Not always greener on the other side: Obsession with Indian model not healthy

Published: February 20, 2012

‘For example, in India …’ is a popular prefix among many Pakistanis. DESIGN: JAMAL KHURSHID

KARACHI: 

As a strong supporter of close relations with India, and nurturing the dream of next time travelling by land from Karachi to Dacca, and on the GT road built by Sher Shah Suri to savour the common historical and cultural heritage, I believe my Pakistani brethren need a reality check when comparing our two countries.

In order to progress we need to seek the objective truth.

First, there is really no comparison between India and Pakistan.  Pakistan was cutout of India in fragments, to form a completely new entity 64 years ago. We had no; institutions, universities, bureaucracy, military, hardly any industry, and not even an airline or our own currency; when we achieved independence. India had all these and much more, functioning since ages. Delhi had been seat of power for centuries with complete infrastructure. We had to build our capital from scratch. India’s population is six times and land area more than four times that of Pakistan. It is at least six times bigger in almost every respect, and probably hundred times in the number of PhDs, it produces, just to give an example.

No doubt, the last decade has pushed India to the centre of the world stage because of impressive economic progress, market size and sustained democracy. Its huge military has enhanced its appeal to global interests. Its tourism and film industries further reinforced its international image. However, there is still another side of shining India that is usually overlooked by awestruck outsiders, especially Pakistanis.

According to an Oxford University study, ‘55 percent of India’s population of 1.1 billion, or 645 million people (three times the size of Pakistan), are living in poverty. While poverty in Africa is often highlighted, there was more acute poverty in India than many African countries combined. Poverty in eight Indian states—Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, and West Bengal—exceeded that of the 26 poorest African countries. The poverty level among India’s so-called Scheduled Tribes is 81.4%.

Successive Indian governments led by Congress and the Hindu supremacist Bharatiya Janatha Party (BJP) are responsible for economic policies that have boosted the profits of big business and the wealth of a tiny layer at the expense of the working class and rural poor.

By focusing on a broader range of factors, the Oxford University study has highlighted the continuing lack of basic facilities for the majority of the Indian population. Governments at the national and state levels have failed to provide even the most rudimentary assistance for hundreds of millions of people.

As a result of the lack of health care and food, 61 million children in India are stunted, the largest figure for any country, according to a Unicef report. The Financial Express commented that: “The wealth amassed by Indian billionaires—estimated at $340.9 billion by Forbes magazine — is nearly 31% of the country’s total GDP. This gives them nearly three times more weight in the economy than their American counterparts and over ten times of those in China. The GDP share of Indian billionaires’ wealth is more than four times of the global average.”

In India’s financial capital of Mumbai, more than six million desperately poor people eke out an existence in the slums. Mumbai’s gleaming skyscrapers that symbolise India’s economic growth sit alongside makeshift hovels.

India’s business elite likes to justify their position in society on the basis of their own personal initiative, acumen and drive. In reality, their wealth is the product of the exploitation of the country’s huge reserves of cheap labour and depends on the continued impoverishment of the rest of the population. This worsening social divide will inevitably produce a rebellion against the appalling conditions created by profit system and the ruling elite that defend and benefit from it.

The purpose here is not to demean one country in order to cover-up weakness of the other, but to objectively evaluate the strengths and weakness of both, so that we could arrive at realistic goals for cooperation and mutual benefit.

Both India and Pakistan have deep-rooted problems but not necessarily identical in nature. Therefore, while we can certainly learn a great deal from each other because of our shared background, we cannot blindly follow the other in every sphere. We have our own strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats, and must assess them in our own original way to move forward.

The contributor writes on socioeconomics and has a background in trading and exports in the private sector.

Published in The Express Tribune, February 20th, 2012.

on Twitter, become a fan on Facebook

Reader Comments (164)

  • shiasishia
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:28AM

    minorities are better protected as well.Recommend

  • Amir
    Feb 20, 2012 - 4:15AM

    Pointless article.

    Indian model should be called a failure only when it stops showing progress. But India is progressing. There is poverty in India because enough time hasn’t been given to this Indian model to prove itself. It’s been only 20 years since Indian economic liberalization occurred (1991) and only in the last 10 years has India enjoyed high GDP growth. Give India one more decade and then criticize all you want.

    And comparing India with Africa doesn’t make sense since India has 200 million more people than the entire population of Africa. Stop talking in absolutes.

    Recommend

  • Ashvinn
    Feb 20, 2012 - 4:32AM

    I agree with most of the points raised by you, except your saying that somehow china is better then India. China at the same stage killed to forcefully their citizens lands. As for poverty you should have visited southern India to understand Indian growth I am from a poor family but was given to access to good education when we couldn’t pay our basic bills we didn’t have money to get my father’s illness, mind you all this poverty was not lack of education, my father was Mcom, MBA. It was more lack of honest opportunities, but when I finished my education I got immediately a good job there were industries, where would I have earned my living if there were industries. Yes therer are corrupt in India so does the whole world, we are still a poor country, trust we are catching up fast, becoz people like you help understand our weakness.

    Recommend

  • muwattil
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:09AM

    This just sounds like making excuses. Pakistan inherited as much as India did but never had democratic institutions. Sure India has problems, but Pakistan’s problems are deep rooted and not economic.

    Recommend

  • 5Rivers
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:13AM

    An eye-opening and an excellent piece of work Mr. Piracha!

    Recommend

  • Ali Tanoli
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:15AM

    very true picture of india thank u sir…

    Recommend

  • Yash
    Feb 20, 2012 - 6:00AM

    The author has presented some good arguments. However let me present the other side.

    After Independence, for many years, Pakistanis were economically better off. On per capita basis, Pakistan has more land. In 1950, India’s GDP per capita was $597 vs $650 for Pakistan. Today the GDP per capita (PPP) for India is $3703 while for Pakistan it is $2791. Thus Pakistan is now lagging significantly.

    The Gini coefficients for the two countries, which measures disparity, are 37 for India and 33 for Pakistan. They are about equal, although Pakistan has slightly less disparity. For comparison it is 41 for USA and 42 for China.

    The absolute number of poor is a meaningless measure. A larger country will obviously have more.

    Truth is, both India and Pakistan are poor nations and need to work to create more opportunities for their citizens. The lack of trade across the border reduces the opportunities for both. The military expenditure (which is much higher in Pakistan as a fraction of the GDP, 3.2% vs 2.5% for India) reduces the funds available for education, health etc.

    Recommend

  • lucknow nabob
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:02AM

    … if you people get a closer experience and interface with Real India … rather than the Showcase Version … I.e. outside filmi version, advertising … showcase cities … you will see nothing to carp about … it is tragic how the 1% have serially abandoned the 99% to fend for themselves in garbage heaps, grinding poverty and nineteenth century civic facilities …

    … India is a big truck (decorated, painted and polished to look world-class) to impress iIndians and other into a make-believe Shining India … whereas, it is fitted with a puny, rickshaw engine (economy) … which has no hope of pulling the country to the Human Development that the 99% deserve … so, for a long time to come, India is destined to continue to under-perform well below its potential. while the crowing by 1% will continue … even the Tipping Point is nowhere in sight …

    … everything in India is world class … until you touch it, feel it … and use it … poor quality products and services passed off by the Politico-Business-Media class to the hapless poor in the guise of Made in India …

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:04AM

    Excellent article. Very poignant.

    Recommend

  • Ali Tanoli
    Feb 20, 2012 - 8:13AM

    Here in America we have seen and witniced some thing very unusual media can make sadam
    a super hero to zero in one week and same way american media trying very hard to potray india and china and russia a super power hahahahahah in reallty they are nothing more than pony and lama powers…

    Recommend

  • Hindu Indian
    Feb 20, 2012 - 8:13AM

    This article was better suited in “The Nation” as it is very “educative” in explaining the situation India currently is in. Nobody for that matter of fact claims that India is perfect (that would be absurd) , but one thing is certainly sure Mr Imtiaz Piracha, the grasses on the eastern side is surely greener

    Recommend

  • Feb 20, 2012 - 8:22AM

    Your whole article in on the basic premise that India’s poverty level is so high and possibly with a suggestion that things are not improving for them, but only a select few.

