Drama in Lahore: US diplomat faces double murder charge

Published: January 28, 2011

Broken windshield of the US diplomat’s car after he fired at two people in Lahore. PHOTO: IJAZ MAHMOOD

Broken windshield of the US diplomat’s car after he fired at two people in Lahore. PHOTO: IJAZ MAHMOOD Policemen stand next to a car, which police said a U.S consulate employee was travelling in when he was engaged in a shoot-out, after it was brought to a police station in Lahore. PHOTO: REUTERS/FILE
LAHORE: 

Two cases, including one for a double murder, have been registered against US diplomats involved in a dramatic shooting and hit-and-run incident, which claimed the lives of three men in Lahore on Thursday.

One diplomat has been charged for murder for killing two men on a motorbike allegedly in self defence, at Lahore’s Qartaba Chowk – while a companion of the diplomat, who is also an American citizen, crushed to death a bike rider in a hit-and-run incident, following the shooting.

The accused diplomat, Raymond Davis, opened fire at the two men – identified as Faizan Hayder, aged 22, and Faheem, 20 – at a traffic signal of Qartaba Chowk, after which he fled from the scene.

Two of his companions, who were in a Land Cruiser, tried to follow him but in an attempt to avoid a traffic jam entered the wrong side of the road and hit a motorcycle, killing one person.

However, two wardens managed to chase the diplomat and apprehended him at the Old Anarkali chowk.

Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) Muhammad Aslam Tarin confirmed that all three deceased had no previous criminal records, adding that none of them had robbed or fired at the diplomat.

Tareen further said that the American diplomat had shot at them, adding that two FIRs under Section 302 of PPC have been registered against the accused.

One FIR has been registered for shooting and killing two people, while another has registered against the unidentified accused involved in the hit-and-run.

Earlier reports suggested that the police declared those who were killed as armed dacoits. The CCPO had earlier said, “According to the diplomat two bike riders whipped out their pistol after which he fired at them in self defence and tried to flee from the scene.” He said that due to their suspicious movement, Davis thought they wanted to attack him.

Tarin said the accused was still in their custody and after consulting the embassy and prosecutors they would take action against him according to the law. He also said that the accused US diplomat was unable to show legal proof or license for carrying a weapon.

Superintendent of Police Umar Saeed Malik confirmed that both cars belonged to the US consulate. He said that the white car driven by Davis was headed towards a hotel when the incident occurred.

Ali Amjad, an eye witness, told The Express Tribune that the Land Cruiser, while following the fleeing car on Jail Road, collided with a biker identified as Ubaidur Rehman.

Davis’s car while on the run also injured a traffic warden who had tried to stop it. The car finally got stuck in a traffic jam at Anakali and was caught by the chasing warden along with an angry mob, Amjad said.

Raymond was then moved to Old Anarkali police station from where he was escorted to an unknown place by DSP Raza Safdar Kazmi in his official vehicle.

Amjad, who was present at the jail road at the time of the incident, said that the first shot was fired was from the car as, immediately after, the pillion rider fell from the bike. He said that more shots were fired from the car, after which it fled from the scene.

When contacted, US embassy spokesman Alberto Rodriguez told The Express Tribune that the embassy is working closely with the authorities and the consulate in Lahore on the issue. Although he confirmed that the US national is an employee of the consulate, he said he could not confirm his name or portfolio.

Hayder was a resident of Ravi Road and, according to his family, had left the house for the court to pursue a case against the killers of his brother who gunned him down a month ago. The family said that Hayder carried a pistol but only for self-defence. They further said that Hayder was not a dacoit, and was being used as a scapegoat by the police to save the skin of the American diplomat.

Published in The Express Tribune, January 28th, 2011.

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Reader Comments (221)

  • feroze
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:07PM

    If it was actually self defense then Bravo to the American for doing what needed to be done. If it wasn’t self defense then he should be tried accordingly. As for the US Consulate car running over a pedestrian, well for that the driver should be arrested for negligent driving and charged for man slaughter or what ever law that applies!!Recommend

  • Zone
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:08PM

    Now all religious parties will say that he was a CIA agent and the robbers were heroes and soon they will be called SHAHEED E CHOR…Recommend

  • Copper
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:12PM

    @Zone
    and all liberals will shout that kill all the Pakistanis save ourselves in “self defence”Recommend

  • Aown Kazmi
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:20PM

    MY HOUSE IS NEAR THAT ROAD. The man says he shot in self-defense but if so why did he try to flee the scene of the crime??? He was stopped by civilians otherwise he would have escaped, now this doesn’t seem like self-defense too me.
    Also he was american (and so obviously more learned about self-defense and what-not) so why did he shoot the guy in his head as opposed to his leg or just shooting the bike off the road. Also I might ad that this road is a very very busy street and so the “robbers” couldn’t have possibly stopped the car in mid day light, with hundreds of people around and than robbed the foreigner…. thats just HIGHLY unlikely.Recommend

  • Umar Farooq
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:31PM

    Self Defence means no use of power more than needed, ironically there is no fire from other side and if going to, in case, than again must have been killed the person who had the gun not both of them.Recommend

  • Long Live the Awam
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:35PM

    its a sensitive issue. We must not jump to conclusions. he killed the men with weapons may be his acts were governed by self defence . As an American he knew if he stop mob will do justice first then do trail so he tried to run away from the sceane and in a his way hit a padestrian. We should also try to understand the duress he was under going.
    I think he did what any one of us could have done in a country where we are seen not with friendly eyes.

    Let investigation proceed and trust our Law enforcement agencies. they are pakistanies and cannot go against the feelings of Pakistanis.Recommend

  • Jan 27, 2011 - 5:35PM

    @Zone – com’on where from you brought in the religious parties under current situation??
    Guys we should condemn this act of killing conducted under both the circumstances. No one is permitted on this soil to take law in hands. Do Americans kill robber in self-defence back is US??? No, so the very same rule applies in Pakistan as well, in case the americans had forgotten it.Recommend

  • Huda
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:36PM

    Imagine if a Pakistani had shot dead a couple of Americans in New York City. Hell would break lose. Waiting to see how this turns out.Recommend

  • jutt
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:37PM

    @copper
    agreed!Recommend

  • Rizwan
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:41PM

    Very soon there will be statement from home dept terrorist was about to fire on His Highness Mr, David so in self-defense he opened fire,
    Our own police department will escort him to airport for safe departure from dangerous Pakistan,
    I think somebody should give bravery medal to Mr,David,Recommend

  • Ali
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:43PM

    Why does the US have a consulate in Lahore anyways? They only need one in Islamabad, there is no need for them to entrench themselves in our country any further. The sooner they leave the region the better.

    If it was self defense then so be it. But there is no need for them to be there, unless they are tourists in which case they wouldn’t be getting shot at as they wouldn’t be involved in the internal affairs of our country!Recommend

  • Elyaz
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:47PM

    I am sure if some pakistani has done the same thing in USA……he would have been labelled as a terrorist……this american guy will surely get away with this regardless of he did this in self defense or on purpose…….n it will be a shame if they let him go without any trial…….Recommend

  • fedup
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:48PM

    if a pakistani kills 2 goras in USA in self defence, they would say he is terrorist. Justice would be denied to him, but here in Pakistan, that American wouldn’t be put on trial…Recommend

  • Iftikhar-ur-Rehman
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:50PM

    I believe the American has already been taken away by a senior Police Office KAZMI and maybe handed over to the Americans( TICKER ON ONE PRIVATE TV CHANNEL).The instructions must have come from Rehman Malik. I would like to ask him (REHMAN MALIK) if he himself had killed someone in self defense in USA he would have been arrested and the news would have been on each and every TV channel like BBC,CNN,FOX,SKY etc. I am sure he remembers when he was detained while going to Airport when his driver took a wrong turn.
    Come on Rehman Malik act in Pakistan’s interest just once………Recommend

  • Sara
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:52PM

    these so-called seculars and liberals even do not question whether american was allowed a gun.

    after following a lot of blogs here, i feel that we still have slaves in Pakistan who failed to realise that Pakistan got independence in 1947.

    Sham on you all……… you cry about your conciousness and when it comes to ordinary Pakistanis you get mum. slaves….Recommend

  • Junaid
    Jan 27, 2011 - 5:58PM

    @elyaz : comon most probably he did in self defence and we know how street gets nasty some times.
    even if pakistani did that in US resisting robbery he would get fair treatment.
    if he had killed robbers that nice and dont bring crap in between.Recommend

  • SUB
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:03PM

    @ Elyaz/ Copper? Huda: You are so True

    We have seen a lot of Mulla and Blesphmy law bashing on these pages in case of Salmaan sb’s murder, let us see how many bloggers show up to comment on this one :)

    I will be particularly looking forward to the “foreign educated” lot. HeHeRecommend

  • Nadir
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:08PM

    American and Israeli flagmakers in Pakistan will be smiling…alot of cloth is heading towards the flamesRecommend

  • Talat
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:12PM

    3 Pakistanis shot dead by an American National in Lahore just a while ago and has declared it an act of Self Defence …. The Same Self Defence in USA by a Pakistani would have been tagged “Terrorism” ….. ~!~Recommend

  • J.Oberoi
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:13PM

    A quick question: Is carrying guns legal in Pakistan? Everybody seems to carry one.Recommend

  • Nadir El-Edroos
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:14PM

    Is the problem that he killed two people, or that he killed two people and he was American. Killing two people in Pakistan doesnt even get you mention on the front pages, but if you are an American it does! Just goes to show how we Paksitani’s devalue our own fellow citizen’s. Recommend

  • Jan 27, 2011 - 6:18PM
  • Nadeem Ahmed
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:20PM

    We must wait for investigation before judging anything. If American is gulity, then must be punished accordingly.Recommend

  • edgarm
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:44PM

    agree with Huda and Talat. Recommend

  • Jan 27, 2011 - 6:45PM

    In other news , American killed thousand and continues to kill Pakistanis in self defense using Drone strikes. Thought this was a breaking news too. Recommend

  • Naeem Siddiqui, Australia
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:46PM

    @Sara

    The time of Slavery of Goras have gone this is the era of slavery of Mullahs of our respective sect.

    Why you are becoming so angry if a foreigner killed two Pakistanis who are suspected of being robber. day before yesterday in the same city a 13 years old boy blow himself to kill his fellow innocent Muslims that boy was made believe that he is doing right thing and will go to heaven by who!!?? our so called Mullahs. !!!

    Which incident is more serious !!!??

    Whatever that American diplomat done is wrong and a crimes, he is in police custody and being investigated wait for the result and let the legal process follow and don’t be so excited.

