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Befriending India
Pakistan should favourably note lessening of Indian rigidity on Mumbai, seek greater conviction with New Delhi.
The writer is a former foreign secretary and Pakistan’s ambassador to several states including Iran, France and Russia
Islamabad has shown extraordinary persistence in continually renewing the invitation to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to visit Pakistan. More recently, it was done by its foreign minister, commerce minister and President Asif Ali Zardari himself during his pilgrimage to Ajmer Sharif. Unfortunately, bilateral meetings held in the wake of Mr Zardari’s visit, including between the foreign secretaries, were not particularly productive. A fresh formal invitation combines the mundane and the sacred by suggesting that Manmohan Singh joins the Guru Nanak Jayanti celebrations at his ancestral village Gah.
As a theme, ‘Befriending India’ is likely to be considered wildly optimistic; the contentious agenda has all but expanded to include water-related issues and apprehensions about the Indian project in Afghanistan. And yet, there is a change in dynamics that can provide a climate in which a more harmonious relationship may well be negotiated. Deeper processes are at work in both the countries that make rapprochement a possibility.
That Pakistan has learnt its lessons enough to abandon confrontation is generally recognised. It is ready to move forward. The momentum of the two-nation theory, the 1949 border confrontation, the Kashmir war and many other factors lay behind the Pakistani desire to escape the gravitational pull of India not quite reconciled to partition. Pakistan sought military and economic security through pacts with the West and closer relations with the Arab-Islamic world. The secession of East Bengal accelerated this flight with the Arab world as a favoured destination. In recent years, information technology has brought India’s soft power to Pakistan diluting many of the old prejudices. More importantly, there is a reassuring wish to do what Shahid Javed Burki recommends in “Steps towards greater South Asian cooperation” (August 6): “bring Pakistan back into South Asia in the economic sense”.
In the Pakistani view, India has deliberately prevented a similar evolution of positive thoughts; the Mumbai episode made this task difficult anyway. But there is a change in the Indian approach to the neighbours, from which Pakistan is no longer being entirely excluded.
After being a captive of the hubris generated by its own marketing gimmick of “shining India”, the political elite of India has a more realistic appraisal of national and regional issues. In India-Pakistan Track-2 encounters, you still occasionally come across the view that India does not need Pakistan or even the rest of South Asia. It is usually a tactical ploy. Indian policy is shifting towards a mellower interest in regional trade and other economic exchanges. India has rediscovered that it is not immune to external shocks or, for that matter, internal challenges such as extreme poverty in large swaths of its huge landmass, perils of social polarisation and rampant corruption. The lowering of the GDP growth rate to between 5.5 to 6.5 per cent, depending on what part of the country you look at, makes for a less disdainful attitude towards the neighbours. The power outages that affected 680 million Indians, awakened the Indian elite and outsiders, addicted to an uncritical celebration of the Indian economic miracle to the reality that millions of Indians know only too well.
India can benefit from trade and investment ties with Pakistan and from an eventual access through Pakistan to West and Central Asia. In comparative terms, Pakistan may find valuable opportunities to rehabilitate its troubled economy. Neither side now forbids FDI from the other; it would be a game changer if trade and investment build up to a substantive level.
Improvement of infrastructure and a rapid removal of other inhibiting factors should make it easy to bring the current illegal trade worth $1.5 billion and a substantive part of much larger trade through third countries into the ambit of official trade by land and sea. If Prime Minister Singh and President Zardari are together in Tehran for the Non-Aligned Moot, they can settle the ground rules for Singh’s visit in November. A visit at this stage will create the right atmosphere for issues such as complaints about India’s non-tariff barriers (NTBs), customs procedures, harmonisation of standards and issuance of visas. More significantly, the leaders can initiate a serious dialogue about joint ventures and regional energy grids. This would also be an occasion to exchange views on creating conditions conducive to overland transit in the future.
Delinking economic issues from the larger differences as on Kashmir, terrorism, Afghanistan, a South Asian strategic regime and water can only be relative as they would continue to influence the inflections of bilateral relations. It is vital to make progress on them as well.
In the short term, progress on Kashmir would mean gradual winding down of military presence, repeal of draconian laws, freer intra-Kashmir trade and strengthening of autonomy on both sides of the Line of Control. Such progress would push conflict into the background as would agreements that enable the two nuclear-armed powers to build credible security architecture.
Pakistan should favourably note the lessening of Indian rigidity on Mumbai and seek to carry greater conviction with New Delhi. Some of New Delhi’s concerns are particularly related to its perception of Indian interests in Afghanistan being threatened by the Afghan Haqqani network and the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s alleged inroads into that country. Instability in Afghanistan spawns elements that would threaten the interests of all outside powers including India and Pakistan and, therefore, the two South Asian states should make a determined effort to develop a shared perspective on post-2014 Afghanistan.
A summit in Islamabad in November could also clarify the principles by which worsening differences on the Indian interpretation of the Indus Basin Treaty can be resolved. It could also clear the path to a resolution of issues like Sir Creek and Siachen which Pakistan regards as “doable” but India continues to stall. They need not become intractable. There are Indian sages that keep reminding their prime minister that the process can be part of the solution and, therefore, he need not tie up his visit with achievement of spectacular results. He should seriously consider this advice. Bilateral summits seldom fail completely even as they hardly ever constitute a breakthrough.
Published in The Express Tribune, August 11th, 2012.
Reader Comments (107)
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The issues between Pakistan and the rest of the World will go away when Pakistan becomes a tolerant nation that no longer uses strategic assets or supports terrorism. Until that happens talk about economic prosperity (regional or otherwise) will remain rhetorical.
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THIS grid-trip seems to give pakistanis a great deal of comfort, that india is yet backward, and is yet to become, what it has been portrayed in western press since long.
so, a case of over-draw, by a power-challenged state of UP, owing to poor monsoons, has been blown to proportions, as if no development has happened in INDIA.
GOOD, but if want to know why this simple case of power-trip has been made such a big issue in western press, GOOGLE: MULTI-BRAND RETAIL, keeping in mind that retailing in india is a $450 billion affair.
it’s all business. west is pressing for reforms in india, but congress beleagured by several scams, can not even in it’s distant dreams think about enraging voters, when elections are due in two years.
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Invoking the opponent’s supposed hubris to hide one’s own insecurity is the cheapest ploy in a diplomat’s book. Anyway, you need to understand that a new crop of leaders will turn up in New Delhi in the next 5-10 years. They will think differently, and wont be inclined to masking pride with false humility (as the old guard does right now). I hope your country also gets some fresher thinking than this ‘strategic location’ bull crap. I think the reason India is re-linking with its neighbors now is because “You cannot be happy, if your neighbors are unhappy”.
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all advices and recommendations to india for pakistan betterment to pakistan audience..This is called great foreign policy analysis .The only result is bring more pakistanis in victim mode rather than taking responsibility say progressing mumbai case with conviction.
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A good analysis and a balanced article, though a bit too optimistic on Kashmir. The difference shows between a top diplomat with experience as well as a brains and a liberal on his laptop at home, whose only link to the world of politics is his ultrafast internet connection to the New York Times. Thank you, Khan sahab.
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“Islamabad has shown extraordinary persistence in continually renewing the invitation to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to visit Pakistan. More recently, it was done by its foreign minister, commerce minister and President Asif Ali Zardari himself during his pilgrimage to Ajmer Sharif.”
