Pakistan planes would have engaged NATO in attack: Army
The November 26 strike near the Afghan border has sparked fury in Pakistan and further complicated US-led efforts to ease a crisis in relations with Islamabad and stabilise the region before foreign combat troops leave Afghanistan in 2014.
In a statement on its public relations website, Pakistan's military, which sets foreign and security policy, said that its response to the Nato strike could have been more effective had it been able to scramble its aircraft in time.
"The response could have been more effective if PAF (Pakistan Air Force) had also joined in. However, it was no fault of PAF," the statement said.
"The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters)."
Exactly what happened at the Pakistani posts along an unruly and poorly defined border is still unclear.
Pakistan said the attack was unprovoked, with officials calling it an act of blatant aggression. US officials, quoted in the Wall Street Journal on Friday, claimed Pakistani officials cleared the air strike without realising they had troops in the area.
The US Embassy in Islamabad on Thursday released a video statement on YouTube by Ambassador Cameron Munter in which he expressed regret for the attack but stopped short of an apology. Both the United States and Nato have promised to investigate the incident, expressing regret on the deaths of Pakistani soldiers but the White House said it was premature to consider apologising when an investigation was still in its early stages.
Pakistan has shown its anger over the attack by blocking supply routes for Nato forces in Afghanistan, and pulling out of an international conference in Germany next week on Afghanistan, depriving the talks of a central player in peace efforts.
Western leaders have urged Islamabad to rethink its decision to boycott the conference, but Pakistani Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said a reversal was unlikely.
"I don't think there is a very strong case to reconsider this decision at all," she told reporters on Friday. Pakistan has a long history of ties to militant groups in Afghanistan so it is considered to be uniquely positioned to help bring about a peace settlement, a top foreign policy and security goal for the Obama administration.
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May 2011, OBL raid. November 2011 twenty-four troops mercilessly attacked and killed. Reasons: (1)Our radars are turned of in peace time. (2) Our communication lines were dysfunctional.
Reduce the armed forces budget by fifty percent. Demote all generals and promote the troopers. Salams
well, I was not expecting this from a 60 years old Army - A communication failure. It sends a wrong message to the JAWANS at the borders that if someone will come to kill them, their Army won't act.
This also sends a wave of sadness to the nation, as well to the families of Shaheeds that GHQ is at standby when it comes to NATO/USA.
@Rosie Deus-von Homeyer
Let them come…as the Russians allowed Hitler and his mad army to march into Russia.At the end they were defited in a GORILLA,partizan war!
Why not invite the NATO to bomb your own country, why do you want poor pakistani civilians to be cannon fodder? Do you know Soviet Union had the highest number of casualties in world war 2, 10+ million civilian deaths. Do you want Pakistan to become Soviet Union or Vietnam for that matter? Will that make you happy?
The Americans do not have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ anymore! Sie sind PLEITE! Bankrott!
I though people were dumping Euros and buying Dollars since European countries were going bankrupt, I guess that means people have more confidence in Dollars vis-a-vis Euros
see these number http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm
Read all above comments making fun of the national defence but none realizing the handicap situation, not only the forces but nation is in. so naive,o innocent poor souls waiting for action, thriller and adventure packed news in front of our flat screen imported TVs pointing fingers and cursing the world around us!
Communication breakdown. Twice in short span of time. Time to seek help from U.S trainers!
Any believers?????
@Sadhu:
The Americans do not have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ anymore! Sie sind PLEITE! Bankrott!
@DB: "The communication with the post was broken after NATO attack, so do all you second guessers think PAF should have attacked NATO aircraft on account of losing communication with a post?"
Well, at they could have sent the air support out for recon !!!! Its not as if NATO would not have known it was PAF and not taleban!! As talebeans simply do not have airforce, not yet at atleast !!!! So why not send out anyone for recon????
@Concerned American the kind of statement is what makes the world hate America. Pompous & conceited. Time will tell whether Pak Army messed up or not, but your statement implies that NATO made no mistake. So according to concerned Americans its kosher to kill Pakistani soldiers and not have any remorse about it? Disgusting.