    Just to burst your bubble here is what the UN thinks about it in its report about Millennium Development Goals.

    http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/MDG2011AsiaEN.pdf

    It goes onto say, “In Southern Asia, however, only India, where the poverty rate is projected to fall from 51 per cent in 1990 to about 22 per cent in 2015, is on track to cut poverty in half by the 2015 target date.”

    So, the average rate of India since 1991 of around 6% has led India to cut its poverty levels by half. What will be the average rate of growth over the next 10 years or 20 years? Its expected to be around 8%!

    India will halve its poverty in the next 10 years alone.

    Indian model is the only model worth emulating in Pakistan’s neighborhood. To say anything else is only ignorance and sheer stupidity.

    Recommend

  • Feb 20, 2012 - 8:34AM

    @Sheheryar:
    @5Rivers:
    @lucknow nabob:
    @Ali Tanoli:

    The problem with some Pakistanis is that they believe anything which seems to degrade India. But, sorry to burst your bubble, the whole premise of the article is wrong.

    The author says 55% of the population is living in poverty. But, UN and World Bank say otherwise. UN puts it at 22%+ while WB slightly higher.

    But, the point is not how high the poverty is, but how fast it is declining. We have the answer in the UN Development Report. It goes,“In Southern Asia, however, only India, where the poverty rate is projected to fall from 51 per cent in 1990 to about 22 per cent in 2015, is on track to cut poverty in half by the 2015 target date” Do re-read it again. In South Asia India is the only Country to achieve such growth and reduce poverty by HALF!

    http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/MDG2011AsiaEN.pdf

    Here, are the figures of WB to back up my assessment.

    http://data.worldbank.org/country/india

    If you truly believe that a system which is cutting poverty by half every decade(as it is expected to do now with a growth of 8%) is faulty then one has to really question your intellect.

    Recommend

  • sarmad
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:11AM

    haters gonna hate ! What a remarkable piece of information! I have to do this everyday with a bunch of newbies around me ! You the man Piracha !Recommend

  • swet
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:24AM

    @Amir: author must give explanation of the point raised by you or accept that he missed this simple and common fact about india,if he is gracious so. . having 17% of world population,with all its huge diversity this country needs one or two more decade to prove itself. but i agree with writer as far as envying an other country blindly without looking at one’s own weaknesses and strengths.

    Recommend

  • wise counsel.
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:25AM

    fact remains, pakistanis still think that the grass is greener on India’s side because although a multitude of issues like the author mentioned exists, the Indian’s are the happiest lot in the world because of their liberal thinking and secular status. The author would do well if he concentrates on negatives of paksitan whose economic,religious and foreign policies seems doomed and no amount of show casing their so called elite society to the world can undermine the basic fanatical attitude of the multitudes in all spheres.Recommend

  • gp65
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:52AM

    Your premise that Pakistan has some strengths that may be weaknesses for India and conversely India has some strengths that maybe weaknesses for Pakistan is valid.

    In India we do refer to the fact that Bangladesh and Nepal have been more successful in reducing infant mortality compared to India. Due to this realization there has been some focus in the last 2-3 years and the pace of improvement has increased. Likewise, the literacy rate in Sri Lanka is something that serves a s a benchmark for India. There also has been a lot of discussion lately regarding higher percentage of hunger in India than its neighbours e.g. Pakistan, Bangladesh and policy makers have focused on introducing a food security bill to address the issue.

    There is no harm in looking to neighbours (not just India but Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc.) for those areas which are weaknesses i Pakistan but maybe strength in other countries. Yet you seem to think that is undesirable and a problem. Why so?

    If healthy competition leads to improved quality of life for citizens, where is the harm?

    Recommend

  • gp65
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:57AM

    @lucknow nabob: ” India is a big truck (decorated, painted and polished to look world-class) to impress iIndians and other into a make-believe Shining India … whereas, it is fitted with a puny, rickshaw engine (economy)”

    I notice that you have put this exact same statement in atleast 5 different columns whether it applies or not.
    Moderators,
    Anti -India statements are fine as long as they are relevant t but the same statement in a discussion on Balochistan, on space program for Pakistan, on science studies in Pakistan etc. does not make sense.

    Recommend

  • arjun
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:06AM

    TRUTH SHINES.
    First Pakistan’s main problem IS lack of leaders in every area!!!
    Just look at this article-it tells how deep antiindian prejudice runs in Pakistans society.
    Dear Author-what are facts? Those that are true -not manufactured!!!
    You say Pakistan did not inherit institutions and structures-what a shame to lie to onself.
    Pakistan was one of the asian economic tigers in 1970s-so what happened thereafter? We know the answer.
    Why do not you mention that Pakistan had single religion (after creating land only for muslims)
    and now has 97% muslims-so that should MAKE governance far easier than India.COMMON SENSE!!!
    The GDP of Pakistan was higher THAN India till 1975-yet today Pakistan is failed-WHY????
    India was burdened with povery and multiple religions-yet look where it is today. Lie at your own cost because future and present will not change until you admit that things were screwed.
    The single incident that placed India as leader is tolerance in society.One only needs to read every day’s newspaper since 1995 -to know where Pakistan is in that regard.
    Forget about emulating India’s model-Pakistan just cannot do it even if it tries.
    Secular societies just will not work for Islamic societies and read history to know this.The misery of confusion and religious fundamentalism therefore continues…Recommend

  • Adeel
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:29AM

    Dear Author, the main reason why many in pakistan mainstream media have fallen to “envy india” trap is just the sustained democracy in India. Most supporters of democracy in this side of the try to put the blame of pakistan’s failure to keep up with India on the military governments ignoring that it was during that time the whatever economic growth we had took place (irrespective of how but the indicators were positive). I believe it was during the early to mis 2000s when the india actually managed to overtake pakistan. otherwise even with our disasterous experience with democracy and the economic suicides of Bhuttos we surely lived better lives than our nieghbours across the borders!

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:39AM

    Brutel doll…. first link is not working….the second link u provided is just a slap on your own face…see the % on access to sanitation and simple facilities and compare it with Pakistan. Similarly compare the poverty. Other projections ur talking about is a UN projection…. How govt of India would distribute the wealth depends upon them Idiot!. Projections are always myth and will remain a myth…heard about Asian tigers?

    Recommend

  • Kashmiri Khan
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:54AM

    I’m 22 years old. just graduated last year in June. I work in an MNC, owns a 1bhk flat in New Delhi. This country has given so much to me.
    And it’s not just me, It’s the same with the other 2500 students who graduated with me in 2011.
    We all have a LIFE here, thanks to my country, India!
    So much has changed in last 20 years, after India became an open economy. So much has changed in my lifetime, leave that of my parents. and we, the new generation, are adapting well to it
    See what happens in the next 20 years!
    TRADE HAS NEVER RUINED ANY COUNTRY!! :)).

    Recommend

  • shailesh
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:55AM

    india is huge . as the population is great no. of poor will be more. its been only 20 yr since economic liberalisation. give it 20 more years , you will see the difference. people are waking up about many problems like corruption, security etc. it will take time.
    india has 6 major religions, more than 1000 languages, 6000 caste,
    still world feels safe to invest in india.
    india is magic!

    Recommend

  • Vasanth Pai
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:06AM

    For the poor people the problems are the same in any country including the USA where the blacks live in abject poverty and even whites are jobless and have taken out their anger on the Wall Street bankers the infamous 1% who own 99% of the wealth. This is basically the evil of capitalism which is reaching its nadir in this century. What we need is an honest form of communism ( not the type which failed in USSR) The workers and peasants of the world should rise in revolt and force the rich to behave or else face the consequences which the Czars and the white russians did in early 20th century after the October revolution. Communism is dead but not buried yet. It can rise from the grave in a renewed avatar and prove to be a panacea for the suffering masses of the world irrespective of colour of skin, race or religion. Karl Marx and Engels were visionaries. What they predicted cannot be wrong. Ultimately capitalism will be buried six feet below the ground. Then only can the poor of the world breathe in peace. Inquilab Zindabad

    Recommend

  • Rakib
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:13AM

    The Author promises more than he delivers when he hopes to “objectively evaluate the strengths and weakness“. There is hardly any analysis of ‘strengths‘ of India much less the opportunities & threats. Apart from providing a perspective of minor academic value, the laundry list of India’s ‘weaknesses’ will not benefit a Pakistani reader beyond providing some relief due to Schadenfreude (the pleasure of others pain).

