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Egos, armies of India, Pakistan biggest hurdle to Siachen peace: Mukhtar
Mukhtar says Pakistan expects India to demonstrate magnanimity by making the first move.
Mukhtar says that both Pakistan and India stood to benefit from resolving Siachen issue. PHOTO: AGENCIES
ISLAMABAD: With Pakistan Army Chief having recently stated that Pakistan wants a resolution to the Siachen issue, Defence Minister Ahmed Mukhtar pointed out to BBC Urdu that the biggest hurdle in resolving the icy issue were armies of both Pakistan and India.
In an interview to the Urdu-language version of the British news service, Mukhtar said that both Pakistan and India would stand to benefit from resolving the Siachen issue.
In response to a question, he said reminded that Siachen was Pakistan territory and when India claimed it was theirs, Pakistan responded. However, he said that the only way to coexist was to sit at the table, discuss the matter. He pointed out that neither Pakistan nor India stood to gain anything from the stand-off on world’s highest battleground, rather it more to satiate respective egos. However, it remains to be seen what does this cost both sides.
“We think we can come to an agreement. India wants to talk on the Sir Creek issue first, we want to talk about Siachen first – the same issue of egos.”
“I think Chief of Army Staff Ashfaq Pervez Kayani understands this issue better than all of us and will help reach a decision when the time comes.”
When asked that he, being the Minister for Defence, was higher placed than the Army Chief, would he then allow a rank subordinate to take a decision, Mukhtar said that ‘Kayani would offer guidance – support, just as the government cooperates and supports the army.’
When asked if Pakistan wants a solution, why does it not make the first move (withdraw unilaterally), Mukhtar responded that India was a big country, and Pakistan expects that it would demonstrate magnanimity by making the first move.
In response to another question, he said that Prime Ministers of both countries, Yousaf Raza Gilani of Pakistan, and Manmohan Singh of India, wanted to resolve the Siachen issue via dialogue.
When asked that since the governements of both India and Pakistan wanted a resolution, what was stopping them, the Defence Minister smiled and said that the hurdles were in what had been talked about earlier, the armies of both countries.
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i agree with the pakistan army on this issue..
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It is about time that the elected govt start talking open and tough. The two armies should not make this issue as an honor point and come down their high horses. Peace and democracy with mutual coexistence is the only solution to the poverty and hatred. With this free and fair thinking on the part of the minister, no wonder the army does not trust any (PPP) elected govt.
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If armies of both countries , as per Pak defense minister Mr Mukhtar are responsible for stalemate, then how is Mr Kayani going to find the solution , when he is part of the problem ?
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india occupied the territory in 1984. They need to back off first
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This is perhaps the first ever sane statement I’ve ever come across a Pakistani politician! Yes, the people have terrible egos across both sides of the divide. And, yes, the armies do not want people to exist in peace because establishment of peace means no jobs for the khakis, no perks, and no more allocation of hefty budgets. The employ scare or intimidating tactics in order to instill hatred amongst people, forgetting absolutely that India and Pakistan formed one single country for centuries together. Anyway, I’m glad someone spoke up. It remains to be seen how he’ll be allowed to stay in office by the khakis!
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India should not pull out from Siachen under any conditions. Pakistan and India may sign an agreement that their armies shall withdraw and that they shall not re-occupy. But there is nothing to ensure that China shall not walk in. The China-Pak nexus is well known.
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Indian army is insisting on the signing of actual ground position and our ego is preventing us from signing actual ground position as we will have to eat proverbial humble pie. In my opinion there are number of flaws in his rationale. E.g. “India is bigger country” Gimme a break as per two nation theory you are equal to India. Talk on substance not on the size of the country.
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These are just games played by the military and politicians of Pakistan to force India to compromise on Siachen. Do not fall for their tricks India!
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North means north, not northeast . Read Simla agreement, take a map, put a compass on it and find north, and draw line.
India was very magnanimous in Simla agreement.
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Indian magnanimity evaporated after Kargil and Mumbai Attacks. So thats out of question.
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Mr Mukhtar pls suggest something thats workable.
