Rape cases: DNA tests not admissible as main evidence says CII

Published: May 30, 2013

“We agree that the blasphemy law should stay, but its wrong use by anyone, Muslim or Non-Muslim, must not be allowed,” says Ashrafi. PHOTO: INP

ISLAMABAD: 

Until now, police have relied heavily on DNA tests to determine cases of rape. The Council of Islamic Ideology (CII), however, has declared that DNA tests are not admissible as the main evidence in rape cases.

In a meeting of the council on Wednesday, religious scholars observed that while the tool could aid investigation into rape complaints, it could not be taken as evidence. It could, at best, serve as supplementary evidence but could not supersede the Islamic laws laid out for determining rape complaints.

“It cannot be treated as main evidence but it certainly is a great help in investigations,” said Allama Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi, a member of CII present at the meeting chaired by Senator Maulana Muhammad Khan Sherani. The Quranic provisions calling for four witnesses would still be required as evidence in such cases, the scholars maintained.

The observation was made in response to queries sent to the council by different courts regarding the status of DNA tests as evidence in rape case. The standard police practice has been to register rape cases only after obtaining DNA test results and presenting the report before the court as the main evidence.

In any legal proceedings, decisions are made on the basis of the main evidence produced. Supplementary evidence, meanwhile, is considered to be circumstantial.

CII has also opposed any amendments to blasphemy law. The scholars observed, however, that the law’s wrong usage must be prevented.

“We agree that the blasphemy law should stay, but its wrong use by anyone, Muslim or Non-Muslim, must not be allowed,” said Ashrafi said. “Islam is a religion of peace and harmony which does not approve of use of force against innocent,” he added.

Eid moon-sighting

Taking notice of differences between the Markazi Ruet-e-Hilal Committee (Central Moon-Sighting Committee) and the public and private moon-sighting committees of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, CII decided to call a ‘consultative meeting’.

All stakeholders, including the central and the K-P provincial committees, religious scholars and officials of the ministry for religious affairs would be invited to participate in the meeting that would discuss and debate the origins of the differences over the matter.

“It is certainly not a problem related to religion… rather it is a personal matter. So the meeting would try to sort out problems and create harmony among all moon-sighting committees,” said Ashrafi.

The council also expressed concern at the alleged removal of Islamic content and content pertaining to the ideology of Pakistan from school textbooks in Punjab. The CII directed that the old syllabus, which includes chapters on the ‘glorious past of Muslims’, ideology of Pakistan, the two-nation theory and the life of Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh), be restored. The council directed its research wing to write to all provinces and demand copies of textbooks for review.

The CII meeting also decided to further study whether cloning humans is Islamic or not. A decision or recommendation is likely to be given at its next meeting in July.

Published in The Express Tribune, May 30th, 2013.

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Reader Comments (121)

  • gp65
    May 30, 2013 - 3:23AM

    “The Quranic provisions calling for four witnesses would still be required as evidence in such cases, the scholars maintained.”

    The only time this would be available if a girl was gangraped by a gang of 5 or more and the rapists testified against each other. This edict is regressive and would serve no purpose other than driving down the reporting of rape and driving up the occurrence of rape by emboldening the men that there would be no consequences, since the woman cannot prove the crime.

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  • Xulfjan
    May 30, 2013 - 3:25AM

    Thanks for making Islam irrelevant for the future generations!!

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  • PakArmySoldier
    May 30, 2013 - 3:31AM

    What rubbish! Who made these people the gatekeepers of Islam? These mullahs represent an existential threat to Pakistan.

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  • Marium
    May 30, 2013 - 3:36AM

    As a woman I am appalled by this!! If someone was to rape me he will not do so in the presence of 4 other people! When these rules were established DNA was not in the picture but now it’ is the only thing you need to convict a rapist.
    DNA test is not a ‘supplementary evidence’.. It is THE ONLY evidence you need.
    They think DNA test is ‘circumstantial’? Really?? I mean for real?
    I just fail to understand how these people think!

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  • Alucard
    May 30, 2013 - 3:39AM

    Jahalat. These people are only fit to live in the 7th century.

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  • AB
    May 30, 2013 - 3:41AM

    Welcome back to the stone ages…. Are these mullah for real???

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  • MOA
    May 30, 2013 - 4:18AM

    The world keeps moving forward and we keep regressing. Sigh !!

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  • Rana Gulabi
    May 30, 2013 - 4:25AM

    There is a scientific reasoning behind this because DNA can be extracted from common daily use items such as combs, clothes, etc. with the help of commonly available laboratory equipment and then could be planted anywhere to mislead the medical staff doing the medical report. A woman who wants to seek revenge from an ex-husband could do this to ruin a man’s life.

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  • Raza
    May 30, 2013 - 5:37AM

    DNA testing takes place all over the world; it may not be ideal, but its better than doing nothing and letting women be raped, and have no justice coz hey 4 witnesses werent there. Talk about twisting the Sharia; the 4 witness rule applies to adultery when one party is making an allegation upon person indulging in adultery. Rape is NOT just adultery; it is a heinous crime not just having the element of adultery but also wronging an innocent, who is a victim. Recommend

  • Akif
    May 30, 2013 - 5:38AM

    Islam is not the religion of 7th century or stonage but the basic principles require adherence. I would like to bring attention of people towards instances where some girl might do sex at her own will and later on convict the boy with a rape case. So in that case the DNA test will certify that it was done with or without consent?