    And for your and my others excited Pakistani fellas information is that US could very well claim diplomatic immunity for her diplomat, lets see what happens. Recommend

  • Waqqas Iftikhar
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:48PM

    if he shot a couple of robbers dead …good on him….showed all of us how to act…Recommend

  • Shamsi Ajani
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:56PM

    Please tell me why do US counselor official carry gun?. Do diplomats carry guns and shoot people on streets and then do a hit and run and kill and injure additional persons. Veil of diplomatic immunity should be lifted and he should be tried according to law. Let justice be done.Recommend

  • Ed
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:56PM

    Kudos to the American diplomat for his excellent marksmanship! Recommend

  • Khan
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:58PM

    If any Pakistani had Killed any Ameriacn in New York in self defence America would have threaterned Pakistan for an attack as Paistani is involved in terrorist attack on US.Recommend

  • Imran
    Jan 27, 2011 - 6:59PM

    If the two bikers were indeed trying to rob him, then he had the right of self defense. At least he didn’t burn or lynch them.Recommend

  • Morbid Isolation
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:01PM

    @feroze

    …and you must be the king of the utopia where everything is black & white, proving a crime & providing justice is easy and unicorns are the predominant mode of travel.I’m sure the story and the aftermath will be MUCH more complicated than your naively simple conclusion.The world isn’t a simple place,it never was.Recommend

  • hghg
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:05PM

    **see first kill azam tariq spokeman and tehreek e taliban hakimuulah mehsud qari hussain

    long long time they killing you ,still you cant kill them

    show there dead body for beleive

    and about americans – dont let america bully you but still america will also do for its self interest what they can

    so improve conditions god help those who help themselves

    no businness news ever heard from pak always news of blast- no bearings,automobile ,tyres,medical equipments,die tool and moulding,making buildings and sccoflding eathquake,proof**,computer jobs,accounting,tally

    you only know (Hypersonic, Subsonic Cruise Missiles and Ballistic Missiles,fighter planes

    first thing why development budget small then military

    you can safe youself and think of attacking – this will create problem naturally

    you dont have anti missile system, no barriers on roads, no criminal records Recommend

  • Sharjeel Jawaid
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:14PM

    Having suffered the trauma of being mugged five times in last seven years, I wish me and all such victims could shoot the muggers and get away with it too! Recommend

  • A A
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:23PM

    Afia was also arrested in the name of “self-defence”.? She also attacked on american from karachi? And see how quick is our police in investigation. Pedestrian was also robber?Recommend

  • Jan 27, 2011 - 7:33PM

    This was American justice… now let us see the Pakistani justice…!!!Recommend

  • sohaib
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:34PM

    Since he is an Americans and we are their slaves, how dare our laws apply on them? Guys, cool down, this American must be already on the plane going home while we are venting our frustrations here. Just think about Aafia and many other Pakistanis languishing in their jails and our muted responses to these acts of injustice. You could call us poor , but are we beyghairat too??

    And diplomats are not allowed to carry weapons. Must one of those Blackwater types who have been given visas by the dozens by our ‘patriotic’ ambassador in US. Recommend

  • Guru
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:37PM

    Agree with you Khan..How confidence that these americans has ..and we Pakistanis are just born to die like that.. as we have no Body to take careRecommend

  • Aoun
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:39PM

    If he had really killed those persons in self defense then he got to prove it,
    He is an intelligence officer then he must be conversant with the rules of engagement, no where in the world it states that u shoot in the head of a suspected attacker. he should be tried in court and it should be made public
    weapon could have been planted also, there is no second witness about those who were alleged robbers and they pulled a gun out at himRecommend

  • Abdullah
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:45PM

    It wasn’t robbery…he fired from inside the car and both got shots in the back. Its like a pre-emptive action. They are free to kill anyone. Recommend

  • Zone
    Jan 27, 2011 - 7:51PM

    @A.A
    Aafia was a terrorist…what the hell she was doing in Afghanistan…Though her supporters say that her only fault is that she was wearing a scarf but the reality is that she started having extremist thought In the US and went to Af from Pak that is what her husband has said that is why he has divorced her..
    As for this issue…we Pakistanis are very radical towards american..the angry mob would have killed this american..that is why he did what was right..though having a gun with u in the public is nothing new to this country eg Karachi, Quetta etcRecommend

  • ali
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:00PM

    its amazing how is electronic media is on pay list of the americans themselves.
    Right now as i am writing this there is not a singlr channel reporting this.
    absoultely disgustedRecommend

  • Amer
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:00PM

    The investigation will find the details but I saw the pictures of the guys shot. One of them had a belt with ammunition around his waist which they say that people who do things like these usually have and the other guy’s gun was under the motorcycle. You can see all this on GEO as well. Recommend

  • faraz
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:05PM

    What has this incidence to do with liberalism or conservativism? He should be tried according to the law of the land, thats it!Recommend

  • Singh
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:18PM

    Most of commentator don’t know the Law In U.S. You guys are ignorant about US law.
    Yes In U.S.A in self deffence you can shoot & Kill. It is Land of Law & law is equall for every body. It does not matter who you are. Senater, congress man, Governor arrested same way as any other person. Ex. Governor Of Illinois is in prison on corruption charges. i.e he gave job to his known person etc. Mr. Tom Delay from Texas sentence for prison for channeling money from one account ot another account for political purpose. To all please read US paper everyday before you make any comment on US Law.Recommend

  • karachiite
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:32PM

    for the people who are asking why did he flee in case you guys have forgotten this is the same country where Sialkot brothers were done for! step in that guys shoes and honestly say you would stop to face the mob who kills first and find guilt laterRecommend

  • Abidi
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:38PM

    Good job done,Pakistan is short of two carjackers/terrorists.The Lahoris should be thankful to this brave AmericanRecommend

  • Mohsin Aly
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:41PM

    Great America ????Recommend

  • syed maududi
    Jan 27, 2011 - 8:53PM

    they kill from the drones, and its ok
    they regularly kill people in road traffic accidents and now they openly shoot people.
    but hey they are the good guys. we are all criminal/terrorist, unless you are from the liberal classes.Recommend

  • Jan 27, 2011 - 8:54PM

    Off course, Zardari or our CJ won’t be doing anything to this American whether he is right or wrong. They want IMF tranche of dollars. That’s the point. Americans rule. Recommend

  • tamoor
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:04PM

    wat nonsence American (panic situation)i don t get it .These three peoples are innocent.Recommend

  • Nael
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:08PM

    Justice must prevail. If it was self defense, well done. If it was unprovoked, he must be tried according to the prevailing law regardless of all the pressure and diplomatic immunity. Recommend

  • Danish+S.
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:11PM

    WOW! I salute the Pakistani double standards! Hundreds of people die on the streets of Karachi in incidents of petty theft but no one get all worked up about it. Those killers are on the lose, looting and maiming over and over again. But just because an American Citizen acted in self defense (still under investigation) and killed the alleged robbers, he should be termed as a terrorist? Can the LAW please have its turn in this LAND OF THE (im)PURE!!!?? Yes what happened to the little boy is indeed tragic and the driver of the vehicle should be prosecuted and punished for it, no question about that.

    There are a bunch of people who are claiming – “had a Pakistani done something like this on the streets of US he would’ve been termed as a terrorist”. Well my beloved countrymen/women when was the last time a Pakistani citizen did that? I remember one who tried to blow up a bomb in middle of Times Square and trust me he wasn’t doing that in SELF DEFENSE! And lets assume if some Pakistani does kill an american citizen in self defense, rest assured he/she will be TRIED in court!Recommend

  • Hamood
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:11PM

    If the the guys on the motorcycle were robbers and pulled a gun on him then he acted in self defense. American haters need not get emotional. All these American haters also line up US embassy in Islamabad everyday in hopes of getting a visa to the dream land. Hippocrates. Recommend

  • Ali Ebrahim
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:17PM

    Don’t consular staff enjoy diplomatic immunity (civil as well as criminal) anyway?Recommend

  • Haroon
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:32PM

    Wow!
    what a self defense !
    If this is a self defense, then why Talibans (not TTP) are declared as TERRORIST !
    Americans occupied their land and they are self defending, so simple.Recommend

  • Zone
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:32PM

    There is a problem with us Pakistanis we always think that there is a conspiracy against us from USA…we need to be secular and liberal…Recommend

  • A.S
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:40PM

    @Danish+S.:
    Well Said – Danish. bravo!!!!

    Double standards of people and their megalomaniac complexes have no place in today’s complex world.

    Watching the world with such tainted lenses will only consume from within with even more ferrocity.Recommend

  • Nadir El-Edroos
    Jan 27, 2011 - 9:42PM

    This is just so fustrating! Everyone is treating this guy with the same ignorance and media induced hype that Paksitani’s are treated with in other countries, were people presume guilt because he is Pakistani. Just because in America a Pakistani suspected of a crime is treated as guilty from the minute he makes headlines, doesnt justiffy that we should treat him as if he is guilty before knowing the facts. People are proclaiming here that the two motorcyclists are innocent, they may be, but let the facts come forward. Recommend

  • Waiting
    Jan 27, 2011 - 10:00PM

    How long before someone uses the ‘B’ word? i.e BlackwaterRecommend

  • Umair Waheed Sheikh, Khayban e Hafiz,IBA Karachi
    Jan 27, 2011 - 10:27PM

    Three less robbers on the road! Atleast the American had the courage to confront thieves. Otherwise they either would have robbed him or if they would have been caught, they would have been released the next day. So good for everyone. Why do people act so much against the Americans? They carry weapons because the government cant provide protection to its top brass let alone the common man. So what should one do! We should commend this guy for his heroism! Hip Hip Hurray!Recommend

  • Majid Urrehman
    Jan 27, 2011 - 10:31PM

    Justice must be brought. Otherwise we riot. Pakistan is not Afghanistan or Iraq. Recommend

  • Sara
    Jan 27, 2011 - 10:32PM

    one more Sara :)
    U r right ALI. diplomatic staff has immunity.
    By the way this AMERICAN was sent back as PERSONA NON GRATA, when he was in Peshawar.

    Now this is point, who sent him back in Pakistan, and what HAQQANI sahab doing in AMERICA, issuing visa’s to every american, without any investigation.Recommend

  • The US Paki
    Jan 27, 2011 - 10:51PM

    Guys, please read the news first and then comment on it. News does not say if the shooter was Gora, Kala or Coconut (brown outsite, white inside, meaning Pakistani who is US Citizen). In the news it does not say that the shooter was the one who also killed the third man, it was another car from the US Consulate which killed the third mand and injured the fourth man. Feel bad for all the dead and injured people.Recommend

  • Aftab Kenneth Wilson
    Jan 27, 2011 - 11:08PM

    Their family members are saying that these guys went to the courts on date of some hearings and were carrying firearms. Even many witnesses of the scene admitted that these boys were armed. Mr. Raymond David was on his way after getting cash from a bank and kidnapping must have also been in his mind (He is American) so it can be presumed he acted in self defense. All of us know the situation of lawlessness in our country where criminals easily get bail to do more crimes. Media Houses and fanatics are only having field days on this incident. Let us wait for some more findings from our Most Disqualified Police which will only do what they are told to do.Recommend

  • Mir Agha
    Jan 27, 2011 - 11:33PM

    It’s actually a conspiracy theory. Hatched by the ISI, China, Arabs, mullahs, and regular Pakistanis to make the poor defenseless us national out to be a murderer.Recommend

  • Khurram Nizami
    Jan 27, 2011 - 11:37PM

    today if we dont stand up as a Nation tht a fair trial should be conducted against these foreigners secondly why was there a fake plate no on prado as per Express News ?trust me these foreigners in a shield of self defence will start killing our Pakistani brother and sisters.