It has been equally persistent in not addressing a key concern of India i.e. taking action against 26/11 perpetrators. Not just that it takes what India gives but fails to reciprocate. It wanted India to waive its objection to special tax breaks for Pakistan with regards to exports to Euro. This was against Euro rules and certainly likely to impact India which competes in the same textile products as Pakistan.So it promised India that if India waived its objections which WTO allowed it to have, in turn it would give India an MFN status. First of all, unclear why India agreed to suchunfair terms since India had ALREADY given Pakistan MFN status in 1996 as required by WTO rules. Pakistan took what India gave and has been dragging its feet with regards to MFN status for India. Indian home secretary had also come to Pakistan to sign off on a more liberalized visa regime which Pakistani businessmen demanded but after having agreed to all the terms, Rehman Malik backed out at the last moment stating that India’s home secretary was too low for him to accept his signature.
India had planned a trip to discuss the Sir Creek issue but Pakistan cancelled that meeting also. India has also unilaterally given permission to Pakistanis to invest in India – something that Pakistan has not reciprocated.
Pakistan talks peace but its actions are pretty unilateral – justtake – no give. Under the circumstance why would Manmohan Singh come to Pakistan? We also remember when Vajpayee had come to Pakistan – even gone to Minaare-e-Pakistan and what happened, Pakistan rewarded India with Kargill.
Oh and by the way has the leader of your taller than mountains friend visited Pakistan? No? Then why should you expect Indian leadership to visit India?
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ET please do not modify. I want to make two points clear to the former foreign secretary and Pakistan’s ambassador to several states including Iran, France and Russia.
1. One dollar per day: For a family of four it amounts to Rs 7500 per month. Per day calculations are: wheat 20/-, rice 10/-, milk 10/- veg 10/- dal 10/-, fruits 10/-. total per month 2100/- rent 500/- school 500/- cloths 300/- total 3400/-. which is less than 7500. You can survive and live nicely on a dollar a day. I hope being a former secretary and an ambassador he will get his maths right next time. This goes for others too.
2. Power: It was tripping. Now surely the learned ambassador must be knowing the difference between tripping and no power plants.
Now I read ET everyday. And the learned comments on each topic. One should thank ET for allowing the comments. However I want to ask one question: Why do people like secretaries, ambassadors, Generals, directors who write these columns make such mistakes? ET, you should be stricter. Something like: If it is in ET then its worth reading.
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Pakistan’s India policy is 100 % determined by the establishment and not by Mr Zardari
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Need I say more?
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Great article. Just give Kashmir to Pakistan and all of Pakistan’s problems will disappear. Baluchis, Sindhis, Pakhtoons and Hazara will come begging to be forgiven. Bangla Desh will become East Pakistan again, Taliban will go back to Lahor, and no body will have to pretend to being Arab any more. With Kashmir as part of Pakistan, all Shias, Ahmadis, Qadianis, Hindus and Christians will convert to Talibislam. Lets see, when Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan, only Sunni Kahmiris will be allowed to call themselves Pakistani, all tourism that sustains Kashmir will be abolished, only burka-clad women accompanied by four male witnesses will be allowed out of their homes, men and women smiling at one another will be stoned to death! It does sound like a wonderful vision for a modern Pakistan, except that the people mentioned above, Shias included, seem to be intent on destroying this dream land.
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“After being a captive of the hubris generated by its own marketing gimmick of “shining India”, the political elite of India has a more realistic appraisal of national and regional issues”.
Please read some Indian newspapes before writing an OpEd on India Pakistan relatinship. The term India Shining is highly discredited in India after the 2004 elections where the ruling NDA’s India Shining slogan fell flat bringing Congress led UPA to power.
India has many problems but it dares to look these problems in the eye and try to find workable solution. Just 2 examples should suffice: the mass support that Anna Hazare’s anti-corruption movement got from civili society – where millions of people came on the road and the type of reaction received by Amir Khan’s program Satymev Jayate where each week he describes some serious problem and also some recommended solutions. Milions of people have responded very favorably to this attempt by Amir. No-one has called him an ISI agent for holding a mirror to India’s problems.
So there is o hubris. Bu there is a quiet confidence. Oh and y by the way thank you for your concern about India’s relations with its neighbours. India has very good relations with Bangladesh and Sri Lanka.Even with China where there is a 50 year old border dispute, the leadership of both countries are pragmatically working to improve the things which can be improved and trade between the 2 countries is 70 billion dollars. India would like nothing better than viable and sustainable peace ut for that first Pakistan would have to clearly signal that it is willing to rein its non-state actors instead of allowing charachters like DPC to go around giving hate speeches.
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All your sggestions are for what India should give. Have you given some thought to what Pakistan will give other than empty promises of peace while simultaneously puffing up the DPC crowd?
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In the Pakistani view, India has deliberately prevented a similar evolution of positive thoughts; the Mumbai episode made this task difficult anyway.
Your public could not swallow the killing of 25 or so soldiers by US troops and you expect India to reciprocate positively after such terrorist attacks from Pakistan killing more than 150 ‘civilians’ on Indian soil!!
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Terming it as the Mumbai Episode, like it was some Soap-Opera. So death of 166 people has no value for Islamic Republic Of Pakistan, its only an episode, because 35000 of their people have died in different terrorist attacks. So where is our fault there ? How many Indians killed your countrymen ? Recommend
So much of this article is just wishful thinking
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“Pakistan should favourably note the lessening of Indian rigidity on Mumbai and seek to carry greater conviction with New Delhi. Some of New Delhi’s concerns are particularly related to its perception of Indian interests in Afghanistan being threatened by the Afghan Haqqani network and the Lashkar-e-Taiba’s alleged inroads into that country”
Let me rcap what you are saying:
India is concerned about LeT potentially going to Afghanistan in 2014 but it is not concerned with h the fact that LeT actually came to India and killed 166 innocent civilians and the fact that Pakistan has failed to take any action whatsoever..
My question to you:
When has any Indian leader ever given statement about Haqqanis? India always only talks about JeM and LeT. Recommend
@Tanvir Ahmad Khan
Please don’t repeat these issues .First of all , Indian gov and people are in no mood to talk about kashmir and water issues and all .Don’t forget when you talk about Kashmir , POK also comes to point. About water issues , India still behaves like a holy cow , but don’t expect India to remain so forever .Now a days we don’t consider pakistan and pakistani people in our leagueRecommend
Dear Author,
.
Your article only suggests that … Indian will forget 26/11 and other Pakistan backed terror attacks and their doing in Kargil …
.
You ignored the ruthless terror hatchery that is spread across Pakistan and want India to just walk into a trap … yet again !
.
Until Pakistan makes a determine effort to root our terror from its land … till then not only India and the world at large should use diplomatic influence, economic sanction and push them into isolation …
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Nothing has changed in Pakistan’s anti-India propoganda and narrative. Let Pakistan live with its propogandist and false view of India which hurts Pakistan and no one else. India should not engage Pakistan assuming it has learnt it’s lesson .
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Another “Do more” list from Pakistan.
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@entropy: “Experienced diplomats such as Khan saab” are the reason Pakistan has had sch an unsuccessful foregn policy. Forget India fo the moment. But a majoirty of people in 5 out of 6 Muslim countries surveyed had negative perception of Pakistan. Even in the 6th country – Turkey – more people had a negative perception(43%) than a positive perception (37%). A majoriy even in China had a negative perception of Pakistan. Your foreign policy has also successfully alienated your sugar daddy on the basis of whose support you initiated and fought unnecessary wars with India. UK where 1.5 million people of Pakistani origin lives has stated that Pakistan is a terror hub. Same statement has also come from German and French leadership also.