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  • R Singh
    May 30, 2013 - 5:42AM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    Sir, I am ashamed to share this planet with you.

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  • Farhan
    May 30, 2013 - 6:16AM

    What crap ! Lets just stick to 4 men of cloth as witness…..salam hai ji …wah ! Can let a penal system govern land of the pure. .enough of this sharia law. You want it move to KSA etc.

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  • Umer
    May 30, 2013 - 6:17AM

    @Akif:

    So in that case the DNA test will certify that it was done with or without consent?

    DNA would certainly prove that sex did take place, whether with consent or not is for judge to decide based on other evidence. You are mixing two separate issues; a) if the act did place, and b) if it took place with consent or not.

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  • naeem
    May 30, 2013 - 6:27AM

    Four witnesses required only when HADD is to be imposed as Islamic injunctions. However presently in rape cases only statement of victim is sufficient. DNA no doubt is scientific method to connect the accused with the crime but it may be negative and in this way we can say that it is not only evidence of rape. I recommend DNA in every rape case, especially in gang rape. Our mullahs must learn modern science and should be progressive.

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  • @Rana and Raza
    May 30, 2013 - 6:34AM

    Thats one point, so in order to avoid women misusing this DNA testing thing, lets go ahead and leave the 4 witness thing so that men can RAPE women and then never get caught, yes by all means let the MEN misuse a law rather then a woman…

    Please, stop living in the dark ages, YES it can be misused by women to convict a man, but then the same applies for the 4 witness rule, it can be misused too.

    Apart from that, DNA testing is one thing, there are also other methods as checking the women abdomen tissue for tears and stress marks which sometimes are consistent with RAPE. So please, think about it from a modern approach…DNA test can only be misused in extremely rare situations, there are other tests too, read up on it. Use GOOGLE.

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  • Anon
    May 30, 2013 - 6:35AM

    @Rana and Raza

    Thats one point, so in order to avoid women misusing this DNA testing thing, lets go ahead and leave the 4 witness thing so that men can RAPE women and then never get caught, yes by all means let the MEN misuse a law rather then a woman…

    Please, stop living in the dark ages, YES it can be misused by women to convict a man, but then the same applies for the 4 witness rule, it can be misused too.

    Apart from that, DNA testing is one thing, there are also other methods as checking the women abdomen tissue for tears and stress marks which sometimes are consistent with RAPE. So please, think about it from a modern approach…DNA test can only be misused in extremely rare situations, there are other tests too, read up on it. Use GOOGLE.

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  • jibran
    May 30, 2013 - 6:39AM

    What if a 3 or 4 year child is raped? Shame on these mullahs!

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  • jibran
    May 30, 2013 - 6:43AM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    A woman who wants to seek revenge from an ex-husband could do this to ruin a man’s life.

    First, amen for protecting the life of the ex-husbands. Second, I guess what you suggest can’t be done by 4 fake witnesses. I have all the praise for the brilliance of your logic.

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  • omar
    May 30, 2013 - 6:52AM

    reason is simple…they dont want the power centre to move from clergy into science..power corrupts and you know the rest of it….!

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  • Raj - USA
    May 30, 2013 - 6:53AM

    @Raza:
    EXCELLENT POINT AND A VERY LOGICAL EXPLANATION. Learnt something new today and thank you for educating everyone on proper interpretation of Quranic laws.

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  • RealMuslim
    May 30, 2013 - 7:03AM

    @Rana Gulabi,

    That is incorrect. DNA along with evidence proof that the DNA came from sexual fluid like semenbis considered as true genetic evidence. DNA of a hair strand is easily distinguished from DNA of semen. Next time, please do your research before shooting your mouth off.

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  • RealMuslim
    May 30, 2013 - 7:07AM

    @Akif,

    You bring up a good point. But it is easy to avoid for men BY STAYING AWAY FROM BEING ALONE WITH WOMEN THAT ARE NOT MAHRAM TO THEM!!! Hellooooo, that’s pretty rudimentary, no???

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  • American
    May 30, 2013 - 7:20AM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    It is not practical for someone to extract DNA and “plant” it. You will not be able to do it.
    The DNA that is useful in Rape cases is the DNA that is left behind by semen, sweat, saliva, and skin cells of the rapist (usually found under the nails of the victim that may be resisting and fighting the rapist).
    The Mullah’s objection is not how scientific or accurate or not DNA evidence is.
    Their objection is purely religious…there is no mention of DNA in Islamic Jurisprudence.
    Neither Islam, nor Pakistanis have moved forward from the 7th century desert tribal customs and beliefs.
    Perhaps they will live happily after Pakistan becomes a desert…in about 50 years.

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  • Raj - USA
    May 30, 2013 - 7:24AM

    @Akif:
    “Islam is not the religion of 7th century or stonage but the basic principles require adherence. I would like to bring attention of people towards instances where some girl might do sex at her own will and later on convict the boy with a rape case. So in that case the DNA test will certify that it was done with or without consent?”