Well one doesnot know to lough or admire..Army is coming with new excuses..when it was pointed out that the Army HQ kept talking for 2 hrs in hotline when troops were dying and what PAF was doing, it took a week to fabricate the reply that there were communication break down..well..apparently there was not hotline between army and AF..if that is to be believed, even then a normal phone call, a cellphone call or even send a messnger with a chit from Army HQ to PAF..i am sure at dead of night, there was not enuf treffic that it will take 2 hrs to do that..or if army vehicles had no petrol, then well send one walking or on bi-cycle..that would not take 2 hrs... Also, if Pakstan provided nato with co-ordinates of those post and NATO were to know these coordinates as per Pakistan army, then, at the very lest Army could have given those co-ordinates to its own ir force,,,
@Patriotic: You do know what happened to the Iraqi planes that scrambled during the bombing of Baghdad, don't you? You can scramble the jets alright but at the end of the day, you won't have an airforce left. These Americans have technology that we cannot even dream of.
Bravado apart, the only thing Pakistan can do is plead for NATO and the US to stop. Let not jingoism overtake common sense.
@PAF Not sleeping!!: So this is what they feed you in PAF Mess. No wonder.
What's wronge with Pakistan Army/Airfocrce etc. American/Nato can come and wants what ever they want do and destroy and go away without even Pakistan army/Airfoce touch their single hair. Americans came killed OBL and Pakistan army was sitting like dumb duck. Recently Nato/American attacked Pakistan military post ,How come pakistan's socalled Airfocrce it seems like they can not fly. What happend to JF18 (What ever their name). pakistanies blame America/Nato for attacking them . It seems airfocre is made of PAPER AIROPLANES. One should have guts to fight back. Even small country will fight to save its personels or posts.. It's seem like Pakistanies are cry babies. Big talkers and have no respect and dignity. Pakistan is nuclear power, O'Really. Shame ,Shame . Pakistan like to complain,whine and grumble. Pakistan spend so much money for it's Armed Forces and money spent for armed forces should rather be spent on it's people, education,healthcare,infrastructure,roads and list goes on . I don't how long people will tolerate. There is no accountabilty in Pakistan. What ever it's Commander in Chief (Haqqani) is doing let him do who cares. As long as army is in inchrge Pakistan will remain the same. People will beg for bread, who care eat Guns. Life has no meaning. Americans will come and shoot you and Army will run like a naked monkies. World will laugh.
strong text
It was a very tragic accident,but it was a wise decision from the Pakistan Army NOT to shoot at the NATO choppers.
In 1986 the US NAVY violated Libya's borders by navigating in it's waters. Gaddafi ordered his Army to shoot and we,ALL,know what the conseequence was...the Americans turned TRIPOLLI into ruins.
Do you ,Pakistani,want the same faith?
USA&NATO are a monstrous military machine and you see what they did in Iraq... they SIMPLY eleminate everybody ,who stays in their way!
Why donot Army take the same procedure for Blood Money as taken during Raymond Davis?
We should learn something from Hizbollah and have faith that technological superiority of the enemy doesn't matter if Allah is with you.
@PAF Not sleeping!!: Wow, really ? Can you please mention the incident and provide link to read more about it. I am sure our fellow commenter here would love to read about the preparedness of PAF. That will be a morale booster.
Call yourselves, one of the best Armiy in the world!!!!! And you had communications breakdown!!!! Next time, please find better excuse as this is simply laughable, of the unit which consists of over million personal and has Nuclear capacity !!! This must have been Mother of all Communication Breakdown !!! So who's getting fired for this ????
Interesting to know that the Pakistani communication broke down. And yet they claim that the communication with NATO was intact and that they clearly said NATO it was their base they were attacking. Are people seriously blind to this contradictions ? Pakistani army may be true in their claim but world demands proof to support claims and not just "My words are true and to be believed". Has Pakistani army done any findings and provided any singular version of the entire event and how it broke down. Until yesterday they did not even speak about the NATO asking fro clearance before strike. Today after NATO presented their analysis the army claims that they received the request but wrong co-ordinates were given hence they signaled go ahead. This is what happens when people jump to conclusions before actual fact finding. In Pakistan emotions run far deeper than logic and need to investigate. I will not be surprised that in coming days there will be more embarrassment to army establishment that it was their error and not NATO's intent to attack the post. All this bravado the army chief is doing is just to strike patriotic and pride chord amongst misled citizens to support army no matter even if it is proved they erred.
In a statement on its public relations website, Pakistan’s military, which sets foreign and security policy, said..................:) Had the army focused more on its profession instead of DHA clubs, road and societies, things would have been different.
@Mohammad Ali Siddiqui: Dude, Pakistani Americans have no say to USA politics. So your threat is just a big joke.