    Big parties like MQM and PML N should take up a stand if they have the courage I doubt MQM ll do it becaue of Altaf bhai been in UK, PML N should rise on this issueRecommend

  • Manuel
    Jan 27, 2011 - 11:37PM

    This seems like an op gone bad. Maybe I watch too much burn notice, but this seems like an op gone terribly wrong. The car that ran over the pedestrian was probably a) an escort? or b) the car pursuing the shooter.

    The shooter could be trying to flee the other car, and wanted to create confusion to escape. I don’t think he counted on the quick response of the public to surround him and detain him.

    Head shots also mean the shooter was trained and was executing the motorcyclists. So there may be something there.Recommend

  • Umayr Masud
    Jan 27, 2011 - 11:45PM

    Freaked out people should not be let lose on the road .. But i guess the people on the motor bike were curious because they finally saw a “GORA” after so many years .. and the gora was freaked of them being kidnappers.. Paranoia at its bestRecommend

  • Madiha Akhtar
    Jan 27, 2011 - 11:53PM

    Its either my way or highway. Either they are drone attacks or the involvement of the US officials in the affairs of the country.Though there are many speculations regarding this news that whether they were robbers or not? then are the US officials free to carry pistol in the streets of Pakistan? In 2009 also there was an incident in which four US marine officials were caught for having weapons in the federal capital of Pakistan. It was given much hype by the media but no concrete actions were taken. Lets hope that further investigations could reveal the truth regarding this case.Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 12:09AM

    the man will be called back to US and nothing will happen. he is just a technical adviser and does nt njoys diplomatic immunity but that does nt matter. The govt n the officials will provide him will ll that necessary stuff. The blood gone in vain. Had it been the case vice versa, then you would had seen how the plot would be linking back to Al qaeda and terrorists n finding a way to enforce diplomatic nd military pressures, for which they always trying to crfeate oppurtunities. Imagine soRecommend

  • critic
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:42AM

    compare your headline with the Dawn headline. you are fanning extremism.Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 12:45AM

    Foreigners aren’t allowed to carry arms, So even if it was self defense, the question arises why were they carrying arms. Let the matter be investigated. Plus two innocent boys were killed too, the american would need to pay damages for their life IF it was the result of his negligence.And for the record I am very much anti islam kay thaykaydar and “westernized” as right wingers put it. Recommend

  • nOOne
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:46AM

    It makes me recall that allegedly, Aafia used an assault rifle to attack trained US soldiers. She was tried, and jailed.
    Mr. David put a pullet in someone’s head. Nice shot. He is surely a professional. But not professional while driving. Killed another guy while trying to flee.
    What was he doing alone on roads of a terrorist country? Which is unsafe for any foreigner?
    According to intellectuals, i find here, it was an act of self defence. I question, were ANY of you there? (Furnish a proof, or stay quiet).
    Now this is something interesting. People mis-use law related to prophets. And that caused a huge outrcy. Well, why shouldn’t i believe that Mr. David misused his right of self-defence? If they were armed, with a licensed pistol, he was carrying unlicensed weapon. (baretta is deadliest from close range, and prohibited).
    And Mr. Australian, who commented on this post, we are “shah sy zyada shah k wafadaar”. Ghulaam zahniyat nahi tu aur kya hai?
    I just hope that when the murderer is tried in courts, witnesses are not prevented from giving their accounts. On a second thought, its not difficult to get “witnesses” for a few $$$. But, i still hope that justice shall prevail.
    Let me remind everyone here. No matter how innocent he is, he can’t escape imprisonment for life. And he isnt a diplomat at least. Could be a clerk or assassin or whatever. But not someone of a rank who should receive diplomatic immunity.Recommend

  • vijay
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:52AM

    No wonder, he was carrying a hidden agenda to disrupt the peace of Lahore , as they usually do.(No wonder we American can go beyond law to protect our interest/national security)
    why he tried to flee from crime scene??????????Recommend

  • Noor Lodi
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:59AM

    The thing to note is that no fellow American is condoning his act, neither are they showering him with flowers or 800 lawyers showing up to defend him. Or the American Christian Mulllahs giving speeches in churches to defend him.

    But I would agree if the situation was reversed with Pakistani in US killing two Americans, there would have definitely terrorist inclinations, at least in the media. Yes there is a double standard, but so do we have. We all are humans and we all have double standards. No one is perfect.

    Plenty of bias on both sides and plenty of miss-information all over.Recommend

  • Shazi
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:07AM

    He was infect CIA agent (Black water) solder who had killed 2 robbers, i think those were 2 robbers and they robbed this CIA and when they were going back on there back, he shoot at them and kill both of them, these 2 can’t be terrorist because terrorist just blow themselves they don’t use pistols like this, He kill 1 innocent guy in busy road of Lahore when he his drive car back in one way traffic and hit a bike rider and kill him, he would be charged for murder because he was not a consulate person and he had killed 1 innocent guy.Recommend

  • A. Rehman
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:20AM

    what a delightful comment! we have plenty of good marksmen – should we open season on his/YOUR compatriots??

    @Ed: Recommend

  • Venomal
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:22AM

    Its a sad incident indeed. My initial thoughts are, whether those two bikers indeed had a gun on them. Since there is no witness alive and no one to ask what his/their intentions were, I am afraid that this american would be cleared of all charges and send back to the US.

    Secondly, I second those who are talking about “What if, a pakistani had done the same thing in the US”, he would have had his citizenship evoked, his life ruined and a “Terrorist” label would have been planted on his forehead.

    Thirdly, I do not think that there is any harsh punishment for self-defense. What might be done is that this individual would be made to pay blood-money to the families of the two/three victims.Recommend

  • Asif
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:23AM

    if the pakistanis were robbers then atleast some cross firing should have taken place and why did the guy kill them instead of injuring them?Dr.Aafia is a constant reminder to the fate of a foreinger assaulting an american.Recommend

  • Ali
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:26AM

    This is an excellent opportunity among many others for Pakistani public to act like the way they are doing in Tunisia, Egypt and Yemen. Come on guys lets put our lives on the line and save this nation and our children. Who is with me?Recommend

  • Salman
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:34AM

    Im just surprised how quickly spare tyres turned up for protesters to burn. Recommend

  • Haris Chaudhry
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:39AM

    There are on average 50 people killed in Pakistan on the roads by fellow Pakistanis EVERY single day. Hundreds of women and children get raped by fellow Pakistanis. Thousands others get abused, assaulted and millions suffer injustices of various kind.

    The Ghairat Brigade again has jumped on this unfortunate incident for point scoring. This is shameful. If I was that American and someone remotely showed me the gun to intimidate, rob or kill, I wouldnt hesitate emptying my magazine to ensure I and my family stay safe.

    I am sure most of you will do that too. The Ghairat-Brigade just need to loosen up. Plenty of Pakistani based American killers are in American jail without a single of them accused of terrorism.

    In fact let me ask this hypocrite lot – State exactly when a Pakistani born American was accused of terrorism which turned out to be a false allegation ??

    There has not been a single Pakistani which killed another American and in return labelled as a terrorist by any media outlet.

    Most of the ghairat brigade feels so confused, deprived and mentally oppressed that they wouldnt let go of any opportunity to malign America.

    Haris ChaudhryRecommend

  • Zaidi
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:40AM

    They were men and this is no way for men to die!
    If he did it in self defense he should have known better than to shoot to kill!
    But killing a Pakistani doesn’t really matter does it? We would surely be carrying a Beretta pistol and shoot to kill as there are too many outlaws in Pakistan one less wont hurt or 2 or just one pedestrian.
    Now we should act as we are told and let him go back to his country.
    Try punching some one in self defense in NYC, and then we would be terrorists from a terrorist state.Recommend

  • HASEEB
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:43AM

    a time of disparity… a time to feel ashamed of being a Pakistani and announcing to the world openly that WE ARE THE SLAVES OF THE STATES AND DO WHAT WE ARE TOLD TO DO….. Pakistanis after the treatment of the government and police should know that they even have no worth in there own mother land’s streets….. our Police has defined that the word PATRIOTISM is the letter of the old standard English and that know we people whose grandparents once fought for the bride and honor are at present a piece of rubbish for the westerners who can do what so ever they will and do any sort of experiments on our nation for we are no more then mer LAB ANIMALS for them with no voice to shout and no feelings to express….. If today the YOUTH does not come up to the streets reminding the government their duties that they have on their shoulders for us so called FUTURE of the nation then I AM SORRY TO SAY I AM GOING TO FEEL DISGRACED TO CALL MY SELF THE MEMBER OF THIS ONCE TO BE A PROUD NATION…..Recommend

  • ACENITH
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:46AM

    trigger happy americans !! they have to answer to no one specially if its poor brown men who died !!Recommend

  • Hamood
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:59AM

    Pakistani state has failed to protect its citizens against armed robbers. Many a times even the police is in cahoots with the robbers. Dozens of such incidents with two guys on motorcycles happen every day in all major cities of the country. Since our government is not going to protect us, this seems to be only way to protect yourself. Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 2:20AM

    only we in the land of impure have the right to kill our own.. you outsiders stay away.. dont target our prey lest we go hungry.Recommend

  • Rashid Hasan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 2:21AM

    @feroze: If only everyone is as sane as you! Well said. Recommend

  • smaq
    Jan 28, 2011 - 2:33AM

    wow! i feel sorry for people who are supporting this act, actually not only our leaders but also faction of our educated society is “slave minded” ,

    how can you allow an american citizen to kill people on the streets????? and just think for a second if this would have happened in america by Pakistani citizen????

    May Allah help us and protect us from “slave mentality” of our people.Recommend

  • riaz
    Jan 28, 2011 - 2:35AM

    @awan… what if next time he will kill someone you know in self defense?Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 2:38AM

    @Guru:

    The liberal jihadis will side with the american until their own becomes a target practise, they probably too shameless to even admit that. Complete story is, their was another car that was rushing in aid to the American [who shot the guys on the motor cycle for carrying a pistol], and ran over another pedestrian, how was he able to carry a weapon, when he is on visit visa and not an employee of the US consulate?
    Liberal jihadis diverting with generalizations is despicable and pathetic, there was a PAkistani citizen body parts son of actor Jameel Fakhry which were just handed over by the US, they never charged him of terrorism nor arrested the ones who murdered him. If the bystanders would’ve had the wisdom of our slave system, they sshould’ve done the “infinite justice” on the American there and then, that would’ve been better.Recommend

  • Nadeem Ahmed
    Jan 28, 2011 - 2:56AM

    If those motorbike riders had pulled a gun on American and pointed towards him, then he had every right to fire first and defend himself. Everything will come out after investigation, but my question to Pakistani media is that they were quick enough to find identity of american, but identities of those victims are still not clear. Their bio data will tell the whole story.Recommend

  • saqib sharif
    Jan 28, 2011 - 3:35AM

    Why the blood of Pakistani people are so cheap? I am asking this question to all Pakistanis, Can’t we become and behave like a nation? Can’t we stand for Pakistan not for Zardari/Nawaz/Altaf/Asfand/Kiyani? Can’t we become Tunis or Egypt?