    As far as I know Islam does not allow any sex outside marriage, even consensual sex.
    Any sexual activity outside marriage is a punishable crime (stoning to death) for both boy and the girl.

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  • Luciferous
    May 30, 2013 - 7:28AM

    “The Quranic provisions calling for four witnesses would still be required as evidence in such cases, the scholars maintained.”

    Can someone explain difference between “rape” and “adultery” to this self styled “allama?”
    Four witness rule applies to adultery not to rape, which is sexual violence Mr. “allam!”

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  • Luciferous
    May 30, 2013 - 7:36AM

    Don’t mean to be crass but someone should ask this fellow “The Jimmy Carter” test question!
    This “allama” fellow is geneticist, lawyer, prosecutor, judge and much more all rolled in one!

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  • kanwal
    May 30, 2013 - 7:46AM

    @rana gulabi
    I hope these molanas dont know only as much as you seem to bcoz your reasoning clearly shows that you have no idea what forensic science is all about.

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  • Amir
    May 30, 2013 - 7:54AM

    Well in the past we travelled for pilgrimage by walking or on camels. That should now be restored.

    Yes it says 4-witnesses:

    1/ Can we call the woman being raped a witness?
    2/ The forensic expert who lifted the DNA from the exposed site.
    3/ The person who examined the accused, and tested his DNA against the sample,
    4/ How about semen itself? Isnt that a living organism.

    Simplistic but debatable?

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  • US
    May 30, 2013 - 7:55AM

    @Akif – DNA testing is commonly used throughout much of the world. As it is with any other crime, there are ways to to try and establish what course of events took place. If the attacker has wounds inflicted on him that would be consistent with a woman resisting assault, then that could be an indication that the sex was not consensual. There are loads of other things that could help the investigators determine what happened. In any case, with the stigma that rape victims carry in our society, what woman in her right mind would scream rape unnecessarily? And please don’t pick out some random news story with such an event. It’s still HIGHLY unlikely.

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  • Aaliya
    May 30, 2013 - 7:57AM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    @Akif:
    Both of you are mentioning the few instances that MIGHT happen. But rape DOES happen. It happens everyday and everyday the rapists are free to roam around looking for the next victim.

    Your worried about That poor guy who might get framed by his ex wife or some girl who willingly had sex with him. But what about those hundreds of poor girls who fall victim to this horrible crime everyday?!

    Ashamed to read both of your comments.

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  • Nadeem
    May 30, 2013 - 8:13AM

    @ R Singh,
    What has Rana said that has offended you so much?
    He is providing you with a reason which is valid. If you think otherwise, prove him wrong. If still you have your doubts, Venus would be a suitable planet for you.

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  • Humanity
    May 30, 2013 - 8:24AM

    @Akif:
    @Rana Gulabi

    Please seek professional help. You make humanity sick.

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  • Naeem Khan Manhattan,Ks
    May 30, 2013 - 8:25AM

    .Where in the world a poor girl who is raped is going to produce 4 witnesses, it could have been possible 1,500 years ago which is doubtful even then but we are living in the 21st century, people are trying to reach mars now and perhaps beyond and we are still stuck in the past.I thought that our religion Islam encouraged us to go travel in pursuit of knowledge, and DNA discovery is knowledge, DNA evidence is the greatest tool human kind could develop to punish the rapists. Why the courts are even asking these people for their opinion, these are the same very people who denied that man ever landed on the moon and they don’t believe educating female population which is almost half the Pakistan’s population.

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  • Mirza
    May 30, 2013 - 8:29AM

    The world may change and well into 21st century. We refuse to move let alone march ahead.

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  • Farheen
    May 30, 2013 - 8:56AM

    There have been cases with fake DNA evidence; for example, case of John Schneeberger, who planted fake evidence. Later, his step daughter came forward and he was convicted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Schneeberger Therefore, DNA evidence can be circumstantial, and should be considered, but should not be the only evidence to convict someone. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/161079.php

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  • Vivek
    May 30, 2013 - 9:00AM

    @Raza

    Interesting. Why 4? When you select an even number of witlessness, then each of them can contradict each other. Hence the whole testimony is nullified. What happens then ?

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  • SKChadha
    May 30, 2013 - 9:02AM

    CII is correct in its prescription …. DNA test can’t be primary evidence of Rape in Pakistan.

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  • Ali Hamza
    May 30, 2013 - 9:14AM

    I thought we left the caves for some time now

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  • citizen
    May 30, 2013 - 9:15AM

    i am appalled as a woman . I wish i could get hold of these mullah’s and give them a piece of my mind.

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  • mir
    May 30, 2013 - 9:22AM

    @rana ghulabi. Please find out what DNA means and how accurate it is. For rape kits DNA evidence is taken off semen. Not hair and other things.

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  • Shahryar Ahmed
    May 30, 2013 - 9:29AM

    OMG!!! Really Shameful!!!