What most people here dont realize is that retaliation in real world isnt as easy as it seems in video games. Had it been so easy 9/11 wouldnt have happened. US air force was confused as well same way PAF here was.
An attack from NATO was never expected. Now that we know it may happen again, steps to cover that deficiency are taken.
These are just media talks...PAF is not sleeping... The chain of command is to extensive ...You know what was the reaction time when USA visited Earlier this year ? [2 minutes] within 2 Minutes two F-16's Reached Chaklala Air base , Ready to take down the guests ..and guess what happened ... A phone call came to Foreign office, President office,P.m office ... and mission aborted !!!
Regardless of whose fault it is, 24 people died and we should all be sorry. Pakistan zindabad!!!
@Patriotic: The best analytical comment. Offcourse if army can contact Nato to stop the attack why couldnt they communicate with their own PAF? Ridiculos
Yep, only if the planes could get of the ground. The communication system to a war zone is not functioning and you say if you just had the communication system working, the planes would have taken off, what condition were the planes, you don't even know.
If the communication system was working, your excuse would have been that the crew was asleep or the planes were undergoing maintenance.
Then again you are talking to to your loyal worshippers: Pakistani's. Anywhere else in the world, those who are in power like the General, Marshals admirals would have resigned in shame or would have been fired, instead of blaming everyone else and their brother-in-law.
The Baluchis are smiling at Pak Army being rediculed. They are only good conquering their own citizens. Nothing to be proud about.
There appears to be a big goof up by the military not once but twice. Those responsible must be penalised since 24 precious lives were lost.
Some people here are pointing fingers at PAF. Not fair. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Read of PAFs role in FATA: PAF conducted 5,500 bombing runs in Fata since 2008 (http://tribune.com.pk/story/291762/paf-conducted-5500-bombing-runs-in-fata-since-2008/_)
10000 laser guided missiles were dropped and 4600 targets destroyed.
But for communication failure PAF would have treated NATO like FATA!.
Very Valid responses by the readers of ET +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Surely this issue will also land at the SC sooner or later and then the CJ will seek answers to the questions raised here.
If they could have, they would have
The communication with the post was broken after NATO attack, so do all you second guessers think PAF should have attacked NATO aircraft on account of losing communication with a post?
Thank God the army is more professional and reasonable than that.
@Agnostic: "Does anyone on this board seriously believe that the Pakistani airforce would take on NATO and American fighter planes ???"
The DGMO's first staement was true i.e. they do not have the capacity to fight back against NATO. I think however that this must have led to serious anger and frustration in the soldiers and to ward off the brewing rebellion against army leadership, they are now saying that PAF would have scrambled but for communication failure.
This whole story about communication failure is also interesting. A couple of days back they said that they were begging NATO to stop firing but NATO continued. SO clearly they were aware of the bombing and there was no communication issue at that time.
At some point the policy of running with hare and hunting with the hound becomes untenable.
@Fawad: Do you think that our RAW has such capability? Its our pleasure that our neighbor is thinking our useless RAW has that capability. Very interesting!!!
I'm sure patriotic Pakistanis will readily believe this and find some way to blame Zardari and America for the 'communication failure'. Pakistan's army is made of angels.
@Not me:
I agree step should be taken because this is a LAME excuse by Pakistan Army who has been fed alot and produces nothing. Similar situation happened on May 2nd, 2011 and Pakistan Armed Forces did nothing while American Special Forces stormed at KAKUL in Abbottabad.
Then in Karachi incident they attacked Armed Forces base and Pakistan Army did bull !!
I think Pak Armed Forces are to be blamed for all this stupidity. Surely, enemy is on the West and on the East while they talk a lot in public and how less actions. Next time this excuse is insufficient I would like to see resignation of Top Commanders and Politicians.
Pakistan should have been told that unarmed civilians were attacking the post and then they would have brought out their finest planes and heaviest artillery
I am sorry to say that our Army and Air Force are not what they are hyped up to be. Were this an actual invasion rather than a border attack, the enemy could have been miles inland before a decision is taken to engage. Here are a few scenarios of what actually happened :
1.Nato advised GHQ of their desire to respond to received fire. GHQ passes OK without checking that coordinates are for their own border post. It is a very likely scenario.
NATO does not inform GHQ and attacks post. Communication breakdown leads to PAF planes remain on ground.Touted by government. Possible but then I would question our armed forces readiness to defend our borders, regardless of who is attacking.
