakistan. There is wariness of Pakistan as a country due to repeatedly being attacked by both state and non-state actors. Nothing against individual Pakistanis though.
Hain?? The author from Pakistan???? I thought Shahzad is an Indian name.
I say why bother commenting on this author's article. It means zilch anyways.
I'm sure he is not following the official position of the I.S.I. This is just his personal belief laid out in the article.
So what if Headley, Dawood, ( and Osama ) were provided support in Pakistan. It is a free country where anyone can get visas for entry. They can do any business and meet anyone. Just as Sajid Mir visited India to watch a cricket match and do some sightseeing. There is nothing wrong in that.
In India so many people get killed in road accidents and pot-holes. Nobody raises a stink for that. Then why bother if a few terrorists came across in a boat across the sea and killed a few people. Fix your pot-holes first!!!
Lets just play in IPL. We all like cheerleaders.
@Yuri Kondratyuk: regarding "@Haris Chaudhry:
@ Ali Tanoli.. What are you actually trying to say ???? Scratching my head ..!!Welcome to the biggest club @ET, Sir!" I also am member of the club
@Hasan Mehmood: Unless they are united in deep seated hatred or brainwashed by media Let me tell you few facts. 1.Distorted history is taught in Pakistan,not in India.Do the student of Pakistan know anything about pre-Islamic history of the subcontinent? Last time i was writing a comment on a blog, when someone commented they ruled India. http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/12108/hinudana-rasm-or-a-radical-mindset/ 2.Hindu hatred is part of the study curriculum in Pakistan.There was a time.. not far..when Zaid hamid was a regular in TV shows. 3.Remember,it was Pakistan which was used as a launchpad in the war against communism through extremism & till now madrasas have always been the major place of recruitment for Jihad, & end result is.. Osama is a hero for majority of Pakistani.What do you say about it? 4.The exact picture of 1971 or any other war is never projected correctly in Pakistani media .It is just a Hindu/RAW sazish.
@Cosmo: Thank you very much. You have proved my point. By the way, Nawaz Sharif suggested going back from our currently held position. But your bigoted, narrow minded, hatred filled mind cant see that.
@Hasan Mehmood: Man, which world are you living in? There is no question of "Pakistan's unilateral withdraw". To be able to "withdraw" you need to first reach at that position". Hawa main baate na karo, akkal lagao.
wow ET, you trashed my two other comments while allowed only one. Do you even bother to ever filter out indian comment which has nothing but blatant agenda and hate filled . Check the comment of @Cosmo who is getting personal with another poster from Pakistan
@ayesha_khan: Do you disagree with author's view regarding boringly similar reporting on Pakistan closely mirroring Indian foreign office / establishment view. If you can prove otherwise I shall be extremely happy. Please be large hearted and give credit to Pakistanis for challenging official position be it Kashmir, Siachen, non state actors or Trade relations. Our top opposition leader Nawaz Sharif had the guts to openly call for unilateral withdrawal from Siachen. Can any Indian say so and survive media lynching? This in spite of the fact that your democratic / liberal credentials are far better than Pakistan's. Bilateral issues not being Gospel truth cannot evoke uniform following across a nation of billion people. Unless they are united in deep seated hatred or brainwashed by media. Please think and ponder with a cool mind for a change.
@Aizaz: After all the hot air in the two articles and the comments that followed finally someone talking of moving forward . Prior to 26/11 the composite dialogue was moving slowly but it was moving. 26/11 has derailed the composite dialogue. 26/11 was a major tragedy and without its closure that satisfies both countries to expect and movement on the composite dialogue, trade or cricket ties will be naive. Now with the ATC rejecting the report of the Pakistani judicial commission we seem to be back to square one.If we want to move ahead we have to think out of the box.The ATC will not accept any evidence till the defendants have had an opportunity to cross examine the witnesses. India will not Kasab & Abu Jundal (as they do not trust the Pakistan will send them back).I feel allowing the accused to cross examine the witness in Mumbai from the trail court in Rawalpindi via video conferencing is the best option. Special situations demand special solutions. A representative from Pakistan High Commission (New Dehli) can submit an affidavit certifying the identity of the prosecution witnesses by being physically present on the other side.If the govts accord priority and a fast tract court is constituted closure that satisfies both countries can be achieved.
these indians here are only sticking to one "naming|" point while ignoring the rest of article.
Just curious, what exactly is a "Pakistani name"? I think the author meant Muslim names, but is so angry with India that he almost forgot or didn't realize that India has more Muslims than his "HoliLand" for Muslims, where ethnic cleansing is a perpetual reality for "other" Muslims. I agree India is no paradise but Gujarat is an aberration of reality, and is treated as such, where the guilty are punished, rather than celebrated. We Hindus of India stand with our brothers Muslims to get them justice for whatever happened in Gujarat, but who stands for Balochis, Shiias and Ahmediyas of the "HoliLand"? Oh, and we don't forget Mumbai because it was that bad! For those who complain that the "HoliLand" is also terrorized, then there is a old hindi saying. "Babool ke ped boyoge to Aam kaha se hoga", meaning, you will seed what you will sow.
The author is talking about display names being Pakistani like the one i have..Indian trolls get a life.
@Udaya Bose: Pakistan; the state of denial +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
@Babur Chughtai: "I am not lying" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Poor guy..imagine his credibility gap when he has to declare "I am not lying; even when no one has bothered to accuse him of lying.
To all my Indian and Pakistani brothers CEASEFIRE
@Arif.. Mate its not Pakistani bashing.. its calling stating facts.. We would love to hear counter arguments or rebuttals of some very good points raised by so many Indians. We Indians are thankful to ET for publishing our comment. It should also be a positive thing for Pakistanis as it gives a window to average Pakistani what we Indians think on various issues. For example the Pakistanis now are aware that Mumbai incident for Indians is like one of those watershed moment.. we are sensitive and are not going to forget.
Mister Perpetual Denial
To Express Tribune: Editors;
I just wonder, if Express Tribune is in Indian paper!!! As you do give an absolute free hand to Pakistan-bashing hate-mail, but never allow even mildest Patriotic (pro-Pakistan) comment. Of course, like all other commercial ventures, you are mainly interested in marketing your product (and India is a HUGE market). Congratulations.
A defence analyst who is not even aware of a major fact about David Headley(which was not only reported in many major news papers ) does indeed show your "strategic depth" and "knowledge".
Rearding your comment on "100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names" hurts pakistanis who have a different view from yourself than Indians whom you are targeting.
If pakistan encourages people like yourself, the country may not require any others to conspire against it.
@noone: Jinnah said "Pakistan was formed the day 1st Muslim entered India"
@Hasan: u r definatly not a pakistani mate good try though....
Wonder what gallery the author is playing to! The world is not ignorant of what state Pakistan has degenerated to. Wonder how someone can concoct such versions of recent history and expect readers to blindly consume them.