    Neither emotional apologists nor irrational critics of India are of any practical use really to Pakistan. Much more can be learnt by studying professionally (a) whatever that India did well in the last decade and (b) whatever plans that India has to do better in near future. Here,”India” is mentioned only as example since that is the subject of the essay;it could be China, South Korea, Malaysia, UAE or any other among the many that may be worth a study from Pak pov.

    Recommend

  • joy
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:17AM

    Respected author

    I am an Indian....after reading your article, i came across a column by Dr Hoodbhooy elesewhere in the same newspaper...

    Just do me a favour sir, if you will. Read the first two paragraphs of Dr Hoodbhoy’s column…..

    I appreciate the fact that when Pakistan was born..it was short of infrastructure et al…….but you seem to have forgotten to mention that soon after independence, you chose to ask for money from ” you know who” while we asked them to help us build institutions like MIT……………

    therein lies the difference Sir

    Regards

    Recommend

  • abdulazeez
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:48AM

    mr; Imtiaz piracha; we use our own money for development…etc, not a begged money

    Recommend

  • Vinayak
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:53AM

    @Author

    India’s business elite likes to justify their position in society on the basis of their own personal initiative, acumen and drive. In reality, their wealth is the product of the exploitation of the country’s huge reserves of cheap labour and depends on the continued impoverishment of the rest of the population.

    Don’t you see, if it were not for the ‘elite’, the poor would be even worse off without jobs! It is a inherent socialist tendency to blame the rich for the misery of the poor. In truth the people whom you call exploiters are the driving force behind the economy. They create most jobs, they pay bulk of the taxes. Sure, they do not pay their employees more than they have to. But, would anybody not do the same.

    Recommend

  • Zeta
    Feb 20, 2012 - 12:38PM

    @shiasishia:
    That got to be biggest Joke of century,
    Remember Assam, Bihar, Orrissa, Mumbai, Naxalites, Kashmir, Khalistan, Gujarat massacre and countless others which aren’t reported. The discrimination within hindus let alone minorities. untouchables. Take a glimpse from a link below and read their comments. How much they hate their own muslim citizens.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Saffron-brigade-halts-Muslim-realty-deals-in-Gujarat/articleshow/11907061.cms

    Recommend

  • Truth Teller
    Feb 20, 2012 - 12:45PM

    Useless Article!

    Recommend

  • sarita talwai
    Feb 20, 2012 - 1:14PM

    India has so many problems.Problems I guess any developing nation with a large population and corrupt leaders will face.But what I also see is a lot of hope and a quiet assurance that hardwork and education can change lives.My daily help has completed high school, can read and write English,is a trained seamstress and beautician too.

    She is confident that her son will work in an office as an engineer or something akin to that.When I listen to her talk I am I amazed by her spirit and zest and I will do all I can to make her dream come true.

    It is important that all of us who are fortunate enough to be educated and earning well, are sensitive to the needs and aspirations of those who work for us and help them in every way.After all it is not just the govt or the corporates who have social responsibilities.

    Recommend

  • Homa
    Feb 20, 2012 - 1:41PM

    @Imtiaz Piracha:
    @PakTiger:
    Only one major difference at the time of independence — you inherited/choose religion, we inherited/choose common sense and brains. This choice took us in opposite directions. Look where we are today and look how you have become another ethiopa or somalia.

    Recommend

  • chef
    Feb 20, 2012 - 2:27PM

    East or West Madhuri Dixit is the best

    Recommend

  • IndianMuslim
    Feb 20, 2012 - 2:35PM

    Please don’t follow us on eradicating polio in Pakistan.

    Recommend

  • An_Indian
    Feb 20, 2012 - 2:35PM

    The article probably is addressing to the Pakistanis in general appealing them not to blindly seek the Indian model for Pakistan and its “typical” problems. I would urge Pakistan not to even consider the Indian model for emulation because for the last 60 years or so you have grown up as quite different human beings from what an Indian is. The Indian model is non-compatible with Pakistan. The reasons is simple. Indian model is based on open, modern and secular values which Pakistan just could not embrace in 60 years. Moreover Pakistan being a national security state cannot be as much welfare oriented as a welfare state like India can be. So the socio-cultural setting is completely different. For Pakistan defense of the state is the most actively pursued job by the government while for India the main job of the government is development and improvement of quality of life. We have actually grown up to be very different beings.

    Recommend

  • Feb 20, 2012 - 2:37PM

    India isn’t a perfect model, but it is doing far better than we are in almost every way.

    Try focusing on progress, instead of squabbling over how to achieve perfection. That’s always a better approach. There’s absolutely no shame in learning from a system that’s yielding better results.

    That’s what the British did when they studied and adopted our irrigation methods, and then improved them further.They didn’t get all jingoistic and develop deathly allergies to non-British systems…they took lessons wherever lessons were to be found.

    Recommend

  • IndianMuslim
    Feb 20, 2012 - 2:40PM

    The number of problems facing Pakistan and its leadership are – even under normal circumstances – daunting: 177 million people, 60 per cent of them living on less than $2-a-day, with child labour a common site.

    Your PM to Al Jazeera

    Recommend

  • ahmed
    Feb 20, 2012 - 2:57PM

    Haha… even so called pseudo-educated in pakistan loves to bash india…. he must be very frustrated while writing the article.. I can show you worst reports about India.. This called “selective perception” in psychology.

    You wold definitely get large no of accolades for “exposing India” but you are only harming your own country’s interest by doing so.

    Recommend

  • shahid
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:00PM

    The author says that “Pakistan had nothing at the time of independence”… it’s a historic lie.

    Highly prejudiced and stereotypical article about India.

    Recommend

  • Salman Raza
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:01PM

    What are so many indians doing on this website anyway. This is a pakistani paper so we will write such articles. Our comments are never aird on indian papers. All u indians just attack pro pakistan articles like vultures get a life yaar. If india is sooo great stop goin to australia!!!

    Recommend

  • shaheb ali
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:08PM

    A typical pakistani article which always starts from 1947… haha these guys are still dreaming about independence .. :)

    Recommend

  • meekal ahmed
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:28PM

    I think there are many who DO know about the dark side of “India Shining” and it is not a pretty picture.

    Recommend

  • AK47
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:30PM

    One more thing, no suicide bombing in India.

    Recommend

  • Indian
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:33PM

    @Ali Tanoli:
    ” american media trying very hard to potray india and china and russia a super power” – Hmmm… Let me see… Each Pakistani kid born today carries a 3.5 lakh debt burden at birth, Pakistan’s economy is in shambles, US violated Pakistani airspace as if it is some’@$%#’, China fears to even invest in Pakistan (5 billion $ trade with Pakistan vs 60 billion $ with India), Pakistan has no space programme, is now the epicentre of world terror…. What is funny is a guy from such a country (or is it one??) who is settled in US is talking crap about India when India is now a trillion dollar economy, fast progressing to be an additional pole to the world… Whats more? The president of your adopted country is now doing rounds in India so that he can go USA and tell people over there that he has fetched some good deals in India.. That my dear is the making of a super power… If i were to talk about super powder, I would have spoken of Pakistan…

    Recommend

  • Indian
    Feb 20, 2012 - 3:57PM

    @ All Indians :- Don’t pay attention to these India bashing :– Land lords of pakistan are angry bcoz people from other province have started asking for their fare share..