    We have to become a nation my brothers and sisters otherwise we are will be killing like this and our Govt. will not look at our interest infact others and theirs.

    Please join your hands for Pakistan.Recommend

  • Clean Pakistan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 3:43AM

    what the heck was he doing in that part of Lahore, in a private car, armed, ready to to go that length – to kill? and the rescue team treated people on the street like insects – kill at will to save him?

    i sincerely hope unbiased investigation is done and justice is served, otherwise it will further sour the Pakistani-Public US relationship.Recommend

  • Ali Haider
    Jan 28, 2011 - 4:27AM

    He must be having some name? Or is his name American? Why are we making this a Pakistani vs American issue? And if he is handed over to the US consulate then we should be ready to see more of such incidents in the future.Recommend

  • An American
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:13AM

    This is a conspiracy by CIA, Mossad, RAW, ISI, KGB, FIA and UN to divert attention from AfgahanistanRecommend

  • Peace On Earth
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:30AM

    The article doesn’t state details such as if the man fled the scene or not so I won’t rush to judgment. However, if you live in Karachi you are probably aware of men who ride bikes and carry AK-47s with them and I am sure you would also fight back if one of them pointed a gun at you. If the US citizen did indeed fight back in self-defense then good job.

    May justice prevail…Recommend

  • Sam
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:32AM

    Pakistanis need to learn self respect and get rid of AmeriKKKan menace that has dehumanized Pakistanis and shed their blood with impunity. US CIA agents in Pakistan are crminal thugs.Recommend

  • Imran
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:40AM

    Shame on Pakistani Govt and Police, it simple robbery case and everyone knows it, and Shamless Pakistani govt is ignoring the fact he acted in self defence…

    Free the American citizen asap!Recommend

  • Imran
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:42AM

    Free American citizen asap, he acted in self defence!Recommend

  • Hamza
    Jan 28, 2011 - 6:01AM

    Self Defence can be used as a defence if there was a fear of immediate grievous bodily harm. This could have been possible if the American did see the victims taking out his gun (a gun was found). The opposite is true if the gun (on the victims) was never used.

    What is necessary is, that people should stop jumping to conclusions and become self declared judges. We have courts for that

    Moreover, the media needs to stop being irresponsible in such matters. It is appalling how certain tv channels have already popularised this as a conspiracy theory and I’ve tried to gain political points from this situation. Such channels need to be dealt with strictly. Speculation does not help anyone. Recommend

  • Mawali
    Jan 28, 2011 - 6:35AM

    give us all a break!Recommend

  • J
    Jan 28, 2011 - 8:10AM

    @feroze:
    You don’t know what the he’ll you’re talking about! We are not going to allow an American Diplomat be prosecuted in a Pakistani court. Why don’t you go over there and see exactly what it’s like to be an American in a country where you don’t know who wants to kill, kidnap, blow you up and/or exploit you before they kill you publicly. You’re misinformed my friend…Recommend

  • kazmis
    Jan 28, 2011 - 8:20AM

    @Aown Kazmi:
    In Karachi dacoits loot in the traffic jam on the gun point. While in Lahore both dacoits were in possession of guns. If a person killed them at self defense then it is no surprise. I wish all pakistan citizen should be allowed to kill dacoits at sight in self defense. It should be no crime.Recommend

  • Jamal
    Jan 28, 2011 - 8:25AM

    Pakistan should immediately boycott the military aid, to start with. Pakistanis ask for military aid and this happens. Wikileaks showed how our general was sharing sensitive information with the Anericans. He even asked them to help him get an extension. That is why they do it. Recommend

  • Ramzan+Ali
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:04AM

    @Huda; Agreed to your point !!!

    Nothing will happen to this American, once the PM or the President will call the police & tell them to leave him. After all we been sold to Americans……..Recommend

  • bilal
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:27AM

    he will bribe and get of all this mess quickly if he understands our costumes im sure he is :P Recommend

  • hateAmerica
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:32AM

    @Zone:
    U made a stupid comment…If we people don’t have soft corner for our people ..then what can we expect from our non-Muslim enemies!!!!!!! It mean we are rightly kicked by Americans!!! Think before commenting in this type of issues, that what we want to show to the world!!Recommend

  • Mujtaba Abid
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:49AM

    our so called FREE judiciary will soon declare these american asses innocent !Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:52AM

    @Zone:
    Well! he may be, though I’m not from anu religious outfit.
    Allegedly, he is the same person who was stopped at Sherpoa checkpost in 2009 and denied the authorities by keeping his car locked and instead threatening the law enforcement agencies.Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:59AM

    @The US Paki:
    I wish you were related to one of the deads closely, anyway we’re taught to have real brotherly feelings for all Muslims.
    At the same time, we’re taught not to be lenient with even real son or daughter if involved in a crime.
    will US govt allow any Pakistani to attack their citizens any place in the world, merely after a Pakistani felt threatened?Recommend

  • RizwanTKhan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:04AM

    Govt better not let this American go just like that. Only courts should do it after the whole proceedings. Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:06AM

    @fedup:
    As they say, Dr Afia was detained and awarded 84 years inprisonment, just for aiming a weapon on US soldier? (though we don’t believe it).
    the bottomline is that we should make ourselves strong enough to tell any foreigner in their faces that we had enough.
    our leaders should resolve their issues within the country and not complain and get benefitted through foreigners. they should invest and generate profits by developing economy of own country.
    Only then we can get a respectable treatment from the world.Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:11AM

    How come a visitor who came just 10 days ago, drives perfectly on Lahore’s congested roads and speaks fluent URDU?
    Check this link as well.
    http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8021598-punjab-police-suspect-us-killer-is-a-spyRecommend

  • Fahad Zafar
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:20AM

    No one has any right to kill people. How would “robbers” try to rob a person in broad day light and on that busy road. The American spy could have called emergency police number for help and if he had to shoot then he could have shot on the legs. Government should request US Govt to withdraw his immunity. I hope Mr Shabaz Sharif and Mr Shah Memmood can answer our questions as Chief Minister and Foreign Minister respectively. Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:20AM

    @Nadir El-Edroos:
    Yes we do take serious note even if the killer is a local, especially in such circumstances.
    Secondly, if he was Chinese, we could have taken it liniently due to vice versa relations.
    there should be a tit for tat.
    I have a question here
    Why don’t you dissolve UNO, if one of the members & their citizens have to act like a master over others?Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:26AM

    @Naeem Siddiqui, Australia:
    Please make yourself comfortable in Australia. If you’ve that much of pain for this country, fall back and face what your fellow citizens are facing.
    It is easier saying than facing; Are Mullahs to be blamed for everything, including killing of these 3 people?
    maybe some Mullah hepnatised david to feel threatened to the extent that these may be killed on point blank.
    Do you know who’s behind that brain washed 13 year old child?Recommend

  • Yasir Siddiqui
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:40AM

    One simple question that we should be asking is what in the world was he doing at Qurtaba Chowk in the first place? Americans have no business there except that they were probably planning another terrorist attack on our soil to fuel anarchy and insecutiry. I firmly believe that CIA has a lot to do with most of the terrorist attacks carried out in our country in order to create reasons for us to believe that we (Pak & US) share a common enemy.Recommend

  • adnan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:42AM

    So if it is agreed that lotters (if they are in this case) have to be killed in a same way, then we must shift this duty to the americans… by the way self defence does not mean to kill other person…here in this blog it seems that many a people are still doing their self defence and just wanted to paint themselves as Liberals…(so called)….
    Is not it the misery of this country these so called Mullas painted every incident as Sazich to islam and on the other hand our so called Liberals tried their level best to portray what ever west is doing, is right and Halal on us….. Recommend

  • American Spy
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:45AM

    This American Agent, “Raymond Davis” (if that is his real name) had 3 cell phones and a gun. Only spies carry 3 cell phones.

    Besides, the two other Americans killed an innocent pedestrian. The driver must be charged and tried in Pakistan.

    None of them had diplomatic immunity, so they must all be tried in Pakistan. Also, no Bail must be granted.

    Lahore is not Iraq nor Afghanistan. Recommend

  • yar jan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:46AM

    seemed he was aware of it already and the rest 2 were too actors of this drama…. ………………Recommend

  • satyram
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:49AM

    Here point is not this that he killed two young Pakistani in self defence, point to be noted is this that how much rest of the world is afraid of Pakistanis.Recommend

  • Rehan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:55AM

    Many question comes to mind:

    1) Why the american guy was carrying the weapon with him?
    2) Why he tried to flee from the scene?
    3) If he fired in self-defence then what threats were there for him as there wasn’t a single fire from the other side? Seems like he is trying to deceive the issue.
    4) He must be charged accordingly to kill an innocent biker while trying to flee. There could be no excuses for that at least.Recommend

  • Sandy
    Jan 28, 2011 - 10:57AM

    Law of the land must prevail !! But tradition of not obeying law is set up by Pakistanis themselves why to blame somebody other. Americans follow their laws at home and make us compulsory to follow them in US . Recommend

  • S Asghar
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:04AM

    Many have missed the sad part that the guy who got hit by Four wheel drive on wrong side of the road. He was getting Married next month. When can we take our glasses off from nationalism and Americanism to just actually feel the tragedy :/

    I even do not care for those woman who got knocked down from raksha, they are still alive but not that fellow :/Recommend

  • Simple
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:11AM

    A case should be registered against Raymond, in Pakistan. And if families of the murdered give immunity, then its OK, Otherwise Raymond should be hanged in Pakistan as Law says.
    Government should not play a dollar game on this incident.
    Judiciary is now a trusted institution. Chief Justice should take a suo moto action. Recommend

  • Kash
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:15AM

    We are indeed a stupid nation. We jump to conclusions and blow our time and brains out on something that is not even investigated. We run on media hype and we lynch, kill, rob our fellow citizens on our bloated egos. Think about it, those who are trying to accuse the driver… If I am the person driving and someone tries to rob me or my family (if it is proven by witnesses), I have every right to kill, whether i shoot him in head or his crotch is my justice, you shouldnt tell me what to do… because YOU were not there to help me when i was being robbed. So YOU should shut up. And if that American is a blackwater guy, why would he kill in broad day light to innocent looking bikeriders in a city where he lives and works everyday… May God let justice prevail…Amen Recommend

  • J Oberoi
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:19AM

    The ‘gorey log’ will never respect the sanctity of human life in the subcontinent as long as we ourselves don’t. A common man’s life in Pakistan and India is worth nothing. We are illiterate, stupid and let religion,caste and creed rule our lives. No wonder that a handful of Englishmen managed to rule a huge country like ours for centuries. We just don’t have the intelligence to see the right from wrong or work together as a society. If somebody shows us a dollar note, we’ll sell our ethics in a jiffy.