Further, I am more surprised to note that the author has been a high ranking officer in the defense establishment. Speaks a lot about the quality of people who have been running the country for most part of its existence. On the other hand the comments section has been most enlightening. Not only did I get to read more mature views of the situation being discussed in the article by the author but also folks rejecting the hawkish views of the author (across the board - Pakistanis/Indians/et al..). A very heartening thing
@Girish: "Let me see if get this, you know what’s being reported/written without reading? Damn, that’s some talent."
Muslims believe in Jinns. Jinns have the ability to know everything.
Twitter and cyberspace is infested with Indians who sit by the hundreds every day and troll Pakistani news and sites and post hateful material against Pakistan. They start early, direct traffic to any report on Pakistan published anywhere in the world, and then fill the comment section with hate speech against Pakistan. I am not lying. You'll find everything in this report http://bit.ly/pACedo Look closer and you'll see how the arguments/points all are the same, as if they all are reading from some guidebook. It's obvious this is an organized effort by some department in the Indian government. See http://bit.ly/pACedo
@Wonderful:
Don't know final out come but talibans (most likely Paki supported) destroyed 4 million dollars worth of trucks and materials. Pakistan is trying to send some message to US/NATO forces and Afghanistan government.
@amit: Saudis treat Pakistanis like untouchables. They call them servant class or something. Arabs also don't let their women marry Pakistani men.
"One, I don’t follow The Hindu; in fact, I don’t follow any Indian newspaper for their boringly similar reporting on Pakistan, which mirrors India’s official position."
Let me see if get this, you know what's being reported/written without reading? Damn, that's some talent.
Mr. Chaudhry - One would have expected that a person who is a former AVM of Pakistan Air Force would have a better understanding and knowledge of history. But your use of the phrase "including some with Pakistani names", evokes nothing but laughter and ridicule. To brush up your history, all of Pakistani names are actually Indian names. In fact about 60 years back, these were all Indian names. Your attempt to distinguish between commentators on the basis of their names is a pathetic one at best. Please do not insult your country and its people.
classic digging one ground in the sand approach
hey viewers...U R BEING TROLLED!!!!
" With evidence — Kasab and Ansari — in India, convictions cannot take place in Pakistan" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Appreciate honesty. Pls scrap the charade of a Pakistani legal process.
"Pakistan remains averse to India cherry-picking trade and visa facilitation, while rubbishing Pakistan’s priority on resolving Siachen and Sir Creek." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I think Pakistan is the winner on all these accounts, There is zilch progress on all the above. All equally rubbished.
"It meant zilch to the larger argument I was making in that article" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ When losing the narrow argument shift to the larger argument and vice versa.
@Cautious: "BTW how’s that Abbottabad Commission doing – nobody in India or the USA is getting in your way on that one are they?" +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH Well spoken.
@John B
Welcome back.Missed your inputs on many interesting topics that appeared in ET and gone.
I refrained from commenting for awhile and wished to remain as a passive observer. But this is too much.
I am concerned about Pakistan, if the author's types are columnists.
Ignorance has become the hall mark of Pakistan opinion makers, and surprisingly it is more deep rooted in educated elites than in common men.
@Haris Chaudhry:
Welcome to the biggest club @ET, Sir!
@Khalid Hussain Living in ignorant country of USA with the public opinion shaped by even more ignorant and prejudiced media, you call their opinion as worthy of something. The ground reality in Pakistan is totally different. A great article nonetheless. Dont need to be apologetic in the face of consistent storm of lies and slandering from US/India.
Mr. Chaudhary; You blamed Indians in your talk show in Delhi, accusing that how long India will milk this incident. What? this is a simple incident? where gun wielding terrorists, caused mayhem in a neighbouring country and accused are living royally in the jail, under the protection of police. And you say, India should forget?? Wow.
Positives ? There are None. There is no introspection by the author but just arguments to mask the charade being perpetrated at Adiala 26/11 investigation. Mr Daood Geelani alisa Headley, has made serious allegation undewr oath in US courts. Why has Pakistan kept total silence and not made any effort to question Mr Headley, like India did ? Pakistan, allegedly has all the top master minds of the 26/11 attack, including LeT military commander Zakiur-Rehman Lakhvi and communications director Zarar Shah. They are in custody for last few years. What has Pakistan learnt from their interrogaion ? While the interrogation of Kasav, Ansari and Headley has revealed a mountain of evidense, there is no news from Pakistan about what is being reveled by the interrogation of the real masterminds. The reason why there is no news is because there is no interrogation, no questioning but just a sham trial. The masterminds are being protected and held closely and neither India nor USA have been offered any access to them. The judge itself in the 26/11 case, has been changed 5 times in last few years. While India has shared information with Pakistan about the details revealed by Mr Kasav and Mr Ansari. What has Pakistan discovered from questioning of LeT masterminds, Lakhvi and Zarar Shah ? Anything ?
indians crying racism...lol.
When the terrorists spent 36 hours in Mumbai and 2 years of planning in Pakistan, where does the author think the evidence will be?. The entire world has the answer for this common sense question except this excellent author and likes in Pakistan.
This is just not self denial, it is an arrogant lie. This shows the world the standard of morality in Pakistani establishment.Justifying lies leads to loss of credibility, that is exactly where Pakistan stands in the eyes of the world - No one believes what Pakistan says
Kaalchakra:
Hundreds of names used by Pakistanis are in fact Sanskrit/Hindu names.
That includes Punjab, Sindh, Taxila, Kandahar...and of course, "Kaalchakra".
Pakistan, coming into existence just 60 years ago, is not only disowning their 3000 year history, they even think that they are Arabs, with "Pakistani" names, and that history started with bin Qasim's arrival in Sindh, or worse, with 1947.
Its not surprising that Kaalchakra and Shahzad Chaudhry talk about Pakistani names as if Pakistan is in Pluto or Uranus. Maybe they are, that's why they are so out of sync with the rest of people on Earth.
Kaalchakra:
I am an Indian, using pseudonym of a Sanskrit word for a Hindu concept. What is with your name? Is that a 'muslim name'? A sankritised "Pakistani name"? Or Indianized "Pakistani Name"? Are you a Indian with a "Pakistani heart"?
What exactly is a "muslim name"? Kabir, Saheer, Rehan, Armaan, Nisha, Ishant, Aisha, Roshni, Alisha, Parizad, Sahil , Pari, Zain, Aryaan, Sameer and many more are common names (boht Muslim & hindu) in India.
Does a man with a Muslim name become a Pakistani?
@mahmood: Well said...
Shahzad Chaudhry, Seriously please let us know what do you mean by "Pakistani names"'? Waiting to hear from you on this.
Could the Indian insecurity be any more obvious than it is reflected in the comments above? I being an Indian am embarrassed today by what my fellow indians have decided to decipher from the author's article today. Why has the main content been ignored and decidedly misconstrued? Lets look at the positives of what the author is trying to convey and be open minded enough to realise that both the nations have to work together to meet challenges!
Lets get out of the petty discussion. And look at the bigger picture!!!!!!!!
@GetwiththeMojo
The “Great” Indians should rise up from the usual, useless banter and look at substance in the larger sense. How about using this energy for substantial feedback, i guess it really has hit home.