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  • Questioner
    May 30, 2013 - 9:43AM

    Akif, there are two separate points (1) proof of sexual assault (2) proof of sexual assault by a person ‘A’. DNA is of value in case (2) only after the case (1) has been proved. Without the proof of (1), DNA evidence has no legal value in assault cases.

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  • SK
    May 30, 2013 - 9:44AM

    This CCI type bodies MUST be disbanded immediately to avoid such crap- these mullahs have their own vested interest and will kill real face of IslamRecommend

  • MG
    May 30, 2013 - 9:46AM

    @ Akif, do you really think that DNA (sperm) would be the only evidence available in case of a rape, what about vaginal tear and other indicators of force? You won’t have tears and other telltale signs in case of consensual sex, would you? DNA is not the only evidence used to fix the rape charges, but it is one of the most definite evidence when other signs are there.

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  • Blush
    May 30, 2013 - 9:48AM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    An “ex” husband can not have it consensual, and with DNA samples you do observe the tearing and other damage that can be caused by rape. So wake up. These Mullahs should know what they are talking about, sad world we live in.

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  • Observer
    May 30, 2013 - 9:50AM

    “The Quranic provisions calling for four witnesses would still be required as evidence in such cases, the scholars maintained.”

    The scholars are right but omit some very important qualifications on the needed witnesses. The witnesses have to be all male and pious Muslims.

    Does one need more proof why Muslim countries and societies are backward and keep regressing back to stone age?

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  • Raj - USA
    May 30, 2013 - 9:50AM

    No other religion gets that much abused by its own scholars and its own religious leaders as Islam.

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  • Bluh
    May 30, 2013 - 9:54AM

    @Akif:
    The tests that indicate rape aren’t only DNA tests, to rule it out as consensual, there is an extensive medical examination that looks much deeper, with the damage caused by the inter course itself. Please read up then give your views! you will make a wonderful future Mullah. I am a woman and this really saddens me. Recommend

  • MKhan
    May 30, 2013 - 9:57AM

    The problem is that people have decided that the wilful act of adultery by two or more consenting adults is the same thing as rape. As long as our brethren in the enlightened fraternity (people we, these days, call maulvis) believe that these two acts are the same, we will keep having such edicts.

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  • Imran Hussain
    May 30, 2013 - 9:59AM

    Do we still need to prove that “Islam is THE way.”

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  • Humayun
    May 30, 2013 - 9:59AM

    And then muslims complain “why the whole world hates us, we are the most reasonable people on this planet”

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  • RM
    May 30, 2013 - 10:09AM

    Remember someone threatened to bomb us to stone age. They really don’t need to bother. We are already doing it ourselves and very happy in living in stone age.

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  • Fan
    May 30, 2013 - 10:14AM

    Its not about religion, its about the evolution of the society. In European countries before the 70′s, men were overly privileged in all aspects like in Pakistan, and rape wasnt even consider a crime, the blame was always put on the victims and very few rapes were reported to the police. It asked years of efforts for the feminists, the human right’s activists and the progressists to get a fair treatment for victims. I think Pakistan can reach this, but its the duty of the new generations to fight for that.

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  • Rumormoger
    May 30, 2013 - 10:15AM

    What If a crime is committed and the criminal dropped is CNIC at the crime scene? Will the criminal not be convicted. DNA evidence is like this. However, the CNIC can be planted by someone, but DNA evidence cannot be, specially in rape cases. If there is someone’s DNA inside someone elses body, it had to rape or consensual interaction. If rape is established, then DNA evidence is the only fact to link someone to the crime.

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  • A J Khan
    May 30, 2013 - 10:17AM

    In first place is there any need for this Council when Patliament is there to enact Laws.
    Is it not supra constitutional?
    Why is there band always against Justice with Women?
    Why should a gang of unelected people decide the fate of 200 million people?
    Will the Supreme Court of Pakistan take action against the CCI

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  • Enough...!
    May 30, 2013 - 10:17AM

    Council of Islamic Ideology
    its existence alone tells you a lot about the condition of muslims

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  • hammerman
    May 30, 2013 - 10:22AM

    @Rana Gulabi: and what makes one think that the witnesses that testify are also NOT lying to set up the husband of the alleged victim? forensic science is an extremely progressive and technical field. DNA sample to prove rape is not taken from a comb (unless that was used for penetration).

    My God! Ignorance is something to be ashamed of but you and the mullahs seems to flaunt it like it were a gift from God.

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  • pakistani
    May 30, 2013 - 10:23AM

    DNA test is circumstantial…only spectators and voyeurs can testify….they’ve finally lost it

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  • Roxee
    May 30, 2013 - 10:39AM

    Dna evidence should be collected as soon as possible after the rape is reported. The sample should be collected by a medical person. The police should follow chain of evidence rules when transporting the sample to the lab for DNA analysis and then to a secure place to await the trial of anyone who might be found and charged with the crime. Other evidence such as visible trauma to the part of the body raped and the presence of injuries to other parts of the body should be photographed and kept as evidence.
    It is silly to claim DNA is not useful as evidence in rape cases. What about strangers who rape and deny meeting the victim. Pakistan needs to stop being so theocratic so that people can have all the benefits of science and technology.

