The Pakistan case is straight: Let Kashmiris decide whether they want to live as Indians or as Pakistanis. This is supported by the United Nations Security Council resolutions beginning with No 38 in 1948 and going on to No 123 in 1957. The resolutions seek a direct vote, what is called a plebiscite, among people in Jammu & Kashmir on their future. The UN said it would administer this vote, and called for India and Pakistan to demilitarise the state.
The Kashmiri case is slightly less straight. Some of them want accession to Pakistan (the Jamaat-e-Islami’s Ali Shah Geelani of Sopore and Muslim Conference’s Mirwaiz Umar Farooq of Srinagar are its champions) through a plebiscite. Some of them (for instance Yasin Malik’s JKLF) want a vote that adds independence as a third option. Some of them (all Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, most Shias and some Sunnis, including the ruling National Conference and the opposition PDP) are fine with India.
Though Nehru agreed to the plebiscite plan at first, he later backed off. India’s case on the plebiscite is defensive, and rests on technicalities. One is the Security Council resolutions’ sequencing of troop withdrawal. Pakistani was asked to withdraw its troops first. Secondly, India points to the state Jammu & Kashmir Assembly’s acceptance of the accession to India in 1954. This is meant to be a substitute for the plebiscite (though the UN specifically said it could not be). A third, unofficial, reason is that much time has passed and the resolutions have somehow become irrelevant. Kofi Annan said the same thing when as secretary-general he was pressed on this matter. After the resolutions of 1957, the UN lost interest. Then the wars of 1965 and 1971 eclipsed the Kashmir issue. The world was more concerned that the subcontinent be at peace than it was about resolving the original problem.
Most Pakistanis may not be aware that the Kashmir issue went to the United Nations because Nehru took it there. Till that time, there were two parties to the dispute, India and Pakistan. The Security Council’s resolution added a third party, the people of Jammu & Kashmir. Nehru went there because he believed India was the aggrieved party. He believed that Hari Singh’s accession was legal and that the only matter for discussion was how to get Pakistan to vacate the raiders Jinnah had sent in. The other thing some Pakistanis might not know is that Maududi thought the jihad in Kashmir was un-Islamic. This was because it was launched with freelancers and not by the state officially, as Maududi thought was prescribed in Islam. In a letter to Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Usmani, Maududi said that the April 1948 ceasefire signed by Pakistan was binding on all citizens, regardless of the merits. In prescribing the plebiscite, the UN took a broader, more humanitarian view of the problem than merely as some land dispute, and India was in trouble. After that, Nehru shifted focus from trying to get the bits Pakistan had won militarily, to trying to secure the acquiescence of the local population.
In time, even this did not work out. The state’s prime minister, Sheikh Abdullah sensed the unease of some if not most Muslims in staying with India. His politics began to reflect this, and an alarmed Nehru dismissed Abdullah and jailed him. This began a sequence of Indian meddling in the state’s politics. The Kashmiri complaint was that Delhi did mischief and kept upending its leadership. This was true.
This resulted in the Kashmiri revolt that began under Benazir Bhutto’s first term. A parallel development was the forming of the jihadi groups in Pakistan. One group, the Hizbul Mujahideen, was supported by the Jamaat-e-Islami under its third Amir, Qazi Hussain Ahmad, who broke with Maududi’s wisdom. The Deobandi Harkatul Ansar (later renamed Harkatul Mujahideen after an American ban, and still later renamed Jaish-e-Muhammad) and the Salafi Lashkar-e-Taiba rose to lead the jihad. The violence continued till India sent troops to the border after Jaish attacked its parliament. Under pressure, then president Pervez Musharraf backed down, and banned the groups in 2002. The jihad in Kashmir ended almost immediately and today the violence is almost totally gone. The theatre of these groups has now become Pakistan.
Next week we shall again pick up the thread of what, if any, case India has on Kashmir.
Published in The Express Tribune, February 5th, 2012.
COMMENTS (179)
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@Kashmiri: Dear Kashmiri ji are you aware that time Pakistan was shouting from the roof top that they have sent no troops in Kashmir and they have no connection with tribal people. So how come you have invented the line that only tribal had to vacate and not the troops. As you claim to be living in India and are my neighbour why do not move to "THE AZAD KASHMIR" And live in peace. Any way your heart and pocket is already there.
@wasim: The facts about how two nation theory has undermined the interests of Muslims of this subcontinent was explained in a reply posted to you. I am sad that it was removed by the moderator. Any way I am thankful to the moderator as most of the time he shows immense tolerance to various extreme views.
How long we(India, Pakistan) would be the hostage to the past...there is nothing to gain from bashing each other.....In this globalized world one thing is sure that India cant be prosperous until Pakistan is in peace and Pakistan cant be prosperous until Afghanistan is in peace....Bcoz no country is isolated from whats going with there neighboring country...its better to realize soon...!!
@wonderer: you can not escape from reality. you think india is the remedy when it is the problem. india did not give freedom to this part of british india.
You made conditions of kashmir bitter sour. That is why jammu and kashmir have fought recently. while all regions of india enjoyed freedom kashmir becomes prison for 100 years. in blochistan people at least have freedom. army or security forces go against people of criminal activity.
kashmiris know what solution is best for them. that is not uniting with india. uniting with india does not mean living in prison untill kashmiris decide their fate.
kashmiris and indians know the outcome of freedom. only you are unware of future outcomes. You think india will give justice to muslim states that is not true india cares about hindu states. this is the reason india can never merge kashmir, there is ceasefire. there is dispute.
@Delhi belly, well said mate. bang on!
@Rakib:
Can Economic success justify social injustice, this discussion started from equality and mistreatment of minorities and smaller ethnic groups in Pakistan, but when I pointed out similar problems but only at a larger scale in India, they were defended with one argument and that was India's new found economic power and Pakistan's relatively weaker financial position. Thats a completely absurd logic to begin with, During the last 10 years India's economic liberalization opened the doors for hot investments, and India was able to negotiate much better economic terms of trade with major countries in exchange for lifting protections and opening up its markets for the foreign goods. Privitization, Globalization and FDI''s gave a boost to foreign exchange reserves but now due to unprotected markets, vast corruption, global economic melt down, and the escape of hot investments India's balance of trade deficits are growing every year on average they are $70 billion every year. which are more than the total debts acquired by Pakistan in 64 years. Its currency is losing ground, the economic liberalization has not trickled down it has gushed up, you see a lot of billionaires but then again the poor have become poorer and for India it is no small joke. With 500 million living way below the poverty line. India's public debt is in trillions and in terms of debt to GDP ratio it is around 70% one of the highest in the world with this situation India is again heading for a 1991 like debt crisis.And the maoist rebellion is going to gain steam in rural India.
@Rakib:
Even though quite a few of my posts also got deleted by the moderators but I think they are doing a great job its not easy to keep things cool on this sensitive matter.
I am sorry to say you haven't added anything to the discussion others before you already presented the same arguments.
When Obama became the first African American President of US did it ended the economic and social discrimination of African Americans or did it lessen the pain of centuries old oppression, or can we declare that the African Americans have become complete masters of their destiny? You have to live in America to feel the hidden discrimination which still goes on. Similarly I never argued that there haven't been powerful people from the downtrodden segments of Indian society or they do not get political representation. Of course they do and so do the Baloch's in Pakistan and Kashmiri's in both Kashmir's, but has strong political representation ended the economic and social exploitation, has the affirmative action been successful in ending the discrimination against certain groups. If you look at statistics they present a completely different story, India's hidden apartheid is still going on. Uneven development, the difference between the have's and have nots the attempt to remove the poor from urban areas like someone removes dirty stains from the laundry, the armed and unarmed uprisings result in missing persons and unmarked graves. The figures I have quoted I didn't made them up, neither I took them from Pakistani sites.These are the social indicators available at UNCTAD and many other reputable Indian and International sites.
Kashmir :
No India has more than a 'case' on Kashmir. It has a full book case , an entire library bigger than all the books in Pakistan put together , on Kashmir. So its better for Pakistan to forget Kashmir and focus on Baluchistan.
@harish:
First of all who gave you this figure that US gave us 20 billion in the last decade, probably you watch a lot of Fox news. If you take out the money we received in payments for the services rendered to USA in lieu of the war on terror the actual amount received is $8.64 billion and Pakistans direct losses by becoming a part of this war are estimated to be $70 billion. You do the math who is financing the world peace indirectly.
@harish:
Post Script: The article I have provided the link to in my previous post is of 1992. Significant year. That was the time when PVN Rao, MM Singh and P Chidambaram altered the destiny of India. A new chapter opened up along with opening up of India. But, as history was being created and era of dole was going to be left behind all three must have been conscious that negation of even recent past would be the kind of denial that would invite disaster. They would have never rejected the truth about Aid. Theirs was the simple wisdom that is now singularly lacking among the many warriors on the internet.
@K B Kale: I sincerely appreciate your kind response. Thank you.