    It is time we faced up to the fact that as a race of people, we have a lot of evolving left to do. We are still mentally primitive and can never hope to catch up with the Orientals or Caucasians. The rest of the world will move up while we languish in our petty differences and religious narrow-mindedness. I hope we nuke the hell out of each other. The world will be better for it.Recommend

  • RKM
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:25AM

    face the truth…no authority can even touch this american…trust me…!!Recommend

  • Thoku
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:27AM

    Why is everyone asking why he carried a gun? to shoot down air balloons.Recommend

  • Armi
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:37AM

    @Hamood : Hypocrites;believes one thing does another, not Hippocrates ; an ancient Greek physician.

    There’s more than meets the eye here. Americans won’t station a stupid gora in Pakistan. Either he was perceptive enough to figure out that he was gonna be robbed and took action. Or he’s been in Pakistan too long and has lost his mind. And as for the Land Cruiser that thought it was on some kind of rescue mission; ridiculous.
    @Ali Ibrahim : Diplomatic immunity for murder? This surely would be a test case.

    The law for self defense: Use of force is justified when a person reasonably believes that it is necessary for the defense of oneself or another against the immediate use of unlawful force. However, a person must use no more force than appears reasonably necessary in the circumstances.

    David would be tried in American courts as the Americans wont let him be tried here and in any case Pakistani courts wont want to take the risk of letting him off the hook lest they been seen as pro-American, so they’d want to stay away from the matter.Regardless, the important thing would be to establish if he used more force than necessary.

    Here’s a precedent for the hit and run.
    “An American diplomat, Consul General Douglas Kent, stationed in Vladivostok, Russia, was involved in a car accident on October 27, 1998, that left a young man, Alexander Kashin, crippled. Kent was not prosecuted in a U.S. court. Under the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963, diplomatic immunity does not apply to civil actions relating to vehicular accidents. However, on 10 August 2006, a U.S. Court of Appeals ruled that since he was using his own vehicle for consular purposes, Kent may not be sued civilly.”

    Simply, put it wont be surprising if both the accused escape any sort of punishment.
    Eventually the Pakistani masses are gonna rue their leaders for being American “ghulam” and the urban intelligentsia and rulers would rue the “awams” lack of comprehensibility of how the real international political structure operates. sigh.Recommend

  • bunny
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:38AM

    Zone: If it would have been you or ur relative then what…..

    Its not a religious issue why someone is carrying weapons in Paksitan that has no lisence….and are we so cheap that anyone could kill us and then say i did it in self defence…..Justice should come in…no politics….just proper investigation and then justicce….Recommend

  • SA
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:43AM

    Its rather sad to see that the so-called pro america liberals are still defending the culprits of the incident giving them the benefit of doubt. Lynching the accused is of course barbaric, condemning isnt! Or have the foreign degrees really gone to their heads?? Pathetic and disgusting! Recommend

  • Waqas
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:44AM

    Let justice take its course; it is said the those shot were armed, so they can not be pronounced innocent of the alleged charges. It needs to be proved beyond doubt that the American did it in self defense.

    Considering what our mob is capable to do (sailkot example) i think the American did what I wud have done i.e. escape to avoid being beaten to a pulp by general public. In order to make it impartial, a judicial commission can be formed to see that justice is served.Recommend

  • Tippu
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:51AM

    There is no reason for any foreigner to gun people down. So the possibility of the the american killing two innocents is extremely remote. On the other hand, there are many many many idiots who chase cars and lots of abduction gangs.

    So the first thought that came to my mind was: WELLDONE!!! this should teach those %$^% to keep their distance and not flash guns willy nilly.

    The second thought was, even though i am sure the american did the right thing by gunning these two hoons down, the law of the land must be respected and to let justice run its course.

    I am confident the american will be found not guilty and i hope he returns home safe and sound. Recommend

  • Shakil Ahmed
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:56AM

    The americans will soon fly to USA and may be a “C Off” also given by Mr. Premier and President.

    And our “Elite Class” must start demonstrating one more case and the “Religeous Parties” would successfully move toward a new topic from the old “Boring Puplic Issues”

    The the Commentors including me here is ready to write over here and to continue bearing all the losses for the Nation.

    And yes, The Nation, has to earn few coins to keep their children “Living”.Recommend

  • Dimple
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:00PM

    No one has the right to kill us Pakistanis… only we can do it to ourselves!Recommend

  • Jawad+Iqbal+Jawad
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:02PM

    two robbers, if they were, could not do the blunder of stopping a car on a busy road, in heavy traffic. On the other side the youth was hit by the other vehicle was totally innocent. Can they say that they killed him in self-defense?. According to Americans Dr. Afia only attempted to kill the US soldiers in jail where she was imprisoned after getting kidnapped. She has been given life imprisonment and now what about the Killer who intentionally murdered two Pakistani citizens who had no criminal record previously. His fellow killers crushed an innocent Pakistani citizen under their jeep. After drone attacks, helicopter attacks,now, they are killing Pakistanis on roads. They must be stopped. Otherwise they will start their door to door campaign in killing our citizens in “Self Defense”. How can one declare the killed ones robbers before complete investigations. Its totally prejudiced point of view. Recommend

  • Shakil Ahmed
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:15PM

    and and and and was the Aafia Siddiqui’s Case was not of “Self Defence”?

    My question is from “LIBERALS”Recommend

  • Faisal
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:26PM

    Raymond must face the trail of Pakistan. Every one Innocent Until Proven Guilty.Recommend

  • Sana Rasool
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:26PM

    Excuse me but carrying guns is definitely NOT legal in Pakistan or any other country of the world for that matter.

    I was just wondering how can two people on a bike try to hit a guy in a car? And how did Mr. Davis even get suspicious in the first place? How did he know he was going to be attacked? And if he did it in self defense as he claims, why would he flee? Why not tell the police whatever happened?

    Plus the fact he had back up all ready to pull him out of the scene kind of indicates it was all pre-planned by the Americans. Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 12:33PM

    @feroze:

    Both of them must be punished to the full extent of the law. They must also not be allowed to leave the country under any CIRCUMSTANCES. Pakistan needs to act now and show to the world that we are no pushovers. Salams for 2011.Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 12:33PM

    Its called preemptive strike actually. Gora Sahab had gut feeling that the “terrorists” gonna pull their pieces so he acted first. Just like his govt did in Iraq and Afghanistan. Recommend

  • Pakistani
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:35PM

    If they ask for their diplomat’s return – Then why not AAfia and others -

    COLD BLOODED Murder in Broad Daylight – they r the real terrorists as becoz of their attitude terrorism flourishes.

    Time to take a stand – Wake up Pakistan Recommend

  • Awam ki Awaz
    Jan 28, 2011 - 12:38PM

    First Question: How the hell a foreigner allowed to carry a weapon in foreign country with out license ?

    Second Question: It’s a universal law that you are never taught to use your powers and kill in the name of self defense. Why the Mr. David didn’t shot them on their legs an calls his backup team ?

    Third Question: Driving like lunatic in wrong way and killing innocent biker ? Who is going to pay the price of it ?

    And I am pretty much sure that the foreigner was not only a employee of foreign embassy in fact a highly trained commando who had guts to carry and use weapons in open street.

    Mark this: “this guy will get away in any means even if he is guilty for the charges of dual murder”

    You all know the reason…Recommend

  • Amir Ali
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:07PM

    ok some one explain to me this. the bullet marks are at the front of the wind screen .. not at the door window. Shouldnt robbers rob/ threaten from the door window.
    The shots indicate that the bike riders were infact in front of the car .. and not at the side .. rest i believe you people are smart enough to figure things outRecommend

  • Cyko
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:13PM

    Wonder US sending so Poor DIPLOMATs who are killing only for 1000$? Thats what David u’ve been taught leaving US as a diplomat, “Shoot someone if u withdraw money and finds someone carrying a gun, follow barbarian law wherever u go” … American diplomats comprises of such cheap workers … Amazing…

    U were driving 1.8M (PKR) vehicle, with a coverup vehicle of more than 2M (PKR)…hmmm 1000$ is lmore or less 100,000 (PKR)

    1000$ presumably as a day’s max withdrawing limit, is it, fellas? Incase if it is a robbery.

    If, david, you are diplomat u’ve been briliantly brought-up/trained, as a Killer, never knew Diplomats with such skills…

    @ Rameez Khan the author : DRAMA in LAHORE ??????? U Call it a DRAMA ????Recommend

  • Afridi
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:14PM

    Guyz,

    When your own state is incessantly engaged in killing, marginalising and disenfranchising its broad swathe of its own citizens in Baluchistan and KP, how come a state will bother about this incident… Recommend

  • A Pakistani
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:33PM

    *I have checked all the web sites and news westren news media like BBC, Sky News, Reuters and amazed to see that every one is telling that he killed the two gunmen, but no one mentioned that they also killed a biker hitting with the car while trying to flee from scene on wrong side of the road. You can’t see the news about the third innocent biker hit by the American consulate vehicle. * Recommend

  • Hasan Z.
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:43PM

    Mir Aimal Kansi also shot couple of CIA officials just outside its Langley HQ … I wonder if the US authorities and their moderate supports had ever questioned the motive … He was arrested and handed over to US authorities by their Pakistani Servants … as he committed a crime in US soil and US law was applicable on him …. same is the scenario here … and hope to see the justice is done.

