'New wine shops, conspiracy to destroy youth'

Well, I totally agree to the fact that opening 50 new wine shops in Karachi is unjustified, but the repeatedly highlighted part about the MINORITIES in Karachi is also unjust. We are living in a Muslim dominated state and alcoholism to such an extent is simply not something that would portrait us as a Proper Muslim State. Also, mentioning that the wine shops opened in Karachi and the owners who have been issued these licenses are mainly all MUSLIMS. You’d not find a Minority dealing in this business as frequent as the MAJORITY. So we should not just stress the part of the MINORITIES when the MAJORITY living in this state is directly involved in this business. It’s totally wrong to portrait a negative image about any one, be it MAJORITY or MINORITY..!!

And lastly, the govt. should take necessary steps to discontinue these business to such an extent.Recommend

The wine shops are for non-muslims. So why is the JI worried? Or do they fear that a bottle of wine will create more damage than Zardari and other fundamentalist organizations?Recommend

Loves the part about enraged masses setting the wine shops on fireRecommend

What about heroine, a product of Afghan JihadRecommend

The JI must have noticed that demand for the products sold by the “wines shops” is among the predominantly muslim areas. Surprise, surprise. Also, a rough demographic estimate would reveal that a very large segment of the “non-muslims” for which the liquor shops allegedly operate simply cannot afford their products. Dare i say, the consumers are almost wholly muslim?Recommend

Alcohol i banned in every religion, not even Christianity allows it, because of the health trouble and also the moral problems that are being caused by the people using it. Having said that, so are drugs and from health point of view cigarettes and sheesha (1 sheesha for 1 hr = 200 cigarettes).
So it all comes down to a persons own will. Every person is answerable to for what he do and how he do it and why he do whatever he wants to do. So I would say let them open as much as they want. Our youngsters have their elders. Its the duty of elders to be so close to their children that they listen to them rather than govt and wine shop people. PEACERecommend

again, the JI moralizing without looking into the mirror, you cannot prohibit people from doing things, there was prohibition in the United States which actually gave birth to the Mafia, Capone et al. The bootleggers won’t be too happy about this. By the way Hafiz sahab, anyone who has a glass of wine does not immediately turn into a ranting, raving alcoholic. There were bars and clubs in this country before Zia’s dark days it didn’t make people any less Muslim than todayRecommend

Right! As if it was so simple. Close a few shops then what will happen? People who want to drink will find a way to get it, whether legal or illegal. And what do they mean that “a conspiracy against our youth”, there is no shortage of grand oldies who tip a glass before they go to bed.Recommend

This is happening in Islamic Jamhooria Pakistan. better to change the name into something elseRecommend

I feel for the poor goats who will now be even more violated by the drunken Pakistani youth. Shame on this government, have they no shame?Recommend

Gutka and other betel nuts products causing cancer. Jamaat is silent…
Pollution from Rickshaw sound and environment they are not worried. They are double faced people.Recommend

JI has nothing more to do except screaming and ranting about this conspiracy and that conspiracy.Why don’t they speak and strive against corruption which is so rampant in our country?Recommend

Faizan is correct that the number of shops doesn’t change people choice to drink. Like Prohibition in the United Sates in the 1920s. We banned alcohol all together and the criminals took over its production and distribution. People simply drank in underground establishments called “speak easies”. Many think this period accelerated moral decay. I think if people are responsible, the lack of demand for these shops will decrease there numbers in the coming year. (Full disclosure I am an American wine maker)Recommend

and not agreeing with dealing with these shops violently, but this decision by the govt is utterly ridiculous. i think they want us to be soo drunk in this country’s misery that we the youth cant do anything about it in our drunken state. by that time we’l have too many problems of our own to think about a revolution!Recommend

Visit any private party or new year party.The amount of free flowing alchohol proves that there is a market for even 100 shops.so why suchan uproar??
And those who wish to abstain will do so even if there are 500 shops.Recommend

Its not surprising that the religious are up in arms about wine shops destroying the youth… after all, destroying the Youth is the religious organizations job… so its not the wine shops they cant stand, its the competition…Recommend

Here in the west, there are so many outlets for wine and other stuff. Such stuff is even sold in food stores. And yet, very few Muslims drink alcohol.
Freedom means the freedom of choice. If you take that away, you force people to a certain life style. that is suppression. Many Pakistanis are hooked to opium and other more damaging drugs. A normal consumption of wine is far less dangerous. In fact scientists claim that those who drink a glass of wine a day, have less chance of a heart attack. Studies have shown that in countries such as France and Italy, which are wind drinkers, the number of heart patients is minimal. I say, do not listen to conservatives, give people the choice. Alternatively ask those trying to flock to west for immigration, stay where you are. Here wine is part of life.Recommend