It is time for introspection. Einstein said ” Definition of insanity is to do the same thing and expect a different result”.
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Do you want to try that calculation again, but this time using a calculator?
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“Friendship with India” seems to be the flavour of the month here on ET columns – one of the many in the last few days.
One might ask – why should India play along? What possible benefit could this have for India? What India wants – Pakistan is not ready to deliver (stopping of support to LeT and their likes, proceedings against the perpetrators/planners of 26/11, and other such issues). Economically, it is Pakistan that needs India more, not the other way around. If India were to ignore pakistan, the economic loss would not be too much. So why bother with this charade
And dear author, the wounds of 26/11 run quite deep – it won’t be so easily forgotten!
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“Progress on Kashmir”: the only realistic progress on Kashmir is for Pakistan to forget about it. Leave it to India and Kashmir to settle; anything else is a prescription for nuclear war.
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The former Diplomat is trying to sell the idea that India needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs India. India is a 1.7 trillion dollar economy, all India has been telling to Pakistanis is…if we trade with each other..its a win-win for both countries. Pakistan always does tit-for-tat with India in military matters..if India builts a bomb, Pakistan builds 4 more, India buys weapons, Pakistan gets weapons But if India offers trade/aid/connectivity …Pakistan balks!
The problem is Pakistan’s heart not at the right place. It does not think about improving the life of its people as much as causing sufferings to India.
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@3rdRockfromtheSun: “Economically, it is Pakistan that needs India more, not the other way around”.
I will not agree with your statement. We Indians have an economical advantage over Pakistan. We will be selling more than what Pakistan can sell to us. With this imbalance, Pakistan will help its arch rival to build a new nuclear submarine each year.
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” … The momentum of the two-nation theory, the 1949 border confrontation, the Kashmir war and many other factors lay behind the Pakistani desire to escape the gravitational pull of India not quite reconciled to partition. … “
This seminal misreading of Indian people’s attitude towards partition IS THE CAUSE of Pakistan being a security state instead of a welfare state. Pakistan found an enemy in a neighbour who only wanted to move on.
” …. The lowering of the GDP growth rate to between 5.5 to 6.5 per cent, depending on what part of the country you look at, makes for a less disdainful attitude towards the neighbours …. “
Wrong again. Difficult times make us more difficult to deal with. A lowered growth rate does translate into any form of leverage for Pakistan or anybody else. And, from my point of view, the slowing down is welcome, because the disparity between those with means and those without was growing too rapidly for social stability AND a slow down spurs innovation.
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Comment by Sinclair above:
” Anyway, you need to understand that a new crop of leaders will turn up in New Delhi in the next 5-10 years. They will think differently, and wont be inclined to masking pride with false humility (as the old guard does right now). I hope your country also gets some fresher thinking than this ‘strategic location’ bull crap.”
Heed it, Ambassador, and stop this crap about “we-know-you-are-itching-to- be-scratched-on-your-back-but-you-will-have-to-scratch-ours-first”. India does not feel that itch and you can go get yourselves scratched by “higher-than- Himalayas-and-deeper-than-the-ocean” friend! From what you have said, you do not even have an inkling of what awaits Pakistan when that generation, in less than 5 years, will take over from old fogies now both in the government and opposition in India. That will be the day their nostomania about their youthful days will be buried for ever. And, India will start a new era of calibrating its relations with Pakistan on realpolitik!
I would also recommend you study carefully all comments by ayesha_khan above!
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No we don’t need Pakistan or Pakistanis to bring prosperity for our people. Pakistan’s a failed state
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“In India-Pakistan Track-2 encounters, you still occasionally come across the view that India does not need Pakistan or even the rest of South Asia. It is usually a tactical ploy.” It would be informative if Mr.Khan can elaborate on this. Exactly, why does India ‘need’ Pakistan for? The only reason Pakistan is in the mind of the Govt. of India and its citizens is because of the concern as when and where the next batch of terrorists will be sent to India to kill innocent civilians.
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“Unfortunately, bilateral meetings held in the wake of Mr Zardari’s visit, including between the foreign secretaries, were not particularly productive.”
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The Pakistani FM and the Foreign Secretary visits to New Delhi included a meeting with Kashmiri separatists in the Pakistani Embassy. Such deep insensitivity contributed towards unproductive bilateral meetings, and not ‘fortune’
The Indian FM should reciprocate and meet the Balochi separatists during his forthcoming visit to Pakistan.
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Indians believe that Pakistan is a devious, treacherous, deceitful country that actively wages a low level proxy war against India.
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Beyond engagement there is little else expected.
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It seems authors first and last wish is strong textKASHMIRstrong text
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@entropy:
1 dollar = 55 rupee.
55 * 4 = 220
220 * 30 = 6600.
so, @nandkishore perhaps assumed $ 1 as 62.5 rupees. plz, correct me, if i am wrong.
also, i do not agree with his contention that you can live nicely with this much some, as living comfortably these days means having a mobile with balance in it. and the money to buy fuel for your vehicle, and if you do not have vehicle, then the transportation cost also adds up.
then again, in poor homes, sickness is the almost like a family member: always present..
and medicines and doctors are the most dearer things in india.
besides, there are lots of festivals to celebrate with new clothes and utensils.
and some money needs to be invested for guarding us from dreadful future.
in nutshell, you just somehow live your life and tread along, but never lead a comfortable life.
however, it’s the BPL scheme that comes to the rescue here(corruption is rampant, but folks know how to twist the system to their advantage). wheat as costly as Rs 11 are sold at Rs 2-3 per kg(forgive me if i am quoting older data, but is somewhat closer) for poors.
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@C. Nandkishore:
bro in my state poor family get rice 2 /-,wheet 8/- and govt .alot them loan for house (atal awas yojna) in 35/- per mounth .
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@ the author,
” Pakistan has learnt its lessons enough to abandon confrontation is generally recognised.”
- really ….. ? ….. where is the evidence in support of such observation … ? proxy terrorist outfits still enjoy the support of the establishment, and operate in broad daylight in Pakistan … !
- as for “India shining”, the people of India know about the reality more than anyone else, but under no circumstance will barter away their secutiry and dignity, either to the Wal-Mart or to Pakistani black-mail.Recommend
Gryffindor friends with Slytherin?? highly unlikely…
(oh ofcourse, now we might differ a bit on the identity of slytherin in this case ;p)
@3rdRockfromtheSun
“”"why should India play along? What possible benefit could this have for India? “”"
er i dont know, gas pipelines perhaps? TAPI and/or IPI? ever heard of them :)
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Mr. Author sir, although I agree with you that India and Pakistan should be good neighbors and must care for each other, but, we Indians feel hurt and irritated when even an enlightened Pakistani like you try to imply/suggest that 26/11 was just another terrorist incident and should be forgiven and forgotten. You guys just don’t know how deeply the Mumbai massacre left an ineradicable impact on us Indians’ collective psyche. I live in the down south in India and trust me when that horrendous 60 hour nightmare started to unfold on the TV screens, none of my family could go to sleep that night. Not just us, but, our entire colony stayed awake the whole night. Next morning when I went to my workplace, everyone of my colleagues were depressed and no one wanted to speak as the horror event was still being showed live on the TV screens. But, once the nightmare declared over, all of us, irrespective of our caste, creed or religion, burst in to anger and everyone was crying for Pakistani blood. I may sound harsh and unreasonable to you, but, every word that I wrote is true, after all rationality is always the first victim of the anger.