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  • ali
    May 30, 2013 - 10:49AM

    You can’t introduce islamic laws in a country where 90% of the population doesn’t even understand the meaning of the arabic text they recite while praying.

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  • Yuri Kondratyuk
    May 30, 2013 - 10:51AM

    Logically, if god is true, then truth must be no different from god. Denying truth is tantamount to denying god. Any religion that cannot accommodate truth or prefers falsehood over it, is a false religion.

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  • Yuri Kondratyuk
    May 30, 2013 - 10:57AM

    @Raza:

    Rape is NOT just adultery

    So, rape is still adultery among other things? Sir, aren’t you ashamed of yourself?

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  • May 30, 2013 - 10:58AM

    It shames me to say this, but If a rape/gang rape of a woman by a person or three to five persons takes place, who will come forward to give honest evidence? With the exception of a minority, where are the honest persons in our society?
    What has happened to all the cases of murder, corruption and rape reported in the press? Are the law enforcing agencies educated and competent enough to handle these tough cases? There must be a way out of this imbroglio and the Council of Islamic Ideology must come up with a further explanation supported by cogent answers. In fact, it must be recorded in the minutes of their meeting and reported in detail in the press. Salams

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  • Yuri Kondratyuk
    May 30, 2013 - 11:00AM

    The CII meeting also decided to
    further study whether cloning humans
    is Islamic or not. A decision or
    recommendation is likely to be given
    at its next meeting in July.

    And I am waiting with bated breath.

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  • MZAK
    May 30, 2013 - 11:06AM

    @Rana Gulabi:

    I beg to differ! As a scientist I can tell you that is false; the DNA in the semen is different to put it in layman terms. It only has half the number of chromosomes as compared to DNA collected from other body calls such as hair or skin! Plus DNA isn’t like a usb stick sir. It matters ‘where’ it is collected from, any forensic scientist would be able to tell you that where it came from! Also an average person cannot collect DNA with out proper scientific equipment. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding a little bit about the subject!

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  • Lala Gee
    May 30, 2013 - 11:08AM

    @Marium:

    “DNA test is not a ‘supplementary evidence’.. It is THE ONLY evidence you need.”

    While I certainly do not concur with CII, here are couple of scenarios where just a positive DNA test is definitely not a conclusive evidence of rape.

    1- Consentual relationship gone bad and later reported as rape.
    2- Failure in securing money, or benefits, or, in some cases, marriage in a lured relationship.
    3- Marital relations gone bad and reported rape.

    And, by the way, what test would be needed by men in case of forced sex by women?

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  • Adeel
    May 30, 2013 - 12:27PM

    The best and logical option is to go and converse with the council rather than bad mouth them here. This seems to be a problem with most people in our country that they want to pass judgment about others without getting the facts in front of them.

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  • Lala Gee
    May 30, 2013 - 12:33PM

    ““It cannot be treated as main evidence but it certainly is a great help in investigations,” said Allama Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi”

    Absolutely right. This aspects has already been proved in a US court of law. Remember, the famous African footballer, O. J. Simpson, case in which he was accused of murdering his white ex-wife. The police found (or planted) his DNA at the crime scene. Despite that, the jury acquitted O.J. as they found many procedural and behavioral shortcomings of the police officers in the collection and processing of DNA samples. So, merely the presence of DNA is not an absolute proof of the crime by the person.

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  • Mj
    May 30, 2013 - 1:35PM

    @citizen:

    “i am appalled as a woman . I wish i could get hold of these mullah’s and give them a piece of my mind.”

    Perhaps the mullahs are a symptom and not the cause. Think on it.

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  • naureen
    May 30, 2013 - 1:40PM

    Why the CII has to start with this issue. dont they have anything better to do. let the courts decide which evidence is relevant or not. all they think is to make Pakistan the worst place for women in all aspects. on top of it they want to introduce Islamiyat as compulsory subject to people who are not even Muslim. thses people have made the lives of minorites so vulnerable. the new government should appoint people who are academics and not fundamentalist to CII and focus on issues to make the lives of Pakistani citizen better.

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  • MoronDetector
    May 30, 2013 - 1:45PM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    Actually I think it applies more to skin samples found from under fingernails from self defence or semen traces.

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  • May 30, 2013 - 3:01PM

    Oh okay.
    so now we need to keep four guys AND a doctor with us at all times in case we get raped and have to prove it.

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  • May 30, 2013 - 3:19PM

    @gp65: ” since the woman cannot prove the crime.”
    – There is more to it . In case women fails to prove rape on her she will be prosecuted for adultery which is punishable to death by stoning ..!!! Now the big question ? who will dare to report rape.

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  • May 30, 2013 - 3:23PM

    Why blame TTP/ Taliban? extremist . ? Maulana is on the same page.

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  • Umer
    May 30, 2013 - 3:29PM

    As soon as PMLN gets in power, Mullahs get a free hand.

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  • Rashid
    May 30, 2013 - 3:56PM

    @Mj

    @citizen:
    ‘Perhaps the mullahs are a symptom and not the cause. Think on it.’

    An advice written in gold. Problem is that while ‘believing’ and ‘following’ come easy on body and mind, ‘thinking’ is hard work.