@ Chris
just for the sake of argument…

as you were referring to most Muslims …drink to get drunk and have not learned to drink in socially acceptable manner……ideally speaking it’s not suppose to be socially acceptable activity in a Muslim country…however your observation is correct, obviously this activity is for the entertainment purpose for above mentioned…i mean Alcohol or any drugs are in absolute Prohibition category… with their point of view it’s utterly absurd to be drinking socially….i.e. committing a sin without any joy in return ? never the less there is growing trend in Muslim families not necessarily the elite and super rich but even in middle class where drinking is quite a routine….socially !!Recommend

what about http://www.murreebrewery.com? does JI dare to poke their faces on this? the source maybe?Recommend

I suspect that the the arabic words “sukura” and “khamr” have slightly different connotations and labeling the entire alcohol family as haram is irrelevant. Alcohol is present in almost every food item, and what matters is that it has to be above a certain percentage to cause any effect. For e.g. Beer is considered halal in some muslim countries if drunk in small quantities as they cause no intoxication. The stress needs to be on intoxicants rather than blaming a particular intoxicant.

Charas and Bhang instantly knock you out, but no one talks about them in terms of halal or haram. Many JI students probably would be fond of such halal intoxicants. Mind you that it is next to impossible to get intoxicated while drinking less alcoholic beverages.

I live in the west and i rarely see crime or any other vice which is blamed on alcohol. Meanwhile in Pakistan, heroin and charas addicts openly commit crime by stealing mobile phones. Lets face it, being civilized has nothing really to do with alcohol.Recommend

I am writing from Malaysia, a country of devout muslims yet most tolerable to the multi-cultural society here. Most resuarants serve beer and other alcholic drinks and so does the airline. Same applies to adjoining Indonesia – world’s biggest Muslim country. The man on the street is unaffected and content. JI should quit the scene or rather focus on curbing “target killings”, “sectarian conflcits”, “inter-provincial racial issues”, “ethnic strife”, etc etc – afflicting the teaming millions. By the way, although they may be called “wine shops” they do not sell wine as such. They only sell local liquor – there is no winery in Pakistan. Soley a brewery and a distillery.Recommend

The Express Tribune website is great, but I don’t understand why there’s so much sub-standard journalism floating around. Stuff like this really ought to be in a personal blog or something. Just because what you’ve written interests you doesn’t mean it’s newsworthy.

Try the Newlsine website – recently found it but it’s really well-done from the layout to the content.

http://www.newslinemagazine.com/Recommend

For the record, I invite the JI and its affiliates to a debate that was aired on a Pakistani TV channel in which the late Maulana Israr and the venerable Justice (retd) Javed Iqbal concluded that consumption of alcohol is NOT banned in Islam.

As several commentators have correctly noted above, the fact is that there is a plethora of historical evidence that indicates that prohibition only increases the use of alcohol as was the case in the US at the turn of the 20th century. And as we well know from many reported cases in Pakistan, especially in the rural areas, that prohibition of alcohol leads to the sale of spurious varieties of alcohol, causing irreparable bodily harm and even death.

There are numerous Muslim countries including Turkey, Malaysia, Egypt, Nigeria, Indonesia, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Bangladesh, Dubai, Qatar, Kuwait, to name just a few where consumption of alcohol is permitted by law and it is perhaps fair to say that most of these countries operate in a higher moral orbit than Pakistan.

I believe that in keeping with the Islamic tradition, matters such as lifting the ban on sale of alcohol in Pakistan should find a place in an open and vigorous public discourse rather than in threats being rifled by one group or another.Recommend

Banning alcohol was the most cowardly step taken by ZA Bhutto in desperation under the PNA pressure and not because of his belief as he himself was an ardent drinker. Hypocrisy thy name is Pakistan. Then and Now -always!Recommend