My humble request to you and for that matter every other Pakistani columnist is that, please don’t belittle the innocent victims of Mumbai outrage. As for the improving relations between our two countries, the ball is in the Pakistani court. As many of my fellow countrymen have suggested on this forum repeatedly, all that Pakistan needs to do is to close down terrorist nurseries on its soil and punish the culprits of 26/11 carnage. That would not only solve at least half of Pakistan’s problems but also help restore Pak’s shattered image amongst the comity of nations.
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@C. Nandkishore: A dollar a day means $30 per month . 30×55= Rs1650 not Rs 7500.
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No Thanks.
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The basic flaw in this article is that India is badly off so it needs to befriend Pakistan . India and Pakistan have been badly off for the last 65yrs , in the best of times it has been like visiting a hospital as a out patient other wise mostly we have been on oxygen or in the ICU. The thing to realize is that neighbors need each other, USA & Canada are both prosperous countries but they realize they need each other and they trade and interact not abuse and kill.Interact more fight less. Like it between India and China lot of trade some hot air sometimes but no one rocks the trade boat. Trade and business create a lobby even the hate mongers find hard to beat. Notice the the resumption of the trucks carrying the NATO supplies i bet the transport lobby in Pakistan had a hand to play in the normalization .
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Why do you need PM Singh in Pakistan? So that you can complain the thousand and one complains Pakistan has about India. You can do it without his visit. Just send a written list.
You do not have to degrade and insult the PM after his visit as has been seen so often by your politions. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. So why not Pakistan start in a positive manner and forget Kashmir, Sachin and Sir Creek and start a new leaf in history.
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In responding to the author, I had to look up the meaning of ” balderdash”
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Balderdash means nonsense!
Selfserving ideas mutilated to appear as logical analysis.
Guess this is what happens when you live under a military dictatorship
where reality must be warped.
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Mr. ex-foreign secretary,
Please retire for good.
India will live in peace when India suspends ALL relations with Pakistan, and we in India never read or hear the word Pakistan.
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I don’t understand why these Pakistani authors are trying so inexorably to suggest that Indian government has forgotten Mumbai attacks when there’s not an iota of truth in it. Show me one statement by any Indian minister suggesting that India should forget about bringing the perpetrators of Mumbai attacks to justice and move on. I understand that Pakistan finds itself in a very desperate situation today and that it desperately needs India’s support to ensure its survival. However, for that to happen Pakistan must put an end to ‘bleed India though a thousand cuts doctrine’ and assure us that 26/11 type attacks will not be repeated in the future. You want us to move on and forget Mumbai attacks. You want us to continue to tolerate terrorism emanating from Pakistan. Right? No we shall not move on until there’s a satisfying closure on the 26/11 attacks, especially to the victim families of that audacious and heinous attack. Please take Mumbai attacks very seriously. Mark my words Indo-Pak ties won’t improve until the perpetrators of Mumbai attacks are brought to justice. We have said this before and we shall continue to emphasize on this point in the future. This is one issue which cannot be brushed under the carpet and there shall be no compromise on it. Period
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A few points –
For those who wonder why my fellow Indians get angry about 26/11
26/11 was the first time terrorism hit the upper class / upper middle class India. It also attacked some very major symbols – The Taj at Gateway and Victoria Terminus or C.S.T are major Mumbai/India landmarks. In part, I agree with the analysis, that the Indian foreign policy and political establish has indicated a willingness to negotiate (the commerce agreement itself is a good sign). However, Pakistanis must be more aware that a whole generation of elite Indians who did not care about political issues (for a range of reasons including obsession with material progress) were suddenly exposed to terrorism at a very close range in a very familiar surrounding. I meet young people who are perfectly sane and extremely liberal but go ape when it comes to Pakistan. This was not the norm in upper middle class India. Its a very recent phenomenon.
As for Manmohan Singh going to Pakistan
Seriously? The last time Indian PM to go to Pakistan was Vajpayee. That was a historic opportunity. It will not come again. Congress is like Democrats in US, scared of being seen weak on national security. If post visit, another Kargil like madness descends on Pak Army, Congress is done. The BJP could recover because they were hardliners anyway. Sadly, BJP will never again have a cross cutting leader like Vajpayee with the b@lls to cross Wagah. Don’t praise Musharraf overmuch. He ruined an epic opportunity and to expect the Indian establishment to kiss and make peace with him at post-Kargil Agra was a pipedream.
I don’t write to ignite a blame game on this forum
As Pak-American friend of mine reminded me, Indian and Pakistans think they can make peace but forget that over 60 years of different lives has put us on widely different mental, socio-cultural and political trajectories. Our grounds for understanding each other can no longer be the past shared heritage. It is sad but the truth. But its also an opportunity to move on.
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Mr Ex-Diplomat.
Sir, have you talked to any of your Western Neighbours viz. Afghans, lately?
Or, your Most Allied Ally for that matter?
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@Sudheer:
Well said bro, I absolutely second what you have said.
Those heads responsible for 26/11 has to roll until then no engagement with Pakistan, case closed !
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If Manmohan Singh ever makes it to Islamabad it would be in courageous defiance of a large lobby of hate-mongers in his country. The fact that he has not been able to do so shows that this lobby that comes up with useless doctrines such as a limited war with Pakistan under a nuclear umbrella and more recently Cold Start has almost a veto on relations with Pakistan.
RE SUDHEER: Please do not think even for a moment that the victims of Mumbai are belittled. Pakistan has lost 35000 of its citizens to terrorism. It understands India’s pain and rage.
General: many comments have come, as always, from the Cyber battalions of the Indian intelligence services. They bear no relationship with the contents of my article and are a pooled effort to attack the author who dared to speak of poverty in India and a slow-down of its economy. This group is best ignored.
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“That Pakistan has learnt its lessons enough to abandon confrontation is generally recognised. It is ready to move forward.” You mean by building tunnels and sending trained militants through them, or what?
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Author is so wrong at various levels. India is indeed trying to improve relationship with pakistan, but the reason has nothing to do with the troubles India has been having on economic sphere. It is well known that the economic problems of India is due to the of Gandhi family, which sees merit in runaway subsidies.
The reason why India is trying to make peace with Pakistan is simple – It is another muddle headed thinking on part of Manmohan Singh. He believes he can snag a deal from Pakistan on his watch. The reality is – Pakistan is in no way to deliver what is a passable arrangement.
India can grow faster if there was peace in the region. But, it can grow faster by just changing internal hurdles to growth as well. Current Indian Govt. is not doing either.Recommend
Our Indian friends become so spontaneously defiant and indignant when a Pakistani correspondent mentions anything about the economic woes millions of Indians face. Suggest they should read Rahul Jacob’s piece (“India Inc will never catch up with China”) in the Financial Times 9 Aug: “As many commentators tartly observed when the Indian government announced a mission to Mars last week, the country is home to about half the world’s severely malnourished children. Meanwhile, only 23 per cent of Indians have received secondary education – much of it of variable quality – while more than twice as many have in China…..The demographic hot air-balloon floated by many Indian businessmen, like the share prices of their companies, has begun to deflate… the poor quality of state education is pernicious. A 2011 survey of government schools in India by Pratham, an education-focused non-governmental organisation, found that half the country’s Class 5 of 10-year-olds could not read a text suitable for children three years younger…..Delhi, meanwhile, seems the most cosseted capital in the world: the people who decide that India must attempt a mission to Mars live in vast colonial bungalows while the boys in the government school I visited in west Delhi sat on a grimy rug in a dingy room. The people who run the system really do live in another universe.”