And Pray, What precisely is the 'substance in the larger sense' in this article? Let me guess
A. Hedley's account is insufficient for prosecution?
Yes, it is. It needs corroboration and the facts and places and people named by Hedley are in Pakistan. Has Pakistan set up an investigation team and offered to collaborate with the FBI on this? NO, but it will go on whining about how Hedley's statements are uncorroborated.
B. When Pakistan’s foreign secretary was en route to Delhi for a most crucial dialogue with his counterpart, it was Abu Jundal who dominated the airwaves, taking away any good that could be had from this interaction.
Really? Did Abu Jundal say that the Visa agreement can not be signed? It was reported differently in even Pakistani newspapers.
C.Pakistan remains averse to India cherry-picking trade and visa facilitation, while rubbishing Pakistan’s priority on resolving Siachen and Sir Creek.
So Indian talks of trade and people to people contact is CHERRY PICKING and Pakistani AVERSION to it is justified. But asking India to forget Mumbai is somehow the opposite of cherry picking? GREAT, simply astounding. And on Siachen, what could be simpler than just acknowledging the Actual Ground Position and then moving back? But no that is MANGO PICKING?
Did I overlook any of the 'substance in the larger sense'?
Does Author still has any answers about why Pakistan is not giving voice samples to India or to neutral country, why it has not talked to David headley in US ?? and there are many more... Is it really sincere Mr Author?
And presuming Pakistan wants Indians to move on from Mumbai issue - Here is asking you MR. Chaudhry - WHY DON'T YOU MOVE ON FROM KASHMIR ISSUE? IT IS EVEN OLDER.
Observation for my Pakistani friends.. they will just say 'Indian trolls will be here in full force' , 'our Indian friends will not like the the article and they will just put nonsense comments', but none of our Pakistani friends or authors can actually answer or rebut the points raised by my Indians!!
Just read the first article by author and I was appalled by the level of insensitivity. 'Milking the Mumbai 26/11' I mean really.. what were you thinking Mr. Author. We are not going to forget Mumbai in a hurry, we can assure you.
The fact of the matter is that India has been all along soft with Pakistan,right from 1971. The sad part is that such stuff is not coming from Madarsa educated mullah but english speaking elite Pakistani and you wonder if there is any difference between them. Perhaps as someone said Mr. Parthasarthy is right after all. P.S : Believe me i do not work for IB or RAW (I wish though they were more efficient though)
Oh yeah, by the way...I am eagerly waiting to see pakistan taking issue to International community.....probably you guys need daily reminder that you are worthless and useless...:D :D
@GetwiththeMojo, On 26/11 current development between India and Pakistan ,the Great Airmarshall leaped forward to attack without much research and civilian Indians have done a pincer movement trapping the author.
@mahmood, 100% perfect reply. I am 100% sure you love Pakistan More than the author.
Keep it up, You will always be succesfull and protected by Alah.
Forget the raw-paid trolls - what about investigating the control room in Karachi - surely there will be others in pakistan who will corroborate the existence of the control room. The men set sail from karachi, they trained in safe houses - there were more than 10 men - surely these characters can be rounded up - the indian dossiers can only be used as a basis for all-important investigation in Pakistan that will stand up in a pakistan court of law - you dont expect to grill indian investigators to get to the bottom of what the LET leader was doing on the evening of 26/11? Calling it a tamasha makes mockery of your sentiment that you sympathise with the victims of 26/11
@Muhammad Shahid: . You stated : "The world’s only Hindu state Nepal always has problems with India." . As per the usual norms of our "Highly Intelligent Pakistani Brethren" you couldn't be more WRONG! . Sir Ji, Although there are OVER FIFTY MUSLIM COUNTRIES there are NO HINDU COUNTRIES as NEPAL is a SECULAR REPUBLIC! . Cheers
India Pakistan relationship is akin to going round and round the mulberry bush. Pakistan is threatened by terrorism from home soil, not some distant land. To fudge this fact and believe that it will disappear once NATO leaves Afghanistan, fools nobody. India is threatened by State sponsored terrorism from across its border - via various proxies To dream that India will normalize relations without bringing the perpetrators of terror to Justice is delusional. India will keep talking whilst simultaneously strengthening its Economy and Military machine, forcing Pakistan to increase its Defense budget and finally go bankrupt. India showed restraint after 26/11 because it was persuaded by its global interlocutors. Another attack means an official crowning as a "state sponsor of terrorism". The time for scheming and thinking has gone and the time to act has come, if the 50% of the country left is to be saved.
The author cherry picks the lens that suits the Pakistani establishment the best and coerces the world to look at Pakistan through the same lens. The world is not going to fall pray to this tactics. Even the Saudis and Chinese nowadays have become clever and are refusing to believe this 3D illusion. Indian stand on Siachen will not change just because Pakistan is making some virtue out of its necessity. For India, Mumbai will remain the core issue as it was a surgical strike carried out by Pakistan using its non state actors, till however is proven otherwise by Pakistan by bringing culprits to book. The very purpose of this article is to take focus away from Pakistan's culpability and put the onus instead on India. India will always do what suits it best and will not agree for issues cherry picked by Pakistan to discuss. Let "normalization of relationship" with India be not a Pakistan's charity and the curtain puller on bringing to justice handlers of Hedley, Kasab and Jundal back home in Pakistan.
@not-an-indian: "..can you stop whining about Mumbai?' Never. World's most-wanted Nazi held at 97...after 67 years. World never forgets mass murderers, except in pakistan., where mass killings as business as usual.
@mr. righty rightist
"...Don’t worry. we are a billion plus. We are here, there, everywhere..."
So are the cockroaches ! They can be seen scurrying around in unwanted places.
Indians, get over your Bombay obsession. You are no USA that we coddle you in your juvenile, illogical and vindictive narrative. We will wait till you begin to deal with us like adults.
The opinion of Shahzad Chaudhary with regard to India is a bit too radical which is well understood considering the past wherein Indo-Pak ties had been not very cordial. As a soldier from Pakistan his direct experience during the Indo-Pak military conflicts is yet another reason for his antipathy towards India. Although there has been a considerable India-Pakistan tamasha wherein the dialogues and meeting held have so far have not be conclusive with regard to resolution of outstanding issues between the two nations nevertheless military conflicts to a considerable extent have been averted since 1971. In addition diplomatic relations between the two neighbours have continued since 1979 with off course periodic upheavals. The writer unfortunately has squarely blamed India and India alone for not resolving the outstanding bilateral issues while the truth is that both the sides have not been able to come up with a clear and well defined policy pertaining to resolution of outstanding issues. The Sir Creek and Siachen are issues of equal importance for India as much they are for Pakistan hence a comprehensive solution is needed that is acceptable to both the countries. Shahzad Chaudhary has probably been perceiving the issue from a purely defence perspective as a soldier hence has probably overlooked the other related aspects of issues related to Indo-Pak relations. Belittling economic ties may not be the prudent approach as the economy of Pakistan necessarily has to come out of the economic problems it is passing through and increased commercial relations with India will be of great help. Secondly employment in Pakistan will be generated thus creating an environment that can check terrorism and religious fundamentalism in the country. The need of the hour is to create trust and amity between the two neighbours and an environment more cogenial.