@Wasim : Interesting facts you have claimed here, lets say you are right and Pakistan is the best place for muslims and muslims under India are suffering. What is stopping them to move to Pakistan or any other muslim countries ? Where is your bhai chara to help fellow muslims ? True there are quite many muslims below poverty in India but so are people from other caste. Most of the individual in India are self made. there is no social security system for anyone where government helps one and does not help the other. So whom are you blaming here for the situation of the muslims ? Before you make any accusation you should come here and see the ground reality. I like in Jamma Masjid area and the place I work I have quite many muslim colleagues and friends in a way better economical condition than your media portrays. For my muslim brothers who are below poverty line I feel sorry for them. But why should I give him or any person of any caste any free money when they dont want to work hard or educate hard to make something of themselves. I went to a village in UP for social work in 1997 where we running a camp drive for polio medicine. This village was pre-dominated by muslims. Their religious leader there prevented any muslim from taking the polio medicine calling it haram. They dont take loan from government to start their business since taking loan is haram. They dont send their gals to school to get educate and send their sons to local madrassah where they get no qualification to join the normal workforce. You tell us Wasim how do we help them and we will. The plight of muslims in India or for that matter in any part of world is due to their own practices and blind belief in their religion rather than rationalizing teachings of Allah. You are asking for rights for muslims in India but you keep forgetting in India everybody has equal right or equally "no right". Any report on poverty and sub classification of group is co-incidental and not deliberate attempt to keep any certain segment of society poor. You guys very eagerly forget the success of quite many muslims in India. and if India was seriously bad for muslims we wouldnt have people like Azim premji, Dr. Abdul Kalam or numerous bollywood actors out there.
@harish:
Would $55 Billion appear to be "paltry" to you? And that too in the era when purchasing power of dollar was rather high? Why don't you find out the details of all the doles/aid India has received over the decades from various countries?
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-170.html
Quote:India has received more foreign aid than any other developing nation since the end of World War II--estimated at almost $55 billion since the beginning of its First Five-Year Plan in 1951.:Unquote
Foreign Aid and India:Financing the Leviathan State by Shyam J. Kamath.
Surely Shyam Kamath is of Indian origin!
Harishsahab, Rakibsahab might be an Indian (and not a Pakistani) Muslim!
Rakibsahab, Thanks for correcting me. I was talking about India since the Green Revolution of 70's. Before that we did depend on PL-480 wheat from USA though I don't know for sure whether we paid for it or not. But as a person born in 1942, I have lived through those scarcity days and bad wheat. However, I am ever grateful to USA for their help and in one of my letters published in Jakarta Post, I have touched upon this point. From 1971, India became self-sufficient in food till date. But till last 20 years, we always had shortage of foreign exchange. So for everything we had to apply for "import license". As a steelmaker, our factory, like any other factory in India, had an omnipresent "Import Substitution Cell" because we couldn't buy even spare parts we needed. But India persevered, worked hard & survived. I am very proud to have lived through those trying years of my youth. Probably those hardships made India strong & resilient to face any difficulties. Fortunately, our children don't even know this as they never faced shortages that could affect one's survival. But in all this chaos, India remained a democracy. Our Armed Forces never even tried to usurp power. China also went through bad times before it became today's economic powerhouse. But then it was never a democracy. That is why I say that Pakistan should try to emulate India's example. Nothing wrong in following good examples. India is not an enemy of Pakistan but Pakistan's best & genuine friend. I, personally, never feel any enmity about Pakistanis I know. You guys look & behave just like us. Even your ex-PM Nawaz Sharif said that Pakistan should stop considering India as its enemy. I think this will do for now. Thanks again for correcting me in some details. Regards, K B Kale
@Rakib: look who is talking. After taking aid of 20bn$ from US alone in last decade, and much more since inception, you are being ungrateful to america, and you are reminding us of the small paltry food aid given by america in the 60's.I feel Mr KB Kale is wasting his time talking to stones.
@K B Kale:
Depending on aid or dole is like selling your soul & India has never done it
It is incorrect to say India has never depended on aid & dole.By making a wrong statement not only others are embarrassed but Indians here are deprived of the greatest satisfaction that there can be: of recalling yesterday's misery while living in today's comfort.
Looking back honestly is necessary to know how far one has come & how well too! Quite a few examples exist but one will do:- Partition-'47 took away India's wheat bowl(west Punjab) to Pakistan. India headed for trouble soon thereafter. By mid-'50s there was severe food crisis in many parts of the world including India. There was famine in China and Russia could barely manage. Europe was still recovering from WW2. Only country that could come to India's help was USA. And what India got was "dole"-free wheat of 50 million tonnes between 1956-71. Govt did not pay for it but did not distribute free! India did "depend" on "dole" to sustain its Public Distribution System(PDS). Mind tends to shut off memories that may appear shameful to some. Many that were born after the Green Revolution may not want to recall the era of PL 480 which was the mainstay for PDS. But,not to acknowledge this at all and to forget American help would be ingratitude.
Thank God for the smiles but let it never be forgotten that we cried once.
@Ayesha & Kale
Again a loan is a loan whether Indian or Pakistani. Dole is something which you don't have to return or pay interest on it. Half a billion people living below poverty line with a hundred thousand Kissans committing suicide in India last year speaks volumes about the real strength of India, yes we can boost about a few mega deals, a handful of billionaires and ignore the real India but that for me is nothing but Economic vulgarity.
@Vinod
One should not boost about a unity which has been maintained by creating thousands of unmarked graves and a non stop oppression.
@wasim: Dear Wasim, The creation of Pakistan,based on two nation theory, instead of providing any strength to Muslims of this subcontinent has weakened them in every possible way. Population of Muslims in India is 162 million, Pakistan 186 million and Bangladesh 156 million. Though, in the subcontinent, the Hindu population has remained consolidated the creation of Pakistan has divided this vast population of 505 million into three. With this major population of 505 million Muslims together today they would have exercised major influences in the polity and social life of this subcontinent. Today, if together, the rule in United Punjab, United Bengal, Sindh, NWFP, UP, Hyderabad, Mysore would have been of Muslim majority. The plight and destiny of all of us would have been tied together for good.The history of Islam in India is still the history of India please. Two nation theory has only benefited a handful of Muslims of West Punjab and has harmed the over all interest of Muslims.
@ayesha khan: Ayesha madam, thanks. You understood the issue correctly! Depending on aid or dole is like selling your soul & India has never done it and Pakistan also should stop it asap. Pakistan should emulate India’s example, not compete with it. India has done many things worth emulating including an (almost) uninterrupted democratic rule. If India can do it, so can Pakistan! After all, we are from the same stock!
Everyone is becoming bias in picking on issues, which have faded into the history. Kashmir can never be an independent state, if this happens, it would be independent nominally. The reason is behind the backing of Pakistan and India, who have supported the man in power for so many years. it is impossible to let it go, anyway. Waiting fort he next week post.
Wasimbhai, please read the book "Nuclear Deception"!
@Rakib: As long as a nation doesn't depend on it, accepting a notional aid is fine. Even during Katrina crisis, India gave aid to USA and they accepted it. The problem with Pakistan is that it can't survive without dole. I say this many times & I say it again. India is the ONLY genuine friend of Pakistan & Pakistan should emulate India's example, not compete with it. India has done many things worth emulating including an (almost) uninterrupted democratic rule. If India can do it, so can Pakistan! After all, we are from the same stock!
Aakarbhai, Is 150+ responses a record? Congratulations!
@wasim: "Thats another myth I would advise you to do some research, India’s foreign debt is $326billion vs Pakistan’s $60 billion. Of course India has a much bigger and stronger economy than Pakistan’s but it’s not true that India doesn’t have foreign debts. " Ofcourse India has foreign debt. What Mr. Kale was referring to is foreign debt. India is not dependent on foreign aid unlike Pakistan which has survived on this crutch since inception.
Kale Bhaiya
There is no such thing as Dole. Your foreign exchange reserves are way less than your foreign debt and with half a billion people living below 50 cents a day, you can hardly dole out anything.
America owes the world trillions of dollars, the Europeans also owe trillions of dollars Pakistan's debt is peanuts as compared to those countries or India.
Let me define "Aid" for you, because you certainly have a huge misconception about it. One sided trade on soft payment terms is called "Aid", western countries call it aid to get political mileage and leverage over smaller countries. Pakistan's economy in terms of buying power is 27th in the world we produce more food than whole Africa. We never needed Aid. In last 10 years our foreign loans have doubled only because we are indirectly paying for the war on terror, and world peace, where as some powers in the region in collusion with the super power are just trying to establish their hegemony in the region and destroying the peace. We have so far suffered a loss of $70 billion because of this war on terror. But very soon things are going to take a U-turn. The moment America will pull out of Afghanistan its interest in India will also dwindle and India will inherit a civil war in Afghanistan just like we did and suffered. India- America relationship which started with IT exports have taken a Uturn and now India has become a market for American goods, where as the outsourcing market is drying up fast.
@wasimbhai, When would you understand the difference between 'loans' & 'dole'? India's debt is more because it 'borrows' money & pays it back. I always recommend that Pakistan refuse dole or 'aid' but borrow & repay. Pakistan never earned what it spends. That's how it has got spoiled to a degree that if US pulls the strings on dole, it runs to China or Saudi or some other shaikhs without any sense of embarrassment. Change your ways, Wasimbhai. Stop accepting dole!
.