    And the American Intelligence official involved should thank God … that he was NOT in Sialkot :) .Recommend

  • bilal
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:52PM

    Not far is the day when these ruthless Americans would fire left right and centre in all our major cities. We are a banana state to them and law of our land holds no value to these tyrants.
    Our govt. is a total stouge to the white house and they can do nothing to bring this AMerican to justice…instead they protected the American by driving him back to the US counsulate. I am sure that DSP would be promoted for the service given to the American citizen. Its a shame today being called a Pakistani. That american killed 3 of our fellow citizens and we cant do anything. WOWWW!Recommend

  • IZ
    Jan 28, 2011 - 1:54PM

    I agree with ‘A Pakistani’ – the American who killed someone by recklessly driving on the wrong side seems to me to be a greater criminal. He killed an innocent man after all and should be punished for it.Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 2:29PM

    The claim of self defence does not make sense in this case not because of the people of Pakistan but because of the facts as mentioned below:

    The American official shot the back of the motocyclists through his car’s front windshield. 14 bullets in one body and 4 in the other.
    None of the eye witnesses have described so far any robbery attempt by the motorcyclists. As we all know by now, it is a very busy crowded place and hundredes of people saw the drama unfold but nobody saw the motorcyclists trying to rob him as he claims.
    After shooting the motorcyclists, he got off the care and started to take their pictures. If you were there trying to defend yourself from a robbery attempt in which you ended up killing two people, you will be quite shaken and would wither want to run away from the scene or call the police. You will not definitely start taking photographs of your “game”.
    And then he radioed his peers, who then showed up in another car to rescue him breaking all traffic rules and killed a third person as they were coming on a very high speed on the wrong side of the road.
    He then tried to run away and in that he hit and injured even more people.
    He never surrendered to the police. You can see the ffotage (and there is plenty of ametuare footage of this incident), citizens and members of police did not let him run away.
    The worst thing is that almost all Western media outlets already declared him innocent and the the people who were murdered as robbers. They even twisted the words of Pakistani police spokespersons. Instead of quoting them as saying (as they did say” that “The American told us that he killed in self defence and ….), they took the quotation marks out as well as any reference to the American official in reporting those words.
    As far as your idea about the Western diplomats being armed when travelled in these countries, you should know that they are not supposed to be travelling everywhere + they are suppose to travel with their security.
    Remember, this is not the first time that American officials are caught carrying and using their weapons against Pakistanis in Pakistan
    I am sure nothing will happen this time again to the American official. Who cares about Pakistanis?Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 2:34PM

    The claim of self defence does not make sense in this case because of the facts as mentioned below:

    American shot the back of the motocyclists through his car’s front windshield. 14 bullets in one body and 4 in the other.

    None of the eye witnesses have described so far any robbery attempt by the motorcyclists.

    As we all know by now, it is a very busy crowded place and hundredes of people saw the drama unfold but nobody saw the motorcyclists trying to rob him as he claims.

    After shooting, he got off the car and started to take their pics. If you were trying to defend yourself from a robbery attempt in which you ended up killing two people, you will be quite shaken and would wither want to run away from the scene or call the police.

    You will not definitely start taking photographs of your “game”.

    The worst thing is that almost all Western media outlets already declared him innocent and the the people who were murdered as robbers. They even twisted the words of Pakistani police spokespersons. Instead of quoting them as saying (as they did say” that “The American told us that he killed in self defence and ….), they took the quotation marks out as well as any reference to the American official in reporting those words.

    Furthermore they have blackedout re the innocent killed by over-running at high speed on a one way raod by driving at the wrong side as well as the several civillians injured in traffic violations.

    So much for the “freedom of expression” What a hypocrite lot

    Blockquote

    Recommend

  • khan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 3:03PM

    Rather then get emotionally ‘patriotic’ about this episode, I would try to imagine what i would do if indeed I was being pursued by thugs with guns. If realised I could not get away due to a traffic jam or some such thing then if I was carrying a weapon I would have little choice but to confront them.
    Reports indicate that these two dead men were armed, then in my books Pakistani, American or Martian the person who shot them, did so with justification Recommend

  • Zia
    Jan 28, 2011 - 3:09PM

    The story is not as simple as it sounds. Some reports are also saying that he fired on a treffic warden and pointed his gun on the civilians and the policemen who arrested him.

    There are some news reports that the American used hollow point bullets. Use of such bullets is prohibited under the Hague Convention of 1899. Unlike ordinary bullets, these bullets expand once inside the target and cause more tissue damage causing sure death.

    In his book ” Way of Deception: The Making and Unmaking of a Mossad Officer”, the former Mossad officer Victor Ostrovsky tells about extensive use of such bullets by Mossad target killers.

    These facts show that he has received extensive weapons training and was involved in somthing more than ordinary diplomatic stuff. The vehicles were using fake number plates, why? Recommend

  • ALI
    Jan 28, 2011 - 3:33PM

    The Central Intelligence Agency declined to comment on whether the detained American was an agency employee. Former agency officials said accounts of the incident suggest that the American was an agency officer. One former official with experience in Pakistan said that the CIA operates a base in Lahore and that ordinary diplomats are not armed. Recommend

  • shoeb
    Jan 28, 2011 - 4:02PM

    The america should be awarded sitar-e-jurat for service to the civil society after all he killed scum bag Pakistanis!!!!!, oh oh and dont forget the noble peace award for getting ride of 3 terrorist!!!
    We need more people like you sir there are still 17 crore Pakistani left.

    P.S. am i liberal enough? Recommend

  • Nak
    Jan 28, 2011 - 4:27PM

    Remember Afia BIBI,,,,,,,,,,,now its our turn,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,lets see what consitution said,,,,,,,,,,,,,and then see what’s Government did ???? Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 4:28PM

    The Most Important of all is the Drone attack which they doing daily despite our anger, lame protest which infact pointed towards our goverment permisission According to UN 2,043 Innocents Killed by Drones … and if rest were Terrorists then also are our people … So my point is that Nobody should other than us has any right what so ever we do our people … We have Military we have police and all should be done by us not by Other Foreign Agents ….
    Well in this particular case i dont see any self defence issue …. they (The Two Innocents) didnt fired at him not a single shot so why he thinks he is defending himself and in that process kill one more too….
    Self Deefence has many angles …
    Self Defence is that when somebody punch u first than in reply u punch him back ….
    Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 4:34PM

    @Danish+S.:
    Danish Saheb u r refering the issue of FAISAL SHAHZAD … dear also add that in your post he has American Nationality also ….So its very much a problem of USA not for Pakistan … and is the clear case of Failed Secuirty appartus in America after that 9/11 case ….Recommend

  • Jan 28, 2011 - 4:53PM

    @Zone: can you talk sensible on a serious issue as this? or this issue is also a piece of new “spice” and “conflict” for you?Recommend

  • Zia
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:12PM

    Nobody fires dozens of shots in “self defense”! Recommend

  • Mawali
    Jan 28, 2011 - 5:13PM

    The fact is that the morcycle rider wa carrying a gun confirmed by his family. The American fleeing from the scene is also self defense. We all know the mob mentality of our crowds, the American did what all sane people should have done. Now the crushing death of the other fellow is inexcusable and should be dealt with in accordance with whatever law is in place.

    But kudos to the Americans for being in Pakistan and carrying out the diplomatic and consular duties under the most extreme conditions. American should close all Posts in Pakistan except maintain a diplomatic office. Recommend

  • A.R. Azad
    Jan 28, 2011 - 6:12PM

    @Naeem Siddiqui, Australia:
    Nadeem sahib, if someone has committed a crime one should not justify another crime on the basis of that crime, Why u r justifying the killings of three innocent Pkaistanis by an American Terrorist. What so-called democratic government of US and US judiciary has done with Afia Siddique? Pakistan should try this US man in accordance with law of the land. Recommend

  • Sana
    Jan 28, 2011 - 8:32PM

    I have seen a lot of people taking a dig at liberals. Liberals are not always Pro American neither it’s important that they follow western life style. Liberals are Muslims like you. Liberalism exists in the mind, not how a person dresses and live.

    The motorcyclists he killed in “self-defence” were not criminals. I am a liberal person and i will say that this guy deserves maximum punishment. Not only him but also the driver of other car who killed a pedestrian.Recommend

  • Kaiser Hameed Khan
    Jan 28, 2011 - 9:23PM

    @Aown Kazmi:
    Bravo to American Justice,Peace and human rights. The American Motto says,”In God we Trust” but the killer certainly does not trust in God for he did what GOD prohibits! Killing. I would like to Ask the American Nation what it would term the actions of this American Criminal and then what about the manslaughter by the driver who over ran the motorcyclist?I do not propound a tit for tat response because that is not what Islam preaches. However where is American Decency? does any American Official have the decency to come on TV and Apologize ? Are the Americans super Humans?What do you think wil this not generate hatered for the Americans in this part of the world and also world over?
    Ironically Muslims and particularly Pakistanis believe more in the Motto “In God we trust” And I trust if the American nation does show grace, DIVINE Justice shall Humble the American Pride.Please mark my words!
    I am sure if these criminals had truthfully accepted their crime, a lot of Pakistanis would have forgiven him for this is the custom in Islam.Recommend

  • raza
    Jan 28, 2011 - 11:14PM

    dear
    its one way of source/agent termination
    in the hidden policies of CIA this technique is used
    so we must analyse this incident from this angle as wellRecommend

  • Romm
    Jan 29, 2011 - 12:07AM

    I am sure David will leave Pakistan unharmed and many Dubious Characters will be Exposed now. No doubt, It’s great loss But movement of CIA operatives will be restricted due to enhanced threat from extremist elements. Nationalist elements may join hands with fanatics due unprovoked firing by David. That wud be difficult time for Americans. Recommend

  • barula
    Jan 29, 2011 - 12:57AM

    my friend was an eyewitness to this event, here is what he says he saw:

    the american pulled up behind the biker boys and shot first from the car through the windscreen. the pillion rider got caught in the head and died right there. the other guy only got wounded at first tried to run but fell to this knees. thats when the american got out of his car, walked in front of the injured guy and shot him twice.

    he then went back in the car, threw the gun outta the window under a daewoo bus got a digital camera from the car and took pictures of the two guys.

    He saw police coming and waved some id at them shouting them to come over. typical pakistani policeman ran the opposite way.

    crowd started to gather so the american got back in the car rammed some vehicles trying to get away. his friends pulled over in a prado i believe and he tried to get away with them.

    my friend was in the right most lane, another car was in the middle lane and the shooting occured in the third lane.

    he said the pistol looked and sounded expensive, he said it couldve been a glock. cia style

    too much for self defence isn’t it !Recommend

  • Waqar
    Jan 29, 2011 - 1:26AM

    @ Zia
    “There are some news reports that the American used hollow point bullets.”
    That’s an interesting observation.Recommend

  • Mir Jaffar
    Jan 29, 2011 - 1:52AM

    Why do you address people as ‘sahib’? Are you so slavish?Recommend

  • Mir Jaffar
    Jan 29, 2011 - 1:53AM

    @Zia: Learn some good English.Recommend

  • nazish
    Jan 29, 2011 - 2:29AM

    i am utterly amazed to read a few comments up here from da so called liberal class ov our society……praising dis diabolic deed….
    chasing da american dream,we have lost our identity, individuality n patriotism……iv we cant stand by our own ppl we have no right to be called a pakistani nation……..uber shame to all da pro americans…..
    God is da only Judge…..can only hope n wish to c dis fiend (raymond davis)go thru an impartial court trial!!!it wud be too good to be true!!!

    how dare these americans put up dis show in OUR homeland!!!

    its tyme v take a stance…..its tyme v make our voice heard!!!its tyme v condemn our rulers and their acts!!! wake up PAKISTAN!!

    hum dekhain gay….lazim hai k hum bhi dekhain gay…..woh din k jiska wada hai…..hum daikhan gay…..Recommend

  • Shuaib
    Jan 29, 2011 - 6:40AM

    the US diplomats should be taught a lesson out of this. This is Lahore, not Afghanistan where these CIA agents can roam around freeRecommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 8:22AM

    Dear Bros & Sis….