@GetwiththeMojo: The title is clearly not 'great indian tamasha'...its 'the great india-pakistan tamasha' +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pls get your eyes tested. How can you deprive Pakistan of its credit?
I had great respect for the Air Vice marshall. However the column on "Parthasarthy Doctrine" was a ridiculous and outlandish piece of fiction. And this column is even worse. Besides,India does not need trade with pakistan, it benefits pakistan more. So pakistan thinking that its "packaged" deal will treaten India, is as outlandish as can be. India does not portray pakistan as a failed state. The entire world does so. Besides, pakistanis are so obseesed by kashmir, that any article or incident in kashmir overwhelms them, whereas they are least bothered about karachi killings on daily basis( far more than those who die in kashmir), nor are pakistanis bothered about their daily bombings. People asking india to 'Move on" from Mumbai, must realise that it will never happen till the culprits are punished. Pakistan may move on after criminal acts, but in a country which has a rule of law, India does not just" move on"
@Lala Gee: Lala Gee you claim not to have read the article but you can vouch that every word is true. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Obviously you are a Pakistani posturing to be a Pakistani.
And hence withfolds the great indian tamasha as clearly titled by the author. The "Great" Indians should rise up from the usual, useless banter and look at substance in the larger sense. How about using this energy for substantial feedback, i guess it really has hit home.
" I don’t follow The Hindu; in fact, I don’t follow any Indian newspaper for their boringly similar reporting on Pakistan," ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Very interesting. If you dont follow any Indian paper then how are do you know that they have 'boringly similar reporting on Pakistan' ?
Very curious Air Marshall!
@caramelized onion who writes "Wow, Indian newspaper websites must be truly terrible for half of India to turn up on this article and have a whinge."
Don't worry. we are a billion plus. We are here, there, everywhere.
Let me tell it to in simple words: People like you, are going to pull your country down, are going to wreck the lives of millions of your countrymen most of whom am sure are only looking for a normal life like any one else.
I read your article the moment it was put on the Internet but abstained from commenting. Now I can verify, after reading all the comments in this op-ed and the previous one you based this article on, that each and every word you said is true.
@Caramelized_Onion: The kind of article can only provoke this kind of response. Let us see what original thought you have propagated other than this oneliner.
@Mirza: "I have visited India several times on business and social trips and I enjoyed the common desi culture and food very much."
I know that Indian home secretary had gone to Pakistan with vis liberalization proposal ready to sign but Rehman Malik has delayed it. If better sense prevails, hopefully, we Indians can once again welcome you to once again taste our Indian hospitality. Kasab and gang did not come with visas anyway...
I wish I am also paid from IB or RAW as I know much about Pakistani mindset after reading news from nation , thenews.com, Tribune and dawn ..But sad I am typing as a humanist when ever I feel I need to educate pakistani about their stupid analysis like this one demanded.
@Shahzad Choudhary Only One question : Define Pakistani name. Can you?
Pakistan played tamasha with USA by closing the land route. Does anyone know the final out come of this tamasha?
Wow, Indian newspaper websites must be truly terrible for half of India to turn up on this article and have a whinge.
With Air Vice Marshals like you Pakistan does not requires India to disintegrate Pakistan
Sir, I am a US national of Pakistani origin who very regularly follows ET & would like to inform you that your articles does not make any sense except following establishment policy. Bombay attack was wrong & unfortunately its leads to Pakistan. Please stop following the establishment policy instead write something which you frankly & honestly feel is correct, fair & good for Pakistan.
@rehmat: Thank you sir for supporting and amplifying my argument. I am sorry being a Pakistani I do not have as much knowledge about India as I should have. I have visited India several times on business and social trips and I enjoyed the common desi culture and food very much. Cheers, Mirza
You would want the world to believe that pakistan is doing everything it can to root out terrorism and as a victim itself you cannot doubt it's sincerity in this issue. Pakistanis like yourselves feeling pained about Mumbai is not enough you should be embarrassed that your land is the sanctuary for these kind of acts. I think all of us will know to applaud a good gesture, unfortunately that is still missing.
Chaudhry saheb, If you don't want to read desi-Indian newspapers, koi gal nahi. Yeh lo-pardesi akhbar par lo. The 2012 Globe-Scan Pole for the BBC says that Pakistan is the second most negatively rated country in the world. http://www.globescan.com/commentary-and-analysis/press-releases/press-releases-2012/186-views-of-europe-slide-sharply-in-global-poll-while-views-of-china-improve.html
It is no longer a tamasha when for every 166 the response is 1660. Let us see how long you can take it.
Overall the comments are more succint than the article. The author should be commended for bringing out the best from his readers.
@mr. righty rightist: Thanks for being civil. Laa ilaha illal laho muhammad urrasool ullah. Al hamdo lillah, I am a born Pakistani and am fighting the terrorists and extremists who have waged a war against innocent citizens, minorities, smaller sects, women and all peace loving people of Pakistan. Personally if there is peace and progress in Pakistan it is not going to make a bit of difference for me. Or democracy and empowerment of poor masses is not going to help me personally. However, I am returning "mitti ka karaz". I hope you could see the sincerity and spontaneity in my post. BTW, it does not make any difference whether I am Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, or Pathan, I try to be a good human being all the time. Regards, Mirza
FIRST & FOREMOST:
put your OWN house in order and then, write these emotionally charged words for great countries like INDIA & US !!! Thanks
@Cosmo: Wonderfully put
@Anjum: 'As for Kashmir, siachen etc we simply have to solve them in the hard way with the nabour.' In the last 60+ years, how many inches of Kashmir or Siachen have conquered?"
Typical military mind set. The author believes that all those opposed to his views are connected with Indian interlligent agents using Pak names. I really feal pity for this thinking. He is not used to such type of criticism in Pakistan that is the problem with these type of Generals & Air Marshals who believes that either my way or high way
@not-an-indian: Well said my man. There is no original thought with these Indian trolls. You can spot them from a mile away.
“aiming to defile Pakistan as a dysfunctional, terror-sponsoring nation in the eyes of the world”
Isn’t that true?
“this, despite Pakistan paying in blood and treasure in this war on terror in proportions unmatched by any other country”
Whose fault is that?
@Mirza: "Muslims have been the president, VP, the richest men in India (Premji), top movie and money makers from Yousuf Khan to Shahrukh, to Salman to Amir, cricket captain, stars and the list goes on and on. Pathan Brothers who belong to a poor family would never be millionaire in Pakistan."
All true. Also Oscar winning music director (Rehman), 2 CJs have been Muslim, current CEC and Vice President of country are Muslim, Bharat Ratna awardees (which is the highest civilian honour in India) like Ustad Bismillah Khan.
While arranged marriages are obviously within own communities, there have been dozens of high profile Hindu Muslim marriages where Hindu men have married Muslim women and vice versa and public at large has not had any problem. Salman Khan and Saif Ali Khan by the way have Hindu mothers.