@K B Kale: Not only India even China accepts "aid" though quantum is small. US gave away $125 million during last decade to China for environmental initiatives. In 2008 alone Japan had given soft loan of whopping $40 Billions to China and only when China overtook Japan the latter decided to phase out the programme. UK MPs were upset with India recently on the Aid issue since IAF chose to buy French fighter jets instead of British. Of course, it depends on what Aid is accepted and what is not depending on the nature of attached strings. China & India know that Aid benefits the industry within the donor country as much as the receiver. Not to say that the recipient is ingrate but somehow India has the knack of making the Donor feel more grateful.
@wasim: Debt is result of an honourable commercial practice provided interest and instalments of principal are promptly paid up. India's record is good. In the long gone past India would rather hock its gold to Bank of England to raise money but not default or approach the lender to forgive the delay. No Shark ever forgives. The country that defaults ends up paying much more than interest: it pays by surrendering a part of its sovereignty every time it seeks a moratorium or an undue favour such as deferred payment on supply of essential commodity like petrol. Has Pakistan got into that trap any time with any country? (just a rhetorical question, no answer is sought)
Interesting to see that soo many Indians follow news in Pakistan.
@Dr Priyanka:
Please spare me the arrogance, I would have been more impressed if you had not spent that 10 billion on nuclear purchases and spent that money on the half a billion people who are living in stone age.
Nawaz Sharif is Kashmiri. And Kashmir is a disputed territory not an integral part of Pakistan or India, Kashmir's fate will be decided by the people of Kashmir.
@wasim: Don't forget we gave Mr Obama 10 billion dollars worth of jobs and etc etc, we are in a position to take care of debts if there are any! I would advise all those readers and commentators here to remember that Kashmiri Hindus have been thrown out of Kashmir long time ago and it's high time they get back to their state. And the whole world is aware of their plight and the kind of ethnic cleansing that happened in that state. This was told me by a kashmiri pandit and that is too sad. And Kashmir is an integral part of India. The people of India are very passionate about this aspect and Nehru, Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi in the past, Priyanka and Rahul Gandhi now are people who have kashmiri blood in them. Was any of your PMs by any chance from Kashmir?
@K B Kale: ` Thats another myth I would advise you to do some research, India's foreign debt is $326billion vs Pakistan's $60 billion. Of course India has a much bigger and stronger economy than Pakistan's but it's not true that India doesn't have foreign debts.
I look forward to Mr Patel's next installment on this subject.
Wasimbhai, Are you aware that India does not take aid? That is a major achievement. Even when tsunami hit Andaman coast, Tamilnadu coast, Andhra Coast and some other areas, the World offered us help but we politely declined. Are you aware of this? When floods hit Pakistan, India offered 25 millions USD help, but Pakistan was not even graceful in accepting it from an "enemy"? Do you know how much China offered? India is Pakistan's only genuine friends. But we have to do a lot of work when Pakistan realises it.
@Amlendu:
In fact I am using Indian sites for the figures and facts I am quoting here, so instead of following Pakistan sites I would advise you to search in your own independent newspapers and blogs to validate the statistics I HAVE QUOTED.
@Rakib:
I never said that the facts i was quoting were related to the whole Indian population I agree that they reflect the plight of the downtrodden "Section" of Indians which is made up of half a billion people. And I never condemned the effort of introspection as it busted the myth created by the few poster boys of secularism and success.But this is also a fact that the suggestions made by the report have not been implemented and the report only resulted in getting political mileage for some people.
@wasim:
I have been following comments on Pakistani websites for almost three years now and it amazes me that the per day income of majority of Indian keeps falling in these comment. Three years back I used to see people commenting that 60 to 80% Indians earn less than 2$ a day and now it has become 50 cents. If we go by these comments, two things become evident. 1. It seems Indian economy has shrinking by almost 2 to 3% in last three years. 2. If the trend continues, there will be a miracle in next few years and more than 50% Indians will be serviving on less than 1 cent a day.
@wasim:
Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee Report, though controversial, is about a section of Indians. Only a section, yes, but of Indians and it is Indians who will find the solution. Hopefully there will be other committees set up in future to inquire into affairs of other sections too. The Terms of Reference of Sachar Committee were limited to social, economic and educational condition specific to the Muslim community of India. That does not mean that the one who commissioned the report (Govt of MM Singh) is oblivious to plight of others or that "others" do not have issues. Had the terms of ref included an inquiry into the status of Hindus/Christians/Buddhists/Sikhs/Tribals etc it might have revealed as tragic a tale (if not more troubling one) as in case of Muslims.
It would be a sad if today, based on India's this effort at introspection & course correction, a comparison is made between a blind man & a lame one to gloat about who is better off, or, worse off, to determine who wants to score which point at whose cost in which worthless debate.
@VINOD:
Two nation theory gets validated with every atrocity done to Indian muslims, the presence of Indian Army in Kashmir, the Babri Mosque, and the Gujrat massacre and all the other communal riots. It gets validated by the Sachar report which elaborates how the muslims of India are living below the poverty line and have been systematically marginalized.
@Wasim, The mere fact that India appointed justice sachhar and Dr. Mishra to form committees to look into state of affairs of weaker sections and make public its report is a tribute to our culture and governance, regardless of who is in power.
We will be the last one to say all is well in India, but after 64 years of independence, we are moving forward (except of few major drastic events). Atleast people are not blowing themselves in street every week.
When you think about the ills of India you need to also take into account the the size of India, complexity, the diversity and how young this nation is.
So overall, yes we are still doing fine. May be have a one sacchar committee for Pakistani minorities then you will be better placed morally to tell India what to do.
@wasim: Dera Wasim two nation theory failed the day when more Muslims then the total population of Pakistan decided to stay back in India. Even today there are more Muslims in India then Pakistan. Pakistan was demanded on the basis of two nation theory to protect the interests of the Muslims of this subcontinent but it turned out to be a state created for the benefit of Muslims of West Punjab. Even today others are discriminated persecuted and neglected. The very fact that the creation of Pakistan has in no way protected the interest of all the Muslims of Sub Continent proves that the two nation theory has failed. Leave aside Indian Muslims you could not safeguard the Muslims of Bangladesh.
@Mohammad Asif: We are waiting dear. Try all you can (I still feel you heed to the advice of your PM Gilani). This time rest assured no matter where your PM goes to or to whoever he pleads to,, unlike Kargil, the blow will be decisive
@ Amit
Half a billion people in India live below 50 cents a day , 90 % off them belong to lower castes or are muslims, India is progressing but the system is such that the development is uneven and the fruits of development are not reaching to certain groups. Go read Justice Sachar's report.
@antony: You can write volumes about the tolerance and peace and harmony flowing in India Via Hindus and Hinduism but at the end of the day the world would want to measure it in terms of ground realities. Communal riots, caste based attrocities, oppressed minorities these are the ground realities.
@sylmarkhan: Please watch this video & decide for yourself whether Indian Muslims are comfortable in India or not! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfje0
Sylmarkhan : Your comments are full of lies and devoid of facts, A Sample. I just wonder what backfired on what. The official sponcership of jihadis backfiring on Pakistan or the current peaceful situation in Kashmir after Mush reigned in jihadis. You can consider India as a friend or enemy , It is your choice. We dont care much till u guys get religion out of statecraft
@sylmarkhan: I always wonder why Pakistan doesn't hold a plebicite (under proper International supervision to avoid rigging) in the part of Kashmir it has forcibly occpied including including gilgit & Baltistan & the areas it gifted to China for its "Forever Friendship" to put moral pressure on India?
@Wasim, your prejudice and bias is clearly evident from your comments. No one is saying success of few individual muslims, dalits or minorities. Success of Lakhs and Crores of people who belong to these sections are clearly visible in India.
As i said you wont notice and we understand why. you can quote figures but when positives outweigh negatives we would like to think we are doing ok.
your mindset is the classic difference between my muslim friends in Pakistan vis a vis my muslim brothers in India.
@AK Murthy: kashmiris left hinduism long ago. kashmiris left india on independence.
gulab singh can't do a thing for indians. hari singh just destroyed princly state.
india putting the final touches it is the same relations such as kosovo and serbia.
just like serbia said kosovo is mine. same way india is grabbing kashmir.
nothing becomes with military occupation. nor kashmiris will support india ever for solution.
kashmiris supportes.
india did not give rightful solution. kashmiris went to pakistan for jihad against india. who is islamist. it is hindu arrogant that drove this jihad.
india got her hands full with recipe of terror. the more your terrorize , it spit back on india.hahahahahahahahahahahaha.
just like hari singh had great idea of independent state but back fired. same way india's plan fired back. pakistan became enemy because india could not find solution to cancer that plaqued dispute.
Thank You Tribune for printing my comments.
The present day Kashmiri supporters are nothing but Pakistani islamists. The true kashmiris such as the dogras, the pundits and others have been wiped out or driven from their homes. If Kashmuir became its own country then It will become another radicalized country like Pakistan.
@Wasim, Facts speak louder than any scriptures. More muslims live in Delhi than Hindus in all of Pakistan. Only about 15% of Indian Muslims migrated to Pakistan during the 1947 riots while 85% of Hindus , Sikhs left Pakistan and the remaining there after. Gandhi and Nehru , went around the country with the message that India was for all communities even if Pakistan was a Islamic state only for Muslims. Today the state of Pakistan has barbaric laws against mninority Ahmadias and Hindus, Christians , forbidding them from occupoying the highest offices. As I said, there is no need to quote Hindu or Muslims scriptures . You better quote Indian and Pakistani constitution. The difference between India and Pakistan is for all to see and the difference is Himalayan as the difference between 15% and 85% is.