Indian friends do please try to be more realistic and objective and less self absorbed in a virtual cloud of marketing hype. India shining or India whining?
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Comments from Indian readers: Forget about my observations about poverty and social polarisation in India; just read what an Indian analyst wrote in Financial Times on August 8:
“Delhi, meanwhile, seems the most cosseted capital in the world: the people who decide that India must attempt a mission to Mars live in vast colonial bungalows while the boys in the government school I visited in west Delhi sat on a grimy rug in a dingy room. The people who run the system really do live in another universe. “
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@entropy: You are right. My rule applies to me first. I stand corrected.
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Befriending Pakistan would have been a more apt title.
I request the ex foreign secretary of Pakistan to read another op-ed published in this newspaper towards the end of June which is titled…” hemmed in from all sides”……
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@Auther
Ok Indian growth projections fell to 6.5-5.5%.So does this imply that Indian economy is failed and there is urgent need to befriend Pakistan?How this is relevent to relations with Pakistan?However a growth of 6.5 or 6% is not that bad that you are dreaming.This rate is still a robust one.
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@Sahar Khan, Nobody’s claiming here that India’s shining. But last time I checked Pakistan was ranked 13th in failed states index though.
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spacedoutwriting:
Thanks for your incisive comments. The past heritage alone cannot be the basis of future ‘friendship’. India and Pakistan, locked together by geography, must find a new basis for good-neighborly cooperation.It can be done. Incidentally, I have never understood Indian admiration for General Musharraf whose Kargil adventure was no less destructive of bilateral relations than the ghastly crime in Mumbai.
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@Tanvir Ahmad Khan
Pakistan has lost 35000 of its citizens to terrorism. It understands India’s pain and rage.
Beg your pardon, Pakistan does not even come anywhere near it. Sample this,
A. Pakistan goes on defending and sheltering the perpetrators of 26/11. Non delivery of voice samples is a case in point.
B. Pakistan’s pain and rage and fury was much in evidence post Salala. However, one has not seen the same when the perpetrators have been non-state actors. The beheading videos and the Pakistani state’s silence is another case in point.
C. Routine release of ‘alleged terrorists’ for ‘want of evidence’ and conviction of Dr Afridi, again show where does the ‘pain and rage’ of Pakistani state originate.
Sir, the time for homilies is over. The time for Home Truths is nigh.
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@Author, I am writing this from Australia and yes i wish i was paid by Indian Intelligence service but I am not. You “assume” people writing here are Indian intelligence minions without evidence. Also perhaps you have no answer of some of the issues raised by my Indian friends so best you do is ignore them!. Well if illustrious ambassador of Pakistan believes in conspiracy theory then we Indian don’t have much hope do we.
what has happened to the request of voice samples India is requesting may be even to neutral country. The goons who on daily basis shout death to India roam freely in Pakistan and you guys cant do anything. And you still want India to do this and that!
Regarding poverty and other ills of India. Wel,l we dont need a Pakistani to tell us our problems because we don’t deny our issues nor do we hide behind a conspiracy theory.
P.S: I do hope I get employed by Intelligence agencies to write here. Still waiting to know how author assumed we ‘Indian Trolls’ work for RAW.Recommend
I guess we have to add disclaimers to all our comments stating we are not agents of any branch of Indian intelligence. Mr. Tanvir Ahmad Khan, calling us as intelligence lackeys is more of an insult – akin to a bad word I would say. Considering Indian intelligence has not been able to prevent ANY terrorist attacks in India, I dont know if any of them can string together a gramatically quasi-correct sentence to begin with. I believe that officers who pass for Indian intelligence agents cannot be trusted to ride tricycles in their own backyard without causing accidents. Thank you.
Disclaimer: I have not been employed by any branch of Indian Intelligence to write this comment.
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“That Pakistan has learnt its lesson enough to abandon confrontation…..” is probably the only sensible sentence in the entire article. Now to some of the other points he has raised:
Kashmir: The suggestions he has made have been done in a far more realistic manner by President Musharraf in Agra, basically linking them to Pakistan’s change of position on the Security Council resolutions. He had wanted something in return. Kashmir is an internal matter for India and whatever locus standi India was prepared to give Pakistan should be over in view of the reversal of Musharraf’s position.
India’s “less disdainful attitude towards its neighbors” because of the lowering of its growth rates. Well, what is the neighborhood like? Is it like China surrounded by more advanced countries/ territories like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc.? No. Since India is by far the largest economy, our neighboring states can benefit from a number of comparative advantages (transportation charges, for eg, by trading with India). Evidence suggests that smaller economies benefit by association with a larger economy. India’s trade figures, forget growth figures, are not about to jump because Pakistan now very kindly deems it fit for us to trade with them.
Power outage: Ironic coming from a Pakistani. The cumulative period of outage was 20 hours over two days and fixed in pretty good time.
Mumbai: I don’t think Pakistanis have any idea of the searing experience that the terrorist attack had for India. Now with Abu Jundal (Zabiuddin Ansari)’s deportation to India by the Saudis, more concrete information on 26/11 should emerge.. To try and brush it under the carpet demonstrates either a deliberate effort not to confront realities or gross insensitivity.
Afghanistan: Yes, the Foreign Secretary has made some sensible points on this but perhaps also from the recognition that India will be in Afghanistan, whether Pakistan wants it or not, because Afghans, including the Pashtuns want it there.
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It is unfortunate that after Shahzad Chaudhary, it is the turn Tanveer Ahmed Khan to blame Indian intelligence agencies for pointing out loopholes in their articles. Pakistani elites should remember that India spends much more on education than it does on defence. Therefore you can expect educated Indians joining the internet community and posting their viewpoints. This habit of Pakistanis to take solace in India’s poverty is legendary. Is Pakistan a developed country with no poverty? The percentage of poverty is more or less same in both the countries. Since India is more populated therefore number of poor people are more. I have never come across a single article by a Pakistani pointing out the poverty in China. Pakistanis should know that even by the most conservative estimates there are at least 250 million poor people in China. That is 70 million more than the population of Pakistan. It is strange that the author believes that since India’s GDP is falling then an economically weak India will be more accomodating to Pakistani demands. I think the author should remember that India was literally dirt poor when it created Bangladesh out of East Pakistan. Falling GDP or poverty is not going to affect Indian foreign and defence policy goals. Finally I am not a RAW agent but yes if RAW wants to employ me then I would be more than happy to serve my beloved India.
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Sundry intellectuals and liberals and politicians are not allowed to take this decision.
It is the COAS who has to take the call on whether to befriend India or not. So, let’s cut out the chase and stop this non-stop barrage of verbiage.