And all this while (and I have watched him on Indian TV too), I thought the AVM was evolving his views in the changed circumstances. I was wrong. He still doesn't get it. On one of Arnab's programs, I recall, he was going on about why India should forget Mumbai in the broader interest of the two countries etc. etc.. Maybe he should read the Hindu (of course, he does!), to get an idea of the depth of feeling of Indians (including Indian Muslims, 46 of whom were murdered at the Taj), before he starts accusing those who react to his bilge as GOI sponsored. I get the impression his handlers are a little concerned about what Abu Jundal is telling the Indians (and the world) and so the pre-emptive offensive.
" As a consequence, we remain stagnated and stunted." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The only statement of the author that i completely agree with.
@not-an-indian: "“… There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan …” This is a major talking point of almost all Indians of all stripes – they seem to be reading from the script." ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The talking point is that the Indian muslims lead happier , more peaceful and prosperous lives than those in Pakistan. And their children don't study in candle lights.
India made its muslim rocket scientist its President. When Pakistan makes a Hindu its President , we can talk.
Now about Indian media and your complain of media toeing same line. Reason is very simple Chaudhary saab. Indians are convinced beyond doubt that Pakistan is BAD GUY in every incidence where as Pakistani are not convinced that Pakistan is GOOD GUY in most incidences. Everyone including most rational Pakistani are convinced about Pakistani role in 26/11. Trust doesn't com easy, you have scarifies to earn trust and not blackmail with protecting OSAMA BIN LADEN in backyard. Your article reflects establishment's FIDAYANI mentality. Do this on our term OR ..( nuclear?).
@Mirza
This is not my right or ur duty. However, to clarify the likes of author, could you clarify if you are an Indian or a Pakistani and if you r a Pakistani, can you provide some believable proof.
Because if an educated person like the author can take someone like you for an Indian posing as a Pakistani or worse yet, a MUSLIM...what about all these ignorant commentators like Ali Tanoli, Kalachakra etc.
"Heck, there are more Pakistanis fighting India’s cause in many more innovative ways than what the world’s largest democracy can put together in a resurgent progressive-liberalist mould." Most brilliantly put sir, could'nt agree more.
@kaalchakra: So u presume that Indian muslims are gaddar
@Muhammad Shahid: who told u in india so called untouchable(sc) are 40% they are only 22% of total hindu epopulation .by the way muslim are not different than hindus in caste system .if hindus are bad than muslim are worst in caste system .specially south asian muslim.don't fool us we know every thing about dark site about south asian islamic sociaty.
There is no question there is small army of arm-chair. paid or unpaid Indian fanatics whose job it is to recommend anti-PK comments by their fellow writers. Didn't realize that Indians have bought into western-style propaganda so completely. I don't expect anything original from them but you got to hand it to them - they are great at mimicry.
Given Indian thinking regarding Pakistan, the policy starts and ends with 26/11. If any of the Indians know it any different then they should write it down for me. Pakistan is a smaller country than India but Pakistan is not really a small country. Indian policy as I see it is to maintain tense relations with Pakistan on one hand and follow America in their business and military projects around the globe. Pakistan should build deeper relation with other countries on the move in west central Asia and forget about Indian peace talks. Let them come back to the table with some solid proposals and focus on domestic issues. Future will take care of itself.
Really ?
Why don't you ask US to give you unfettered access to David Headley ? Did you try ? What was the result ?
@not-an-indian: Can u please shoot yourself?
@mahmood: Well, the author may think of u as a phony indian with a pakistani name. He has two primary beliefs: 1. No Pakistani can ever disagree with him. 2. Indian do not have muslims who voice their opinion.
It is so ammusing that with so much bias inhis heart he call himself an "Analyst". He sure does have a sense of irony!
I did not know that this much ignorance is required to be air vice-marshal
@Muhammad Shahid: "Great article. While dealing with Indian ruling elite, Pakistan should try to understand the mindset of Indian ruling elite."
Your mindset is very transparent for all to see. It doesn't take much brain power to figure out your mindset.
The author has clearly touched a RAW nerve of Indians :)
Indians may hate him but the author should be congratulated for speaking the truth. When one sees hordes of these 'Muslim' names raking Pakistan over the coals, constantly making mountains of molehills, badmouthing the army and the majority, making bizarre accusations with hardly any respect for the duties a Pakistani should owe to Pakistan and to the greater brotherhood of Islam, one sees Indian trolls hard at work. I don't know if they are paid or not, but Indians they are because they show every sign of unremitting hatred toward Pakistan. The author has got it exactly right - Muslim names cannot hide who these people are and what their ultimate agenda is.
"“By the time the day was out, about a 100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names”" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I can sense smug pride in the author's remark...as if he has scored a century in an India-Pak cricket match. Also a desperation in reinventing himself as an expert on Indio-Pak relations from a mere Defense Anaylist. If the author so indicates, all indians will stop commenting on his shallow writeups.
@not-an-indian: Muslims have been the president, VP, the richest men in India (Premji), top movie and money makers from Yousuf Khan to Shahrukh, to Salman to Amir, cricket captain, stars and the list goes on and on. Pathan Brothers who belong to a poor family would never be millionaire in Pakistan. I am not an authority on India by any means but this is what I can think at the top of my head.
Regards, Mirza
Was the author an officer in the Pakistan army who is always used to people bowing down to him and saying. "Yes sir!" ?
Instead of correcting the factual errors in his previous article, he seems to be abusing the people who gave him some "feedback". Maybe even after leaving the army, he still expects people to bow down to him. Noooooo Sir! Ain't going to happen. Maybe 10 years back when there was no widely prevalent mass communication technologies, he would have said whatever he wanted and nobody would have had the means to give him "feedback". This is 2012. So that game won't work anymore.
Portraying Pakistan as the epostlle of Peace ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ hemmed in by non cooperation from india in prosecuting the 26/11 case against the master minds ( both state and non state).
This depiction is rather unrealistic and self serving and at least the Indian reader is not so gullible as to fall for it.
" Prime Minister Raja Pervaiz Ashraf, the lame duck newbie whose tenure is tenuous and very temporary." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Quoted from another article in this newspaper.
So who should India negotiate with?
Well nobody till the elections are over and a new Govt has settled down ( if its settles down!) and what levers the establishment pulls on that new Govt.
The author writes engagingly, but style is no substitute for substance ! Given Pakistan's dismal record of jihadi-perpetuation, backstabbing, and deceit as a national pastime, no one needs another "has-been" tinsel analyst like Shahzad to mouth the Pak army's propaganda.
@Nadir: It's not lazy racism. Go surf this site and any other Pakistani on line newspaper and you will them inundated with Pakistan obsessed Indians who have nothing better to do. The fact that you are here too is just another indication of this reality. The truth is that the author had some very legitimate and accurate points that you Indians wish to brush away. Rather than confront this reality, it is easier to play your games of posting nonsense under fake and phoney names.
"India’s proclivity to prescribe and dictate resolutions to the vexing problems countervails the well-intended effort of the dialogue process. It may actually have regressed South Asia down the slippery slope to older paradigms." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ And what about Pakistan's proclivity re state and non state sponsored Terror? Does that not regress South Asia down the slippery slope to older paradigms.?