@wasim: Also attributing creation of Bangladesh on administrative reasons is like comparing calculus with simple addition and subtraction. Hilarious comment of yours.
@wasim: Point taken. Caste system does exist and it's being dealt with it strongly by affirmative action. The caste system initially was not rigid but it became rigid subsequently. However it is not the only thing that you should look at. All religions need to be reformed and hinduism (as for that matter Islam as well) is no exception. Caste system is just one aspect and that does not in anyway reduce the attraction of hinduism which is tolerant, inclusive and reformist and finally vast majority of the followers are secular and broad minded. Unfortunately I can't say the same for a lot of Pakistanis.
@wasim, To understand the tolerance of Hindus and their acceptance of people following other religion with their own traditions/rituals you have to be part of India and feel for yourself .As years pass by you will realize firmly that as a whole ,Hindus are a genuinely tolerating people of other religion because their basic religious tenent is that there are many ways to reach GOD thereby appreciating islamic beliefs,christian beliefs,buddist beliefs etc.As a christian who lives in India I can say this from personal experience. Please dont quote exceptions .
@ Mr. wasim: Looks like you & Mr Vasan have solved an Indo-Pak problem! Great.....!
@vasan:
There is a huge difference between your first post and last post read them again. The last one has a reconciliatory tone where as the first one was offensive. Principally you accepted that Hindus are discriminating lowers caste people and for me it is fair to accept that all religions promote peace and humanity its their followers who sway from the path. Bottom line is that if we will point fingers at others they will point it back on us, nobody is perfect we have to learn from our mistakes and learn to respect each other this is the only way peace can be achieved not by finger pointing and hurling insults at each other.
@vasan: Looks like you converted Wasimbhai to your way of thinking? Actually, Indians & Pakistanis are like long-lost brothers. God knows when they will stop fighting.....!
wasim : I dont understand your messages. You have started blaming and accusing Hinduism which I clarified in my first message to you. At the end you have ended up accepting my point of view.
@vasan:
You don't have to convince me about Hinduism. I agree with you that one should not blame a philosophy or religion for the wrong doings of its followers.And I also agree with you that the discrimination is being done by the Hindus.That was the whole point nobody has a higher moral ground to judge the other about equality and human rights.Both nations are growing together and are facing similar challenges and will take their own time to mature.
@ Amit
Its not only Rigveda which propagates the caste system there are many other scriptures which propagate the same thing, and like you said there are some which negate the caste system, but one thing which has been common during the last 4000 years is the rigid practice of Caste based discrimination by the higher classes.Apparently the more just scriptures are not having their effect on society or are not being followed.
Of course I am aware of the successful muslims and lower caste individuals in India but do you honestly believe that the success of a few individuals should give a clean chit to an otherwise oppressive system and we should ignore the millions who are suffering.
Thats is the main crux of the discussion. Please don't get defensive and edgy about this discussion, one should be able to answer all the questions about something in which one strongly believes.
Wasim : This is not a forum to convince you or anybody about Hinduism because one cannot answer selective quotes from wikipidia or other sources. One needs to study the scriptures and Bhagavat geeta after which such questions do not arise because you would have found your answers.. Suffice it to say that Hinduism does not discriminate humans by birth, It is the Hindus who have done it. Like you guys always say that Islam is a peaceful religion. One does not blame a philosophy or religion for the wrong doings of its followers. That is exactly my message in my earlier posting and in this posting. As long as one justifies the current downturn anywhere with a religious answer, there is no solution but to sink further.
@Wasim, this is my second attempt in answering your post and i will keep it brief. Hope tribune publishes this time.
You quoted Rigveda, Mate people who live in glass houses should not throw stones on other. We are not here to gain brownie points on religions, there are so many other examples in Hindu Scriptures which actually show how higher and lower caste are but one and i don't want to waste time here quoting that.
Other point was about the prosecution of dalits, muslims and other minorities in India. I am not going into details as we have thousands of successful muslims,dalits and minorities. I am sure you have not noticed that.
I understand it is convenient to pick only negatives about a religion or country you don't like, but we can only hope that may be in future mindset changes.
@Ak:
I am all ears, so far I have heard no valid argument in return all I am hearing is that I know nothing about your faith. Please enlighten the world we would like to hear the logic behind 4000 years of barbaric abuse of the the lower castes in India.
You are right there are many social issues which women in Pakistan face on daily basis, I won't deny them. We have honor killings, we have discriminatory Hadood laws, women often face domestic violence.Like any other country in the region we are struggling with these issues. But quote me a country of the size of Pakistan or bigger which doesn't have these problems. India has honor killings, 5000 women are killed in India every year due to violence related to dowry. Then there is gender specific abortion there are 7.1 million less girls in India than boys at age 6, can you explain why? Take the statistics on rape in India. These are the social problems which both countries are facing. Neither one has a higher moral ground to look down on the other.
@zehra: Wow, Ms Zehra, you made my day! You are a rare lady for sure. In Marathi, my mother tongue, there is a saying that goes like this: "The hand (of a mother) that rocks a cradle is capable of uplifting the whole world". I wholeheartedly believe in this saying. If the number of enlightened ladies like you goes up in Pakistan, the country will fly really high amongst the comity of nations! Viva Ms. Zehra and all other enlightened Muslim ladies!
@zehra: Wow, Ms Zehra! You are an exception for sure. In my mother tongue Marathi, there is a saying that says, "The hand (of a mother) that rocks a cradle is capable of uplifting the whole world". If the number of ladies like you goes up in Pakistan, the country will fly really high amongst the comity of nations! Viva Ms. Zehra and all other Muslim ladies!
@wasim: Instead of focusing on a religion you hardly know of, why don't you focus on your own religion where women have been reduced to second class and vast numbers wallowing in prejudices (which I am afraid you are equally part of). If you want to debate on Hinduism and caste system I am game for it.
Instead of going through wikipedia and showing of your knowledge about hinduism, it would be better to learn about the religion by reading the scriptures.
yup am real, my point is simple, stop fighiting other peoples war, concenterate on your own slef, we have learnt nothing from history. muslims left their jobs, education for the caliphate in turkey, started the khilafat movement migrated to afghanistan where" muslim brothers" refused entry, khilafat was broken by a muslim brother ataturk!! and the muslims lost thier jons, education all for nothing? it is that movement which i blame for the basic illetracy that is in most of us!! ready to jump into fire for the so called breterns, bhai first cure your self then go around doctoring others!!
let the Un deciude whenever it wants too, let the people decide whenever they want to whatever they want of that state,with so much trouble going on here, do we really need a problem state just becoz it has muslims living in it? i dnt thnk so
@ amlendu
Kashmir has been a disputed territory since 1947 there is no relevance between Kashmir and Balochistan.
@El Shaheed: You can also go to Pak if you want to. Nobody is topping you.
@Ali Tanoli: You cannot because you have been brought up on the feeding of falsehood by the Pak state and its minions-fundoos and terrorists who are interested in keeping themselves relevant.
@Mariam: Does Pak have any understanding of democracy. If yes, as you purport to, please explain why power was not transferred to Sheikh Mujib when he won the majority. Give this democracy to the Baloch, Muhajirs etc. also.
@Mir Agha: Say something about the brutalised Baloch also.
@Ali: You arms do not open for Bihari Muslims, who are rotting in Bangla Desh for decades.
@Mohammad Asif: "This is promise to the chauvinistic hindus who feel that they have a right to keep the muslims of the valley hostage – as soon as this ‘war on terror’ is over, you are going to find out how passionately we feel about the people of the valley that are oppressed by your army." War on terror is about 10years old. Didn't you feel as passionate about the people ("Muslims") of the valley for 50 years prior to that?
"we will decide this issue at any cost and I mean any cost and I speak for most of people of pakistan. we are neither afraid of you or impressed by your slogans of secularism or democracy. we know what is intrinsic to you and that is the basis on which we will deal with you. " Promises! Promises! Promises! Empty ones, all. Do make an exception sometime, my friend. Deliver on at least one of the numerous ones you have made.
I wouldn't say most Shias are entirely ok with India, keeping in mind that on Ashura day in Kashmir there are always clashes between Shia processions and Indian police.
@wasim Some discrimination allways every where exist even in america after so strict laws some sys tamatic discrimination still exist.
Whoever may write whatever, but if it is on Kashmir, responses will pour from both sides of the border and in no time the responses will cross hundred! What an obsession!
I am still trying to find out the reason of almost total disappearence of Hindu Sikh population in Pakistan while the Muslim population in India stayed intact.
Just Delhi, in North India, has more Muslims than number of Hindus in all of Pakistan ! In 1947 only 15% of Indian muslims migrated while 85% of Hindus/Sikhs left West Pakistan and subsequently even the remaining left. Many millions muslims live in Delhi today. How many Hindus have survived in Islamabad or Lahore , which had a Hindu/Sikh majority in 1947 ?
Face the facts and the truth about India and Pakistan is self evident and the difference of himalayan proportion.
@narayana murthy and Zehra:
A murder is a murder whether it takes place in India or Pakistan, go check the statistics of Honor killings in the northern Indian states.