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“Mukhtar responded that India was a big country, and Pakistan expects that it would demonstrate magnanimity by making the first move” I thought we were two equal sovereign countries..
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Take out the egos, prejudice, and resulting hatred and then we could start moving towards the direction of peace, co-existence, and mutual respect. But alas, we are not sane and civilised enough to show this maturity which most of the Europe did after the Second World War; perhaps we need more bloodshed, death, and destruction to rinse this blindness of abhorrence.
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Why should we withdraw our own land, as for Pakistan withdrawal they are not on saichen so where will they withdraw from, just because their Gayari base is destroyed they want India to withdraw.
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@Mirza: Mirzaji, the Indian army DOES NOT have the ability to dictate foreign policy. Yes it is true that in 1989 Indian defence minister ( a civilian) had a different opinion from the Indian foreign minister and the defence minister’s view prevailed. In subsequent years there was a robust debate in India about the Siachen solution. The game changer was KArgill. After Pakistan’s duplicity in Kargill there has been a unanimity in India – not just between two cabinet ministies but also across party lines.
This thus is not an issue of ego as Mr. Mukhtar states. It is an issue of a realistic appraisal of risks. India wants Pakistan to authenticate the AGPL and delineate it before it vacates Siachen.
Also Pakistan media is providing incorrect facts by not clearly stating that Pakistan is not present in Siachen – only on its Western slopes. In other words, if Siachen was to be vacated, it would be only India that would do that and it needs AGPL to be authenticated which Pakistan army is unwilling to do.
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@Faesal: “india occupied the territory in 1984. They need to back off first”
Why?
According to Simla agreement, the line of control should be based on NJ9842 and thence North to the glaciers. According to that which both countries signed, Siachen is on Indian side of line of control.
You tried to attack India and capture Siachen heights a number of times in the 1980s but were unsuccessful.
Then you sent thousand of Mujahidins into India but did not shake Indian rsolve
Then you did Kargill and by cutting of logistic supplies tried to gain Siachen that way but India dislodged you from Kargill.
India is not complaining about costs of maintaining presence in Siachen, Pakistan is. Why should India vacate Siachen unilaterally when Pakisan was unable to do so through military and militancy?
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Don’t think India will leave their posts in Siachen unless their last position is acknowledged on the map. Pakistan can stay there if they want or quit unilaterally.
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After Mumbai, India should not give a quarter to Pakistan on ANY issue. Take it or leave it should be their motto.
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It is not egos of Indian army.It is Pride and proud moments of Indian army-Liberation of Bangladesh,Conquering Siachen and victory of Kargil war.India will never pull out from Siachen and Kashmir under any conditions.
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Isn’t he the same guy who wanted to gift Gwadar port to chinese about a year ago and the chinese did not even know any thing about the surprise gift. Recommend
North means NORTH …… NOT ….. NORTH EAST !!!!
its only the education thats received in Pakistan takes it to that misunderstanding of the word… Otherwise … Pakistani army is very very peace lovong …
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The whole of area upto Hindu-Kush region belongs to India. You Arabs need to go back to Arabia.
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It was India who disregarded the Shimla agreement by violating this clause below when they occupied Siachen glacier and thus altered the state of the LoC. Shimla agreement was already dead in letter and spirit after Pakistan had to respond to Indian aggression.
As an aside, the “north to the glaciers” line is something I have been unable to source to the Shimla agreement. If any Indian has a legitimate source for this, please post it.
“In Jammu and Kashmir, the Line of Control resulting from the cease-fire of December 17, 1971, shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides further undertake to refrain from the threat or use of force in violation of this line.”
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All Pakistanis and Indians pray that it works. However, we have to be careful of ‘crackpot’ extremists on both sides of this unmarried divide. If it works, hurrah! we can have a common connubial border. Yes, really we can and lets all look up to it. Salams
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@Babloo: My dear Babloo! General Kayani first suggested de-militarization of Siachen, after the snow slide that took so many valuable lives. Again, my dear Babloo! General Kayani suggested developing and strengthening the economy without which, no country can progress or support the armed forces. Recommend
Very impressive statements given by Ahmed Mukhtar if this so then Mr. Ahmed Mukhtar hand over India whole Siachen because Indian army chief and defense minister have already given their statements in clear words openly that Indian army shall not be withdrawn from Siachen.