What a typical knee-jerk response from the defenders of religion. The expected rejection of these laws and the veiled threat of violence are a typical hallmark of the JI and other religious organisations. Alcohol is freely available in this land of pure. Creating a licensed outlet allows taxes to be collected and by-passes bootleggers and smugglers trying to make a quick buck. Inciting violence for licensed alcohol outlets seem to be a more severe crime in the minds of bigots than karo-kari, rapes, parading naked women in towns, killing of innocent people in suicide bombings, wide-spread bribery and corruption, lynching people alive, mob justice and double standards. Why dont we hear loud pronouncements of retribution from these self-righteous parties with their pious spokespeople when a 14 year old girl gets raped in the slums of karachi and lahore ? Where are the threats from these bigots when the medieval landlords bury women alive on the mere suspicion of adultery, what about the thousands of innocent people who spend decades in prison without being convicted of crime, how about wage jihad to clean our streets of litter and rubbish, why dont they protest in the streets against the maiming and killing of thousands of innocent civilians by the murderous talibans – How pathetic and how so typical of these parties to ignore the elephant in the room and gain traction in the press by issuing these threats of violence. It is indeed a sad state of affairs in a nation when compassion, understanding, tolerance and inclusiveness gives way to self righteousness, violence and messages of hatred and threats against the state-imposed laws by these defenders of faith. Go and wage a war on the very visible ills of the country. Open your eyes to the pain and suffering that is endured by tens of millions of working and poor classes of this land who dont give two hoots about ‘wine-shops’, but then again that struggle for the rights of the oppressed and jihad to eradicate social ills wont make it to the front page of many local dailies.Recommend

even if ji is so outraged just tell them to post their guards and check the id cards of people who go to drink. if they are muslims dont allow them to drink. still a muslim always has a strong belief,real muslims that is.Recommend

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Karachi, do as the Karachiites do. If someone doesn’t like the idea of wine shops, they can push off to Lahore or Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa their kind likes to burn girls’ schools and CD-shops. Cheers!Recommend

Well said MAK, agree with you 100 percent — a cold beer and another one!Recommend

Sindh Govt. plz dont try to be over liberal. It’s special feast for the non-muslims even in their own countries. Becasue it’s evils are much greater than that of its benefits.
Plz dont tear apart your boundaries.Recommend

@Kill the Idealist and others,

How you get to be a ‘good’ Muslim (whatever that entails) is up to the individual him/her self…and to the dude who said should we legalize killing because people would do it regardless, you do realize that KILLING and having a beer or a bottle of wine are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT things. I will go slow so as not to tax your b-cells but one actually sees a person or group take another person or group’s life while the latter just involves an individual or group drinking a beverage.

Like I said, have a sense of perspective, YOU think alcohol is an undesirable thing then fair that is your point of view but other individuals dont have to agree with it nor does the majority have a right to legislate a lifestyle choice for them – the state should not concern itself with the private lives of its citizens

(Full disclosure – i dont even drink, just fed of the moralizing over everything, its claustrophobic)

and all these islamic republic of pakistan, we are muslims, this is haraam chants sound a bit like the ‘mine, mine’ brigade of seagulls from finding nemo.Recommend

I totally agree with MR. MAK you have so many things to agree or disagree,
in this world lots of other things are bad, like abusing, harass, raping, list go and go on. and add one more things JI never argue about he [PAN SHOP] in pakistan every one know about (GUTKA), IS ALL ABOUT VALUES AND ETHIC YOU ADOPT.Recommend

And Mr. Salaar, on what basis have you blandly stated that the kind of people who are against wine shops ‘like’ to burn girls’ schools and CD shops?Recommend

After all the comments i read, i found that “Every one hvae freedom of right to say anything excpest JI” !Recommend

Haris Chaudhry is my heroRecommend

Not Only Wine Shops but many other things are going wrong & Destroying Youth and Our Upcoming Youth Also :) So You Should Stop Them Also is that possible ask from your self.Recommend

And by the way its the media that destroys the youth, control the media, control the mind. Conspiracy to destory youth, this is all being done for money rather than your conspiracies. There no board meetings for how to get little kids addicted to alcohol, its purely businessRecommend