@vasan: If you want me to give you a lesson in your own religion then so be it. According to Rigveda Purusha Sukta (RV 10.90.11–12), the four varnas Brahman, Rajanya (= Kshatriya), Vaishya and Shudra classes emerged from the mouth, arms, thighs and feet of the primordial giant, Purusha.The four classes are mandatory injunction from the Creator to the effect that Society must be constituted on the basis of four classes mentioned in the Sukta. Hindu apologetics often regard it as misinterpretation of ancient Hindu texts, but continue to practice rigidly the harsh caste system for the past 4000 years. The higher castes are not willing to give up the privileges, the lower castes "the Shudras" according to the ancient texts were created out of the feet of the Purshua and hence were meant to serve the top three castes.
For the past 4000 years these people are suffering discrimination by birth and even as of today 300 million Dalits who are the original sons of the land everyday suffer the same humiliation and oppression which they have been suffering since the last 4000 years. And then you thump your chest and proclaim that your country is secular and tolerant. I haven't even touched the topic of Communal differences yet. Please take some lessons about your own history and culture before you start judging the rest of the world and don't presume that the your neighbors don't know anything about you.
As regards the separatist movements we all know how your "brave" army oppressed them, social injustice and the frustration emanating from it can never be swept under the carpet or oppressed permanently, it might lose its expression for a while due to severity of the oppression but it never dies. until the core issues are resolved. It keep on resurfacing until the core issues are resolved.
@Zehra who writes "i really dnt thnik we have a right to question human rights violation anywhere with the amount of honor killing, voilence on non muslins etnicity gonig on in poakistan!!"
Slight correction for u to think more "i really dnt thnik we have a right to question human rights violation anywhere with the amount of honor killing, voilence on MUSLIM MAJORITY gonig on in poakistan!!"
At partition , only 15% of Indian Mulims migrated to Pakistan while 85% of Hindus and Sikhs migrated from West Pakistan in a atmosphere of riots and genocide. Can anyone explain the himalayan difference between 15% and 85% ?
Frankly speaking, the Indian part of Kashmir would be far better of residing where it currently is. Pakistan has enough on it's hand at the moment to be worried about pointing fingers at it's neighbor. We should consider setting our own house in order before blabbing about human rights abuses and what not happening in IoK. If there's one thing that I've learned from Pakistan Studies it's that we are the epitome of hypocrisy and double standards.
@vasan: Apt reply to Wasim, Pakistanis( no offense to rational Pakistani thinkers) tend to base their arguments on some stereotypes about India and it is bewildering to see their level of ignorance about their neighbor.
@sushant:
The creation of Bangladesh happened only due to administrative problems had nothing to do with two nation theory. Balochistan problem is not the problem of Balochs but the problem of a handful feudals who are misleading their people and do not want the economic benefits to reach the commoners, again it has nothing to do with two nation theory. The term Muhajir is only a political term used by the urdu speaking community in sind to maintain their political identity, its heavily criticized all over in Pakistan as a result MQM which used to be Muhajir Qaumi movement changed its name to Mutthida Qaumi movement. The 5% Muhajir community is ruling Pakistan since last 14 years and nobody has an issue with it, they control 40% of the economy, they are not being victimized here. The percentage of minorities fell in pakistan not due to mass migration but due to separation of east Pakistan.The problem is of perception and Indian perceptions are built out of ignorance, bitterness and hatred.
@zehra: Are you real or an Indian using a pseudonym? If you are really a Pakistani lady as the name suggests, Pakistan can be said to be on the mend. Good luck my Pakistani Bros & Sisters we Indians are your only genuine friends!
Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India and no power on Earth or Heaven can change that reality. So stop wasting time guyz.
i dnt care for kashmir, i find it ridiclious that we weep for the attrocites commiteed in occupied kashmir but do far worse here in our own country to non muslims, or in balochistan? why cant we foucs on our growth our benift instead of worrying whter india will gain kashmir, let them fight thier own war of independence, gaining kashmir will not solve our problems!! phele jitna hai usko tou better karein nake aur parts bhi lelein!! i really dnt thnik we have a right to question human rights violation anywhere with the amount of honor killing, voilence on non muslins etnicity gonig on in poakistan!!
i would rather want a prosperous happy balochistan rather than getting kashmir!! lets make pakistan a better place rather than worryinmg about what will be the future of an contested state!
false game of Pakistan to garner public sympathy for votes has vanished LeT,LeM has been completely wiped out of Kashmir .the new leader Imraan khan is having same ca.rd to win over electorate.....Pakistan will have to leave obsession with Kashmir
@ Vasan, well answered to Wasim. His statements is a classic example of ignorance the pakistanis live in.
@Shah: @Kashmiri: Hallo Kashmiri I am also living in Anantnag how come we never met. You say "It is one of the least known genocides in the modern history. It was carried out with such a precision that it is difficult to find its traces," I would like to meet you and learn more about this secret conspiracy carried out to throw 1.5 million Muslims from Jammu. 1.5 millions were thrown out from Jammu in Pakistan without any sound in India or in Pakistan. This mode of conspiracy is worth knowing. So when and where do we meet Sir.
@Kashmiri: Hallo Kashmiri I am also living in Anantnag how come we never met. You say "It is one of the least known genocides in the modern history. It was carried out with such a precision that it is difficult to find its traces," I would like to meet you and learn more about this secret conspiracy carried out to throw 1.5 million Muslims from Jammu. 1.5 millions were thrown out from Jammu in Pakistan without any sound in India or in Pakistan. This mode of conspiracy is worth knowing. So when and where do we meet Sir.
wasim : I thought the way Islam is practiced in Pakistan, you guys did not know anything about Islam. The same is true for your knowledge of Hinduism as well. The lesser you say about Hinduism, the lesser you will show your ignorance. Hinduism does not preach or advice caste system. It is the Hindus who have done it for various reasons/misinterpretations. And it is the same Hindus who are in the process of dismantling it. I have been reading about all the multivarious 15 insurgencies in India in pakistani blogs. I think people like u are in deep slumber. Khalistan movement is dead and buried except in Pakistani minds. NE Indian/Assam insurgents, ie ULFA have surrendered their arms and negotiations are going on to address their grievances. Naxalites, yes, we will have to handle them, But they are not asking for sharia implementation/Khilafat/ISlamic emirates/Muslim Ummah or any such fancy things. And they are not suicide bombers as well
@ WAsim: Two nation theory is also validated when Bangladesh was created and when balochistan is asking for independence.What explanation you will give to those Muslims who came to Pakistan and after 64 yrs still you call then "MUHAJIR".There is more than 1 lakh Bihari who went to Bangladesh at the time of partition to think that later they will goto Pakistan and still you are not accepting them.In 1951 Pakistan has minority of 22% and now it contribute to only 1 or 2%.Opposite to it India has Muslim minority 8% in 1951 and now its around 20%.We are not bitter the problem is Pakistan do not have any National identity rather than hating INDIA.That is the only thing which they think is necessary for there survival as NATION.
reading the comments by rightous, sarcastic and condescending hindus, some of us might be mistakenly led to belieive that these delusional nincompoops have been the leading lights of mankind. what do have to offer kashmiris ? your language? your democracy? your wealth ? hindu rate of growth ? just because you learnt the use of English language does not mean you are English - you are still at the receiving end of all things worthwhile. just because you are not starving anymore does not mean anyone is looking for your handouts - have some sense of proportion. rest assured we will make sure that kashmiris are not at the receiving end of your spite and venm
@narayana murthy:
Lets talk about equality, In this day and age hinduism is the only religion which declares fellow humans "untouchables" and practices the worst form of discrimination against them "which is by birth" and this racial abuse is going on since last 3500 years. Your peaceful country just a few years ago had about 15 separatist movements some of which have been brutally crushed by your valiant armed forces, you still have the Naxalite insurgency which has spread over 40% of Indian land mass, You have Kashmir movement, Khalistan movement, Nagaland, Assam,and Bodoland movement. Then you have communal problems with Christians, Sikhs and muslims. I don't think that you should be wasting your time thinking about our problems.
Patel and Nehru GAVE PAKISTAN ONLY A FEW WEEKS, we are still here after 64 years, the disciples of Nehru and Patel still bitter of partition keep on giving us doom and gloom scenarios about our country but every problem which exists in pakistan exists in India, only it is 5 times bigger.
@Rajendra Kalkhande:
Hindus aren't any different from Arabs, Persians and Afghans for Indian aborigines, as they were also invaders, they declared the indigenous population untouchables and since last 3500 years the indigenous population of the india is facing the horrors of Indian caste system. People from across the border are still bitter about the partition, but for us when we read the comments of our Indian friends and the hatred they express it only validates the two nation theory.
You people will never learn from your mistakes...Half of your country you have lost because of KAshmir another you'll loose if ur continue with the same.....May God give you some Brain...
@harkol: Thank you so much, Mr Harkol. Regards, KBK
Mr. Kale,
Akar Patel is an Indian. He writes for Indian papers as well. This article itself has been published simultaneously in FirstPost in India.
He has some tangential views on many issues, and I like reading him even when I don't agree with him. On this issue too he is somewhat correct on his surmises as it sticks to straight and narrow. Curious to read his follow-up on this, for India's case in Kashmir is not purely legal. It is largely the security of the Original Hindu & Buddhist inhabitants of this area, who have been persecuted for 5 centuries.