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In Indian Army, the Chief goes to a civilian court to settle disagreements with the government and Lt Gens are kicked out without benefits and pension for corruption.
So, don’t accuse Indian Army of pursuing ego driven policies and forcing civilian establishment to comply.
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US doesnt trust Pakistan, NATO doesnt trust Pakistan, Afghanistan doesnt trust Pakistan
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Why should India trust Pakistan?
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@Faesal:
“india occupied the territory in 1984. They need to back off first”
By that definition, Pakistan should withdraw from Kashmir!
What ego is this guy talking about? India wants to have their positions signed by their pak counterparts and move down. What is so hard about this?
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How can Pakistan trust India when India occupied Siachen illegally…!
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I feel Siachen is Indian territory. Pakistan and India must accept the current boundaries LOC and Siachen as International borders. Pakistan must give up her claim on Indian Kashmir and India must give up her claim on Pok. Then both nations could live in peace.
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It is a matter of fact statement by the Pakistan Defence Minister except that the two armies come in the way of settlement. The issue is between two countries involving territorial claims solution can not be one sided.
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The reason why Pakistan’s economy is going SOUTH is because they do not know the meaning of NORTH
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We understnd why Pakistan is in a hurry to vacate Siachin…Becoz it does not have the finance to pay for $ 15 million as daily maintenence cost at Siachin….But India does…….And talking about the magnanimity, India did show that during the 2000 Wagah Bus service resumption….Pakistan responded with Kargil, Chittisingpura, Mumbai, Akshardham, Again Mumbai and Delhi..The list is endless……So forget about the magnanimity (more due t the Gyari incidence) and focus on some other issues rather…like providing electricity to common Pakistanis, running the railways, dealing with Sindi, Pastun, and Baloochi separatists, solving the Lyari ridlle ..Dont forget that.Indians are no longer FOOLs to be taken by you…and neither the world is either including your trusted Allies USA & CHINA.
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Agree with the minister. Armies of India and Pakistan should think of their poor people.
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@Nikarish: It was our position until winter 1984, indian army realized after 37 years that it was their position ?????????????????????
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Wow. What a level of understanding. God bless water and power…
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When spending on the army Pakistan wants to keep parity with big country India. But when it comes for any negotiations with India on any issue, it wants India to show magnanimity. Sometimes it says it wants to negotiate as an equal side. Some other times it says that it needs concessions and magnanimity. Is it not double standard?
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No concession on Siachin from Indian side. Pakistan has nothing to offer in return.
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@Zalim Singh: I am not a fundamental muslim but i believe that Jihad is the only solution to this issue and india will soon realize this
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Indians occupied Sachien first so they should back-off from that land
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@Imran
It was our position until winter 1984
It was not, my uninformed friend. It was unoccupied, Indian army legally occupied it in 1984 since we realized that you were going to occupy it illegally
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Indian trolls here in full force.
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@Faesal:
and pakistan occupied pakistan administrated kashmir (so called aajad kashmir) in 1948. so they should backoff too.
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I don’t think India should withdraw even if Pakistan signs AGPL. Suppose Pakistan does sign and India decides to pull back their troops, what guarantee is there that Pakistan will not repeat a ‘Kargil’? The only way to vacate them is by military force which is more expensive in life and material. The other option is to go to UN. China will veto any resolution favorable to India.
An even worse scenario – Pakistan will request the Chinese to occupy Siachen and China will be more than happy to oblige. Indian army is no match to China. India will not be able to evict the chinese by force and the Chinese will drag this on or veto it, if it goes to the UN. The rest of the UN permanent members will just ignore it or, being a more powerful country, take China’s side since Siachen is of no strategic importance for the other P4 of UN.
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A very sane statement though I don’t expect ET to post my comments!