    Its not Just americans but civilians of Lahore… I wish and hope it should happen in Nwfp… I am proud of my Province, city, town, village. Doesn’t matter how bad we are how many ppl we kill, but if outsider kills our ppl its not and never accepted.Recommend

  • SA
    Jan 29, 2011 - 9:24AM

    @ Tippu, you write “I am confident the american will be found not guilty and i hope he returns home safe and sound” Looks like either you have sold out your sense of dignity or you have sold out your vision. The two guys might not be innocent but what about the biker who was crushed to death for no reason? Its not the americans that we need to worry about its extremists like you that need to be taken care of, be it religious extremists or liberal!!Recommend

  • Sameer
    Jan 29, 2011 - 10:10AM

    I think ISI and Mullah have conspired against American innocentRecommend

  • shuaib
    Jan 29, 2011 - 10:17AM

    This is due to the free hand given to America by Musharraf and also the present Government .More than this can happen. This American must be given punishment of death 3 times in the open so that no body will dare in future to repeat such action.
    Every body knows that America has given punishment of 80 years to Dr Afia Saddiqui due to the reason that she tried to kill American in self defence.
    Now one thing is sure that American can not sleep sound any where in Pakistan. They can buy few hundred of the Assembly members but they cannot buy millions of Pakistani who hate AmericaRecommend

  • Sulaiman Malik
    Jan 29, 2011 - 12:05PM

    just 3 important things:
    1. Diplomats are not allowed to carry a weapon, and the bike riders didnt pull out their guns.
    2. The hit and run incident by the other car was also wrong. It was promised that both the driver and the car will be handed over last night but not done so far.
    3. The law in the US doesn’t allow manslaughter in self-defense without a sentence. I have a friend in California who served 6 years for involuntary manslaughter after he killed someone (despite the fact that the gora had shot at him first but missed). Guess what, his first name is Muhammad.Recommend

  • Jan 29, 2011 - 2:45PM

    Pakistan is a HUNTING FIELD for the International Forces. Arabs got Permit or License for HUNTING PURPOSE.

    No need to say that America is our Patron & BiggBoss; so he doesn’t need to get any such BONDAGE. He has full AUTHORITY to prey the Beautiful Birds or Powerful WarLords, after all he is paying for it. The entire Americans are fond of Adventure, Fun, Hunting & Shooting of Man but saving the Animal Kingdom. This is why America has a Silent Authority to use his Nuclear Weapons, MDW & Drone Missiles where ever & when ever he likes.

    He has preyed millions & millions of HUMAN BEINGS in Japan, Cuba, Iraq and Afghanistan so far. More over, he assisted so many others with FUNDINGS & WEAPONISING in such activities.

    The Gentleman who has killed these persons should not be accused of any charge as all the Black-Water-Personnels have Full Liberty of doing it. When our Elected Rulers have, SILENTLY, allowed them, then nobody should have any objection in this regard.Recommend

  • Zia
    Jan 29, 2011 - 3:15PM

    @ Mir Jaffar: I am a mathematician. I don’t want to learn ‘good English’ Recommend

  • Anonymous
    Jan 29, 2011 - 7:43PM

    Hey now i really want to see all those “Liberals” and “Secularists” who were so much into the Salman Taseer’s murder story and giving explanations about how islam “Doesnt” give Death penalty for Blasphemy! Where are they? why arent they blogging now like they were until 2 weeks back? Isnt this an act deserving the same condemnation from every class of Pakistanis be it Liberals or “Extremists” ? Recommend

  • Shaukat
    Jan 29, 2011 - 8:20PM

    We must stop comparing Pakistan and US. Pakistan is surviving because US is giving money , food, arms..Let me tell you the US citizens are very responsible people and would not kill sitting ducks. Let proper investigation be done. What kind of country is this? Why it has committed itself to America? The problem is simple, Pakistan should review it’s policies, and UNDERSTAND it’s LIMITATIONS. Enough of comparing itself with India and dreaming about Kashnir..a generation is gone 63 years of hatred!!!..so many innocents have died! WHAT HAS ANY ONE GAINED? Young soldiers dying every day, inncocent civilians losing lives…POVERTY, ILLITERACY….no electricity, , roads in shambles…no civil infra structure!!! PLEASE THINK WHAT ARE WE HEADING TO?…Why do we have to allow terrorists to breed? So long as we don’t change our policies, there is NO light at the end on the tunnel..Recommend

  • Saira
    Jan 29, 2011 - 9:48PM

    I like to believe nobody’s innocent especially in today’s world. Why would a professional diplomat go around carrying a gun?? Yes, he has diplomatic immunity but its more courtesy then actual permission to go around shooting people. And why would an “innocent” citizen go around carrying a gun?? I’m a civilian I have relatives who are civilians and in the army. I do not personally know anyone who carries a gun with him at all time. If both parties were innocent why were they just casually lugging around arms???

    I’m sure that diplomat got himself it to some kind of trouble and must have been threatened or something and those young men must have been sent to “take care” of the situation. The diplomat got spooked when he saw them and opened fired. Recommend

  • canada
    Jan 29, 2011 - 10:32PM

    **america has given medical help to poors, dvt pumps ,ventilators for hospitals,military help
    n helping fencing af – pak border

    still you blame america
    iRecommend

  • pakpinoy
    Jan 30, 2011 - 12:27AM

    @Sana Rasool:
    Your comments really lack weight. Carrying a gun is not illegal in many countries. Do you live in Pakistan?? Have you ever traveled there? I worked in the Frontier for many years…guns are part of that culture without question!

    You ask how he got suspicious? Why not ask the question in the opposite manner to expand your mind a bit?? What foreigner in their right mind would EVER draw a gun publicly in a foreign country UNLESS they felt at risk?! My gosh…and did you seriously question why he would flee the scene?? I really think you’ve never lived in your own country! ANYBODY in their right mind would flee due to mob justice so prevalent there that reacts before thinking, appropriates justice without proof of guilt OR innocence. The “street” is an emotional tinderbox ready to light there and any honest person knows this. How many times have we had to shut down our offices due to this ever-present reality!

    BTW, I’m an American who lived and worked in Pakistan for almost 10 years – learned language, culture, society very well and still travel back often. My perspective is relevant.Recommend

  • Sonam Malik
    Jan 30, 2011 - 12:41AM

    American shooter had senselessly gunned down two innocent persons. Americans have become physio cases because they know very well that they are involved in Pakistan aimlessly. They can never ever prove own character` justified in our region. Americans known very well own wrong line of action and conclusively, they often over react on the situation which in fact is not based on realty. Many think-tanks in America have identified the reasons of such mental deficiency due to aimless / fruitless involvement in this region.

    Weapon without license, car’s registration number, attempt to escape with full-intention accepting himself as criminal, his illegitimate activities in Lahore instead of Islamabad (a justified territory for performing duties) are the red question marks on part of American Diplomat.

    He opened fire from the front side of the car. I assert robbers on such a crowded place can never try to rob by killing a person. No one, on the road saw these boys taking a robbery initiative. The boy, whose brother killed one month ago, can open fire on killer(s) of his own brother. Let us think for an instant how much the price of the valuables which the American killer had carried while traveling in Lahore. I guarantee the value of American’s valuables can’t counted by anyone more than three man’s lives. Courts and investigation teams must play their fair role.Recommend

  • Aftab Kenneth Wilson
    Jan 30, 2011 - 9:02AM

    @Saira: You have come up with a very balanced approach on this episode, specially last para. It has now taken another dimension where both religious and like minded want to get it cashed for their own designs. Media is also playing rough with this tedious situation with lot of twists. Elements in Punjab are more eager for some extra mileage and their law minister is openly asking for Aafia’s release and it has also been reported that the sister of Aafia personally went to the house of deceased, for what, can easily be translated. I prefer that things must be seen purely from legal point of view with no hidden programs.Recommend

  • usman
    Jan 30, 2011 - 10:19AM

    Bravo to him who did what was right for him to do.Now a days nobody is safe in this country.Those were the robbers and they deserved that.What if they had caught him they would have killed him just those who got killed in Sialkot.Those boys were not American but they killed their own men.So, he shot them to save himself and he did right.Recommend

  • Shehzad Leghari
    Jan 30, 2011 - 10:33AM

    He is under arrest and being tried in court. The problem is we are signatory to Vienna convention and if he is proved to be a diplomat he goes free. I need not mention here that he is not a diplomat, the ID he was carrying shows him to be Mr. Davis who does not have diplomatic status in Foreign office record. US embassy is now claiming that he is a diplomat and not revealing his identity. It is beyond doubt that they are lying. It is the name the man drives around with and US embassy concealment of facts is a problem, his origins and his circumstances are a problem. He was carrying sophisticated weapons, apparently without lawful authority is a problem, his failed attempted rescue is a problem, his rescue SUV running over and killing some one is a problem. US consulate’s not producing the SUV occupants and driver for questioning is a problem.

    Now there are following diplomatic scenarios.

    Although diplomats have immunity against any crime, their native country can and should wave off the immunity on ethical grounds in this type of case. They can plead self defence and let the justice take its course. It is in best interest of US to let go of the EGO and let the case follow its course. This is in the best interest of every one. This may lift US’s moral stature in people’s mind. But they are egoistic and are trying other way. They know it was not self defence.
    Our government should hand him over to Americans per diplomatic norms BUT expel US diplomats and call back their diplomats from US. This is what a sovereign country should do. Are we a sovereign country? Let us be.
    I hope we follow Tunisia and Egypt in a domino effect and let this be a trigger if our Government fails us again.
    Recommend

  • Waqas Ahmed
    Jan 30, 2011 - 10:37AM

    This case is a simple test of our so called independent judiciary, whether they react like our corrupt politicians or whether they uphold justice … If Americans, can punish Afia 86 years of imprisonment on an incident in which no american got hurt, infact it was Aafia who got bullet wound… then how come Pakistan will free these Americans,,who have killed innocent citizens of Pakistan… Pakistani Police is bringing… False cases against the deceased.. just to save their masters. Recommend

  • anila
    Jan 30, 2011 - 11:52AM

    guys, somehow american govt will b successful to releasedda damned diplomat but while da ball is in our court we can atleast ask aafia in his return, we just need some sincere people to think and make da most of da situationRecommend

  • Jan 30, 2011 - 4:37PM

    Only thing that can save Davis is presidential pardon from President of Pakistan

    Raymond Davis could only be saved from the long arm of the law if the president pardons him after the due process is completed, experts of international law say.Recommend

  • aman ullah advocate
    Jan 30, 2011 - 4:46PM

    its very shamfull for us that our poloice immedialtely after the incident stated in favour of american without investigation, punjab police played the role of US police.our sister affia is convicted just on the accusition of firing on americans, and now americans are demanding for safe deparature of killer.if govt does that nation will go up because we have alredy inflicted many wounds from americans. do justice if there is no justice,the name of nations become the part of words but not Recommend

  • Syed Farrukh Hussain Shah
    Jan 30, 2011 - 4:50PM

    These americans are real terrorists….they have made the whole world a hell….how have given authority to americans to kill anyone on any ground?????