@Mohammad Asif: " as soon as this ‘war on terror’ is over, you are going to find out how passionately we feel about the people of the valley that are oppressed by your army. we will decide this issue at any cost and I mean any cost"
Yes we know how you feel. You have tried many things before the war on terror ever began. You attacked us in 1965, you pushed paid mercenaries into India throughout late 1980s and 1990s. You did Kargill. In each situation, India successfully defended itself. You can try it again. The result will not be different.
@Thoughtful American: Very thoughtful expression for an American, a country which has spoiled Pakistan with its dole of unaccounted greenbacks!!
Is Mr Aakar Patel an Indian (Muslim or Hindu) writing for a Pakistani newspaper like Mr Kuldip Nayar and Mr M J Akbar? Just curious to know!
Mohammed Asif: From your message, I conclude the following: You, meaning Pakistanis in general, seem to know the Indians mind very well, You guys must be the best mind readers and socialogists You are not afraid to take Indians on. Highly martial backed up by a courageous army with loads of weapons (It does not matter that you lost 4 wars before) You will decide the issue at any cost, implying you are rich, can afford to lose lots of wealth and population on your side but want Kashmir You are passionate about the people of the valley> If you claim Pakistanis have qualities like the above, Why is Pakistan in a pitiable state now. Dont u think u should improve your standing first.
Reading the comments and the article, I think the best way out if for those Kashmiri's who want to, to apply for Pakistani citizenship and emigrate, and for Pakistan to welcome them there.
That way the issue will be settled without bloodshed. It is totally impossible for India (or frankly the rest of the world) today to let go of Kashmir, because it is just a symbol of the source of the problem - forceful proselytizatjion, and has nothing to do with Kashmir in particular.
Frankly, if I was Pakistan, I would focus on Pakistan and its development, and if I was Kashmiri, on integration with the Indian state. Pakistan is a failed state, rapidly losing all its friends. It has totally lost Western trust or friendship, the Russian's dislike it, the Afghans hate it, and I wonder what the Chinese will start doing if there is another Uighur rebellion. Also, with what looks rapidly like session from Pakistan by Khyber Pakhtunwa, "FATA" and Balochistan, I wonder if Pakistan as a country will have any relevance long term. India is a booming economy and states such as Kashmir can leverage their size and status to get the best benefits and boom economically. This whole conversation is stupid and wasteful.
@Mohammad Asif: lol what is stopping you now?
Nehru is famous for his betrays first Muslims and then Sikhs ...
Pakistan should invite muslims not happy to remain in India to come to Pakistan on permanent basis.
This is promise to the chauvinistic hindus who feel that they have a right to keep the muslims of the valley hostage - as soon as this 'war on terror' is over, you are going to find out how passionately we feel about the people of the valley that are oppressed by your army. we will decide this issue at any cost and I mean any cost and I speak for most of people of pakistan. we are neither afraid of you or impressed by your slogans of secularism or democracy. we know what is intrinsic to you and that is the basis on which we will deal with you.
dead issues should not b discussed......lets discuss how we can prevent Pakistan from failing
@Jigi: You are absolutely right!!!! If there was ever to be a plebiscite, then only the Pandits will have a right to vote as they are the real, native and only Kashmiri. Muslims in Kashmir are alien migrants and not NATIVE Kashmiri And there is no doubt that Pandits will vote for Kashmir to be part of India!!!!
Legally, all this talk about plebiscite, Kashmiri self determination etc is nothing but nonsense chatter. It is based on "liberal interpretation" of land rights ie people have rights of ownership to the land simply by living on it. By that definition, anybody who squats on land owned by other will have rights to the land. The fact is that India has legal title of the territory Kashmir. So the question of its residents determining its fate is irrelevant. Any resident of Kashmir who does not want to be part of India should pack up and leave Kashmir, since they cannot have independence while on Indian soil.
On a more sound rational basis, the land of Kashmir belongs to the native of Kashmiris who are PANDITS ONLY being its residents for @6,000 years. All Muslim separatists in Kashmir are MIGRANTS from Iran and Uzbekistan and are NOT KASHMIRI as they claim to be. So these migrant squatters cannot have a right on Kashmir as an intruder cannot have any right to your house. So the question that India would hold a plebiscite in which non-natives will vote and seperate does not even arise.
@leader: "Sikhs, Buddhists, most Shias are fine with India this statement is not true". Sure, because it has been put in your mind that all other communities except hindus are being tortured,ill treated,and killed in India. Keep believing such trash and be happy in dreaming that all muslims of India want to go to Pakistan and all other communities want to be separated. India is cause of all ills of Pakistan etc. etc. Grow up and look around please; from 1947 onward the population of each community has grown in India and not diminished as in Pakistan where even Muslims like Shias, Bohras, Aghakhani, Sufees, Hindus and Christians have considerably diminished.
Sikhs, Buddhists, most Shias are fine with India
this statement is not true.
@Faysal: If the case is so simple then will some one please explain that when state of Kashmir,after partition, was living peacefully without being part of India or Pakistan then why did Pakistan army raided the state of Kashmir in the grab of kabailis and wanted to grab the state to become part of Pakistan. This deceitful act of Pakistan forced the people of Kashmir to seek help from India resulting in accession to India. If Pakistan had not attacked then may be Kashmir would have been living peacefully even today as independent state. But the surprise attack by Pakistan and its desire to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan has resulted in today's logjam.
T will be realpotik not legalities and technicalities that will ever resolve this issue. How about plebiscite in Tibet?
@S:
That was due to the fact that Hyderabad was a Hindu majority region. Jinnah gave the Nizam of Hyderabad too many false promises. The result was mass killings of Hindus till Sardar Patel intervened. As usual, the mastermind of these killings, Kasim Rizvi escaped to Pakistan.
@Babloo:
I hear that they were almost like brothers, besides Rahul Gandhi and Omar Abdullah are quite brotherly too. And because of that reason, Nehru always shielded Abdullah from Patel's wrath. And also for the same reason, of all the princely states that acceded to Indian Union, only the promises made to King of Kashmir weren't upheld.
no question of any compromise on kashmir by India,anyone not happy under indian rule can move to azad kashmir,lot of azaadi to be had there.
our family beeing a state subject of kashmir since 1890 from amritsar know the history of jammu&kashmir than people sitting out side assuming things irrelent to kashmir problem. kashmir problem after partition of india is a man made problem not a natural one.the kashmir problem can be solved on give and take basis taking into consideration of sufferings of people in both the countries . peace has no alternative other than peacefull co-existance. both countries are confronted with poverty , hunger, illetracy,ignorance as bigest enemies . both the countries must use their resources for the beterment and future of the children .in my opinion all the relegions of the world have become irrlevent in modern age. all the relegions of the world are nothing but collective madness. why we can not be simple ,straitforward and true to overselves and shun all kinds of rituals superstition,fanatism and be rational and practical in life.life is only once their is no second chance . one should not fall prey to egos of over ambitious and fanatic people. life is a most beautifull gift of the nature to be lived in harmoney with nature with love and care. nature is supream. live and let live.
@Kashmiri: The total population of Jammu + Kashmir at independence was 4.4 mn. Jammu has always been Hindu dominant with 60 - 70% of its population as Hindus and the balance Muslims, while Kashmir valley was predominantly (95%+) Muslim. Divide the 4.4 mn any way you want, how do you manage to substantiate that there were these hidden 1.5 mn people from Jammu who are now in Pakistan - this would require a population of 5 mn people in Jammu alone? (Population of Jammu is still only 3 mn btw).
You will never be able to argue with Kashmiris. Truth flies, falsehood perishes.
Long live free baloch movement. Azadi for balochistan before talkIng of hindu territory kashmir/kashyap meru.
To remind those who believe Plebiscite is exclusively for kashmiri muslims. We seek plebiscite for every resident of J & K & ladakh irrespective of his religion, his colour, his caste.... With regard to Pandits they are a party to the resolution of this dispute & none can deny that. Our communal harmony has set an example in the past & Gandhi also saw a ray of hope in kashmir when entire subcontinent was burning in communal clashes. Unfortunately, The fear-Psychosis in 1989 led to their migration, we are committed to do the best we can do to ensure their dignified return. But they seem to have no such intentions, & the vocal among KP's( who r in minority like Panun KAshmir) are hatemongers who are widening our divide with their hate filled speeches.
@Kashmiri: and why the governor was forced to issue such an order: most probably he knew that before muslim neighbours start killing hindus better take them out. 1947-1950 was a different time, even hindus were driven out of sindh and punjab and slaughtered, en masse. So lives of 219 innocents mean nothing to you. In the first place, if you are kashmiri why did you support paki infiltrators in killing pandits. and if you had genuine grievances why it was reflected by killing hindus ,why not demanding separation along with them.
@Kashmiri: You seem to have the talents that Zaid Hamid has....cocking up conspiracy theories.
Pakistan: Boo hoo, Look World, the big bad India is repressing Kashmir, boo hoo, they have 7 gazillon army men and are killing 1000000 kashmiris every day.. Boo Hoo, UN plebiscite should be implemented. Boo hoo, make India give back our toy, Boo hooo hooo...