    Recommend

  • BlackJack
    Feb 20, 2012 - 4:43PM

    The report that is being referred to places the percentage of population below the poverty line in Pakistan at 51% – there appears to be no great difference, despite the fact that India has lagged behind Pakistan for the first 4 decades after independence. There is no argument in the fact that in terms of providing clean water, santitation and nutrition to our population, India has a long way to go. However, it is ridiculous to say that India’s example is not worth following (for poorer countries), because the burden of the poor on India (and efforts required for alleviating the same) are of a scale not experienced anywhere in the world. McKinsey’s 2007 article on the next big spenders indicated that the Indian middle class will grow from 50 mn in 2005 to 583 mn in 2025, and another 291 mn will have been pulled out of poverty if the growth rate had remained the same as in the 90′s. Clearly, there is some benefit that is trickling down the deprived classes, regardless of whether inefficiencies in distribution of income are resulting in a higher Gini coefficient. Note: We have no need to earn Pakistan’s respect or prove that we are growing – the world is testament to this. This post is merely testament to the systematic schadenfreude that is nurtured in Pakistan.

    Recommend

  • its the economy stupid!
    Feb 20, 2012 - 4:48PM

    The grass indeed seems greener on the other side. However ask any Indian, and he sees virtually nothing that India needs to emulate from the pakistan side.
    Ofcourse India has a lot of poor, but it is a 1.2 billion people country. True it has poor equal to three times pakistans population. Equaly it has a middle class THREE TIMES that of pakistans population.
    Ofcourse India needs( and is doing) huge investments in social infrastructure( education, healthcare) as well as physical infrastructure. Once you grow at 8 to 9%, you generate the surplusses to invest and eliminate poverty. China is doing it, and Indias need to learn from them and will do it too. just a matter of time!

    Recommend

  • wise counsel
    Feb 20, 2012 - 4:58PM

    @Salman Raza:
    there is a “little india” in almost every welcoming country of the world contributing towards its economic progress and participating in all fields of life.Merging within the system humbly in order to make this world a better place.Australia is no exception.

    Recommend

  • Indian muslim
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:14PM

    Yes we are poorer than north panjabis of pakistan but what about other provinces ??..

    Your north panjabi elites land lords are looting the resources of other provinces.. This is also the biggest truth of pakistan..Recommend

  • Mayank
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:25PM

    @Salman Raza
    If india is sooo great stop goin to australia!!!
    Dude, forget about Indians going to Australia for jobs, it’s Americans who are coming find jobs in India!! See the following news report which is NOT compiled by NDTV or Doordarshan, but reported by the Russian TV. India has reached to a level where reverse migration is taking place!!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6JueegyPqs&feature=related

    @Author
    Yes, there are millions of poor in India, but their number is declining rapidly. In today’s globalized world you cannot hide anything from the world. Recommend

  • vasan
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:45PM

    To all my friends in Pakistan. We, in India, are quiet happy to follow current model in India and we have lots of parties who are willing to take the govt to task if they think that the national interests are hurt. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. It is probably our way of living. We help or at least try to help other countries as well when they are in need and we have also asked help from other countries during our emergencies in the past. Pl for heavens sake, do not follow the Indian model if u think it does not suit you. Your priorities are diff with Religion and Security occuping 90% of your thought process. With India as only a bashing target, there is no need to study, compare or even emulate India. You can go on bashing India as in your imagination. Good luck.

    Recommend

  • Sobriquet
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:47PM

    @Imtiaz Piracha: The GT road was not buiild by Sher Shah Suri. Its origins go back to around the 3rd century BC, when it originally joined Taxila to Patliputra under the Mauryan empire, and later the empire extended it to Bengal—long before Sher Shah Suri’s time.

    Recommend

  • Naresh
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:47PM

    @lucknow nabob aka @lucknowvati
    .
    So you have read about India’s Automobile Industry i.e. Annual Production is nearly Twice the number of Pakistan’s Automobiles on the Road but over Twice the number of Pakistan’s Registered Automobiles (The Indian Automobile Production Figures do not include “Tractors” but the Pakistan Automobiles on the Road do not. However the number of Pakistani Registered Automobiles does not include Tractors)
    .
    Now which other Industry would you like to discuss about. How about Steel?

    Recommend

  • ukmuslim
    Feb 20, 2012 - 5:51PM

    According to an Oxford University study….

    @author
    please provide the link for this study.

    Recommend

  • Uday
    Feb 20, 2012 - 6:14PM

    We indian never denied that we are still a poor country …but we are developing fast.. we have space programme,we will send x-ray telescope to space,we will launch mission to mars and venus,we will send robot to moon,making bio-metric database of every citizen and helping dozen of other country to make data of their own citizen,we have many scheme for poor,we with china are partner in worlds largest telescope,we are partner in fusion reacter research,we are producing cost effective medicine for whole world,we are called back office of the world,some of largest corporation are governed by indians like pepsico,citi,adobe…etc,we have fastest cruise missile in the world,our dozen other cities will have metro rail and mono rail system,we have mission in polar region of earth,we are on of the largest producer of doctors,P.hd holder,we are also producing large number of research papers….and so on….but any pakistani people can’t say something like this for pakistan….

    thanks…

    Recommend

  • Hindu Indian
    Feb 20, 2012 - 6:33PM

    Adding to wat my Indian Brothers have said, we have poverty and sanitation problems but we are trying to make this country a better place and Insha-allah my kids will surely find this place a better place to live in than me.

    Recommend

  • lucknow nabob
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:21PM

    @Hindu Indian. Let’s hope so … but frankly, can’t see it happening …

    Recommend

  • From Herat With Love
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:37PM

    There is hardly any difference between India and Pakistan. If any at all, the differences are marginal. In some things Pakistan is 20, while India is 19. In other cases its vice versa.

    Most people commenting here are arm-chair experts, who have never been to / have first hand exposure to each other’s countries.

    I agree with the author, for Pakistanis, India is not the correct benchmark. It needs to pick and set itself higher standards than its tired, groaning, breathless neighbour.

    Recommend

  • rd
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:37PM

    Funny artcile, I contradict few figure, believe is he or she took data from Oxford(=it can’t be true)- india do not have 55% of indian population living under poverty, let me tell u people in vialges live with great degree of comfort than in villages…….plus indian middle classes r doc/eng/mba- they r not poor- might not be millionaire….

    It would be better for you to think about Pak- a struggling country whose map will be changed in enxt 10-15 years(ref to baluch)…..so think about urself…n be urself- don’t be a liar like each n every pak…even Imran Khan is a big liar- lying won’t make him great leader

    Recommend

  • lucknow nabob
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:44PM

    @Naresh. Thanks for the data. Going by the relative sizes of the markets, Indian Automobile industry ought to be atleast 6 times that of Pakistan … not just double …

    A Thousand Apologies …

    Recommend

  • lucknow nabob
    Feb 20, 2012 - 7:46PM

    @gp65. Unfortunately … Truth is Bitter …

    A Thousand Apologies!

    Recommend

  • Grace
    Feb 20, 2012 - 8:05PM

    @Indian muslim: Perhaps you don’t understand that the majority of native Pakistanis, including myself really don’t care what is or isn;t happening in India because it is not our country. Yes most Muslim nations, including Pakistan are facing challenges but we believe in our own destiny which is separate from Sri Lanka or India or Burma. I think that the only people in Pakistan who are obsessed with events in India or comparing are the Muhajir migrants in Karachi who have family left behind in India. The rest of us don’t have any link with India and don’t care about Indians so please don’t get the impression that many Pakistanis care even. Peace to India and Burma and Brazil and China and Italy etc but Pakistan is my home and I care about it. I don’t need to compare it to any country especially India which has a different situation and history and were supported by British.

    Recommend

  • Anuj
    Feb 20, 2012 - 8:27PM

    stop bragging all the time about the number of poor in India to make yourself feel better…..coz you know that it doesnt help…even with all those poor and all those problems, India is far superior and developed….all you pakistanis do is to make excuses not to study, not to develop…to justify your wrong doings and your short comings……you just dont want to solve your problems and find solace in criticizing india……one sentence says it all……INDIA DOESNT ROAM AROUND WITH BEGGING BOWL IN THE WORLD>…….