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  • Yuri Kondratyuk
    May 30, 2013 - 4:09PM

    @Lala Gee:

    Consentual relationship gone bad and
    later reported as rape

    Agreed that DNA only proves the act and not how it’s carried out. But, I fail to see how the clause of having four witnesses is going to help here.

    Also, OJ’s acquittal isn’t a case where DNA evidence was found to be inadequate, rather it’s case where procedures weren’t properly followed. Procedures if properly followed, DNA based evidence is indisputable.

    P.S.: Talking about IQ, I fall in the top 15 percentile of the population. Hope you get the point :-)

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  • Bewildered
    May 30, 2013 - 4:09PM

    @R Singh:

    “Sir, I am ashamed to share this planet with you.”

    But you have no concussions for sharing the same country, or even the same city better known as the world’s capital of rapists. What a hypocritical comment from a member of the world’s most hypocrite nation.

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  • Dilip
    May 30, 2013 - 4:11PM

    The so called “learned” MULLAS are only interpreting what is in the book…..

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  • Surely Sure!!
    May 30, 2013 - 4:54PM

    So sorry…………….

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  • haris
    May 30, 2013 - 5:13PM

    @Alucard:
    I am a man from 7th century and I don’t want to live with them. Take them with you.

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  • HUM
    May 30, 2013 - 5:32PM

    Stupidity knows no bounds. CII would comment on DNA testing but leave all the actual ills of society unnamed because hey the biggest problem is poor men getting arrested for “PLANTED” DNA test. They are sympathic to men that might, in a very distant possibility, get wrongfully convicted but they do not have an iota of sympathy for numerous rape victims.
    Why won’t you leave matters of law and crime investigation to specialists?

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  • Gulam Rasool "Kuldeep sharma"
    May 30, 2013 - 5:35PM

    @Lala Gee
    99.9% you irritate people with your comments, but today you are in remaining 0.1%

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  • Gulam Rasool "Kuldeep sharma"
    May 30, 2013 - 5:38PM

    Criticize me but he is almost 50% right, don’t believe?
    go to this link (only for Indians, Because its in Hindi)
    http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/gurgaon/rape-case-filed-by-live-in-partner/articleshow/20316287.cms

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  • 3rdRockFromTheSun
    May 30, 2013 - 5:44PM

    And meanwhile in Pakistan, as citizens light up their candles, Mehran introduces the latest and best in personal transportation – personalized camels for the rich and mules / donkeys for the middle class; extremely fuel effecient, 40 km per kg of hay!

    So many rich ‘Western’ tourists are nowadays into ‘experiential tourism’ what with the ‘prison hotels – where one can spend one night in a prison to feel what a prisoner feels like’ or the ‘sleep in the urban rough’ tours – where people sleep as the homeless do. You Pakistanis are sitting on a goldmine – Pakistan tourism should market itself as an ’8th Century Destination – Experience the Medieval Times in 3D and HD’!

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  • Lala Gee
    May 30, 2013 - 5:45PM

    @Yuri Kondratyuk:

    “P.S.: Talking about IQ, I fall in the top 15 percentile of the population. Hope you get the point :-)”

    You need to read my comments several times, despite being in straightforward simple language, and then check your objections again. What did I say to the contrary?

    P.S. You don’t have to expose your comprehensions skills falling in the lower 15 percentile just to quench your yearning for proving me wrong.

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  • Yuri Kondratyuk
    May 30, 2013 - 6:29PM

    @Lala Gee:
    I do not dispute the facts you state. I only aver that procedural errors do not negate the fundamental efficacy of a DNA test.

    P.S.: I don’t know what my IQ is. People who gloat about their IQ’s are losers
    - Stephen Hawking
    You have done it at least twice on ET forums. Just wanted to point out the pointlessness of it albeit with some irony.

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  • Xtremist
    May 30, 2013 - 6:58PM

    First things first: No one has any right to disrespect any religion. I am proud of being a muslim and people who are disrespecting Islam in this thread have the same mentality as of the Mufti and Scholars they are targeting.
    If we think that DNA testing with additional tests can help in identifying the culprit then we should right letters to CII and bring this into their notice, not by playing blame games here.
    Following are the contact details so no one can make excuse that he/she didnt knew and sit back and relax:
    Council of Islamic Ideology
    Plot # 46, Ataturk Avenue,
    Sector G-5/2, Islamabad
    Pakistan.
    +92-51-9205652
    +92-51-9217381
    contact@cii.gov.pk

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  • Ahmed
    May 30, 2013 - 7:17PM

    What’s more important? Punishing the rapist or saving an innocent guy who has been accused of rape?

    I think it’s the second one! Anyone woman can accuse anyone of raping her like this. Plus every rape victim does not have a dna sample of the rapist on her or any other evidence of that nature. Punishing an innocent person of rape is a far greater atrocity than letting a rapist go(which offcourse is wrong nontheless).

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  • Jamshed
    May 30, 2013 - 7:25PM

    @Akif:
    Bhai. The problem is that we ARE regressive. Why doesn’t the molvi sahib say that the “bodily” fluids of the man shall be extracted from the victim, shall be tested in DNA lab and 4 people can verify that the “male bodily fluids” extracted fromt he victim match DNA from the alleged attacker?