Word gets through of attack but PAF decides not to engage. PAF planes are no match for NATO forces and would have lead to unnecessary loss of aircraft, something we can ill afford.
Even PIA could have responded to the attack in this amount of time ...(err if it wanted to)
They should have used the line Musharraf used when he got a call from Armitage...we know that line works.
It was late in the night and it was cold. We do not have cell phone or any other form of communication. We were afraid to wake the top leadership of the army at that time. Now we have orders to act on our own so we do not need to disturb them at odd hours.
@JustAnotherPakistani: But the end result would have been the same!
Does anyone on this board seriously believe that the Pakistani airforce would take on NATO and American fighter planes ??? If they did, I am 100% sure it would be a disaster for Pakistan. Loss of planes and loss of fighter pilots. Therefore, "breakdown in communications" :-) Got it ???
@PTI-FAN: At least in the OBL case, they DID have an excuse. Since those were "stealth" helicopters, they don't show on radar. Hence the name "stealth".
There were no stealth helicopters and/or jets this time.
No radar?
If you got ONE PAF plane in the sky, you can use his airborne radar!
would have, could have, should have... give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pakistan Army never considers Airforce and Navy as parts of country's defense arms Thats the problem!
Pakistan army is as usual high on bluster but mysteriously low on actual appearances when attacked
@Nadir: Heads never roll in our military, you raise a word against them and you are a traitor. The fate of resignations is only reserved for us poor civilians.
what a joke... its ridiculous how they keep on changing their statements... first the DGMO says we did not retaliate because of their superior technology, then there was news of some haze and fog and now this... the DGMO said the truth the first time around... who are you trying to fool... perhaps the army generals were too busy making deals in property...
Dear GHQ,
Can you leave these things to our imagination? Why make yourself look more incompetent when silence would have added to your mystique? You should say, quite honestly, that we're in no position to engage in a shooting war with the Americans. We understand this and in it is no shame.
Now if our friends in the east had tried this the response would have been entirely different
@zindabad: or Zinda-bhag?
@Sadhu: I really doubt the authenticity of what your media is feeding you.
Yeh hein hamrey Shaheen..!! As they say image is everything... and our Army is good at it and we are stupid enough to keep believing... !
If 2 hours is not enough to scramble jets, I don't think PAF is ready to fight a war. No wonder the Americans got their choppers in and out after shooting Osama and PAF didn't have a clue. Waste of money !! It is time to outsource security to the Chinese.
Does the term "AWACS" mean anything? The planes would have been obliterated even before they could have engaged the NATO planes. Come on guys, get real !! This is not a subcontinent war. You should not punch above your weight.
Ok, so what was the point of announcing that they'd attack if NATO attacked them again if there was always intent for retaliation? I suppose it never meant much in the first place. No military, even if they're terrible, would ever send soldiers to attack anything without planning for return fire anyways. It's supposed to be universal common sense. The poor response time was probably far more surprising than even the biggest and most severe retaliation would have been. Maybe it's some kind of mind game. Make the enemy side lose focus by making them paranoid due to lack of retaliation making them believe they have to be getting setup for some kind of trap because the severity of the poor response time simply being exactly what it is on the surface is hard to believe.
Its all a plot to gradually make people lose faith in the only good institution Pakistan is left with.
Two Asian nations were able to get apology from USA, China for air space violation, India for President mistreatment for security check up. Lets see how much Pakistan can would get through high character politicians.
Wonder why no one has blamed India or RAW.. it should have been done by now!
This is what happens if you are using Chinese equipment. Radars fail when you need them and communication network goes off air when you want to communicate.
Blame it on the deeper than ocean friends.
Does Pakistan Army not have a secure radio communications with the local command centre ?. Most likely, NATO jammed all communication lines and the just like Abbotabad, the local commanding officer who should have noticed this and raised alarm with GHQ was blissfully unaware of this. But you will never hear about the incompetence at higher ranks that meant that these poor foot soldiers were left without any backup or help.The senior officers will club together cover up. You can bet on it!. Even now we have never seen any inquiry in how the US navy seals managed to get in and out without so much as a popgun being fired at them
Breakdown of communication sounds redicilus to me, there should be clearity on wether it was due to technical problems of orgnizations comand issues, approvals took long enough that youngmen to lost life while the Oldmen were in talks. Classic defination of WAR " in war old man talks and young man dies" .