    Recommend

  • Yash
    Feb 20, 2012 - 8:28PM

    @lucknow nabob:

    u never see it happening coz u dont want to…

    ur reply to the “automobile industry thing”….the guy said…..TWICE amount of ANNUAL production than the TOTAL automobiles in PAKISTAN…

    Recommend

  • well-wisher
    Feb 20, 2012 - 8:49PM

    see the glass half empty doesnt make any difference since India is moving forward though slowly but surely. It might take us two decades to uplift the poor but Insha-Allah we will achieve this objective. Sincerely wish that Pakistan takes a cue from India of its positives and not negatives and the author writes about the same in his next article. Recommend

  • kaalchakra
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:13PM

    Most excellent and truthful article. Pakistan needs an Islamic model suited to the genius of its own unique people. India is full of problems, and if you look at the the US and Europe, they are going down the drain. So Pakistan must (re)discover its own true path that can (re)make its people proud the way they were when they ruled the vast stretches of land from Spain to Indonesia and produced great men like Sher Shah Suri! (Re)discovery of that model ought to be Pakistan’s national priority at this time.

    Recommend

  • Ayesha Khan
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:20PM

    @lucknow nabob: “Thanks for the data. Going by the relative sizes of the markets, Indian Automobile industry ought to be atleast 6 times that of Pakistan … not just double …
    A Thousand Apologies …”

    You misunderstood. Total number of automobiles on Pak road (it means production of all past years) is half f what India produces in just one year. According to you, given the size of population, India’s auto production should be 6 times that of Pakistan – right? Well it is 17 times. Pak produces 1 million automobiles in a year and India prdouces 17 million automobiles in a year. Naresh had provided the links to India’s automobile production in an earlier blog where you had made the same statement about India.

    Recommend

  • kaalchakra
    Feb 20, 2012 - 9:44PM

    Ayesha Khan

    I am with our Nawab bhai on this. Having too many vehicles on roads creates disastrous problems – pollution, of life, weakening of human bonds throgh the dehumanizing experience of driving alone – the list is pretty long. A wrong model of transportation, probably reflective of an unequal society.

    Recommend

  • Ayesha Khan
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:07PM

    @kaalchakra: I can see your point of view but I do not think that is the point he was making. HE was saying that India produced just twice as many automobiles as Pakistan despite being 6 times as large and thus he was criticizing the Indian economy as a smoke and mirror economy. This is why I corrected him and stated that India produces 27 times as many not just twice as many automobiles asPakistan.

    Coming to your point about personalized transport versus mass public transport, I totally agree with you that mass public transport if it is reliable, frequent and accessible enough is the best option. In fact ALL large cities in India are very actively working on building/improving on their mass public transport. Also for intercity travel, you must be aware of how the Indian railway plays a big role in this transporting about a 100 times as many people daily as Pakistan railway does.

    Recommend

  • Harry Stone
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:20PM

    One has to make the assumption that what PAK is doing and has done is working. If this was the case it would be an example for other nations to follow. The fact that other nations are not following the PAK lead causes one to question if what PAK is doing is really working.

    What PAK is doing is an example of what other nations must avoid.

    Recommend

  • Anonymous
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:35PM

    @Ayesha Khan. Indian data is ‘incredible’ … please subtract the cycle rickshaws fro your so called automobile study …Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:43PM

    @ all Indian arm-chair experts (incl. those posing as Pakistanis) … kindly visit the Real India.

    The less said about Indian Rail, the better. Try taking a non-’showcase’ train India … a real nightmare …

    Recommend

  • Yash
    Feb 20, 2012 - 10:46PM

    @Anonymous:

    chill bro…even tractors are not included :)

    Recommend

  • Babloo
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:35PM

    It’s absolutely incorrect to say, Pakistan started from scratch. Pakistan inherited two big cities, Lahore ( which was jewel of Punjab under the british ) and port city Karachi. They inherited all the industries , railways that were in their territories. The army was also divided, Pakistan inheriting all the infrastructure , from roads to army cantonments to railways that fell in its territory. Also, Pakistan inherited all the wealth and property of Hindus and Sikhs who left Pakistan, who while were 25% of the population, owned more than 50% of wealth and property in W Pakistan before partition.
    Both the countries started their political system from scratch.
    India chose the democratic, secular model.
    Pakistan chose the religion inspired state model.
    The differences are there for all to see.

    Recommend

  • BlackJack
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:40PM

    @lucknow nabob:
    Nabob saab – read the post carefully. The Indian annual production of automobiles (this means cars produced every year) is more than the entire number of cars on the road in Pakistan (every single car). It is far more than 6 times in annual production – the numbers themselves should tell you that. A million apologies for helping you out in your math.

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 20, 2012 - 11:54PM

    @homa…. u guys didn’t do any miracle. everyone here is talking about Indian model :) ….infact there is no such model…. after Russia’s disintegration, the indian govt realized that they should liberalize the economy. Liberalizing the economy and letting the investment coming in is not an economic policy…. every country can do that. Bigger market, bigger size, cheap labor, access to neigbouring markets are all the reasons which MNC’s look for. Your FDI has been in services sector which is commendable “okay good”. u dont have a jack of export-oriented FDI. comparing with china is like comparing apples with oranges. Their economy is diversified! so many industries “u name it and they are there”! Making a fake Tata car doesn’t mean you are now in to manufacturing. Acquiring Jaguar, a failed brand for some indians is a sense of pride. But they dont knw the reason for its acquisition!…. it is, to impress indian to buy their own small car that tata has created and to learn the technology “which makes sense”……there is a harsh truth that india is home to half of the poverty of the world. no body can deny that…..anyways, India’s economy actually doesn’t have a model…. and here this article lack a bit in terms of calling it as a model…..yup China and countries like turkey has a model…….

    Recommend

  • Yash
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:05AM

    @PakTiger:

    making FAKE cars??….i can name ten chinese FAKE cars right away…dunno how many more exist…even costly chinese cars fail to pass european crash tests which a cheap tata car does with high grades
    Jaguar….the “FAILED” brand is now one of the most profitable brands…
    u dont want to take it as a model…dont…

    yeah u go the chinese way….censor every damn thing and show only the good picture to the world…

    see dude….there are goods and bads everywhere…u can never choose to have ONLY goods…

    indias economy actually doesnt have a model….yea right…thats why the world is so obsessed with indian and chinese economies i guess

    Recommend

  • nationalist baloch
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:21AM

    Recently, a colleague of mine, an Indian German NRi accompanying me was advised by an Indian Customs Official … To throw away his useless Indian passport, when he has a perfectly good German one …

    … great proof for India Shining fallacy …

    Recommend

  • Arijit Sharma
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:23AM

    @PakTiger: ” … anyways, India’s economy actually doesn’t have a model

    And THAT my dear sir – IS INDIA’s economic model – give people a free rein to do things as per their strengths. Recommend

  • lucknow nabob
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:23AM

    @Blackjack. Thousand apologies for spoiling your grandiose pipe-dreams; please subtract the number of cycle rickshaws from your so called, self proclaimed automobile study …

    Recommend

  • nationalist baloch
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:27AM

    Just wondered; if Indian economy is indeed doing so well, why are so many unemployed Indians spending their time sitting, whiling away time on the Internet … that too, on a Pakistani newspaper website?

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:38AM

    After the abject techno-commercial failure of TATA Nano … Indians have been recommended to revert to the erstwhile TATA Man-O … the cycle-rickshaw …

    Recommend

  • lucknow nabob
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:40AM

    @Yash. When you next happen to visit the Real India … don’t drive an Indian vehicle. Good Luck.

    Recommend

  • BlackJack
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:07AM

    @PakTiger:
    I pity you and the extent of your blinding hatred. The extent of research that you have needed to do to prove that the Indian model doesn’t work is itself a sign of the interest that India has attracted. While I concur that there is no sustainable Indian economic model as such (it is a services-led model of growth that needs to build manufacturing capability (like in China) to generate employment to urban migrants and an increasingly literate work force) – but there is a unique and harmonious Indian socio-political model that is rooted in our cultural ethos. You will never be able to appreciate this.

    Recommend

  • American Desi
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:07AM

    @Adeel: Please double check your facts. Just before the terror and tragedy of 9/11 Pakistan was on the brink of total collapse. Subsequent War on Terror by Bush threw a financial lifeline to Pakistan as Musharraf signed up Pakistan as a mercenary country (he’s duplicity is another matter for another day).