Umair – you are the typical stereotype of what is wrong with Pakistan. Islam was around when the alcohol outlets, discos and nightclubs were not banned until late 70s. Infact there were more good quality muslims in this land of pure back then than what they are now. Have you travelled outside Pakistan..? Go and see how muslims cope in India, Malaysia, Jordan, Syria, Indonesia, Algeria, Turkey and Dubai and countless other nations where you get ‘wine-shops’, nightclubs and bars. Religion is between you and the lord. And what the hell you are on about the red-light districts..? They are omnipresent in the land of pure. Havent you heard about the establishments in Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad , Hyderabad etc.? Surely, you could not be so naive.. Burning down the shops as you suggest is called ‘violence’. No one burns them in any muslim countries yet the muslims there seem to have no problems following their religion and god and praying 5 times without the threat of harrassment. Without these ‘wineshops’, we are apt at harrassing females in the markets and bus stops and everywhere we get the opportunity.. This happens mostly in Pakistan. I am yet to travel to any muslim or for that matter non muslim countries where women are ogled by men with such ferocity as I see in Pakistan. I am yet to see any other country where killings of ones own family members are condoned under the guise of honour. You must open your eyes to the reality and try to identify the ‘real’ reasons behind the degeneration of a society as ours rather than threatening to burn them. This mindset is the hallmark of a bigoted, intolerant and spiteful individual. Too many of you and we have a disaster on our hands – as we already do perhaps..Recommend

@ Umair

so will you start consuming alcohol if the wine shops open? or do you want to burn them down because you won’t be able to resist your temptation? their is no point of trying to act pure if you can’t say no to what’s wrong when it’s in your face. I personally don’t drink either, but I don’t judge people because they do, try and follow a more moderate line… if you want to stand up for islam, listen to its first and foremost message, a message that advocates peace, so learn to co exist with others peacefully and stop judging them for minor things.Recommend

chris:

Over my many years here I have noticed, when drinking particularly with Muslims, that they drink to get drunk, rather than drink as an adjunct to a social activity. The majority have not learned how to drink in a socially acceptable manner and quickly get beyond themselves. Not a pretty sight.

agree fully…this has been my observation too

those who drink will find the bootleggers wine shop or no wine shop!

even in gen. zina’s daur e jahiliya in karachi a uniformed major used to supply the ordered drinks

digression:

the govt. gets no tax revenues from bootlegged liquor…through the wine shops they do get it

and as someone suggested earlier…whether through wine shops or through other means…the supply never stopsRecommend

@ Waqqas: I agree that the junkies would be there regardless of legality. My point is not marijuana or heroin but the fact that there is a need for rules. Every country has a set of them. Making each of them an issue of ‘human rights violation’ or ‘freedom of expression’ would eventually make everything permissible – which should not be the case.Recommend

@ Haris Chaudry and others,

What you’ve pointed out is correct, that other muslim countries function perfectly. but look at pakistan, we are a society with plenty more evils rooted in, a nurse gets raped, a 4 year old gets raped and killed, so i think by allowing alcohol to flow freely is inviting even more evil. You spoke of dubai and malaysia examples of muslim countries where muslims are free to do indulge as they please but good muslims dont. agreed 100%.

But pakistan has alot more of the variety that nobody would categorise as good, and hence if those people start drinking, god knows what happens. your nation should be educated and humane enough to bear responsibility for its actions.
pakistan mein loag khullam khulla peenay pillanay lag gaye tou phir pata nahi kia ho!Recommend

Our society is too premature to handle such responsibility, before encouraging this act, think about the people who already suffer through the hands of the influential and connected class. Your law does not apply to them. Then add a 1000 more who will access these shops and perhaps indulge in lewd or dangerous behaviour.
Develop your society first to bring it par with your Dubai and Jordan examples, and then perhaps allow the the licenses. Look at what you’re arguing for atleast, another evil in the land of the evil!Recommend

@ Saira, yes every country has a set of rules but the more developed ones don’t have rules that blatantly legislate people’s social and personal lives unless they directly end up killing people – point taken on drunk driving, my view is that such prohibition increases rather than decreases crime and allows unscrupulous elements to earn money illegally without paying any taxes on the consumption of such items. Would be better served if the govt discouraged drinking by fines/jails for drunk driving and heavy taxation of alcoholRecommend

@ waqqas
Thats the problem, theres no one to jail the violators or implement the fines man. There is no law in our part of the world. We just have double standards.Recommend

@ anum
Throughout the 1950s, 60s and 70s, Pakistan had licensed alcohol outlets, bars, nightclubs and the like however there were no largely visible adverse social impacts during that time… Think about it and ask yourself why..?

Look at the crime statistics – we had far less violence, intolerance, discrimination, rapes and murders when the alcohol outlets were omnipresent compared to now, so what has changed and what affect alcohol has had on the outcome of visible social issues. Actually – none..