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Just to be in the good books of China Pakistan is gifting it land. Look where is Pakistan heading? And Siachen issue has got nothing to do with the ego of the Indian army it’s the Indian people who will scream their heads off if Indian govt tries to negotiate evacuating it. And I of course will never vote for the party who will do this. And likewise it would be my advice to all fellow Indians not to fall into this trap.
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@varun, “aajad” kashmir is not occupied by Pakistan.
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Pakistan is facing the heat because it knows that the huge cost has already made a hole in their pocket. India doesn’t have that problem. Although I am for demilitaralization because of environmental concern.
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absolutely correct. Our politicians speak truth sometime.
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India does’nt trust Pakistan so wont vacate siachen. If India vacates Siachen then Pakistan after collaborating with its “All weather friend(China)” will do some misadventure.
By the way If Pakistan Loves Kashmir so much then why they gifted part of Kashmir to china.
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@ayesha_khan:
Sir, Its not about that Indian Army doesnt have ability to run foreign policy.
Actually the fact is that today we are in modern era where Armies/Airforce are & should become dormant. Today we dont need to extend our boundaries rather we need to extend our economies . So Army Chief does’nt deserve to play any role in Modern days politics. They were important during mid 20 th century.
Now economists & IT have taken over the Power.
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Both countries should vacate the areas occupied in the name of honor. Make it a picnic point which should be jointly manned by the soldiers of both the countries. Create some history and come out of Egos Point.for the sake of poor on both sides of the border.
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@Faesal:
No going to happen because Pakistan will sneak in just like in Kargil!
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@SouthEastAsian:
They can’t, they are not there. As usual, Pakistan is spreading myth.
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@Pungi:
No one is asking Pakistan to so, don’t. Indian’s all over the world don’t give a damn if Pakistan, and China trusts India or not.
Besides we don’t trust either of you and won’t in a million years.
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@Aftab Kenneth Wilson:
You have no idea where this is and decided to pipe in.
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<p>@Mirza:
can’t agree more.this is the only way out.</p>Recommend
Seeing above comments and likes, it occurs to me that mostly Indians read ET.
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Going against the army means preparing for elections. The whole scenario will be generated against Military Aamar and hence the votes of the poor nation would be begged in the name of worst democracy is better than best Aamriyat.
After experiencing this tenure of democracy I have started to believe that democracy is the best revange. AAZ has taken his revange from the people of pakistan.
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@the Skunk: “My dear Babloo! General Kayani first suggested de-militarization of Siachen, after the snow slide that took so many valuable lives”.
Talk is cheap. He is unwilling to do what it takes to demilitarize/ That is ego because he would have to authenticate AGPL which in fact would be admission that Pakistan army has been unable to dislodge India in 28 years and is unlikely to do so in future.. He also deliberately led people to believe that India is trying to take advantage of the Gayari tragedy and has hardened it stance since 1989. HE knows the fact however that the stance was hardened not since Gayari but since 1999 due to Kargill.
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“When asked if Pakistan wants a solution, why does it not make the first move (withdraw unilaterally), Mukhtar responded that India was a big country, and Pakistan expects that it would demonstrate magnanimity by making the first move.”
This is sort of emotional blackmail and disingenuous to boot.
It’s like India asking Pakistan to show more reverence to India because Pakistan is a small country.Is Pakistan going to plead US to write off it’s loans because US is richer than Pakistan.
Countries are big or small because of accident of history.International relationships are purely transactional, difference in land mass or population size has nothing to do with it.
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India has shown it’s magnaminity when they repatriated 90,000 pows, instead of handing them over to Bangladesh.
You don’t need to be very creative to imagine their fate,considering the mood prevailing in Bangladesh at the time.
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@Dr Vikas: “Sir, Its not about that Indian Army doesnt have ability to run foreign policy.”
First f I am a woman not a man, so would be great if you addressed me as Ma’m instead of Sir. Secondly, I am an Indian and proud of our army that has always protected us when attacked. Id did not refer to the capacity of army to run foreign policy because it is untested. I simply referred to the fact that India is a true democracy and army is part of the executive through the defence ministry. I also believe that this is how it should be. Policymaking should be in civilian hands and a lot of the problems in Pakistan are because their army is in charge of foreign policy and security policy.