    The thing is we don’t want to do that. We will turn our face away from the modern world! That is sadly, who we are.

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  • Yuri Kondratyuk
    May 30, 2013 - 7:29PM

    @Xtremist:

    The Quranic provisions calling for
    four witnesses would still be required
    as evidence in such cases, the
    scholars maintained

    That’s precisely what people are protesting against.

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  • Raj - USA
    May 30, 2013 - 7:44PM

    In the past words like “Strategic Depth” & “Supreme National Interest” were in use often. Now the word “Ideology” has been added to this list. Allowing use of this word indiscriminately shall come to haunt Pakistan soon. “Council” as another word that belongs to this group in Pakistan’s context. We saw DPC and now we see CII.

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  • American
    May 30, 2013 - 8:09PM

    @Xtremist:
    What you are saying, in other words:
    – The CII is blind, and ignorant. It cannot see, read, and know what is happening in the world.
    – Their thinking and knowledge stopped in the 7th century..
    – We have to bring to their attention; otherwise, they don’t know what’s happening in the world.
    – But they will pass life and death decisions, even if they don’t know.
    – Usually against women, minorities, shias, ahmedis, hazaras, and anyone who is not part of ‘them’

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  • Zaheer
    May 30, 2013 - 8:28PM

    The rape can’t be undone, even by killing the rapist, we can’t serve the justice. If we believe in Allah and the day of judgement, these arguments seems meaningless or we doubting His justice.

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  • Ahmed
    May 30, 2013 - 8:41PM

    Revelation is above reason.

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  • Ahmed
    May 30, 2013 - 8:44PM

    Revelation is above reason.Recommend

  • observer
    May 30, 2013 - 10:53PM

    Aitum Bums will protect Pakistan against external enemies.

    Who will protect the Pakistanis from CII?

    PS- Does this mean that the rape victim will now be charged with Zina?

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  • May 30, 2013 - 11:08PM

    The Pakistani rape law is a travesty, not Islamic, and an extreme twisted Wahhabi/Deoband ideological interpretation gifted from a collaboration of ignorant Zia-ul-Haq and Saudi/Pak clerics. Shame on them.

    To continue with the produce 4 eye witnesses to prove rape law is simply criminal.

    In Islam that many witnesses were only needed to prove adultery – which was nearly impossible – and hence saved a lot of women from malicious false accusations and slander. The word of a rape victim was generally considered enough to convict and sentence a rapist, which included death penalty.

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  • jack
    May 30, 2013 - 11:37PM

    @Xtremist

    What an irony. Council of Islamic Ideology having their office on Ataturk Avenue!
    Does anybody there know what Ataturk thought about their ideology? I can quote Ataturk verbatim, but that will create a riot on this page.

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  • thauruddin hathodiwala
    May 31, 2013 - 12:43AM

    @Rana Gulabi:
    Your response shows that you are very uninformed as to how dna is obtained during a rape investigation. A ‘rape kit’ is used to determine quite a few things, among which is a swab of the inside of the womans vaginal cavity in order to obtain any traces of semen which is used as the source for DNA. Don’t use the term scientific reasoning like you understand it. If you did you would be for DNA evidence. Yes, there is a small chance that a woman could falsely imply rape in order to get back at a man, but looking at the bigger picture for a moment, how many rapists would DNA evidence put behind bars? How many rapists commit rape within sight of 4 male witnesses? Think logically. I know its hard for you, but try.

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  • Akshay
    May 31, 2013 - 1:24AM

    Actually, these mullahs are correct. If Muslims want Islam in ALL aspects of life, then they are not. But if Muslims want religion as private matter, and public as secular entity where science and common sense must be supreme,then these Mullahs should have no say in jurisprudence. Since Pakistan is a democracy, the choice of secular/religion belongs to the people.

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  • Observer
    May 31, 2013 - 3:32AM

    @Raj – USA:

    “No other religion gets that much abused by its own scholars and its own religious leaders as Islam.”

    Are you sure that the religious leaders are “abusing” Islam? What if they are correct?

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  • Hassan
    May 31, 2013 - 4:33AM

    @Zaheer:
    we can save a lot of women from future rapes by hanging a rapist.

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  • no
    May 31, 2013 - 5:33AM

    @gp65:
    no the 4 witness thing, does not mean that 4 people have to see the rape, just collaberate stories, and say that they saw a person alone and another person following etc
    even in west DNA is just evidence of sex, not rape

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  • Insaan
    May 31, 2013 - 6:38AM

    Even DNA test may not do anything in Pakistan. Police will pick up a different person, beat him up real bad and make him confess that he is the real rapist.

    I read a News in ET today about a 18 yr old girl who was kidnapped and raped by 5 men for few days. Police arrested girl’s 2 uncles and one brother when they went to complain about the rape.