World: Yeah, Whatever..
kashmir issue is dead now we can write articles only,
Faysal:
There are some facts of history that are based on issues that are beyond the pale. Kashmir perhaps deserved an vote at the time of Independence, but that was spoiled by the Pakistan Army & Razakar raid.
Now, with Pakistan's track record, allowing Kashmir to become part of Pakistan is equal to condemning the minorities of Kashmir to their death. Pakistan cleansed its hindu minority in 50+ years alomost completely. India won't let Jammu & Kashmir to go the same way.
If Pakistan can't live with that, then it'll die without being able to live with that.
My Pakistani brethren you can see what these fascist trolls have to say with Pakistan. I just feel pity. Jinnah told Kashmiris in 1945 "It's better to live in a hut than to live in a bungalow of insecurity".
90% of Indians dont even know where is Kashmir or what's happening. They talk about Kashmir as if they have PHDs about Kashmir.
If Kashmir were a part of India. Then why are we fighting since 64 years. We are not crazy. But we dont give up on our rights and freedom.
About Hindus. They left out of fear. They can comeback if they want to. They too have the right to choose their destiny. They weren't kicked out they left. While as Sikhs, Christians and even some Pandits stayed back.
I am a resident of IoK. Given India's incessant machiavellian approach & Indian Army's horrible HR violations, Our feelings for india (Establishment & Sec Agencies, exclude common people) are that of hatred & of revenge. There is no section in our society that accepts status quo, India has terribly lost its case in kashmir. To Quote indian Home Min Mr.P Chidambaram "It is a history of broken promises" & they are repeating it all.From Timber smuggling to Election rigging to HR Violations Army is doing everything here. It is in the interests of both countries to resolve this dispute as it is bleeding their economies too apart from india looting our resources. May the good sense prevail.
@Muhammad: AROUND 3 lac to 7 lac kashmiri brahmins were terrorized out of kashmir from late 80s to early 90s. but u seem to think that they don't have any claim over their motherland. lets be clear, if kashmiris(read muslims) don't want to remain with india they can happily cross the border into pakistan, and live happily everafter. driving someone out of his house and then laying claim to that land is unethical and immoral, and will never be accepted.
The author has written a biased article, completely hiding the frauds that india committed. He fails to point out why Nehru later backed out from plebiscite, why india sacked PM of kashmir etc etc. He says that pakistan failed to withdraw it's forces as required by the UN resolution,,, but he fails to mention that NOT all forces were required to be withdrawn FIRST, only irregular forces (i.e pakistani tribals & nationals) were required to be withdrawn first, followed by simultaneous withdrawn of both pakistani & indian regular forces as is truely mentioned in UNSC resolutions. He also fails to mention that there was no mutual concensus between indian & pakistan on TRUCE AGREEMENT, which was the reason why pakistan didn't withdraw it's irregular forces at that time. He also fails to mention that NOW there are no tribals in kashmir & current refusal of not carrying out plebiscite comes from only India. Inshort this article is nothing but Tinderbox of errors.
UN ordered plebiscite not for any good reason, but because of US influence. Pakistan was firmly in US camp then and security council was (still is) full of western powers. Now there are no takers of this idea becuase Pakistan is out of favor now.
If plebiscite is really the way to determine borders, why USA fought a civil war against confederate states? also why Pakistan doens't conduct a plebiscite in Baluchistan and KP?
Both Indians and Pakistanis should keep off Kashmir and let the people be. You have made them suffer enough! Neither Islamism nor some holier than thou Indian secularism legitimises either of the occupations.
We Hindus will NEVER give you Kashmir . What can you do about it
@Faysal: @Kataria: How about holding a plebiscite in Baluchistan and setting an example. Did you hold a plebiscite in the then East Pakistan? the fact that Kashmir has had free and fair Elections and people have come out in droves to vote despite threats from separatists and terrorists negates any calls for a plebiscite. Kashmir in India is far more democratic then Pakistan has ever been so Pakistanis have no moral legs to lecture India on Kashmir.
If the logic is based on two nation theory then that theory was consigned to the dustbin of history when Bangladesh seceded.
@El Shaheed who writes "Also. In 1953 Sheikh Abdullah realised his mistake, wanted Kashmir to be an Independent state. He intimated Nehru over his endevour. Nehru told him we will talk after he will be back from Spain tour. He jailed the PRIME MINISTER of Kashmir. Thus occupying Kashmir illegally since then."
You can play with words. But lies are lies. And no illegitimate cause in the world has ever succeeded.
You think Bangladesh would have been independent if their cause was illegitimate? Similarly, I wonder how long can Pakistan occupy Balochistan? Or rather, how long can Punjabis occupy Sindh, Pakhtunkhwa and Balochistan?
There you go - Pakistani obsession about Kashmir, the land which never was part of the country anyway. As if there are less problems to worry about.
One thing some Kashmir experts do not mention is that the UN resolution mandates withdrawal of Pakistani forces before plebiscite is held under Indian supervision. Since Pakistan was and still is unwilling to withdraw, the Indian authorities had the opportunity to stay put there, keeping until today the ball of UN resolution in the court of Pakistan. The Simla Agreement also weakened the case of Pakistan as both the countries agreed to settle the Kashmir issue bilaterally, and not raise it at international forums. And now with the Cold War over, the Western forces do not see any utility of Pakistan. Going by the above, Pakistan has itself weakened its case and perhaps even the UN as well as many Kashmiris realize that solution to Kashmir issue requires a new approach.
India has evolved a well defined system of governance, democratic and secular polity besides a rising economic power whereas Pakistan is still mired in sectarian violence and very undefined system of governance.
To sum it all up, it is not the world community (as the UN used to be during the cold war) but India and Pakistan both, that have to find a solution themselves to the issue. And to do that, expanding economic relations would be the first step, as China and India have been doing despite having more border disputes than of India and Pakistan. Current Trade between China and India is at $72+ billion.
@Mariam: shukriya
India at bakhshi's time sent truks full of notes into valley but they still had to face 90's and secondly india is afraid of pelbesite because even those in the government will vote for pakistan. And we care more for hindus and sikhs than so called secular india. You can watch our reginal channel for evidence. If voting goes in favour of india i will try to be the best indian and if their is some different result india will have to take pain killers because the have then waste their 63 year time in here.
Pakistan, Would you accept and treat the people of Kashmir as a part of your country, if they want to migrate to Pakistan?
Given your history, dear Pakistan, you have never treated your children equally. Bengalis...well, that was a long time ago. However, do you treat Sindhis, Mohajirs, Punjabis, Balochis, Pashtons equally? Have you ever, Pakistan, for a single day, treated them equally?
In other words, the day you do that and accept Kashmirs in your country (without their land) is the day, you show the world that you are HONEST. You really care about kashmiris and not Kashmir - a piece of land.
As of today, Kashmir issue is all about the land and not about Kashmiris. And we have a saying in India (which is also our motto) - Satyameva Jayate (truth alone triumphs). So, the day Pakistan brings honesty in its heart, it will start winning!!!!!
Please prove me wrong!
Pakistanis (and Kashmiris) are keenly aware that Nehru took to the UN for a solution which is why it is even more perplexing for them to understand india dilly-dallying on its obligations. Head in the sand approach won't make the issue disappear. Yes there are and will be some indian sympathisers and puppets but that is the case in any brutally occupied society. Increased trade and freedom of movement across the LOC are positive steps but not the solution. On the solution front, good news for freedom and democracy, Kashmiris (of all hues including the Shias, who indians have a patently false meme going around regarding their aspirations) have completely moved on from any notion of india. They (most of them, including SAS Geelani) have also put aside the idea of joining Pakistan. Pakistan can only play a supporting role. A common saying going around amongst Kashmiris is that Pakistan has no Kashmir issue (ever heard of cries for Azadi in GB or AJK? No.), but that Kashmiris have a india issue. Can only be a good thing as they lead themselves towards independence. The UN resolution needs to be updated to include complete independence. The Gilgitis, Baltisitanis, and Azad Kashmiris will not like it but they too need to sacrifice for the sake of the brutalized Kashmiris by the indian establishment.
@rehman, he should be now also know what happens to those that fall under indian occupation.
Pakistanis (and Kashmiris) are keenly aware that Nehru took to the UN for a solution which is why it is even more perplexing for them to understand india dilly-dallying on its obligations. Head in the sand approach won't make the issue disappear. Yes there are and will be some indian sympathisers and puppets but that is the case in any brutally occupied society. Increased trade and freedom of movement across the LOC are positive steps but not the solution as the Kashmiris have made it obvious. On the solution front, good news for freedom and democracy, Kashmiris (of all hues including the Shias, who indians have a patently false meme going around regarding their aspirations) have completely moved on from any notion of india. They (most of them, including SAS Geelani) have also put aside the idea of joining Pakistan. Pakistan can only, and should play a supporting role. A common saying going around amongst Kashmiris is that Pakistan has no Kashmir issue (ever heard of cries for Azadi in GB or AJK? while there are cries for seperation in certain quarters of Balochistan), but that Kashmiris have a india issue. Can only be a good thing as they lead themselves towards independence. The UN resolution needs to be updated to include complete independence. The Gilgitis, Baltisitanis, and Azad Kashmiris will not like it (they want constitutional integration with Pakistan) but they too need to sacrifice for the sake of the brutalized Kashmiris by the indian establishment.