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@Menon: My friend who is now a retired Lt.Col served in this area, so better look before you try to poke your nose on someone’s comments. According to the break-up of your name Me-Non, you seem to be an ignorant person, worthless to write more …….
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@gp65: Very well said !
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@the Skunk: Sure he did. But only after his forces got a battering from both the enemy on the western front, eastern front and from nature. Clearly shows which side Allah is on.
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@Pungi: “How can Pakistan trust India when India occupied Siachen illegally…!”
Don’t. India doesn’t lose anything if you don’t. You do. So think hard about whatever decision you make.
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@Cdman: And you still say you are not a fundamentalist. Just goes to show how distorted the common sense definitions have become in Pakistan today.
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India should clearly state that we are not interested in withdrawing. We would rather want to build more comfortable permanent settlements for the army. Pakistan can decide what it wants to – stay on or vacate.
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DIdn’t the Pakistan (ex)defence minister hear it from none other than Shahid Afridi himself that the Indians have a very small heart. That they just can’t be as magnanimous as the Pakistanis. What’s the point then asking for magnanimity? Maybe it would be better for Shahid Afridi to be the defence minister. At least he will have less expectations from the Indians.
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@John B:
I can bet you have never seen a copy of that agreement. It is so funny that people like to comment without knowing the abc’s of anything.
Instead of spitting hatred, creating misunderstandings and spreading lies, I suggest you put some time on google and study the agreement first. I can explain it to you but google is free!
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INDIA vacated the kargil hts for the winter months and hmmmm ahhhh see what happened ? indian better think 100 times before they do anything
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Hindustan has promised elections in IOK for almost seven decades now – has there been any move on the part of Delhi to honour that commitment?
This is the same country which reneged on almost all its agreements during Partition, leaving Pakistan not only to fend for herself without the allocated resources, but to also fight to claim Azad Kashmir. Dishonesty runs through every pillar of every institution in Hindustan – the only language it understands is force, as it has learned repeatedly in the country’s numerous separatist hotspots.
Hasan
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Since both countries gined independence Indi hs found Pkistn to be untrustworthy and duplicitous. As recently as last year Pakistan was sheltering Osama in its military town while engaging in war on terrorists with the USA. Pakistan has to prove it is trustworthy before it demnds magnanimity from others.
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Hahahaha the comments that Hindustanis make about Kargil are hilarious – especially when they also babble on about international intervention…the only way you guys managed to dislodge Pakistan from the posts in 1999 was to make decidedly humiliating overtures to Israel and the US.Militarily, you were utterly outclassed by a better fighting force (again).
No doubt this was all reported as a success in your many ‘free’, ‘liberal’ media outlets though.
Hasan
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Kashmir belongs NEITHER to India NOR to Pakistan but to KASHMIRIS..
Askai Chin was handed over to China by India in 1962 and Pakistan has also accepted compromise on the border with China in Northern Areas. If Bangladesh can be independent why not Kashmir!
For peace to prevail in South Asia, Kashmiris must be independent of both countries where neither country should have advantage over the other..
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@Hasan: “Hindustan has promised elections in IOK for almost seven decades now “
Actually India continues to hold elections in Jammu and Kashmir. Unlike people of Gilgit Baltistan, people of Jammu and Kashmir get to vote in Indian national elections, state lections of Jammu and Kashmir and finally local government elections too. In the last local gvernment elections in Jammu and Kashmir 70% people voted despite people like Geelani boycotting the elections. In Pakistan though , nowhere have local government elections been held in the last 4 years.
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@gp65: Pls dont argue about simple facts.
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Pakistan is the shining model of electoral democracy and India the laggard.
All round happiness and Joy.
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@Polpot: Thank you for your guidance sir. I stand corrected!
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@Hasan: “you were utterly outclassed by a better fighting force (again).”
Yep just like we were outclassed in 1965, 1971 and 1984.
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