I have visited Pakistan often and guess what I notice the most.. ? On the front page of the largest cicrculating dailies are the advertisements from alcohol abuse clinics advertising their services – Now ask yourself this question: If there is wide enough alcohol abuse amongst certain section of the society to merit alcohol rehabilitation centres advertising their services to such a wide market in the absence of ‘wine-shops’, so how easily alcohol can get accessed by people who want to drink it ? I would say, really easily and what would change if there are new licensed outlets ? Probably not much.

Our current problems are not the result of presence or absence of alcohol outlets nor will they aggravate if there are more licensed outlets. The only effect it is going to have is that the government will start collecting taxes and cops wont get a take of it by catching people with alcohol.

Violence and skullduggery, self victimisation and blaming US, Europe and Israel for all our ills, refusing to accept responsibility and judging everyones else on the basis of their ‘religosity’ has created a double standard in the psyche of our nation. Those double standards are now embedded within us and are reflective in our personal character and the character of this nation.

Remember, alcohol in Pakistan is just a phone call away and probably more accessible then what non-drinkers might believe in and more expensive than if it was selling at licensed venues.Recommend

What 50 for Karachi and none for Lahore? Discrimination I say! Where’s my share of ‘conspiracy to corrupt youth’?Recommend

I wonder when people live in west, they have everything available open to public and everyone including Muslims have access to alcohol. Who wants to buy could go and buy it at their own will but if I think its not good for me or forbidden in my religion shouldn’t go and thats about it. Banning everything is not a solution. Regulating everything kills the whole purpose of democracy.Recommend

Umair and Saira should be held up as examples of what is really wrong with our youth today. They need a Vegas intervention, pronto.Recommend

I would like to thank the Tribune for introducing me to Haris Chaudry’s awesome insight and analytical skills regarding this whole mess.

I move for him to write for the Tribune. Not being paid to write this :-)Recommend

Wine leads to Crime
Do Not Drink Wine

This is only allowed in Heavens where a river of wine flowsRecommend

No one drinks wine in Pakistan. Most people drink whisky and bear. Why are the alcohol shops still called wine shops !!Recommend

Listen I don’t know about you guys, but what’s a Sunday without a beer.
Nobodys getting drunk or crunk. Nothings being violated.
As to the technical dilemna of the JI interfering, lets take a little peak inside the ‘wine-shop’ might i suggest to be called a ‘booze shop’. Our local booze shops, be it a 50 or 100, sell locally manufactured alcohol. Murree Brewery. Thanks to our drunk govt. and maybe the clandestinely drunk JI associates, went unnoticed of the fact that they better be hunting down on the roots if they have to get rid of what they pretend.
They choose to play with their favorite toy, reverse psychology. Turn it all on the poor people, who feel congested in this society, for consuming what it being liberally sold by the friends of the govt. and JI.
Thanks and April Fool to you too JI!Recommend

You guys really need to calm down with the preaching. Why is the concept of choice so terrifying to the religious? I thought religion was all about the choices you make, and you couldn’t have social laws dragging you into heaven. Why is it that the religious are always more interested in what other people are doing? Don’t like alcohol? Don’t buy it. But don’t turn it into another issue for you to rant and rave about. A country like pakistan has much bigger things to deal with, rampant poverty, political corruption, illiteracy, insurgents and a power crisis being just a few of them. But no, instead lets listen to the hatemongers at the JUI and lets get all worked up about people choosing to drink in the privacy of their own homes.Recommend

“You Without Sin Cast the First Stone” – The Last Temptation of Christ

I fully agree with the motion to have more than just the Muree variety (although very good) available to us corrupted and morally bankrupt heathens. Where are the bottles of Absolut’s, Smirnoff’s, Jack Daniel’s, Teacher’s, Starbucks liqueur (yes they make some VERY delicious coffee flavoured ones), Absinthe. Ahh yes.. they are probably bought by the rich landlords and govt. officials and they have them on tap I’m sure.

So be progressive, don’t talk about burning lest you be burned yourself.. The amount of growing frustrations our poor people go through FULLY justifies their indulgence in a little alcoholic relief if they so choose. No electricity for 8 hours? Prices of eggs, bread and daal’s have doubled? Had to wait for 2 hours on your bike in the searing heat while some bureaucrat’s motorcade was crossing the flyover?

Take a break my weary and frustrated masses of this nation! Don’t listen to cap-wearing, white bearded hypocrites.Recommend

Shame on Our Government and Responsible People… Pakistan is Islamic Country… X-(Recommend

No alcohol. This is a horrible idea.Recommend