    Recommend

  • let there be peace
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:12AM

    good article. thanks for showing us the mirror. we indians should take such criticism seriously and work harder

    Recommend

  • Homa
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:12AM

    @Babloo:
    Exactly. Pakistan also inherited the elaborate canal system of west punjab which the britishers had built. Our east punjab did not have this kind of advantage. We built our canals and dams ourselves and created a miraculous green revolution. Today india is a major producer, exporter and donor of food, unlike pakistan which has to import almost everything, including many basic food items.
    @pakTiger: yes, we did accomplish many miracles. And we will continue to do even greater things now. Our foundations have grown very solid and strong. We will keep marching ahead with confidence in all fields. We will be touching the sky in the next 15-20 years while you will not even be able to show balochistan as part of your map.

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:26AM

    The World is obsessed with Chinese economy i do agree on that. Obsessed With India give me a break dear……look at the statistics for a time being my little indian fellow….. your investments and your GDP is no way even near to Turkey as well. Talking about ur own tata car! u guys are using chinese made engines for that. Making a body of the car doesnt make u qualify for being a manufacturing country… We also have the same car….made by adam motors but the engine is imported!…….and thats useless!

    Recommend

  • Vagabond
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:57AM

    I love the comments part; brilliant, constructive discussion!

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 2:40AM

    In india’s economic model…i think muslims are not even allowed to buy or own a property?

    Recommend

  • Harry Stone
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:20AM

    @nationalist baloch:

    It is possible they are so rich they do not have to work…

    Recommend

  • Zeta
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:32AM

    These nationalist insecure indians love their country so blindly i wonder why don’t they shag it too

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:42AM

    Blackjack India will attract and continue to do so……No body is denying that….. My comment is…… when Tata claim to have nano as a 100% manufactured Indian car then why the engines are being imported????? i think the heart of automobile is an engine?……. secondly, socio-cultural or political aspect you are talking abt is not a big thing…. probably if we had the same size, we cud have managed it as best or may even better than u guys….. so this point is out of question……. ur size and market is the main attraction whereas chinese and turkish economies are sites for actual manufacturing etc….. just look at the amount of FDI coming in these countries and you will come to know where India is standing……similarly look at brazil’s sector wise flow of FDI….they are also brilliant

    Recommend

  • Deepwater
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:43AM

    Pakistan is in a good place at the moment. It does not need to emulate anyone. Stay where you are. Don’t change a thing.

    If you elect Imran Khan, all your wildest dreams are going to come true.

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:59AM

    Homa i accept the challenge – lets see these 15 – 20 yrs ur talking about…… Challenging the country of our geographical size means how capable and important and courageous we are…… u march ahead and we pray u get the required results……we also don’t want a weak opposition to counter with….goodluck!

    Recommend

  • Ali Tanoli
    Feb 21, 2012 - 4:15AM

    @An Indian
    please come out of closet man and see the reallty and face the truth more indians lived in U.S.A and other part of the world than we pakistanis and did u know world biggest money chore are in india and there money in swiss banks and crruption and tax thieves billionares
    are in india with proud of stealing and no govt can do any thing is this a democracy and world
    largist capitalist country america has more debt than there economy and pakistan is just a peanut debt ………..

    Recommend

  • Truthbetold
    Feb 21, 2012 - 5:44AM

    @BruteForce:

    “The author says 55% of the population is living in poverty. But, UN and World Bank say otherwise. UN puts it at 22%+ while WB slightly higher. “

    I think the author’s numbers come from many human rights analysts who use $2 per day as a base figure to define poverty. However, the UN number you mention and a host of other international financial institution numbers are based on more realistic measures of around $1 per day.

    Remembering that the $2 number is per capita, a family of four would be making $240 a month or Rs.11,800 per month. In major cities, this in insufficient to live a lower middle class life but, this family will not be destitutes who can’t afford two meals a day. Actually, in rural villages and smaller cities, this family will indeed be able to live a middle-class life, though rather spartan. So, the use of $2 as the poverty defining base is rather misleading. The 22% number is closer to the truth in defining utter biting poverty.

    Having said that, the author of this article is right about the huge inequality in the Indian society. Though the distribution of fruits of the rapid growth of economic growth has not all been equal, it cannot be denied that a huge percentage of the population has moved from utter poverty into the middle/ lower middle classes.

    It is true that a huge number of people are still without adequate sanitation facilities, clean water, proper healthcare and other necessities. While India is still very much a third world country with significant shortfall in human development indicators, the good news is that the country is indeed making significant progress.

    In 1947, the dire poverty rate was 85%. In fact, thirty-five years ago, the poverty rate was 55% compared to 22% today. By any means, that is progress and is getting better, but more needs to be done to reduce the inequalities.

    See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PovertyinIndia

    Recommend

  • Cynical
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:00AM

    @Pak Tiger

    FYI, there is a Muslim (Indian) who is now under investigation for allegedly stacking a few millions of US$ (read dollars not ruppees) in swiss banks.On a brighter side Azim Premji is one of the richest Indian enterprenour/businessman who has donated couple of millions of US$ (repeat US$) in charity, mostly to institute of learnings (not to be confused with madrassas).

    Recommend

  • Babloo
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:36AM

    The richest Muslim in India, Mr Azim, is richer than top 10 richest Pakistani muslims put together.

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:38AM

    it is surprising but not shocking :) that the share of population living below $1.25 a day is 22.6% in Pakistan which is much less than India (41.6%) and Bangladesh (49.6%). Pakistan also has a lower percentage of people without having access to water and sanitation services i.e. 10% and 55% compared to India (12%/69%) but in Bangladesh only 47% of people
    don’t have access to sanitation. (UNDP, 2010).

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:40AM

    Cynical he is an indian regardless of being muslim or hindu….see! this is the problem with u guys…… u dont accept muslims to flourish there…. tell me why u dont allow muslims to own a property in ur country….. i mean indian muslims!

    Recommend

  • nationalist baloch
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:56AM

    @Harry Stone. Hypothetically yes, but knowing the Banya, not. If rich, the Banya would be in his treasury, counting money … when in poverty, Banya would go for Sanyaas.

    Recommend

  • Frustrated
    Feb 21, 2012 - 7:03AM

    India must be a very boring place. Or their newspapers may be uninteresting and substandard. Is that why most bored Indians spend time doodling on Pakistani newspaper websites?

    Pakistani media is definitely much more vibrant, open and free compared to the Indian one, which just panders to and toes the government line – a hark back to the soviet-socialist model days

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 7:58AM

    @babloo stop bragging abt the rich people u have…. this shows the income inequality !…Muslims are not allowed to own a property…..why????

    Recommend

  • Amjad
    Feb 21, 2012 - 8:27AM

    Judging by the number of Indians writing on this Pakistani site, there must be some serious insecurity in India! Also if India is doing do well, why do so many Indians want to run away to the West. Everywhere you go in Canada or the US middle class and educated Indians want to settle and get away from India. I’ve talked to many of them and they say all the hype about India is just that – hype. We all know the real agenda of some i the West is to build up India as a bulwark against China but despite all the help the Indians are getting, they can’t meet the challenge. I’ll believe India is developing when India stops being the number 1 source of immigration to Canada.

    Recommend

  • unbeliever
    Feb 21, 2012 - 8:41AM

    @PakTiger:
    i would like to know your source who told you that chinese engines are installed in tata cars.

    Recommend

  • unbeliever
    Feb 21, 2012 - 8:43AM

    @PakTiger:
    and why don’t you allow hindus and other non muslims the right to even exist.

    Recommend

  • Yash
    Feb 21, 2012 - 9:38AM

    @lucknow nabob:

    look dude….India has best of the things and worst of the things….pointing out that slums and poverty is real india and industries are delusional india is utterly naive…

    moreover u have no idea how some stupid corrupt people just get their names in below poverty line to get benefits from govt schemes etc…so forget that part..

    i thought the author has not written the article properly but looking at ur comments…i guess he was right at least acknowledging the growing india in first few lines

    Recommend

  • its the economy stupid!
    Feb 21, 2012 - 9:40AM

    @PakTiger:
    China’s GDP is almost USD 5 trillion. Indias GDP is almost 2Trillion. turkeys GDP is USD 800 billion.
    Indias manufacturing sector is almost as big as entire Turkish economy.
    Brazil and russia are commodity based with little manufacturing.
    In anycase, Pakistan must evolve its own model. there is little to learn from India, as we are completely different political -socio economic and secular model, and Pakistan is very different in the same.There is little that India needs to emulate from Pakistan. india can and is learning a lot from the chinese model.
    Best of luck to the pakistanis and their economy!