In any case Pakistan's credibility post OBL is sub zero!
@not-an-indian: Indian interlopers including confused indian muslims – can you stop whining about Bombay.
Confused Indian Muslims? Like the relatives of one of those Indian Muslims who were killed at Victoria Terminus on 26/11?
ET: The previous OpEd the author is referring to has a total 88 comments many disagreeing with the author on actual facts and some differing with his conclusions. The author takes offense and writes a whole new OpEd in which he makes the following overt and covert accusations: 1) those disagreeing with him are paid to do so thereby questioning the integrity of pretty much all your readers 2) some of those that are criticizing him are Indian pretending to be Pakistanis. In doing so he demonstrates: - racism by implying that there are no Muslims in India AND - arrogance by assuming that no Pakistani could possibly disagree with him.
If you believe your readers need to be treated with respect then perhaps this gentleman needs to be coached to not show such blatant disrespect for your readers.
@Aarvey : Bombay attack occurred in 2008 and yet you can't get past it. Pretty lame.
In the ultimate analysis, all Pakistanis think of Mumbai as some kind of "tamasha" that Indians deserved, ergo, expressions such as "milking Mumbai" are being used.
"The great India-Pakistan tamasha" ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Hos is that different from:
The great US-Pakistan tamasha or The great Afghanistan-Pakistan tamasha
The common factor being Paksitan!
India will not shake hands with a Fist. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ That too a duplicitous, deceitful, denying Fist.
not-an-indian. We will stop whining about Mumbai, when pakistan stop whining about the 30000 deaths which itself is a propagated lie and the begging Pakistan does. We will stop whining about Mumbai, when true colours of Pak state is exposed and the culprits punished. Game for it ?
Author earlier on Indian channel has said that India is milking Mumbai terror attack.He is callous and has no sensitivity to a crime against humanity.It is not India only which is blaming Pakistan but others also; read German Ambassador Michael Steiner statement "it did not matter whether the terror charges are proved in a court of law or not, but it was necessary that Pakistan clarify the "clear distinction" between its state institutions and terror outfit"http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-07-14/india/326744181abu-jundal-mumbai-terror-terror-attacks
@not-an-indian: Can you stop whining about drone strikes and how the US, India , Israel are out to get you and wakeup to reality?
While india has allowed the Paki judicial commission to atleast visit India and record statements of judicial officials, Pakistan has not yet responded positively to Indian request to offer the exact same permission to Indian judicial team to go to Pakistan and record the statements of judicial officials involved in the 26/11 Adiala trial of Mr Lakhvi and Zarar Shah.
India should go ahead and expose Pakistan's bluff even further by agreeing to let Pakistan cross examine Indian witnesses in exchange of India cross examining the witnesses and accused in 26/11 in Pakistan. That would give india access to interrogate LeT masterminds mr Lakhvi and Zarar Shah. I am sure, Pakistan would never agree to it but would help expose their position.
terrible analysis by author, such bigotry and racism. he is only furthering mistrust and hatred between India and Pakistan.
However, Indians should have cooperated with our prosecution team and ALLOWED them access to all intel and prisoners upon the visit. Them not doing that completely invalidates the prosecution. I have lost so much respect for Indian policy because of that move because they have made it internationally and legally impossible to bring justice to those pathetic individuals that bombed Mumbai, the city of my ancestry (even though I am Pakistani).
@Vikram "...For convictions to take place, India will need to seriously shift modes from being confrontationist and prescriptive to being cooperative, if indeed closure is what India seeks..."
We are right here - we will be waiting.
You folks are historically keen on verbal sparring. I would suggest you don't deviate from your national character.
For convictions to take place, India will need to seriously shift modes from being confrontationist and prescriptive to being cooperative, if indeed closure is what India seeks.
Mr defence analyst, ISI planned the attack. Evidence is right there in Pakistan if some one tries to find it. ISI destroyed the control room from where terrorists were guided. Pakistan government provided terrorists with passport, ID catrds and overseas Pakisatni card. Terrorist Jundal also told the story, how LeT men dressed in Indian army uniiform killed 35 Sikhs before Clinton's visit to India and blamed Indian army for that.
The prime accused in the 26/11 case are Lashker-e-Taiba operatives Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi and Zarar Shah , who are in Pakistan custody.Mr Kasav, the 9 other accomplices that attacked Mumbai on 26/11, Mr Daood Geelani alias Mr Headley and mr Ansari etc are just foot soldiers in the conspiracy. Pakistan can find out the minutest details of the 26/11 attack and conspiracy by interrogating the masterminds , Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi who was the military commander of the attack and Zarar Shah, who was the communication expert. There is no need for any judicial commission to go anywhere. Interestingly most commentators in Pakistan media, avoid any mention of this two masterminds.
Latest Pakistan Tamasha
Taliban kill 14 Shia relatives in Orakzai * Dead include three women, two 11-year-old boys, a three-year-old girl
Taliban say they ‘targeted them because they were Shias, they are enemies of Islam’Well written, Indians are learning from Americans and Israelis how to use their media. All thus drama, but we should play expose them better, I would say. Otherwise they will continue forever! But it will boomerang them as Pak is no Arab nor North Korean. We are a democracy, with flaws yet, but a strong nation. We just stay put on our national interest, and fight these foes intelligently. As for Kashmir, siachen etc we simply have to solve them in the hard way with the nabour. Pak zindabad.
So my dear Author, instead of showing a little bit of dignity in accepting that you did not do enough research on the Headley and did not know that he was interviewed by India, you make arrogant comments on Indian Media and make it seem to be the worlds problem and you are not at fault!!!! If u need to be taken as a serious author you need to make sure that you know that what you write is facts and not something which suits you whims and hence pulled out from figment of your imagination! And can you please dare to explain to the readers here what is a Pakistani Name? All of us are very eager to hear an answer from you. If you are not aware of what is going on in India (since u do not read Hindu or any Indain paper for that mater! (btw..I wonder if you would have read it if it was titled 'Islam') the Indian Muslim population is very much comparable to the Pakistaini population and Majority of them are hardcore patriots who would defend their motherland. And I have been reading couple of Pakistani News sites for a couple of years now and know that there are a small percentage of pakistanis who see the bigger picture and how folks like you try to create a boogey man out of India to further your own interests and they would also validly post coments on your articles when it does not make sense to them. And please please stop living in a fools land that its only Pakistan which owns the copyright on Islamic sounding names...!!
If the authors arguments were factually wrong the last time, they are more bizarre and incoherant today. Accusing critics to be Indians employed by a central agency has done great damage to the authors credibility.
"India’s media, in cahoots with vested interests, preempts any possibility of progress with persistent vituperation aiming to defile Pakistan as a dysfunctional, terror-sponsoring nation in the eyes of the world; this, despite Pakistan paying in blood and treasure in this war on terror in proportions unmatched by any other country in the world. "
So according to the author - Iran accuses Pakistan of supporting Jundullah due to Indian media? - China accuses Pakistan of supporting terrorism in Xinxiang province due to Indian media? - US accuses Pakistan of supporting the Haqqani network due to Indian media? - UK says that 70% of terrorist plots in UK have a Pakistani link due to Indian media?