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  • Nakhuda
    May 31, 2013 - 7:28AM

    So a person who will provide testimony against rape will actually be seeing the rape happening in front of his eyes. If he is actually seeing the rape happening then he would be participating in it. Who will have a testimony against rape. Making four people to testify against rape is actually legitimizing rape cause it is almost impossible to get four testimonials against rape. This law is insane and a source of embarrassment for Pakistan. We can not progress as a nation if we live under these Islamic Laws.

    PS: How many rape victims have been brought to justice in Pakistan since last 20 years. Can anyone give stats.

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  • Luciferous
    May 31, 2013 - 9:28AM

    Is this a premptive strike? Is he trying to cover something up?
    Is there a straw in thief’s beard?

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  • gp65
    May 31, 2013 - 9:40AM

    @no: Thank you for the explanation. I certainly learnt something new. And of course you are correct that DNA is evidence of sex not rape. But in Western countries, there is no concept of requiring 4 witnesses, so your comparison goes only so far. The determination of whether there was rape or not is made based on other physical signs such as injury, vaginal tear etc. Moreover in Islam even consensual sex is not permitted between people who are not married and concept of marital rape does not exist. So even if the DNA provides evidence of sex, surely that is enough to convict the man? What am I missing here?

    @bigsaf: Your post was informative and helped me understand why the requirement of 4 witnesses is needed in case of an accusation of adultery. It is still not clear why it has to be 4 Muslim men. Why would the testimony of a woman or a non-Muslim person suffice?

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  • Jeddy
    May 31, 2013 - 11:18AM

    This is Pakistan,, scientific evidence does not apply

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  • Insaan
    May 31, 2013 - 3:20PM

    @Ahmed:
    Punishing an innocent person of rape is a far greater atrocity than letting a rapist go(which offcourse is wrong nontheless).

    Requiring 4 pious Muslim male witnesses who just stand there and just watch penetration up close. is to make sure no man is ever wrongly accused of a sex crime. Best thing is not to convict any MAN of rape to make sure no innocent man is ever accused of rape wrongly.

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  • Sheikh Salman
    May 31, 2013 - 4:30PM

    Misunderstanding has been created here. The four witnesses are there who testify that the girl is from noble family they should be truthful.. It doesn’t mean that 4 person should be present at the time of rape. Clear your mind people. Thats a pity that DNA or Medical Tests should have a say in these cases and the rapist should be stoned to death.

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  • MA
    May 31, 2013 - 5:29PM

    Since proven ineligible to address Islamic & Social issues.
    Why do we rely on Mullahs for Islam ??
    How much time do we have for the religion ?

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  • C. M. Naim
    May 31, 2013 - 8:33PM

    Strictly speaking there is nothing, repeat Nothing, in the Qur’an about rape, i.e., sexual violence against a non-consenting woman. It speaks only about adultery, which was allegedly made hard to prove on account of concerns about property rights (over the woman; inheritance; status through paternity, and so forth). Zina did not mean rape. That is why when the colonial penal code was translated into Urdu the invented a term: zina bil jabr. One wishes they had coined a totally separate term and saved us from these self-satisfied and self-serving ‘ulema’.

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  • Jun 1, 2013 - 2:31AM

    @gp65:

    Its not 4 Muslim male witnesses. That issue you’re looking at is with the Pakistani version..

    Its 4 eye witnesses in that Quranic verse, who are to be produced by the accuser (male connotation) who makes allegations against chaste women. As far as I know, neither gender or religion is specifically mentioned in regards to the 4 witnesses for the case of adultery.

    And to add, the next verse goes on to impose a punishment on false accusing MEN, who do not produce 4 witnesses (and impossibly cannot, or if he does then all of them would be in question on what they were doing on the premises), to be lashed for ‘wicked trangressions’.

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  • imran
    Jun 1, 2013 - 3:21AM

    Keep up, pakistan is almost destroyed

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  • fida
    Jun 1, 2013 - 5:28PM

    what rubbish!! if i am gonig to rape some one,i wouldn’t invite four others to come see me and my style and make its video. these mullas are out of mind .plz Take petty on life of poor girls and women ,they are already so deprived in our society.men as a whole and these mulla particulrly reponcible for it,,,these mulla wouldnt change their mind so we should change our and dont put ears on their such things….

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  • Zunaira Butt
    Jun 1, 2013 - 6:27PM

    Does this Mulana Sahib know What DNA is???? and what and how strong evidence this in a rape case?????? It seems MULANA sahib doesnt anthing that adults know…… that could be the only logic of defying this test.

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  • unknown
    Jun 1, 2013 - 7:50PM

    isn’t it on judge to decide which evidence is what ??

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  • Insaan
    Jun 17, 2013 - 8:05PM

    http://dawn.com/news/1016271/a-license-to-rape

    Recently, the three accused of raping an 18-year old woman at Jinnah’s Mausoleum were set free by a court in Karachi. The court refused to entertain the DNA evidence, which reportedly proved the guilt of the accused, and gave the accused the benefit of the doubt because the victim could not produce four eyewitnesses to the rape.

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  • Jun 28, 2013 - 3:06PM

    Rape case inside the house the man knocks our house. my daughter open the door and he acts of sexual harrasment , and we dont have witness can we winn or not? what we can get my daughter? what we can benifits from him?

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