    Recommend

  • its the economy stupid!
    Feb 21, 2012 - 9:48AM

    @PakTiger:
    Who tells you muslims cant own property in India???? A lot of large real estate companies and developers are Muslims, including the Godrej group.
    After reading the blogs here, one comes to the conclusion that people on either side of the borders are very ignorant of the situation on the other side. Finally Jinnahs two nation theory is taking shape. In another two decades, India and Pakistan will be as different from each other as egypt and South africa.

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 9:53AM

    unbeliever correction Bosche of Germany and fiat etc……. u or i still cant make an engine ????? why?????

    Recommend

  • Feb 21, 2012 - 9:57AM

    @Sheheryar:
    “The less said about Indian Rail, the better. Try taking a non-’showcase’ train India … a real nightmare” – Please revisit your railway system. One needs to have a funtional transportation to ‘showcase’ in the first place and not the one where more than 80% of locomotives are dysfunctional!!
    Now let me give you some information about ‘The Indian Railways’ – Indian Railways has 114,500 kilometres of total track over a route of 65,000 kilometres and 7,500 stations. It has the world’s fourth largest railway network after those of the United States, Russia and China. The railways carry over 30 million passengers and 2.8 million tons of freight daily. It is the world’s second largest commercial or utility employer, by number of employees, with more than 1.36 million employees. As for rolling stock, IR owns over 240,000 (freight) wagons, 60,000 coaches and 9,000 locomotives.
    Revenue 98,000 crore (US$21.56 billion) (2010–11).

    Recommend

  • Feb 21, 2012 - 10:00AM

    @PakTiger:
    “tell me why u dont allow muslims to own a property in ur country”Would you please enlighten why is it that you people don’t let others own their religion???

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 10:03AM

    Unbeleiver come and see…. HINDU christian…. everyone is living in peace and can own a property…. now dont pinpoint particular media stunts or events….. i have several events to point out then, tata!

    Recommend

  • Feb 21, 2012 - 10:10AM

    @Amjad:
    Judging by the concern you are showing there should be serious insecurity with Pakistanis. This is only the beginning dude.. Chill out till the internet access in India reaches 400 million from the current 100 million. You see Pakistan not attractive to us so we go else where.. On the other hand extremists from everywhere find their ‘Jannat’ in Pakistan!
    “I’ve talked to many of them and they say all the hype about India is just that – hype”Come to India and see for yourself and do mind reading the article – Our boomin neighbour’ in this very newspaper… You will have your answer.
    “China but despite all the help the Indians are getting, they can’t meet the challenge”You wish!!! Wait and watch baby, wait and watch…
    “I’ll believe India is developing when India stops being the number 1 source of immigration to Canada”I believe Pakistan will start developing once it stops being the number 1 exporter of you know what….

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 10:43AM

    “@ITS the economy”…….thanks for the long essay! i was talking in terms of GDP growth and the annual FDI inflows of TURKEY….. go and check it….you will feel that jaw drop :D….

    Recommend

  • kasim.lahore
    Feb 21, 2012 - 10:44AM

    @Grace:

    True. Many times we feel this. Even my wife (Indian) compares this. Insha allah things will improve here also.

    Recommend

  • Indian
    Feb 21, 2012 - 11:59AM

    @PakTiger:
    “HINDU christian…. everyone is living in peace and can own a property…. “Oh!!! I see!! 15-20% minority at the time of independence has now come down to less than 1% out of living in peace or living in pieces!!!

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:05PM

    The Woes of Indian Muslims
    “India’s Muslim population is estimated at a staggering 180 million and constitutes roughly 15% of the country’s population, but Muslims living in India suffer economically, politically, and socially. That the country’s largest religious minority does not enjoy equality under the Indian democracy is a grave challenge to the basic values of democracy, secularism, and pluralism in the “world’s largest democracy.”

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/the-woes-of-indian-muslims

    This is what u call the respect for minorities????????

    Recommend

  • whoever
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:25PM

    @Author

    Your argument is age old argument . Old wine in new bottle . come and visit India to see the difference at grass root level…..

    Recommend

  • its the economy stupid!
    Feb 21, 2012 - 12:39PM

    @PakTiger:
    Again a half knowledge is worst than no knowledge.

    India GDP USD 2 trillion and Purchase power parity at USD 4.5 trillion
    Turkey GDP USD 800 billion and PPP basis USD 1.15 trillion.

    Indias GDP growth last three years is 9%, 8.5% 7%. Turkeys GDP growth is slightly less.

    FDI was USD 20.4 billion average from 2007 to 2011 in India, and was USD 20 billion in Turkey. However India has recieved over USD100 billion in FDI in capital markets thru stock market investments.

    Turkey is a very hardworking and good economic model. It is striving to enter the EU and focuses on Europe business. We in asia have are on the other hand far more focussed on Asia/EU and America.
    Pakistan must learn a lot from Turkey, perhaps emulate turkish model rather than the Indian model, which is in a very different league in size from both of them.

    Recommend

  • unbeliever
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:31PM

    @PakTiger:
    ok, i will not. but then tell me where are they.
    is any hindu or christian left in your country?
    well, i advise them to live peacefully, because the moment they try to demand some concessions from the govt. either they will get enlightenment by accepting islam. or they would……be no more.

    Recommend

  • unbeliever
    Feb 21, 2012 - 1:52PM

    @PakTiger:
    well i checked and i am unable to find any fact which should make my jaws drop. could you please provide us some links.

    and why this obsession with turkey. is it just because they are muslim country!

    well as far as i know they are quite ruthless when it comes to instilling secular values. and quite liberal too. and democratic as well. and you know they are just wannabe europeans. and in order to integrate with the EU they are even ready to kick their muslim roots.

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:01PM

    @Indian. When we discuss Pakistan Rail, we will go there too. However, the debate is that Indiando vvery little and show it to be a lot … misleading everybody, living a narcissist’s life .. following a mirage themselves … Indian Rail is not what it is claimed to be … even the ‘showcased’ version is no serious improvement over what was inherited.

    Please do visit the Real India when you can.

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 21, 2012 - 3:05PM

    @Indian. There are many who buy the Shining India myth … fortunately, there are many who see through the thin veneer of decoration …

    Do visit the Real India, if only occasionally.Recommend

  • Feb 21, 2012 - 4:06PM

    @PakTiger:
    “The Woes of Indian Muslims”There is no minority left in Pakistan anymore!! Due thanks your peaceful co-existence….. Sorry piecefull coexistence…

    Recommend

  • Rakib
    Feb 21, 2012 - 4:07PM

    @Sheheryar:

    Amazingly quite a few Pakistanis seem to recall the ancient slogan “Shining India“-something that even Indians have forgotten. It was a slogan coined just before general elections of 2004 by a political party of India (BJP) that was bidding for additional term. Not many were interested to “buy the Shining India myth“, knew Real India better than what Pakistanis know and BJP lost the election. It did not recover in 2009 also! Looks like the only buyers of this myth left in the world are Pakistanis whose single minded obsession seems to have inspired the original article here as a counterpoint.

    Recommend

  • ashok sai
    Feb 21, 2012 - 4:13PM

    @PakTiger:

    Countries ranking by GDP growth, India – 3 and Turkey – 18

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ListofcountriesbyrealGDPgrowthrate(latest_year)

    List of countries by received FDI

    Country Ranking, India – 22, Turkey – 37

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Listofcountriesbyreceived_FDI

    In 2011, India ventured into top 15 countries by FDI inflows.