By the way, it is true that Pakistan has spent blood and treasure going after TTP which is killing Pakistanis. Every country spends blood and treasure in dealing with internal insurgencies. India does so with Maoists, Sri Lanka did so against LTTE. However going after TTP does not mean it is serious about stopping terror export to the world.
The arrogance of the uninformed writer is astounding, but true to form.
Great article. While dealing with Indian ruling elite, Pakistan should try to understand the mindset of Indian ruling elite. Pakistan must not forget that they are dealing with a world's most notorious racist regime which has declared about 40% of their own population as untouchables (Dalits). India is a country which has something wrong with all its neighbors. India fought wars with Pakistan & China. Intervened in Sri Lanka & created Tamil Tigers. India created Mukti Bahni in East Pakistan & helped Bangladesh for independence but still there are continuous boarders clashes with Bangladesh Forces & people of Bangladesh are against India. The world's only Hindu state Nepal always has problems with India. Indian ruling elite can cross every limit even in their own country weather it is the demolition of Akal Takht or Babri Mosque. Indian media is controlled by the big corporate houses and upper class elite.
So it is the policy of India to never talk about main issues such as Kashmir, water dispute etc.
@Mirza. "... There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan ..."
This is a major talking point of almost all Indians of all stripes - they seem to be reading from the script.
At any rate my answer : So what !! They also happen to be the most resource-less and terrified citizens of Hindustan. Who are you kidding ?
"One, I don’t follow The Hindu; in fact, I don’t follow any Indian newspaper for their boringly similar reporting on Pakistan, which mirrors India’s official position"
As a free man in a free country, you are entirely free to choose what you read. However if you plan to write an OpEd on indo-Pak relations, it might be helpful to do some research to at least check factual accuracy of what you are stating. Failure to do so affects your own credibility.
This article is shocking. The author is enraged at the many factual errors in his previous opinion piece. Most likely , he thinks I am one of those "Indian agents employed by a central agency". The author had lost credibility in the last opinion piece. Today he lost respect.
"including some with Pakistani names." Sir "if you cannot stand the heat get out of the kitchen," I am appalled to note that you have such a low threshold to bear criticism . First of all there is not much intellect enhancing content in whatever you write apart from hate mongering through misinformation then what is the problem, if someone does not agree with your point of view and leaves a comment that does not make him or her an Indian or a lesser Pakistani. I am an American of Pakistani origin and my question to you. "What is it if I may know that distinguish Pakistani name from a Muslim's name living in India or for that matter living in Timbuktu?"
“when you are orchestrated as a hired hand by a central authority, you do as you are ordained and conveniently overlook the niceties of any argument”
How I wish I was a RAW agent paid to constantly belittle Pakistan on ET, alas I have to earn my money the hard way :(
@antanu g: "@Anishurrahman: so….being muslims made them non – indian? author never implied hindu or muslim. get rid of your narrow mindedness and learn to take note of the reality which the author has discussed"
It is not Anishurrahman but the author who has implied that anyone with a Muslim name who criticized him must be an Indian pretending to be a Pakistani. In other words - Pakistani could possibly criticize him - There are no Muslim Indians
So yes there was narrow mindedness displayed ut it was displayed by the author.
Has Pakistan allowed Indian investigators or American investigators access to question and examine the 26/11 masterminds and leaders in Pakistan custody ? No. The reason, as Pak says is that there is no such treaty governing such acceess between India and Pakistan. Thats exactly the same reason why Pakistani investigators were not allowed access to those in Indian custody. However, couple of years ago, India and Pakistan reached an agreement to allow judicial teams from each others countries to visit to record statements of judicial officials. Thats what India allowed Pakistan in the 26/11 case. Pakistan is yet to reciprocate that by allowing India to visit Adiala prison to record the statements of judicial officials involved in the case in Pakistan. India says, Pakistan already has a mountain of evidense with which it can prosecute and punish the 26/11 perpetrators, its leaders and handlers if it had the will and the intent to do so.
Indian interlopers including confused indian muslims - can you stop whining about Bombay.
Reflexive relations and balance of power
India to Pakistan is what China is to India despite of belligerence of Pakistan.
Afghanistan to Pakistan is what Pakistan is to India.
India does not want do what Pakistan has been doing in India but India must do in Afghanistan what China has been doing in Pakistan.
This is called balance of terror and horror.
Lacks introspection...
Pakistani names?
Such as Kaalchakra and Antanu G both are -100% patented Pakistani names
"The dialogue process continues without much success. If a few months back, there seemed to be progress on visa facilitation and Sir Creek, it now seems held back by India’s exploitatively evolving position on Siachen"
India home secretary had gone to Pakistan ready to sign more liberal visa norms. It is Rehman Malik who chose not to sign. This was widely reported even in Pakistani media - not just Hindu. http://tribune.com.pk/story/384423/pakistan-india-talks-new-visa-regime-hits-last-minute-snag/
Also a meeting was scheduled to discus Sir Creek in May and it was potponed by Pakistan until such time as agreement could be reached on Siachen. These talks were held in on June 18-19 during which some progress was made Both the initial postponement by linking it with siachen by Pakistan and the eventual talk was reported in Pakistani media. http://www.lhrtimes.com/2012/06/19/pak-india-start-talks-on-sir-creek
The Pakistani ambassador to India Salman Bashir has said that there has been a sea change in the atmospherics of India Pakistan relationship. This is different from your assessment that Indian media isspewing hate preventing progress. This too was reported in Pakistani press. http://dawn.com/2012/07/16/sea-change-in-atmospherics-with-india-pak-envoy/
author, your status does not demand arogance and insultry behaviour towards readers of your article on the basis of difference of opinions.and for your dismay there is a big class of pakistanis who is much sohisticated in its thoughts and will resist any wrong logic or hypocratic stand.i salute to ET for providing us such a gteat plate forum to take some breath
The author says, "It meant zilch to the larger argument I was making in that article, but no, when you are orchestrated as a hired hand by a central authority, you do as you are ordained and conveniently overlook the niceties of any argument." Yes I had also commented on your previous article and I want to tell you, for your surprise, that I'm an ordinary Indian, not a hired hand of a central authority, as you alleged. Why don't you get it Chaudhry Sahab that anger in India over Mumbai attacks is genuine and conspicuous on the face of every concerned Indian? And we are incensed that our government is not taking this matter seriously and not going after those guys who committed that horrible crime. On a lighter note I wish I could be hired by the RAW or IB though.
Pakistan had chosen to move beyond Kashmir, but the recent discovery of unmarked secret graves of thousands of Kashmiris is once again likely to figure as serious human rights violation needing immediate international attention. Baluchistan needs a more immediate international attention than Kashmir.
@Shahzad Chaudhry, Are you sure that all Pakistanis agree with your point of view? Does it mean that if a Pakistani disagrees with you and comments on your article criticizing your approach, you'll term him an Indian posing as a Pakistani?