Pakistanis (and Kashmiris) are keenly aware that Nehru took to the UN for a solution which is why it is even more perplexing for them to understand india dilly-dallying on its obligations. Head in the sand approach won't make the issue disappear. Yes there are and will be some indian sympathisers and puppets but that is the case in any brutally occupied society. Increased trade and freedom of movement across the LOC are positive steps but not the solution as the Kashmiris have made it obvious. On the solution front, good news for freedom and democracy, Kashmiris (of all hues including the Shias, who indians have a patently false meme going around regarding their aspirations) have completely moved on from any notion of india. They (most of them, including SAS Geelani) have also put aside the idea of joining Pakistan. Pakistan can only, and should play a supporting role. A common saying going around amongst Kashmiris is that Pakistan has no Kashmir issue (ever heard of cries for Azadi in GB or AJK? while there are cries for seperation in certain quarters of Balochistan), but that Kashmiris have a india issue. Can only be a good thing as they lead themselves towards independence. The UN resolution needs to be updated to include complete independence. The Gilgitis, Baltisitanis, and Azad Kashmiris will not like it (they want constitutional integration with Pakistan) but they too need to sacrifice for the sake of the brutalized Kashmiris by the indian establishment.
Few Pakistanis know that both Patel and Nehru agreed to a plebiscite in Kashmir if this was also done in Hyderabad. Jinnah refused because he was fond of Hyderabad and thought he would get it anyways (with a little help from the Nawab). Both Kashmir and Hyderabad backfired on Jinnah.
See below comments by noted lawyer and historian A. G. Noorani.
"the Kashmir settlement was possible on the 1st of November 1947 when Mountbatton offered a plebiscite in Kashmir and Hyderabad. Jinnah was very fond of Hyderabad and he refused. Had he done that there would have been no cold war between India and Pakistan; everything would have been settled there. Sardar Patel was prepared and Nehru would have been prepared, had he but agreed to plebiscite in Hyderabad. This is Jinnah's shortsightedness."
A. G. Noorani, TwoCircles.net, Nov. 17, 2009 (http://twocircles.net/)
In the most recent BBC poll conducted in Kashmir , only about 2-3% wanted to join Pakistan while a solid 48% wanted total accession to India including removal of all special land rights given to Kashmiris. Even among Kashmiri Muslims a very small minority, no more than 5% want to join Pakistan. You can google for polls conducted by neutral foreign news sources in Kashmir. My advise, Pakistan better try to save what is left of its country.
I wasn't aware of the Maududi called the Jihad in Kashmir unislamic. If that is the case, I won't support Kashmiris at all. Kashmir belongs to India and Indians have a right to do their version of justice in Kashmir. I am proclaiming a Fatwa here to all the Muslims to desist from the Kashmiri militancy. Please check the youtube for my brasstracks comments on the Kashmir issue. Jiwe Pakistan.
The problem with the Kashmir issue is that all three parties have a case! Solutions will have to be found which keep this fact in mind while seeking a just end to this longstanding problem. The bottom line is that Kashmir belongs to its people.
Well, there is a historical aspect to this as well - Kashmir originally referred to only the valley. The state of Jammu and Kashmir, which includes Jammu, Gilgit Baltistan, and Ladakh was created by the Dogras. Even when we look at just the valley, there has been mass demographic alterations of historic proportions such that Hindus would not be able to live there on their own free will due to the extremism of Islamic groups present in the valley. We need to ask ourselves, is this really a "Kashmiri" movement against India or an "Islamic" movement against India? The answer was very clear when Hindus were once again asked to leave their homes from the soil their ancestors had toiled on when Pandits had to flee as they did for the past 1,000 years from the valley. The answer, ladies and gentleman, is that the "Kashmiri" movement is really an "Islamic movement". This is why Gilani and Mirwaiz, both gentleman whose forefathers immigrated from what is today Iran under Turkic military maneuvers, prefer Pakistan, which is a country founded on the ideology of Islamic majoritarianism. What are the results of Islamic majoritarianism? Well, ask the Zoroastrians, ask the Pandits, ask the Hindu Sindhis, ask the Bengalis of East Bengal, and ask the Hindu and Sikh Punjabis too. There is no place for non Muslims under a state founded on the principles of Islamic majoritarianism. One should ask, if Sunni Kashmiris from the valley get to decide the fate of a entire state created by the Dogras, not just the valley, based upon the premise that they form the majority of the state, then why shouldn't Hindus get a chance to decide on the fate upon the entire Indian subcontinent when they form the majority of the subcontinent?
Additionally, you leave out some important pieces of the UN. The UN was an organization that India quickly found out was not truly international, and depended upon veto powers of the major powers, the majority of which, sans the Soviet Union, were against India's national interests due to post world war II dynamics which led to what is now described as the cold war. So the decision by a Kashmiri (Nehru) to go to the UN for assistance was based on good intentions, but ill advised. Since that time, much has changed. Pakistan has demographically altered Gilgit Baltistan such that the original Shias from the valley now form a minority in Skardu. Pakistan has also ceded land to China in return for military assistance through the Karakoram highway. Also, since that time, another Kashmiri, Indira Gandhi, separated the east wing of Pakistan from west wing hegemony, and another Kashmiri was appointed to create India's foreign intelligence agency that is well known in Pakistan, which is called the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW). Kashmiris have added much value to Bharat from time immemorial, and they have always been and always will be respected for that.
Baluchistan case is simple. It wanted independence in 1947. It was annexed by Pakistan against the wishes of Baluchis. Its king was made to sign on the dotted line. All its political and religious leaders were and are being killed routinely everyday by the Pakistani establishment. Everyday ET and every other newspaper in Pakistan is highlighting this. If voting is held today Baluchis will vote for independence. So please grant Independence to Baluchistan and then talk about Kashmir. Please remember Pakistan was created on a fictitious idea that Muslims will be prosecuted by Hindus. Instead 15% of India are Muslims and have refused to go to Pakistan. Muslims like Shias, Ahmedis are prosecuted in Pakistan. Even liberal Sunnis like the Bhuttos and Salam Tasser are killed by the State ot State sympathizers. Bangladesh has separated. Baluchistan wants separation. Muslims who have migrated to Karachi are being killed. So the idea of Pakistan for Muslims is long dead. Pakistan has been reduced to just a real estate of Punjabi army.
How cute, now the ones who support and fund terrorist groups are the champions of freedom movement ! Your Govt and few minions sitting in Srinagar (would love to kick them out to Pakistan) can shout as much as you like but you guys have lost it once you killed innocents or supported this killers in the name freedom movement. So keep your religion focused narrow agendas in your country and honestly we do not give a damn what you think.
I've met many Kashmiris from the occupied part and they all have same wish and demand of free Kashmir from india. Majority of Kashmiris don't want to be part of india. Talk of being with part with Pakistan or not is later. but if they decide to join us, our arms are always open to welcome them
ET should invite a Kashmiri writer to write on Kashmir. @babloo, yell that to the Kashmiris, they haven't and won't accept your drivel.
"Some of them (all Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, most Shias and some Sunnis... are fine with India."
Care to cite any source for this claim? A scientific poll perhaps? Or is it just based on hearsay and anecdotal evidence?
Also. In 1953 Sheikh Abdullah realised his mistake, wanted Kashmir to be an Independent state. He intimated Nehru over his endevour. Nehru told him we will talk after he will be back from Spain tour. He jailed the PRIME MINISTER of Kashmir. Thus occupying Kashmir illegally since then. The elections that have been held, do not constitute to the referendum as implored in the UN Resolutions. Plus these elections are rigged and the Delhi installs it's puppets. For us Kashmiris this govt is for Bijli Sadak and Paani. Also cleaning crap from the blocked drains. You can understand the sentiment by this example. In 2010, when Kashmir was burning, the "Chief Minister" traveled in a helicopter to distance that is only 30 minutes by Car to a Hospital. Where he was beaten and showered with chappals.
Kashmiris still seek freedom from India. Kashmiris still want their right to self determination. Kashmiris will never bow down to military hegemony of Indian State. Freedom.
Pray for us.
lol no....why even ask such a silly question.
pakistani's cant understand secularism, just as chinese cant understand frredom, and indians cant understand orderliness.
The author has rightly pointed out the multi-ethnic and multi-religious characteristic of Jammu and Kashmir. This makes it very different than the one-religion "Azad Kashmir" which was made to fall in step with the Pakistani norm in which people of even unpopular Muslim sects like Shias and Ahmediyyas enjoy the privilege of getting blown out inside their own mosques during Jumma prayers.
Manmohan Singh was a victim of the 1947 partition - he knows what new boundaries can do to people who land up in the wrong side of the new border. That is why he has insisted that redrawing of the international border is not a solution. What needs to be done is to make the international border irrelevant like the US-Canada border.
India's case is simple. India is always striving to be a truly democratic, secular state. So secession , on the basis of religious identity, has no basis and justification, whatso ever. Besides both the Hindu king of Kashmir and the greatest leader of Kashmiri Muslims at that time, Sheikh Abdullah, who himself was secular and a great friend of Nehru, chose India over Pakistan. Case closed.
Really we never knew this History part...
u bet it has!!