    By the way, i dont know why Pakistani media doen’st give a serious coverage to this issue…no politicans is talking about……especially Government of Punjab…shreef brothers…why they are not clarifying their opinion and why they are not condemning this act of killing openly????

    Lets see during the custody of americans in Pakistan, there will b any drone attack or not……………….Recommend

  • Sulaiman Malik
    Jan 30, 2011 - 11:37PM

    @pakpinoy: your opinion is relevant but what you were doing here for 10 years is also relevant. Please share that with us.

    About gun culture, frontier and Lahore are very different. Diplomats are not allowed to carry guns or driver cars with local number plates. Why do you think he photographed the two people he shot??Recommend

  • Shehzad Leghari
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:14AM

    what an idiotic commentRecommend

  • pakpinoy
    Jan 31, 2011 - 2:56AM

    @Sulaiman Malik:
    I’m tempted not to even address your reference to what I was doing in your country — I mean, could you imagine if I asked the same of you if you were in the US?…and sort of implied that you were up to no good or there with mixed motives?..but it’s not my nature to assume the worst about people, so I don’t assume this about you or any other. Yet I know the mentality of many, if not most, is to create a “conspiracy” out of everything and view everyone’s motives with suspicion — which I might add is one sad way to view the world. But having lived and interacted with thousands of people during my years there, I fully understand why most have this very pessimistic view of the world around them.

    So to answer your inquiry as to my work there, I invested in building a successful business in your country — 100% private with no connection to any government whatsoever. I’ve employed hundreds of your countrymen over the years and still have offices and projects in several cities there with no plans to scale down anytime soon, as long as it’s up to me. I’ve been advised to shift most of my project work to other countries for years due to the extremely volatile situation, but I have a deep place in my heart for your people and especially the Pathans, among whom I have many friends who would readily defend me with their lives. I hope my credentials are worthy of respect.

    Back to the relevant topic, there are so many variant stories circulating now that the only way you can claim to know what really went down is to have preconceived ideas and then find articles and reports to support those notions. The unfortunate state of the Pakistani press is a high tendency to print unfounded, single source or even “rumor-like” information without following investigative journalistic integrity to actually piece together the entire and accurate story. I’ve never known if this is mostly professional incompetence or laziness or simply the lack of intellectual honesty (or freedom perhaps) to pursue the story from an unbiased, impartial “truth at all costs” perspective.

    My advice is to let the story unfold and certainly if the local press doesn’t do their homework, then at least some competent investigative reporter in the foreign press will. I have no problem crying for justice, but I would advise all to choose one’s battles carefully.

    How many times must a nation and its people face self-induced humiliation before they will learn to think before reacting, understand before judging and condemning, choose humility before honor, search for the truth before finding oneself defending what’s false and despicable??Recommend

  • saam
    Jan 31, 2011 - 4:50AM

    @Abidi:
    Would that you or your brother/son were the victim of your beloved DavidRecommend

  • Nadia
    Jan 31, 2011 - 4:59AM

    when are u people going to realise that you are living in a corrupt country and your own leaders are selling your souls to the farangis – and get money for doing it!!Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:33PM

    @Mir Jaffar:
    Your call for better English depicts your slavish portrait.
    Lets not bother about foreign languages too much; the real thing is that we should speak our national & mother tongue properly, which unfortunately most of us esp youngsters lack.Recommend

  • Noor
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:42PM

    Foreign media reporting about the dead as criminals should be sued by our SC for billions of US$. They’re interfering and giving extra judicial remarks, just to please uncle tom.
    they should rather appreciate the patience of our mob, for not giving the accussed a thorough beating, which I’m sure he won’t have sustained.Recommend

  • Iftikhar-ur-Rehman
    Jan 31, 2011 - 1:58PM

    @Waqqas Iftikhar:
    You do that and you will be arrested and punished but Davis is an American and Americans are are the masters of our political leadershipRecommend

  • Sonam Malik
    Feb 1, 2011 - 4:32AM

    @Sameer:
    Are you American?Recommend

  • Sonam Malik
    Feb 1, 2011 - 4:35AM

    @usman:
    Please think before utter or write comments.Recommend

  • Sonam Malik
    Feb 1, 2011 - 4:39AM

    @NIDA:
    The punishment of American Criminal can be ended by the presidential pardon then who after this can end up the punishment of president her in Pakistan. Recommend

  • ANJUM
    Feb 1, 2011 - 1:10PM

    the american kill us by firing through drones, and its there wright

    they regularly kill people in road traffic accidents in america and now in our homeland and now they openly shoot people.
    but still they are the good guys. we are muslims we all are criminal/terrorist, that is just because we r away from our ISLAM and the time untill we do not start trusting on almighty ALLAH we will remain same and everyone will come to geovern to us
    my reqest to the leader PLEASE TRUST ON ALLAH INSTEAD OF TRUSTING AMERICA Recommend

  • Asiya-Freedom
    Feb 1, 2011 - 6:51PM

    Pakistan is the most unsafe place in the world.
    He would have scared more, somebody might kidnap or kill him.
    Because many times it happens in pakistan kidnapping foreigners by the terrorists.
    Its all happened because of fear.
    Terrorists created fear about Islam and Muslims and bringing bad name.
    They should show pateince, and rightful way they need to convey their feelings.
    This is one of the incident of their indirect effect.Recommend

  • Sulaiman Malik
    Feb 1, 2011 - 6:58PM

    @pakpinoy: I have been in the US and a friend was questioned by FBI right after 9/11 just because he was studying chemical engineering. You have mentioned how many jobs your business here created but not exactly what the business is. I have deep respect for the credentials of any Pathan who would defend a friend with his life. :)
    Regarding investigative journalism, Dawn has produced the scans of Raymond’s non-diplomatic passport and the business visa he had, so there is no question of immunity. You have also failed to answer the question regarding why Raymond was filming the dead. Also, the other car and driver need to be handed over to authorities because there was no case for self-defense and it was clearly manslaughter. Recommend

  • SA
    Feb 2, 2011 - 4:57PM

    @Sulaiman Malik: Probabaly to upload the photos on facebook! Bullocks! Very daring of you to question an american though ;)Recommend

  • Ibtesam ul Asad Khan
    Feb 2, 2011 - 8:45PM

    Men in self defence won’t run after the incidentRecommend

  • yasser shah
    Feb 7, 2011 - 10:18AM

    this is preposterous. US has given absolute no justification on Dr. Afia case. they never apologized for bombing half of our north. we have no say over there matters interfering into ours IN pakistan; i have seen american embassy’s cars cross mid punjab; the likes of gujrat and gujranwala. if they are not threatened there; what on earth could have been the threat to that man in lahore. if there was a potential threat; he would be fired at; not lingered around him to suspect them. he was traveling a very busy road. if he was the target; there wouldn’t have been much problem. if he was too scared to roam around and was under a fit that every one was trying to kill him than he should have stayed put that is IF he killed them unintentionally?? i believe that is the question Recommend

  • hus
    Feb 9, 2011 - 2:09PM

    If you all are bothered about a US national killing two pakistani’s in self defense, you should also be bothered about the innocent people being killed by the so called Martyrs. In a country where there are many anti-americans, anyone on the spot would not wait and judge if the motorists have come to rob or kill or just an accident.. Why would the American kill those motorists? Since it was not a planned attack, it should definitely be on the basis of self defense which he would have exercised out of fear when two people confront him on a busy road. .. And many in the country are trying to politicize this event without understanding the underlying reason.. Well, now the biggest head ache is for the leaders of the country to justify between its own people and the external world!! Recommend

  • Suleman
    Feb 9, 2011 - 4:35PM

    i am not from Pakistan but definitely, i am very sorry about this incident. I was suprised when i read all these discussions. This person is so brave to kill two Pakistanis in their land. whatever the other two people who were killed there is no room for discussion and needed to be punish by Pakistani rules, otherwise, it will disturb all the peoples conscious a lot.Recommend

  • yasser
    Feb 10, 2011 - 4:36PM

    @hus:
    hey hus; i recommended a thing a for you that is if you’re a pakistani. first of all, this conception or any other stating that people of pakistan are extreme in their actions is soo false that it literally blows my head off. do u call these people extreme in negative emotions; these people who are servants to tyrants and countless political torments. the extremeness “buddy” that you see in media is all political propagandas to support their cause. you want to comment about the pakistans bud; you step down from your luxurious cruise and talk positively to the people in small streets and the masses of rural low class or middle class. you judge them like a honest guy and you would find that they would even welcome an american if he/she shows the same attitude. you have to say what’s right. you may be dumbfounded by their policies which i know i am; my best friend was an american; one of my favourite personalities is american but you gotta say right to whats right Recommend

  • rana imran khan
    Feb 17, 2011 - 7:06AM

    If, Raymond is released, its no matter of trouble, but just, only cost, give boost to jihadis, killing of hundreds usa soliders, uncountable financial loss to usa, thousands new recruiters readily available to Taliban and Jihadist. Pakistani army and govt, shall lost control on more areas, USA interest shall destroyed………. Nothing moreRecommend

  • Shaikh Muhammad Danish
    Feb 19, 2011 - 12:16PM

    Our peoples use to do a lost of things but either it normally happen to loose their confidence whiles they were facing irregularities which is frictionally beyond their control. Raymond had killed almost three Muslim Pakistan brothers on their mother land with in the huge crowded area and no one could have been blow-up with the courage to kill Raymond on the spot, then no question would be getting later the whole nation in trouble.
    You might be getting unpredictable news in future, Raymond will out from the scene, and media quite for ever, politicians sold out their slogan, And two years later no ppp in the government. And no resolution toward better for the nation. Just bookish as what have showed slogan in the entire area of Pakistan. Recommend

  • rana imran
    Feb 20, 2011 - 12:26AM

    If, rented killer, Raymond is Diplomate, then why he was carrying UNO banned weapons and killed the two were innocent and just was going to warn the rented killer Raymond, why rented killer Raymond was siding the both killed persons?

    It, is also noted that this man hold fake documents for belonging to Lahore, Islamabad and Peshwar Consulates of United States of America, weapons banned by united nations to use against human and animal and the used weapon left zero chance of life for victims.

    More ever, no immunity documents were show, yet by USA, to clear that rented killer was a diplomate. Diplomate list, provided by USA on 25 January, hold no Names of Rented Killer Raymond.

    Many more questions but who shall answer?

    We, need to know that Raymond is a rented killer, hired by USA to kill innocents in Pakistan.Recommend

  • j r
    Mar 4, 2011 - 9:31PM

    @Aown Kazmi:
    Thank you for your comment. We need people to continue to communicate what actually goes on in their part of the world. Your perspective as a resident of the locale in this story is invaluable. This is a huge story, especially since the men killed in the shooting were operatives themselves. It has the potential to expose the true machinations of this war, which has been built upon deceit from moment one and from ground zero.Recommend

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