India’s media, in cahoots with vested interests, preempts any possibility of progress with persistent vituperation aiming to defile Pakistan as a dysfunctional, terror-sponsoring nation in the eyes of the world; Does Indian media really need to do that?
One, I don’t follow The Hindu; in fact, I don’t follow any Indian newspaper for their boringly similar reporting on Pakistan, which mirrors India’s official position. I mean come on ..this is the official position of the world in general.
your vocabulary is meant for a literary man and not a man, i mean a simple reader. take care.
@Shahzad Chaudhry, Can I tell you a secret? You're too narrow-minded. You must not forget that there are more Muslims living in India than Pakistan. Thus if an Indian Muslim comments on your article, don't assume that he or she's an Indian Hindu posing as a Pakistani. How grotesque !
@ Ali Tanoli..
Very well said it sir i agreed it to all and i will say sir champions of human rights and so called any world body even libral or ignorant muslims Rich countries peroples and leader including pakistan shurfah thieves and rich fuedal dont see whats going on in kashmir and in palestine since 1947/48 and if one say he is terrorist because he or she dont speak there anti muslim lang . forget it those problems in last fourty plus yerars more three millions muslims got killed allready please non muslims peoples considered them human atleast and specially indians brothers…….
What are you actually trying to say ???? Scratching my head ..!!
By the time the day was out, about a 100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names, There is nothing called Pakistani name.
@Mahmood makes a brilliant point the constant noise that all of Pakistan's neighbors are to blame for the pitiful way of life is a delay mechanism that seems to weave itself into the fabric of our society. Giving Israel is a great example do they have corruption flowing freely through their society they have a conservative religious group but do they participate in ethnic cleansing? Do the people involve themselves in keeping their neighborhoods safe and clean? There is no pride among its citizens who take energy in keeping their living areas clean when was the last time people did a massive cleanup of their surrounding areas? The mentality in Pakistan is get your cake and screw the rest not having nationalist pride is just a great sound bite for the masses so we all deserve the pathetic condition we wlive in we created it!
Very well said it sir i agreed it to all and i will say sir champions of human rights and so called any world body even libral or ignorant muslims Rich countries peroples and leader including pakistan shurfah thieves and rich fuedal dont see whats going on in kashmir and in palestine since 1947/48 and if one say he is terrorist because he or she dont speak there anti muslim lang . forget it those problems in last fourty plus yerars more three millions muslims got killed allready please non muslims peoples considered them human atleast and specially indians brothers.......
@Author, We all, in India and Pakistan, need to understand that the Mumbai attack is something that cannot be brushed under the carpet. The people of India can clearly see that Pakistan has not done anything to bring the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks to justice. If Pakistan seriously wants to have good relations with us then they must do something on Mumbai attacks and assure us that that kind of heinous and audacious attack will never take place in the future. We just cannot forget Mumbai attacks and that makes it extremely difficult for us to normalize relations with Pakistan. Pakistani government and Pakistani people must come out denial mode. It's high time.
A sensible article...should not be taken as anti-india or pro-pakistan ....we have hawks and game-spoilers on both sides of the devide and should try to neutralize them for lasting peace in the region. Author has raised genuine points which must be taken seriously.
@Anishurrahman: so....being muslims made them non - indian? author never implied hindu or muslim. get rid of your narrow mindedness and learn to take note of the reality which the author has discussed. Like akistan, we also have our hawks in all walks of lives.denying this will not alter the truth.
Indians are here in full force and predictably doing what is expected of them.
I will tell you a secret. Bashing Pakistan is my favorite passtime.
If "when you are orchestrated as a hired hand by a central authority, you do as you are ordained and conveniently overlook the niceties of any argument" were true, I wud be earning for what shud be my hobby.
What better way to earn a living than this?
Oh, how I wish.
@gp65, yes I'm sure he knows many of indian trolls are muslims, what is your point?
The article itself was great, but the points about India's press and Pakistani press was hilarious. Great article!
If a few months back, there seemed to be progress on visa facilitation
To the best knowledge of the rest of us it was Pakistan who postponed it. But then Pakistanis , specially Military think tanks know all.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/182636-siachen-card-pak-puts-off-visa-agreement.html
And perhaps the biggest blunder - "...100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names..." - really! Perhaps the author forgets that there are as many if not more Muslims living on the Indian side of the border or does Pakistan have a copyright on Islamic names!
Sorry man.. But there are muslims in India too with somewhat Pakistani types name and who don't trust pakistan's narration. Sorry to burst your bubble but you are too narrow minded.
"By the time the day was out, about a 100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names"
Sir, are you aware that of the 1.2 bilion indians, 150 million are Muslim. So wat you may be calling a 'Pakistani name' may actually simply be an Indian Muslim? Also is it so inconceivable to you that an actual Pakistani might disagree with you?
@Hasan, his view is not arrogant, he has every right to ridicule bigoted indian trolls.
Ha! Now we get to see the true establishment line and its sorry paranoia regarding all things Indian. By the time the day was out, about a 100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names..... Sir - if you want to say muslim, say muslim. We are no longer in the 60s when Indian muslims were still ambivalent about their identity. ....but no, when you are orchestrated as a hired hand by a central authority...Amazing - you think that India needs to employ people to come onto ET and deliver their opinion? I don't know whether to feel insulted, or amused or just plain sorry for you. My postulation is she doesn’t..... You are correct - India is fairly realistic when it comes to an assessment of Pakistan. We have no expectations of closure and there are enough data points now to support this hypothesis. ....it was Abu Jundal who dominated the airwaves, - yes, we should have asked Saudi Arabia to time his extradition in a manner more sensitive to Pakistan - a point you surprisingly omitted from this op-ed whose comments you are referring to. If bilateral engagement between the two remains as non-productive as it has in all these years, it is likely that Pakistan will go the route of international mediation.... Umm... international mediation requires participation of both parties, you may have missed that out. Pakistan had chosen to move beyond Kashmir... Can we take that as the official line? ...but the recent discovery of unmarked secret graves of thousands of Kashmiris is once again likely to figure as serious human rights violation needing immediate international attention. The truth is that Pakistan does not let any opportunity go by; unfortunately, this also means that you don't have any cards in reserve to play.
India knows they have laughable evidence which is why the don't want this case to actually progress yet they want to continue taking cheap shots at Pakistan.
Brilliant article.
The author raises some legitimate issues but blissfully ignores the pattern that the rest of the World seems to see --- anytime the "establishment" is implicated Pakistan never does anything other than go through the motions. BTW how's that Abbottabad Commission doing - nobody in India or the USA is getting in your way on that one are they?
What do you mean by "about a 100 odd Indians of the 1.2 billion, including some with Pakistani names"? What exactly is a "Pakistani name"? Please stop perpetuating this lazy racism!
Mumbai cannot be brushed off no matter how much you try. There are covert ways of getting justice, which India should have had the guts to evoke long ago. No worry, there is always time to begin anew. Special forces and Intelligence are not the sole forte of Pakistan Mr. Chaudhary. India can use them too.