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The reality is Pakistan has realized that it is missing the economic boom of India and China. Also its elite are trying to repeat the history after taking advantage of rivalry of US and Russia to its advantage they think it is high time for India India and China to come to Pakistan and fight for its attention and shower them with investment. This was expected from KSR too. Back than Pakistan was honest broker and now she has lost her credibility due to support for non state actors, poor law and order, poor conviction rate of terrorist etc. Put simply the environment is not investor friendly. Even if Pakistan woke up one of these days and decided to give up the policy of strategic depth and support for non state actors it will take good 8-10 years before investors will flock. Look at Myanmar, how long it took global community to warm up to her again. Look at Libya after giving up support for terrorist (Pan Am bombing, Cruise Ship attack etc) and nuclear ambitions it took ten years before world warmed up to and since fundamentals wee not right everyone knows what happened.
Disclosure: I am not paid by ISI, RAW,CIA.MOSSAD, MI-6 etcRecommend
Please do not think even for a moment that the victims of Mumbai are belittled. Pakistan has lost 35000 of its citizens to terrorism” This is where ignorance lies. No doubt both the countries have been victims of terrorism. But from different contexts. Terrorism in India has its origins mainly in Pakistan, even the so called Indian Mujahedeen people who have been apprehended have confessed to being picked up from Gulf, brain washed, trained in arms and ammunitions and then allowed to cut loose. On the other hand, terrorism in Pakistan is attributed to the blow back phenomenon. For decades Pakistan has been passionately following the dictum of playing with fire and now facing the consequences of trial by fire. Now to compare terrorism in India with that of Pakistan is really Immature, Foolhardy and Childish. Thankfully the rest of the world and most of the countries in Ummah understands this. But sadly though Pakistan though aware of this fact is not trying to make a course correction. That is the power of truth.
Regards
PRecommend
for years Pakistan has literally pressurizing India to calm down on Mumbai issue.why?so that an another attack could be staged.eg a 100m tunnel being dug into India in J&K.
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@akash:
Pakistan -The land of pure conspiracy theories
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Tanvir Ahmad Khan :
You said “General: many comments have come, as always, from the Cyber battalions of the Indian intelligence services. They bear no relationship with the contents of my article and are a pooled effort to attack the author who dared to speak of poverty in India and a slow-down of its economy. This group is best ignored.”
Mr Author: I really feel sorry for you. You could not reply to the many comments in this section and are trying to hide the famous pakistani syndrome. Cyber battalions of the Indian Intelligence Services ??? Sir, India does not post its active or retired army or RAW personnel in civilian appointments. Nor RAW stage manages groups like DeP of Pakistan to generate sound and light show. I am sure you know all these and still trying to blame it on intelligent services is pathetic, I am a 58 year old individual from the south India who have not even seen Delhi and I concur with most Indian’s comments purely based on the content. I dont mind getting a pay check from RAW for typing this though I know fully well I will not get one. You should realise that we are not running away from poverty elimination nor are we worried about your mentioning it. You can bash India as much as u want for poverty alleviation. We are unconcerned, Neither we are worried about poverty in Pakistan because it is not our look out. The only point which troubles any Indian is the terrorism sponcered by Pakistan in Kashmir, Mumbai etc. The moment you say that India should ignore this and improve the trade with neighbours so that poverty can be alleviated etc, it does not sell. With increased prosperity and reduced security, life isnt good at all.
But if Pakistan withdraws its sponcership of terrorism and curbs its transnational nonstate actors, it will automatically improve the security situation in the whole of South Asia including India and will result in increased FDI, lesser investments in security apparatus etc. This alone will increase the GDP without even mentioning trade. Trade will automatically happen if u curtail terrorists. So without the elimination of root cause, you cannot trade or improve existing trade much.Recommend
@Cautious:
unless it is given a chance to concentrate, it is not possible.things can not change overnight.
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@C. Nandkishore:
1. its not 1 $ per day but 0.5 $ p er day. and the government has surely made a joke of defining people living above or below powerty line
2. dont deny. india too has acute power shortage. get the data from indian government’s version ….(i) 25% population has no access to electricity.(ii) of the remaining 75%, 90% have access to less than 12 hours electriciy and that too in instalments.well remaining 10% are fortunate to have 22-24 hrs supply but then such pockets also exist in pakistan.
3. tripping was done because 15 states, facing acute shortage tried to over draw the electricity from grid. now what made them to over draw ? obviously to meet the demand.
Dont deny the facts for false national pride.
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Dear TA Khan Sir,
You are right about some aspects of bilateral relations. The 35000 lives lost in Pakistan came about as a consequence of Pakistan’s own strategic depth and bleeding India through a 1000 cuts policies. So please stop playing a victim. However, the core issue as perceived by Pakistan of whose government you were a part of, Kashmir has to have a solution. Nobody in the world knows what that solution can be other than status quo which Pakistan rejects. So trust deficit is not likely to evaporate. India will muddle along for while but ultimately it is Pakistan that will have to wake up and alter its direction. Do not be a victim of your own propaganda. We have to live as neighbours. It is better we live as brothers rather than enemies. Indian military has not got such a powerful lobby as Pakistan has. Indian PM will visit Pakistan as soon as he sees a tangible benefit to bilateral relations. I think once the NATO force leave AfPak, Pakistan is likely to change its stance to a rigid one. Currently the US forces are a big factor in Pakistani tactics. If our countries have to proceed on the path of peace, JUD and others of its ilk better behave properly otherwise all this hard work by both governments will come to zilch.
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I might be imagining it but I only heard only what India needs to do.
I have grown tired of saying this: India is a status quo Country. It “needs” to do NOTHING!
India always wanted good trade with Pakistan, to make it sound like a concession suggests this was not so before.
But, with respects to issues that really matter to Pakistan, it is not in Indian interests to give in. Why would she? Compromises happen on give and take and Pakistan has nothing to give.
Why the sudden change in Indian stance about Mumbai? Because they realize that after 2014 really bad things are going to happen in Pakistan and want the liberals on their side. The Democrats are India’s best bet for now.
It is a great consolation to know that the creatures that have killed 166 in Mumbai on Nov 26, 2008 have killed many dozen times more in Pakistan. Sadism, not really, irony…
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@ Indian Trolls
See the BBC news link for all Indian folks who believe that those earning one dollar a day are living a good life and defend it rather are proud of it. If you Indians are so justified and proud of the poverty then why look for economic growth, be prod of the cesspool that your country is or even better make it a bigger crap hole. What a mindset of your Indians.This brahman mindset wants the poor the remain in perpetual poverty so your brahman controlled elite can prolong their grip on their rule.
There are more power in India than 26 African states combined. The degree of poverty is far worse than Chad, Niger, Botswana, Congo, Mali, Mauritani etc combined. India is a country whose 700 million people defecate in the open and millions of female babies are killed in the mass female infanticide. I bet these things make every Indian very proud.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10609407Recommend
@Ghaznavi:
Dude, read this:
http://tribune.com.pk/story/181361/economic-survey-2010-11-has-the-real-poverty-rate-hit-43/
Poverty rate in Pakistan is 43%, more than 10% than India’s 28%(as per WB).
In spite of pointing it out to you so many times, you still persist with your imaginary numbers. Is the truth too hard to digest?
More detailed retort if you question it, with more damaging details. Wanna dare?
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@Tanvir Ahmad Khan:
The problem is somewhat different.
The Indian opinion on this site is almost unanimous but their government knows a little more. All these abuses should be directed at their government which seems ready to walk the path of improving relations.