Fact is PAF was scared. When PAF and PA dont care about their soldiers' lives, then why should NATO care.
@Concerned American: They have not yet blamed Indian?
@Not me: Dollars would repair communications!
Same breakdown problems of last time & all the time... I think we should evaluate buying chinese stuff atleast in defence which can be fake as well.
Communication failure!!
Can a Nuclear power afford a 'communication failure'? Heads must roll for this debacle. We have been dedicating a major portion of the budget towards defense, only to find out that we have a primitive communication infrastructure.
So incompetence then? Anyone resigning?
Army must introspect its own lack of timely coordination and response. " Communications down" is not the right answer as in any war, the enemy will always attack your communication as the first step. Perhaps time has come for pakistani military to make office of chairman joint chiefs of staff more functional, as it has been in other countries. Also there is dire need to get rid of beurocratic hurdles for timely response, the traditions that have plauged Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi armies since Mughal era. Apparently, these hurdles were created by Akbar the great to ensure that regional commanders will not exercise much independence and be vulnerable for revolt. Also it will be wise to create an operational headquarter for the westren border...like westren command that will work independent of GHQ in time of war and not look towards Pindi for orders. The jawans and officers on westren border must be provided advanced war-gear equipmment including night vision googles, anti aircraft guns and above all, means to evacuate the injured in timely fashion.
gen nadeem the other day said.. it was a marginal airspace violation therefore no need for air force intervention.. in 1965 we respond within minutes but todays era.. were struggling.. hell they could have used facebook to contact paf..within minutes.. fact is that all our might is reserved for the eastern border.. simple as that.. i guess things need to change..along with heads.
“The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters).”
Wasn't a breakdown in communications also reported at the time of the Abbotabad operation to kill ObL? Either (1) the comms break down much too frequently, or (2) NATO/US is able to induce it at will, or (3) they get an advance tip off.
So how exactly did the Army inform NATO that it was Pakistani checkpoints they were attacking? If I remember the biggest headline a few days ago was "Pakistan's plea to stop attack went unheard." Clearly the army knew it was under attack, so how the hell was there a communication breakdown if they could call and tell NATO to stop attacking, yet not inform PAF to send its jets?
Lack of communication - agreed. Having seperate golf courses was never a good idea.
lol...what joke. There is an excuse every time from '71 war till now.
First they said we were pleading with NATO when the attack was going on, so they knew about the attack. Now they have changed the story that thy don’t know?
Breakdown of communication?
So they were sitting atop a 8,000 feet ridge with no means of sustainable communication? I'll get my son to lend you guys his walkie talkies, hope that will help.
4 hours! People were getting murdered but the army never bothered to communicate with the Air force or intimate the government. Is there any explanation for this? Why was the Prime Minister not informed until the next morning? If they were unaware about the clarity of things then what were they contacting NATO for?
I smell a rat!
pakistan zindabad, things would be different if there were no communication breakdown
QUOTE: "Pakistan’s military said on Friday a communications breakdown prevented its air force from engaging NATO aircraft when they attacked two border outposts and killed 24 Pakistani soldiers"
sad news really once they came and visited Abbottabad now they come and bomb the border region. What excuse will we give next time when any other enemy enters our borders and attacks us? Communication Breakdown = we dont feel safe do something about it.
What balderdash is this?
A communications failure?!
Do they have one line?
@ PAF ..................its second time !!!!
I believe that Army would have also engaged Navy Seals. Would have, should have but at the end of the day the fact is they did not. Whining does not help.
The timely decision could not be taken due to breakdown of communication with the affected posts and, therefore, lack of clarity of situation, at various levels, including the Corps Headquarters and GHQ (General Headquarters).”
Steps should be taken to ensure so that this breakdown should never happen again.
If US President will not apologise to Government of Pakistan for killing of 24 army personnel, I doubt that Pakistani-Americans would not be voting for Obama and his team.
After shaking hands with US after 9/11 attacks, Pakistan is in war like situation. Now US is turning its back when US troops are about to leave Afgfahnistan.
US does not recognise the role of Pakistan and is not giving any importance to the issue, whereas in my opinion it is a very critical issue which US should settle at the first instance.
Wew should ask our all units to be ready to combact any further aggression by US or NATO forces and instantly kill and shoot down the aircrafts which are in our space.
What is becoming clear is that the Pakistani Army messed up. To hide this, they have started this rigmarole of blaming NATO.
2 hours was not enough time?? What exactly are we trying to fly?