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 21, 2012 - 5:51PM

    @Talib. Thanks for bringing it up. All who regularly experience India or are told to be impressed, continue to laugh at the incredulity of India …

    Recommend

  • Indian
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:45PM

    @Sheheryar:
    “There are many who buy the Shining India myth … fortunately, there are many who see through the thin veneer of decoration …”I know Pakistanis don’t buy.. You need to have money to buy stuff.. And you need to have ‘Ghairat’ not to beg…. Since you have ‘Ghairat’ (which is very obvious from your love hate relation with the US/’Kafirs’) and a lot of money!! Continue to do whatever you do best… Existing in eternal denial….. Its a sort of birth right i guess!!! Meanwhile we in India will continue our ‘Shining India Myth’ as the entire world seems to believe in it except off course the very scientific(!!!!) community of Pakistan!!

    Recommend

  • harish
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:49PM

    the comments of the pakistanis here reminds me of a tamil saying, which says some people, even if they fall down, there will be no mud sticking in their mustache!

    Recommend

  • let there be peace
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:50PM

    @Babloo:
    Also, Pakistan inherited all the wealth and property of Hindus and Sikhs who left Pakistan, who while were 25% of the population, owned more than 50% of wealth and property in W Pakistan before partition.

    That is a very interesting point sir.
    Any references/links? I would love to use that point in some argument.

    Recommend

  • Cynical
    Feb 21, 2012 - 6:59PM

    @Pak Tiger

    You keep harping ‘ muslims cannot own/buy properties in India’.
    Tell me where do Bollywood khans, ex president Prof Kalam,kashmir CM Omar Abdulla,cricketer Zaheer Khan….I can go on and on….etc. live? Surely not in hotels.

    Recommend

  • Rajendra Kalkhande
    Feb 21, 2012 - 7:06PM

    Watch this and hear what the most respected Pakistani cleric says about India and Indian Muslims;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfTQ5jfuBfg

    In Pakistan Muslims kill Muslims. India is the most secured nation for Muslims.

    Recommend

  • Rakib
    Feb 21, 2012 - 7:45PM

    @Cynical:

    He is probably talking of Adnan Sami’s property at Mumbai & of an earlier silly story of Shabana Azmi who began sulking & playing the minority card when the flat owner refused to sell his property to her or to any other “filmy” folk. This was the lady who was called a “Naachne-gaanewali” by a fellow Muslim-Shahi Imam Bukhari of Jami Masjid Delhi. He added one more word which I don’t want to repeat here. So much for respect to Muslim ladies by a Muslim! Identical case was of Mahesh Bhatt’s nephew Emraan Hashmi who later apologised for bluffing.

    However, some (not all) people do tend to stick to their own caste-creed-sect in the neighbourhood wherever possible & do not rent out or refuse to sell properties to “others”. Safety matters, and numbers are important. Then there are eating habits & taboos to be considered. Clannishness & ghettoisation is common among people of subcontinent. Even in Karachi entire areas are segregated among various ethnicities and among communities even within an ethnic/linguistic group and one hesitates to sell/rent property to an “outsider” even if all are Muslims.

    Recommend

  • Ram
    Feb 21, 2012 - 7:51PM

    @ gp65 and @ Rakib:
    Thank you for the sanity and substance. It’s getting annoying to see “patriots” and shrills talking nonsense and pouring vitriol here. Whether the writer is an intellectual or politician or Pakistani or Indian is hardly the matter. He has expressed his opinion and one only hopes that readers enter an enlightened and reflective discussion on his premise, right or wrong… I think Tribune could do a better job of moderation, as someone suggested. That said, I agree with the author’s premise and Rakib & gp65 have pretty much captured my opinion, so I wont’ repeat. Cheers!

    Recommend

  • Canadian Hindu
    Feb 21, 2012 - 9:31PM

    @PakTiger

    http://www.poverty.org.uk/06/index.shtml

    Poverty among Muslims minorities is not limited to India. Its a worldwide phenomena. In the UK, Its just shocking how much poorer Pakistanis are than their Indian counterparts. I think its a cultural thing, for Muslims religion is more important than wealth.

    From my own observations, In my area in Canada the number of Muslims living in low income housing is remarkable. Besides these rows of low income housing are large homes owned by Punjabi Indians.

    Its truly remarkable that in 1946 we were the same people and now we sit at opposite ends of the socio-economic ladder.

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 21, 2012 - 10:54PM

    @Indian.

    a ;Buy’ in that context doesn’t refer to buying as in purchasing!
    b Nobody said Indian Rail was not functional.

    You miss the point by ten miles -typical! The debate is not about India being non-functional (though some people have digressed) … the debate is that there is a Real India – which has many good things and many bad things; which is much like Pakistan – and there is the ‘make believe India’ that is showcased by Indians to mislead themselves and others … over and above they labour upon the point that everyone must be misled. There is a huge gap between the Real India and the ‘make belive’, ‘showcase’.

    When Indians can’t convince through argument and logic … they further lose the argument by losing their temper and becoming rude!Recommend

  • From Herat with Love
    Feb 21, 2012 - 10:59PM

    … stop quibbling and fighting … everybody …

    You all seem to waste a lot of energy and time on the internet, quarrelling away! If you all invested the same amount of energy and time working positively for your country … you would actually achieve something, and wouldn’t have to argue so much … and might be able to show something for yourselves …

    So, please stop and get back to work …

    Recommend

  • From Herat with Love
    Feb 21, 2012 - 11:15PM

    @Gentlemen:

    Please realise and appreciate that both, Afghanistan and Pakistan are facing a war … and in a war economies suffer … so, Pakistan economy has suffered in the last few 5-6 years …

    … the war is about to be over, and Pakistan will bounce back again … like any other country does after a war; particularly when it ends in that country’s favour …

    so, don’t panic and rest assured!

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 21, 2012 - 11:20PM

    @from herat! ur damn right!

    Recommend

  • wise counsel
    Feb 21, 2012 - 11:43PM

    @PakTiger:
    first you tell me where are all the hindus in pakistan gone?secondly,who says that muslims dont own property in india.Get ur facts straight buddy, it might have been some stray incodent where some one might have rejected due to personal reasons.India is a secular state and the rightful person owns.Want to see the properties of all actors , businessmen etc. of my muslim brethrens in India.You cant even dream of owning such properties in your own country

    Recommend

  • wise counsel
    Feb 21, 2012 - 11:45PM

    @From Herat with Love:
    how funny , and you guys hate america for being the policeman of the worldYou did no better.

    Recommend

  • Sheheryar
    Feb 22, 2012 - 12:06AM

    @Indian…. and, by the way do take a trip to Real India, whenever you have the opportunity to do so. Good Luck and Best Wishes.Recommend

  • From Herat with Love
    Feb 22, 2012 - 12:32AM

    @wise counsel. You guys are really ‘faarigh’, aren’t Ye?

    Recommend

  • Observer
    Feb 22, 2012 - 12:45AM

    Interesting, the author while listing all the negatives about India has actually made the case for Pakistan to look at the Indian model since the problems are the same as in Pakistan but India has probably some answers that Pakistan could use.

    Think of it this way, who can Pakistan most relate to – US? Europe? Middle East? China? – No…it is India…in terms of its unique problems and solutions that can work.

    The rest of the article makes little sense regarding the strengths India and Pakistan started off with post-partition. Except for leadership quality and experience there was not much of a difference in most respects.

    Recommend

  • Ali Tanoli
    Feb 22, 2012 - 4:13AM

    @Observer
    i agreed on your last comment sir

    Recommend

  • Bilal
    Feb 22, 2012 - 6:12AM

    @All Indians. With Due respect. please stop poking in your nose now, let us make some more mistakes so that we could learn how to hit hard on the board, Please stop telling us who you people are, every one of us knows about you ver well. Hope you dont fiond this offencive too. Thanks

    Recommend

  • Yama the Afghan
    Feb 22, 2012 - 6:21AM

    The view from Aer, Four Seasons Hotel bar in Mumbai on the 34th floor tells me that India has arrived and surpassed Pakistan by leaps and bounds. Pakistan is reactionary and mired in a corrupt system that stunts progress and development while India is progressive and innovative. As an Afghan I would emulate the Indian model over any other Asian model.

    Tal di we Afghanistan

    Jai Hind

    Recommend

  • PakTiger
    Feb 22, 2012 - 7:35AM

    @Yama…… have u seen a chameleon …..u better watch it…… u will find some similarities…… making fake ID’s wont make u an Afghani…!Recommend

More in Business