There is nothing we can do to cure their intolerance unless the GOI decides to share things with its public opinion..
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The true face of India:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/14/poverty-india-africa-oxford
And Indians proudly claim that the poor people are not that poor as a family of four can live like kings on a dollar a day. Assuming that in a family of four a father mother and kids everybody is earning a dollar a day. When infact most of India lives on one brad earner. Which means an entire family lives on one dollar a day. With minds like Indians no wonder us Maoists already have our sway over 45% of India and it is growing.
These Indians who work in call centres, sit in-front of their laptops munching on burgers and sipping colas. For them world is very simple on the 14 inch screen. What they dont know is how a common Indian family lives by. Next time they shoudl try to feed their family at 1 dollar a day and then see how well off 80% of country men live in. And next time go crap in the open air latrines like 700 million of your country men do:Recommend
Who will invest in Pakistan when Indian investors hesitate to invest in states like Kashmir?.
Pakistan is a failed state and seeks to take advantage from India’s economic boom for its own survival.
Why should India even talk with Pakistan when it uses its territory for waging terrorist activities in India.
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@antanu g:
you are the guy who is from bangladesh, lives in india for economic reasons, but has pakistan in heart, as you wrote in one of your comments some time back.
so, can i say, that a man who doesn’t have love for his motherland(bangladesh), doesn’t exactly has a moral ground to tell me how to love my motherland.
am i right or not?
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@Maoist:
bhai, you forgot that the $ 1 is per capita……it’s the authors fault if he was unable to paraphrase it correctly…..and your analogy of family of 4 living on 1 dollar, therefore is wrong.
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@Maoist:
according to latest report of phr 75% of pakistan living below poverty line pakistani poverty rate in 2012.and pakistan litteracy rate is only 54% compare to india 75% and ya ur country infant mortality rate(65) is worst in south asia only better than afghanistan and way behind than india (33).and ur country produced only 0.8 % of total gradudate in the world compare to india 11% (only behind china=17% and usa=12%).world gradudate % country wise
infant mortality rate by country.and
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Leave alone what Pakistan’s external policy is, does anyone really know who are the policy-makers with regard to US, India or Afghanistan? Until the question is answered everything the writer has said in the article will come under ‘wishful thinking’ and quite impractical and improbable.
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The very creation of Pakistan is based upon that Hindus and Muslims can not live together. Where is the scope of friendly relations? If first part is right, second has to be wrong. However, if we want second to be desirable, the first will have to become undesirable.
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@ Bruteforce
The poverty level of india is 27% not as per internatiional scale (UN< IMF< WB) but on local i.e. Indian govt scale which is anybody earning more than Rs. 22 in rural and Rs. 30 in urban areas. Stop folling yourself and others. Why dont u bring the ‘poverty line’ to Rs. 1 per person per annum so that all Indians can be categorized as the richest nation on earth (only on books) while in reality you will keep defecating on the streets.Recommend
What does India’s well known power tripping and slow down in growth have to do with Pakistan? Nothing. But you want to feel good by seeking some sort of parity with India go ahead. It shows how insecure you are.
Re: Author’s comments in the comments section.
It is Pakistan that codified and constitutionalized hate as a national philosophy. The Pakistani people on the whole have supported terror as a weapon against India. Those are hard facts. And lastly who is so desperate to have the Indian PM visit Islamabad – it is Pakistan! You are bending to the will of your enemies – India and USA included. So much for all that ‘jihadi’ bluster. No one in the world believes anything Pakistan has to say. It stands exposed and isolated. Now it wants India to bail it out – India with all its poverty and power shortages.
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@ Bruteforce
I dare you to bring the facts into the open. At the least it will shame you and you will never come to ET again. Just answer these question:
– What is the local poverty line drawn by Indian govrnment?
– And what is the global poverty level by UN, WB, ADB etc?
Lets see if you got some brains!! I DARE YOU!!
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@Raja Poras:
haha bro last time i checked pak per capita income was lower than india and day by day the gap is growing after 1990 .by the way china gdp growth will lowest in this year only 7.8% compare to india 6.5%.
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@Maoist,
Mr. Maoist, you have no idea as to how insane you look while commenting on India’s poverty. Your comment exposes Pakistan/its citizen as a society that is totally battered and bruised and completely lost touch with reality. You are desperately trying to find little solace and refuge in your imaginary figures about India and its poverty. I am not angry at you at all, in fact, I feel sorry for you and sympathize with you, because, if I were a Pakistani, perhaps, I too would have been in the same state of mind that you are in today.
You gave a little link of UK’s Guardian, but conveniently forgot that the same newspaper published hundreds of articles/op-eds in the past about India’s glorious achievements not only in the field of economics, but, several other fields such as physics, chemistry, bio-technology, medicine, space etc..
Please read the link provided by BruteForce to understand, how Pak government has achieved a notoriety for fudging the economic figures and other vital statistics. Pakistan has even failed to conduct a credible census of its population which is regarded as vital for planning and launching programmes for the eradication of poverty, illiteracy, disease etc.. I can provide you with hundreds of the ‘links’ that are going to prove that India is far more prosperous than Pakistan, but, that would be a futile exercise, because, the the bitter truth is both India and Pakistan and for that matter, even China, has to travel pretty long and painful journey to achieve the living standards of today’s western world.
Therefore, buddy, just ‘curb your enthusiasm’, hope that you watched the serial!
@Author,
Respected sir, I am deeply disappointed at your reply, particularly, the part where you dubbed Indian reader’s comments as sponsored by the RAW, IB, etc., it was not expected of you, a retired former foreign secretary of Pakistan, to make such a claim. Similar opinion was expressed by one your retired Air Marshal on this very forum. But, how can one excuse a foreign secretary for making such an outrageous statement? After all rationality is considered be the greatest virtue of Geo-politics.
Anyway, let’s be positive in our approach and hope for the best.Recommend
Same old wishy washy thinking of an old generation of Pakistanis dreaming of acheiving some kind of parity with India. India has its share of developmental problems and is aware of the same and will sort it out, whereas Pakistan needs to urgently sort out its problems which are existential in nature. Pakistan desperately needs India as it wants to tap into the huge Indian market for its products and try to get Indian investment to bail out its sinking economy . And yes, no going forward on Kashmir or any other bilateral issue till justice is not delivered to the victims of 26/11 Mumbai attacks.
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@sahar khan:
Is it not the same India that gave $25 million aid to Pakistan during the floods ?
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@Ghaznavi:
In stead of gracefully agreeing that you were wrong and though India’s poverty rate is pretty high it is much lesser than Pakistan, you begin to talk nonsense.
I’ll provide more details in my next comment (if the mods allow it ofcouse), because @Raja Poras has dared me(clearly he has no idea who he is talking to).
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@Tanvir Ahmad Khan:
Why are Pakistanis interested in Indian poverty, is it killing Pakistanis, if anything it is killing Indians and definetly none of us Indians proud about but we don’t need a Pakistanis telling us how to rectify the problem.we have only one agenda to discuss with Pakistan don’t send terrorist to kill Indians
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@All Pakistani Friends Worried about poverty in India
Ask yourself this,
A. Is India dependent on ‘foreign aid’?
B. Can Pakistan afford to invest 2 billion USD in Afghanistan?
C. Are the other nations of the world lining up for economic ties with Pakistan?
D. Why Befriend India if it is so poor?
All your illusions will come crashing down.
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@sahar khan:
Now how does our whining help PakistanRecommend
Tanveer ahmad says many comments r coming from cyber battalion of IB/RAW.Sir i m a BE student and I m posting my comment here.We r poor but we dont want your help which is less for the welfare for common mass and more for the cause of terrorism.Talking about kashmir,dont you think ,you want Kashmir more than kashmiri people.This shows how much affection you have for them.But be assure,we r never going to loose kashmir.Kashmir was and will remain integral part of india……Alhamdidullhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Trade ties:Looking at the situation which is long prevailed in pak for whatever reason ,trade ties will cause dire situation for your economy further.Most of your traders r under threat and will willingly choose to stay in india citing safe heaven for FDI and security situation.Anyhow can any one from pakistan will tell me,what pakistan can offer us which we dont have.Nothing.So how come pakistan becomes savior for our economy though it is already running at the pace of 6.5% which is incredible.Country which is running at foreign aid tries to compare worlds third largest economy…biggest joke.Your country has already topped in failed nation index,you prime minister and FM visits China and US repeatedly for begging foreign aid so that you can manage food for your citizen.Infrastructure to run the country is already junked.Recommend
Tanvir
The whole article was acerbic against India. You were attempting to give a spin as if it was Pakistan all along that was trying to be friendly and India kept the distance. The very first line, Islamabad showing extraordinary persistence etc. smelled crappy. Pls. understand that this is not called persistence, but it is sheer desperation on your part to invite the Indian Premier on every possible occassion and hope that you would be rewarded with a visit.Recommend
Pakistan status has gone down from being a threat to India to no more then a nuisance. I really appreciate the policy of GOI to keep talking with Pakistan, build capability to deter china from any direct aggression by raising around 4 more divisions of Army in next 5 years on chinese border, in trying to bring hundreds millions of people out of poverty and building a strong economy. this will take time as wrong effects of 1000 years of slavery can not be undone in just a few decades. But India is moving in right direction. and if it continues like this, it will indeed become a much better place in a few years. It is always the case. The policies of today will show results in a few years, like 1985 IT act by Rajiv Gandhi is showing the result in form of IT boom in India(though I don’t like Gandhi dynasty). But if the leadership of a country does not even has the time and vision to make policies for tomorrow, then it will take a few years for that country to come back to its current state as that state is already sliding down the hill.
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@unbeliever:
true, he sometimes from Nagaland tribal land, sometimes from Klokklatta and all “problem” filled places in India
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@Raja Poras:
Have you ever heard the term “PPP” known as purchasing power parity?
Do you have any idea how much GOI spends on staple food/loan/education/training subsidies for those below poverty lines (BPL) citizens of India?
For instance, rice on ration is still available at Rs2.00 per Kilogram which is less than 4 cents per Kg. Can you name a country where food is so cheap for poor?
Official poverty level in USA is also around 25%.
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what I read in the article:
Pakistan should favourably note the lessening of Indian rigidity on Mumbai and seek to carry bigger operation in New Delhi.
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Indians never recognized Pakistan as an independent state and will never be. So first of all, strength your country, everyone will come to you by their needs. We need to do home work first.
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@sahar khan:
An Indian and every Indian must be thankful to Pakistani people and their various authors who points on the various weakness that we have …
.
We know them too and are working on them … trying to deal with the same at all levers including the grass root level. It may not be possible to list them out on a blog or a even a book … believe me these are numerous developmental steps and programs and acts …
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However, the size of India is very big, therefore most steps take years to show any effect … If you or any Pakistani is serious to know why are we so proud of our development and what is this “India Shining” is all about, should compare the data of the entire 65 years ..and see the trend … India had progressed and we soon will wipe out most of our evils if not all in next 15 to 20 years.
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Now coming to the topic, here the point of discussion is Indo-Pak friendship … and most Indians are against any such move as Pakistan still are running and grooming terrorists in large numbers and is taking all possible steps to protect them and use them at will …
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@Tanvir Ahmad Khan: “If Manmohan Singh ever makes it to Islamabad it would be in courageous defiance of a large lobby of hate-mongers in his country. The fact that he has not been able to do so shows that this lobby that comes up with useless doctrines such as a limited war with Pakistan under a nuclear umbrella and more recently Cold Start has almost a veto on relations with Pakistan”.
If Manmohan Singh does go to Islamabad, you may describe i as courageous defiance, I and others like me may describe it as ‘gross insensitivity” but those difference of opinion are not important. What is important is would that action help India in the long run (e.g. when he signed the nuclear deal which many people were against or when he liberalized the economy which also many status quoists were against) or not. If the people against the initiative were the war lobby, and there was an honest chance to get peace which would allow India to invest more in its social sector, he should do that. But evidence is thin that it is India’s war machine preventing peace. The recent record of negotiating with Pakistan where Pakistan makes verbal promises without following through and simultaneously encourage groups like DPC and India continues to unilaterally give things away does not seem like any further unilateralism short of gifting Kashmir away will satisfy Pakistan army – who are the only decision makers. In light of that he needs to wait until at least some prior Indian gestures are reciprocated before he moves forward.
“General: many comments have come, as always, from the Cyber battalions of the Indian intelligence services. They bear no relationship with the contents of my article and are a pooled effort to attack the author who dared to speak of poverty in India and a slow-down of its economy. This group is best ignored.”
You can ignore whom you want. As a free man in a free country you have a right to do so. However, making unsubstantiated allegations to anyone who provides feedback on your article simply reduces your own credibility even among people who may otherwise agree with you. In any event, the allegation is not even internally consistent. If all os us were paid intelligence trolls, then our motive would be to continue large defence and intelligence budgets not hypersensitivity to your statements about India’s poverty.
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@Aslam: “Indians never recognized Pakistan as an independent state and will never be. “
Does India have an embassy in Pakistan? DOes India allow a Pakistan embassy i India? Since both answers are yes, it means India recognizes Pakistan. India for example and most countries in the world in fact did not recognize the Afghan government during Taliban rule in 1996-2001 and hence they pulled back their ambassadors and sent Afghan ambassadors/high commissioners back.
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You know I live i Dallas, US and am a banker. Until I started reading Pakistani newspapers – if anyone had asked me about India intelligence agencies I would simply have stated CBI which is responsible for domestic intelligence gathering. Even today, I can bet that most of the people whom you are accusing of being Indiancyber agents on RAW payroll couldn’t tell you who the head of RAW is without doing a google search but they could tell you who the current and immediately prior ISI head were (because ISI plays such a big part in Pakistani decision making and o-one knows or cares about RAW in India.
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@Raj – USA: OUCH that one really hurt
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@sahar khan:
None of the Indians are so proud of their country and many of us know the problems. In turn you should be far more worried about religiuous extremism that is devouring your country. Religious evil is far more dangerous than poverty and power loss!!!
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What I do not understand is why there a legion of people trying to educate Mr. Tanvir Khan. Do you think he is not aware of what reality is? I am sure as a diplomat, he has access to much information. Whether he understands the implications of truth, or whether he refuses to believe the information in international media is for him, and his delusional self to decide. No body can educate these people, because if there was a way to bring knowledge to Pakistanis in high position, Pakistan would not be in the sad situation it is in. I say cheer up Mr. Tanvir Khan. Carry on, because you are not hurting any body, and only bringing ridicule to yourself and your people who let you rise to the high positions you achieved.
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